Almost done and lost

[Cold Front]

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Yes, but spending 2+ more years of your life to specialize is a large hit on time. As I've said time and time again, if you live to be 50, that's 4% of your life out the door..

The winner in these type of situations are the schools/residency programs. They charge 200-300k to train residents and they reap the full benefit of residents doing all the dentistry for them, which amounts to more $1M+ for experienced general dentist to be in that program over 2 years. The more experienced you are, the more $$$ for the program. It’s such an opportunistic deal on the school’s part. Yes, you can argue the school has to pay the faculty and associated cost, but is that really valued $1.5M per resident (if you include the revenue the residents generate from the clinics)? The residents share a handful of faculty and there is always endless supply of cases from the pre-doc programs. So, if an Endo program has 4-6 students, that generates $6-10M per class, and since the program has year 1 and 2 residents, that’s $12-20M per year. The schools have a free reign on all the numbers, and unfortunately most dentists are too naive to understand how dentistry is being pocketed by their own guardians.

 

[charlestweed]

Yes, but spending 2+ more years of your life to specialize is a large hit on time. As I've said time and time again, if you live to be 50, that's 4% of your life out the door. Incurring more debt when you're already producing a relatively good amount of money in hopes that your average income increase compensates for the amount of time used and debt acquired.

If someone finds the need to specialize but wants to determine whether it's financially worth the gamble, I'd use the following parameters:

Find which percentile you're producing at as your time as a GP. This parameter will serve to determine what percentile you may produce as a specialist, assuming that your percentile ranking is based on speed/skill/business skills/luck. Second, determine the opportunity cost: Lost income over x years of specializing+ tuition/debt acquired (or if able to pay, lost interest/business income). Third, how many years do you plan to practice times the percentile income ranges of that specialty (If you were producing at the 75th percentile over the average of your years of working, you could assume you would do the same in that percentile as a function of years working).

Or, lets simplify the decision making process more... how much more money per year do you expect to make as a specialist? Does the amount of years you plan to work times the additional money per year outweigh the tuition/lost income and how long will it take to make the money back? What is the ROI of your additional training and educational expenses?

In my situation, there is no way I'd give up my GP position to specialize. I could not regain the money back in a timely manner to retire early.

I agree with you that time is important. The sooner you start working and making money, the sooner you can retire. Some parents want to hold their kids back from school an extra year because they want the kids to be more mature. But for us, Asian “tiger” parents, we always encourage our kids, nieces, nephews to skip a grade, finish HS before their 18th birthday, and apply to fast track 6-yr BS/DDS and 7-yr BS/MD programs.

However, not all dentists are fast and have good business skills like you. Some dentists don’t have good enough clinical and multitask skills that allow them to get good associate jobs that pay them $2-300k/year. I know plenty of 5+ year veteran dentists, who are still very slow (according to the corp assistants who assisted them). One can be a slow endodontist, who spends 1.5+ hour to do each molar endo, and still makes more money than an average GP. That’s because he/she does highly paid procedures all day long….he/she doesn’t need to do time consuming procedures that don’t pay well (such as fillings, placing sealants, cleanings, making dentures etc).

My friend had practiced general dentistry for 7 years before he decided to go back to school to specialize in ortho. His GP income wasn’t good because of his chronic back problem that prevented him from working long hours. He’s now a happy orthodontist and he works for the same corp office that I also work for.

I only had 1 year of general dentistry experience so I don’t really know if I would be a good and fast GP or not. I remember when I worked as a general dentist, I was terrible at extracting teeth and doing molar endo. If I continued to work as a GP, I think in order for me to accumulate the same amount of wealth that I have accumulated so far, I would have to work at 3-4 times harder than what I’ve been doing...this means that I would have to work 60-80 days/month…..but there are only 30 days in a month. And I am not sure if my hands and back would survive from working so many days.

 

[TanMan]

I agree with you that time is important. The sooner you start working and making money, the sooner you can retire. Some parents want to hold their kids back from school an extra year because they want the kids to be more mature. But for us, Asian “tiger” parents, we always encourage our kids, nieces, nephews to skip a grade, finish HS before their 18th birthday, and apply to fast track 6-yr BS/DDS and 7-yr BS/MD programs.

