Allopathic Residency

[stookie]

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How does a DO graduate obtain an allopathic residency? Would they have to take the USMLEs or do programs accept COMLEX scores? Can they pre match or do they have to use a matching service?

 

[dr.z]

You don't have to take USMLE to apply to allopathic residency. Most people will advise you to take it if applying to competitive specialty. For the allopathic residency, they participate in the Match.

 

[OSUdoc08]

How does a DO graduate obtain an allopathic residency? Would they have to take the USMLEs or do programs accept COMLEX scores? Can they pre match or do they have to use a matching service?

How does a DO graduate obtain an allopathic residency? Fill out the application.

Would they have to take the USMLEs or do programs accept COMLEX scores? Most take COMLEX; some require USMLE

Can they pre match or do they have to use a matching service? Sorry---you have to do the match

 

[TSisk23]

How does a DO graduate obtain an allopathic residency? Fill out the application.

Would they have to take the USMLEs or do programs accept COMLEX scores? Most take COMLEX; some require USMLE

Can they pre match or do they have to use a matching service? Sorry---you have to do the match

You seem to know a lot about this process so I'll ask you my question. The two matches are at seperate times correct? So my question is what if you do EM in both matches. Since I know the results for one comes before the other so if you match in the first one are you obligated or can you wait and see on the other match as well? Hope that is clear. Thanks

 

[OSUdoc08]

You seem to know a lot about this process so I'll ask you my question. The two matches are at seperate times correct? So my question is what if you do EM in both matches. Since I know the results for one comes before the other so if you match in the first one are you obligated or can you wait and see on the other match as well? Hope that is clear. Thanks

The AOA match is first. If you match with a program, you are legally bound to that program and are automatically withdrawn from the ACGME match.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

what osudoc is true..sadly it doesnt make any sense coming from a pre-med standpoint

 

[OSUdoc08]

what osudoc is true..sadly it doesnt make any sense coming from a pre-med standpoint

Allow me to explain:

If you were allowed to match into ACGME residencies first, then noone would go into AOA residencies, and they would be forced to shut down.

An ACGME residency is a year shorter for most areas, since they do not require the internship year.

This is the reason why they won't combine the match. It would be rare for someone to rank an AOA residency at the top of the list, and as a result, the AOA residencies would only get the poorest performing graduates that did not get accepted into ACGME residencies.

 

[TSisk23]

Allow me to explain:

If you were allowed to match into ACGME residencies first, then noone would go into AOA residencies, and they would be forced to shut down.

An ACGME residency is a year shorter for most areas, since they do not require the internship year.

This is the reason why they won't combine the match. It would be rare for someone to rank an AOA residency at the top of the list, and as a result, the AOA residencies would only get the poorest performing graduates that did not get accepted into ACGME residencies.

So those that match to allopathic residencies are basically risking not matching in order to try for those positions rather than doing the AOA match?

 

[OSUdoc08]

So those that match to allopathic residencies are basically risking not matching in order to try for those positions rather than doing the AOA match?

Correct.

 

[TSisk23]

Correct.

Sounds a tad risky unless you get a good vibe from a program. Maybe not I dunno.

 

[pem8erly]

Sounds a tad risky unless you get a good vibe from a program. Maybe not I dunno.

I think the consensus is that if you don't match into an allopathic residency, you can turn around and try to find an unfilled osteopathic spot. You might be choosing from the leftovers, but at least you'll have something for the year.

 

[BklynWill]

The answers in this thread are mostly correct. However, DO graduates can take advantage of a loop-hole where they can sign a contract for an ACGME (allopathic) residency before the ACGME match. This is technically legal but arguably unethical.

 

[BklynWill]

I think the consensus is that if you don't match into an allopathic residency, you can turn around and try to find an unfilled osteopathic spot. You might be choosing from the leftovers, but at least you'll have something for the year.

This might be hard to do as the time setting for this scenario is nearly one month after the DO match.

But we know that less and less DO residencies are being filled each year so spots may still remain open after one month.

 

[(nicedream)]

Allow me to explain:

If you were allowed to match into ACGME residencies first, then noone would go into AOA residencies, and they would be forced to shut down.

An ACGME residency is a year shorter for most areas, since they do not require the internship year.

This is the reason why they won't combine the match. It would be rare for someone to rank an AOA residency at the top of the list, and as a result, the AOA residencies would only get the poorest performing graduates that did not get accepted into ACGME residencies.

If the AOA would improve their GME, which is impossible since university hospitals are ACGME affiliated, the problem wouldn't exist. However, the AOA does not have much quality GME and so the only chance they have at getting residents is to force students in by having the separate match. It's basically like a gameshow where you can try for a thousand dollars, or just take the hundred.

 

[priu]

In what respects are the AOA GME programs "inferior?" I'm sure there are some quality ones out there, maybe if those quality ones are fewer than in the AGME.

If the AOA would improve their GME, which is impossible since university hospitals are ACGME affiliated, the problem wouldn't exist. However, the AOA does not have much quality GME and so the only chance they have at getting residents is to force students in by having the separate match. It's basically like a gameshow where you can try for a thousand dollars, or just take the hundred.

 

[(nicedream)]

In what respects are the AOA GME programs "inferior?" I'm sure there are some quality ones out there, maybe if those quality ones are fewer than in the AGME.

Some are supposedly good, but overall they are known as being rather disorganized and half-assed. Also, the vast vast majority are at community hospitals (I believe all except for the AOA IM/FP programs set up at allopathic institutions). Certainly can't paint all with the same brush, but if they are not inferior, why does the AOA feel the need to keep DOs from flocking to MD programs by maintaining the separate match? They obviously fear the competition.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Some are supposedly good, but overall they are known as being rather disorganized and half-assed. Also, the vast vast majority are at community hospitals (I believe all except for the AOA IM/FP programs set up at allopathic institutions) . Certainly can't paint all with the same brush, but if they are not inferior, why does the AOA feel the need to keep DOs from flocking to MD programs by maintaining the separate match? They obviously fear the competition.

Nope, a few more than IM & FP at osteopathic hospitals -->

Tulsa Regional Medical Center (an AOA hospital):

Internships:

Traditional
Family Practice
Anesthesiology
Diagnostic Radiology
Emergency Medicine
General Surgery
Internal Medicine
Obstetrics/Gynecology
Otolaryngology/Facial Plastic Surgery
Pediatrics
Ophthalmology

Residencies/Fellowships:

Anesthesiology
Cardiology
Diagnostic Radiology
Emergency Medicine
General Surgery
Internal Medicine
Interventional Radiology
Interventional Cardiology
Obstetrics/Gynecology
Orthopedic Surgery
Otolaryngology/Facial Plastic Surgery
Ophthamology
Pediatrics
Nephrology

 

[(nicedream)]

Tulsa Regional Medical Center (an AOA hospital):

Isn't that a university-affiliated community hospital?

 

[Thousandth]

Some are supposedly good, but overall they are known as being rather disorganized and half-assed. Also, the vast vast majority are at community hospitals (I believe all except for the AOA IM/FP programs set up at allopathic institutions). Certainly can't paint all with the same brush, but if they are not inferior, why does the AOA feel the need to keep DOs from flocking to MD programs by maintaining the separate match? They obviously fear the competition.

Where are you getting your info? There are plenty of dually accredited residencies AOA/ACGME. These are DO residencies and yet they take MD students as well. I guess that would speak poorly of the residencies, the ACGME just accredites anyone who wants a residency right? Anyway, Your arguments are full of holes. There are a large number of ACGME residencies at community hospitals with absolutley no University affiliation. Does this mean that they are all poor quality?

As far as the AOA forcing people into their residencies, they do nothing of the kind. What they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot. As it stands any DO who wants to can apply for ACGME spots. Due to the seperate match and the rule that if a DO (who participates in both matches) matches to DO residency then they are pulled from the ACGME match. This causes all DO's who desire to go to ACGME progams to fore go the DO match entirely. Hence less applicants to DO programs. And just to preemt any disscusion why they do, the overiding reason is LOCATION. There just arent enough DO spots in places where people want to live. Another issue is the lack of a couples match for DO's.