However, not all dentists are fast and have good business skills like you. Some dentists don’t have good enough clinical and multitask skills that allow them to get good associate jobs that pay them $2-300k/year. I know plenty of 5+ year veteran dentists, who are still very slow (according to the corp assistants who assisted them). One can be a slow endodontist, who spends 1.5+ hour to do each molar endo, and still makes more money than an average GP. That’s because he/she does highly paid procedures all day long….he/she doesn’t need to do time consuming procedures that don’t pay well (such as fillings, placing sealants, cleanings, making dentures etc).

My friend had practiced general dentistry for 7 years before he decided to go back to school to specialize in ortho. His GP income wasn’t good because of his chronic back problem that prevented him from working long hours. He’s now a happy orthodontist and he works for the same corp office that I also work for.

I only had 1 year of general dentistry experience so I don’t really know if I would be a good and fast GP or not. I remember when I worked as a general dentist, I was terrible at extracting teeth and doing molar endo. If I continued to work as a GP, I think in order for me to accumulate the same amount of wealth that I have accumulated so far, I would have to work at 3-4 times harder than what I’ve been doing...this means that I would have to work 60-80 days/month…..but there are only 30 days in a month. And I am not sure if my hands and back would survive from working so many days.

If they were that slow in clinical practice, the reduction in patient volume and increased fees could compensate for the lack of speed. However, the big question still exists on the traditional and corporate model of specialist practice. In a corporate model, are specialists require to churn out procedures at a high speed? I thought they would have the specialist come once a week or two and condense all those patients into one day per office per week. If the person was still slow in specialty clinical practice, they would not be able to handle the volume given to them. Perhaps, in a solo/group specialty practice, time is less of a factor, but profitability is still limited by the lack of speed.

Would going into a specialty make someone faster as a specialty clinician if they were slow as a GP clinician or are they going to remain slow as they were before. If they couldn't make it as a GP businessperson, would they fare any better as a specialist businessperson? Or is the chance of increased income in the context of remaining as an associate?

 

[2TH MVR]

All the different view points with no single right answer. Some want to work x number of years and retire. Others want to fast track their children into earning money sooner so they can retire sooner. Should I specialize since I suck at dentistry. Should I specialize since I suck at dental business. Lost income opportunity.

I may be the lone person here, but I don't buy into any of this "time management" of life events. No one can predict a person's life or when the inevitable will happen. Yes ... you need to work hard and have a plan. But I remind myself every day that ... what is occurring NOW is what is important AT THAT MOMENT. I can only control what is happening NOW .... not in the future.

To be clear ... I'm not suggesting that a person take on huge DS debt to become an Endo (or other specialist) only to be debt ridden for their remaining years. But if a person likes endo, and can attend a reasonable residency .... then all the power to that person. It's not always about lost income and retiring early. It's about LIFE in the present.

It's not always about the money and toys. I used to think that way also. But when I turned 50 .... I realized that quality of life in the present is more important. Don't get me wrong. Money obviously makes life easier and provides more life choices.

Some of you talk about lost opportunity in terms of $$$$. I would opine that some of you have incurred lost opportunity in the time department. Time with your spouse. Time with your family. Time for yourself.

Geez. I'm starting to sound like a 56 year old millennial lol.

 

[Cold Front]

Some of you talk about lost opportunity in terms of $$$$. I would opine that some of you have incurred lost opportunity in the time department. Time with your spouse. Time with your family. Time for yourself.

100% true. BUT we are discussing time opportunity in practicing general dentistry for few years then going back to school to specialize for someone in their 30s and above. Time with spouse, family and yourself can’t be measured in terms of “FIXED” time as in work or school. Such time with loved ones happens over life and are always a component of our day to day or week to week schedules and doesn’t usually come with a longer period of hiatus involved, and it can’t be measured in monetary terms - unlike investing money/debt in yourself and time in your job which have much more finite timeline with a “FIXED” schedule. Today, I’m spending my morning and evening with my wife, and my parents and siblings in the afternoon. I do this almost every Sunday. Can I spend more time with my wife and my parents? Sure, but I will not be more productive than I already am - but going back to school for few years for me would be big disruption for time with loved ones and finances, specially when I’m already making $200k and can take weekend CE courses and boost my income as I move further along in general dentistry.

 

[TanMan]

All the different view points with no single right answer. Some want to work x number of years and retire. Others want to fast track their children into earning money sooner so they can retire sooner. Should I specialize since I suck at dentistry. Should I specialize since I suck at dental business. Lost income opportunity.