Are there poor DO residencies...Sure. Are there poor MD residencies...Yes.

 

[(nicedream)]

Where are you getting your info? There are plenty of dually accredited residencies AOA/ACGME. These are DO residencies and yet they take MD students as well. I guess that would speak poorly of the residencies, the ACGME just accredites anyone who wants a residency right? Anyway, Your arguments are full of holes. There are a large number of ACGME residencies at community hospitals with absolutley no University affiliation. Does this mean that they are all poor quality?

As far as the AOA forcing people into their residencies, they do nothing of the kind. What they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot. As it stands any DO who wants to can apply for ACGME spots. Due to the seperate match and the rule that if a DO (who participates in both matches) matches to DO residency then they are pulled from the ACGME match. This causes all DO's who desire to go to ACGME progams to fore go the DO match entirely. Hence less applicants to DO programs. And just to preemt any disscusion why they do, the overiding reason is LOCATION. There just arent enough DO spots in places where people want to live. Another issue is the lack of a couples match for DO's.

Are there poor DO residencies...Sure. Are there poor MD residencies...Yes.

Uh....
1. When did I say anything about dual accreditation or lack thereof?
2. You obviously don't know what you're talking about because there is no such thing as a "DO residency that takes MDs." The dual-accredited programs (all of which except 5 are in primary care) are MD programs that the AOA has approved for osteopathic board certification.
3. Yes, the allopathic community hospital programs are considered, with some exceptions, to be inferior to the university programs.

Vis-a-vis the AOA forcing people into their programs with the separate match - for one, I was suggesting that was their intention; that should be clear to you. Your statement that "all DOs who desire to go to ACGME programs forego the AOA match completely" could not be further from the truth. If they want primary care, sure - they're almost guaranteed an ACGME spot. If they're going for specialties, it DOES force them to do the AOA match or else take a big risk by skipping it (thus my analagy of the gameshow).

The overriding reason for ACGME programs' popularity vs. AOA ones being location? Bull****. You telling me Harvard is popular because it's in Massachusetts? Given the choice between a name-brand univeristy program and East Podunk Hospital, anyone with any ambition will choose the former.

 

[priu]

Good point. People have to start accepting at least a few negatives for what they are if we want change for the better.

Uh....

The overriding reason for ACGME programs' popularity vs. AOA ones being location? Bull****. You telling me Harvard is popular because it's in Massachusetts? Given the choice between a name-brand univeristy program and East Podunk Hospital, anyone with any ambition will choose the former.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Isn't that a university-affiliated community hospital?

Correct.

 

[Thousandth]

Uh....
1. When did I say anything about dual accreditation or lack thereof?
2. You obviously don't know what you're talking about because there is no such thing as a "DO residency that takes MDs." The dual-accredited programs (all of which except 5 are in primary care) are MD programs that the AOA has approved for osteopathic board certification.
3. Yes, the allopathic community hospital programs are considered, with some exceptions, to be inferior to the university programs.

Vis-a-vis the AOA forcing people into their programs with the separate match - for one, I was suggesting that was their intention; that should be clear to you. Your statement that "all DOs who desire to go to ACGME programs forego the AOA match completely" could not be further from the truth. If they want primary care, sure - they're almost guaranteed an ACGME spot. If they're going for specialties, it DOES force them to do the AOA match or else take a big risk by skipping it (thus my analagy of the gameshow).

The overriding reason for ACGME programs' popularity vs. AOA ones being location? Bull****. You telling me Harvard is popular because it's in Massachusetts? Given the choice between a name-brand univeristy program and East Podunk Hospital, anyone with any ambition will choose the former.

As far as dual accreditation goes they have reserved slots specifically for the DO match. Therefore DO residency. And I would like to know where you get your numbers? I know of 3 EM programs off the top of my head that are dual, are you saying that for every other specialty (except primary care) there are only 2 other duals?

Again with the match were are you getting your info? this past year 1500 DO's participated in the MD match..thats almost half of the graduating class. Of those 497 did not match. This means that ALL who participated did not either A) participate in DO match or B) did not match into a DO residency first (Highly unlikley!). Game show yes, forced no. And I did state that it is a bad setup that people are trying to change.

You can find sources that repeatedly state that the number 1 reason for selecting a residency is location. Thats for MD or DO, period. A significant portion of DO residencys are in the midwest. Not every DO student wants to live there, therfore they have to go the ACGME route due to a lack of options.

I wasnt comparing the world renound top name institutions to DO programs. I was comparing residencies across the board. Of course people will want to go to a top name school ( though this doesnt mean that they will be any better of a doctor when they are done, but that is a different issue) but that applies to MD and DO students equally. You insinuate that the only reason, or at least the major one, that DO's apply to MD residencies is percieved quality/name recognition. This simply isnt true.

 

[Echinoidea]

You insinuate that the only reason, or at least the major one, that DO's apply to MD residencies is percieved quality/name recognition. This simply isnt true.

I beg to differ. I can tell you right now, as a MS2, I do in fact perceive osteopathic GME to be overall less in quality than allopathic. And that, (along with not wanting to do an internship year) will keep me from applying to DO residencies.

Location, (or lack thereof in the Northeast) also is a big factor. When you put all three together, I really, really do not want to do an osteopathic residency.

 

[Thousandth]

I beg to differ. I can tell you right now, as a MS2, I do in fact perceive osteopathic GME to be overall less in quality than allopathic. And that, (along with not wanting to do an internship year) will keep me from applying to DO residencies.

Location, (or lack thereof in the Northeast) also is a big factor. When you put all three together, I really, really do not want to do an osteopathic residency.

Unless I am mistaken your statment supports my point that location with lack of options is a "big factor". I agree with you that the internship year is also an issue against a DO residency. I am not saying that perception of quality doesnt factor into it. It factors into everyones (DO or MD) decisions. I am just saying that the big factor is location, which usually includes personal factors such as family, personal life outside hospital etc. etc.

 

[pink]

I am interviewing at both DO and MD programs for Anesthesia. My plan as of now is to only rank the DO programs that I really like. Then if I don't match, I'll just wait for the MD match. Then, I guess, if I don't match there I will just have to scramble. That's where it gets tricky....Do I scramble for DO internships or MD spots that are unfilled? I'm a little confused at that point......Is anybody else in a similar situation? Osteopathic students really have to develop quite a game plan when it comes to the match(es)!!! 🙂

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I am interviewing at both DO and MD programs for Anesthesia. My plan as of now is to only rank the DO programs that I really like. Then if I don't match, I'll just wait for the MD match. Then, I guess, if I don't match there I will just have to scramble. That's where it gets tricky....Do I scramble for DO internships or MD spots that are unfilled? I'm a little confused at that point......Is anybody else in a similar situation? Osteopathic students really have to develop quite a game plan when it comes to the match(es)!!! 🙂

Forget the DO programs, ACGME programs are the only way to go in gas.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Forget the DO programs, ACGME programs are the only way to go in gas.

Why?

I don't see why you would be qualified any differently if you went through the AOA program.

 

[(nicedream)]

Correct.

Right, so I was correct in saying that essentially all AOA programs are at community hospitals, other than ones at allopathic institutions.

 

[(nicedream)]

As far as dual accreditation goes they have reserved slots specifically for the DO match. Therefore DO residency. And I would like to know where you get your numbers? I know of 3 EM programs off the top of my head that are dual, are you saying that for every other specialty (except primary care) there are only 2 other duals?

Again with the match were are you getting your info? this past year 1500 DO's participated in the MD match..thats almost half of the graduating class. Of those 497 did not match. This means that ALL who participated did not either A) participate in DO match or B) did not match into a DO residency first (Highly unlikley!). Game show yes, forced no. And I did state that it is a bad setup that people are trying to change.

You can find sources that repeatedly state that the number 1 reason for selecting a residency is location. Thats for MD or DO, period. A significant portion of DO residencys are in the midwest. Not every DO student wants to live there, therfore they have to go the ACGME route due to a lack of options.

I wasnt comparing the world renound top name institutions to DO programs. I was comparing residencies across the board. Of course people will want to go to a top name school ( though this doesnt mean that they will be any better of a doctor when they are done, but that is a different issue) but that applies to MD and DO students equally. You insinuate that the only reason, or at least the major one, that DO's apply to MD residencies is percieved quality/name recognition. This simply isnt true.

1500 DOs participated, and how many "withdrew", as in matched AOA first and were withdraw against their will? I don't have the # in front of me, but you can find it somewhere and it is high. The 497 who did not match, that is a very high # as well - all of whom would have benefited from a combined match.

For dual-accredited programs, yes, I did a quick scan of the AOA opportunities search engine and I believe all were primary care but 5 (I think 3 EM, 1 rad onc, and 1 something else). That's not surprising - the ACGME has to bring in DOs to fill the programs MDs don't want, but they certainly don't need DOs to fill specialty slots that are in demand.

As for the prestige issue, it's not just the top ACGME programs. Even lower tier ACGME programs are preferred to AOA programs - location aside (Temple over Mercy Suburban, Thomas Jefferson over Memorial, Penn St over Pinnacle Health Community).

 

[OSUdoc08]

Right, so I was correct in saying that essentially all AOA programs are at community hospitals, other than ones at allopathic institutions.

Define community hospital. TRMC is an urban area.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm confused about the university vs. community hospital thing, too. I thought TRMC would be a university hospital because it's affiliated with OSUCOM. I thought community residency programs were ones without a university affiliation, or with a weak university affiliation. For example, the hospital I volunteer at has a residency program but is not part of any school, so it's a community program, right? It's urban -- I don't urban vs. rural is the issue. However, I guess that could factor in. OHSU has a program called Cascades East in Klamath Falls, which I think would qualify as a community program.

Anyway, I'm curious.

As for this whole discussion, is there anyone here who feels like they did not or will not get a residency they want because they went to an osteopathic school? We know that AOA residencies are generally perceived to be inferior, but it doesn't seem to be hard to get allopathic residencies. Also, why does it matter if your residency is less prestigious if you don't want to do a fellowship? Will an anesthesiologist with an AOA residency have a notably harder time finding a job than an anesthesiologist with an allopathic residency?

 

[Chief Resident]

We know that AOA residencies are generally perceived to be inferior, but it doesn't seem to be hard to get allopathic residencies.

Is this perceived inferiority of osteopathic residencies why so many DOs jump ship and opt for allopathic residencies?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I'm confused about the university vs. community hospital thing, too. I thought TRMC would be a university hospital because it's affiliated with OSUCOM. I thought community residency programs were ones without a university affiliation, or with a weak university affiliation. For example, the hospital I volunteer at has a residency program but is not part of any school, so it's a community program, right? It's urban -- I don't urban vs. rural is the issue. However, I guess that could factor in. OHSU has a program called Cascades East in Klamath Falls, which I think would qualify as a community program.

Anyway, I'm curious.

As for this whole discussion, is there anyone here who feels like they did not or will not get a residency they want because they went to an osteopathic school? We know that AOA residencies are generally perceived to be inferior, but it doesn't seem to be hard to get allopathic residencies. Also, why does it matter if your residency is less prestigious if you don't want to do a fellowship? Will an anesthesiologist with an AOA residency have a notably harder time finding a job than an anesthesiologist with an allopathic residency?

Allow me to explain to you why I have better opportunities for residencies as a DO than as an MD in my area.

I plan on doing my residency in areas close to Texas or Oklahoma. This limits me to about 4 ACGME residency programs and 4 AOA residency programs for the specialty of emergency medicine.

In the area, there are 9-10 allopathic schools competing for those 4 ACGME residencies.

As far as the AOA residencies are concerned, there are 3 local osteopathic schools, but 3 of the 4 residencies are affiliated with my school, and an extremely high percentage of graduates from my school get those spots.

In addition, considering that some of the osteopathic students will enter the ACGME programs, I am much more guaranteed a position in the AOA programs than the ACGME programs.

One might make the assumption that all of the ACGME programs are better than all of the AOA programs, but this is simply not true. If you were to pay a visit to these various programs like I have, then you would find this out first hand.

This is just my story, but it is an example nevertheless.

For the record, all of the AOA residencies mentioned are in urban areas.

 

[(nicedream)]

For the record, all of the AOA residencies are in urban areas.

That's certainly not true. I can only speak of the ones in my home-state, but they are extremely suburban.

 

[(nicedream)]

I'm confused about the university vs. community hospital thing, too. I thought TRMC would be a university hospital because it's affiliated with OSUCOM. I thought community residency programs were ones without a university affiliation, or with a weak university affiliation. For example, the hospital I volunteer at has a residency program but is not part of any school, so it's a community program, right? It's urban -- I don't urban vs. rural is the issue. However, I guess that could factor in. OHSU has a program called Cascades East in Klamath Falls, which I think would qualify as a community program.

Anyway, I'm curious.

As for this whole discussion, is there anyone here who feels like they did not or will not get a residency they want because they went to an osteopathic school? We know that AOA residencies are generally perceived to be inferior, but it doesn't seem to be hard to get allopathic residencies. Also, why does it matter if your residency is less prestigious if you don't want to do a fellowship? Will an anesthesiologist with an AOA residency have a notably harder time finding a job than an anesthesiologist with an allopathic residency?

I don't know the specifics on how they classify university vs. community - however, FREIDA categorizes each teaching hospital in this respect.
It is hard to get ACGME residencies in certain fields as a DO. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board (basically any non-primary care or anesthesiology).

As for prestige - implicit in the desire for prestige is lack of a need for any utility in it. Sure, it helps you land fellowships, and jobs in many cases. It also just looks good on your resume, your wall, and rolling off your tongue. It could also be argued that prestige is earned by institutions- reputation means something.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That's certainly not true. I can only speak of the ones in my home-state, but they are extremely suburban.

Read the entire post. I was referring to those mentioned in said post.

 

[(nicedream)]

Read the entire post. I was referring to those mentioned in said post.

Haha, nice edit.

 

[VentdependenT]

Is this perceived inferiority of osteopathic residencies why so many DOs jump ship and opt for allopathic residencies?

How can you compare the small community hospital with a massive tertiary academic center. I'm sure the folks comming from the DO programs can run a fine anesthetic but I doubt they see the sort of cases (transplants for example) and frequent trainwrecks (lots of ASA 4's) which gravitate to large universities with much repetition.

If the programs marketed themselves better then perhaps there wouldn't be any perceived weakness. Unless that happens I'm going to nix em from potential applicants first options lists. Allo is the way to go.

 

[DermpathDO]

[
"You obviously don't know what you're talking about because there is no such thing as a "DO residency that takes MDs." The dual-accredited programs (all of which except 5 are in primary care) are MD programs that the AOA has approved for osteopathic board certification."

Hate to shoot you in your obviously biased foot..but there is a dual accredited Pysch residency program at Kennedy Memorial /UMDNJ-SOM in Stratford New Jersey. The program is a D.O. program which sought and recieved ACGME approval and now has at least one slot for an MD Psych resident.

 

[(nicedream)]

[
"You obviously don't know what you're talking about because there is no such thing as a "DO residency that takes MDs." The dual-accredited programs (all of which except 5 are in primary care) are MD programs that the AOA has approved for osteopathic board certification."

Hate to shoot you in your obviously biased foot..but there is a dual accredited Pysch residency program at Kennedy Memorial /UMDNJ-SOM in Stratford New Jersey. The program is a D.O. program which sought and recieved ACGME approval and now has at least one slot for an MD Psych resident.

Okay - highly unusual and obviously an exception to the rule. The post I was replying to suggested that there was an abundance of such programs.