I may be the lone person here, but I don't buy into any of this "time management" of life events. No one can predict a person's life or when the inevitable will happen. Yes ... you need to work hard and have a plan. But I remind myself every day that ... what is occurring NOW is what is important AT THAT MOMENT. I can only control what is happening NOW .... not in the future.

To be clear ... I'm not suggesting that a person take on huge DS debt to become an Endo (or other specialist) only to be debt ridden for their remaining years. But if a person likes endo, and can attend a reasonable residency .... then all the power to that person. It's not always about lost income and retiring early. It's about LIFE in the present.

It's not always about the money and toys. I used to think that way also. But when I turned 50 .... I realized that quality of life in the present is more important. Don't get me wrong. Money obviously makes life easier and provides more life choices.

Some of you talk about lost opportunity in terms of $$$$. I would opine that some of you have incurred lost opportunity in the time department. Time with your spouse. Time with your family. Time for yourself.

Geez. I'm starting to sound like a 56 year old millennial lol.

I agree partly on that you cannot predict what's going to happen in the far distant future, but I believe we do have some control, just not full control. There is one certain thing about life... you're going to die at some point. The older your get, the more likely you will die. We are essentially aging, accumulating mutations and shortening telomeres as we get older. Under the assumption that you don't know when you're going to die, doesn't it make sense to maximize your life productivity so that you can live the rest of your life without worrying about surviving? I see that as the purpose of working as much as possible, maximizing every opportunity to make money so I can get to the point where I don't care about money anymore. There is a point where working additional when you have all the money you need/want is futile, as your means (making money) has become the end (lost purpose).

Time management is important due to our own mortality. We need money to survive. Take that out of the equation and you are truly free to do whatever you want. Work hard so that you have a lifetime with your friends/family until you get sick of being around them. Grandparents are an example of this. My mom can only tolerate her grandkids for so long until she gets bored/annoyed. I think it's the same with many grandparents. They can give the child back when they are done having fun. Not so much when you are the parent responsible for the child. Anyway, I digress.

How does this relate to going into a specialty? Specialty requires time and debt. More time used, more money needed for debt means less life to live to do all the things that you love to do. Maybe I'm jaded, but I see this as one large equation, and specializing for me just makes no sense when I look at the variables. There are some people where their parameters would indicate some logic in specializing. (See above sentence and posts)

 

[charlestweed]

If they were that slow in clinical practice, the reduction in patient volume and increased fees could compensate for the lack of speed. However, the big question still exists on the traditional and corporate model of specialist practice. In a corporate model, are specialists require to churn out procedures at a high speed? I thought they would have the specialist come once a week or two and condense all those patients into one day per office per week. If the person was still slow in specialty clinical practice, they would not be able to handle the volume given to them. Perhaps, in a solo/group specialty practice, time is less of a factor, but profitability is still limited by the lack of speed.

Would going into a specialty make someone faster as a specialty clinician if they were slow as a GP clinician or are they going to remain slow as they were before. If they couldn't make it as a GP businessperson, would they fare any better as a specialist businessperson? Or is the chance of increased income in the context of remaining as an associate?

Most of the endos I know don't work for the corp offices. Not a lot of corp offices hire endos. They work part time at their own offices and they travel to work at multiple GP offices the other days of the week to supplement their incomes. And the GP owners usually don't care about speed. The GP owner gets 50%, the in-house endo gets 50%...and they are both happy.

If this endo thing doesn't work out, he can always go back to his old job and works as a general dentist. Or he can work partime as an endodontist and part time as a general dentist. Think of this bad decision as wasting $200-300k to purchase a wrong dental practice or to set up a practice in a wrong location. If the guy is young enough (ie in his early to mid 30s), he still has plenty of time to work hard to make up for such mistake.

 

[charlestweed]

I continue to work hard now because I have kids to support....and because I can't predict the future: how long I will live and how long I can continue to make good money as an orthodontist. Because of the weath that I have worked hard to accumlate over the last 15+ years, I worry less about things like unemployment, SmileCare Direct Club, Invisalign, more GPs who start doing orthos, increase in number of new ortho programs that pump out more new grads etc. With enough saving, I worry less about having a serious life-threatening illness in the near future that will prevent me from supporting my wife and kids. I will only stop working hard until I know my kids will be able to support themselves (ie when they get accepted to a professional school). I have disability and life insurances but these are not enough. Kids are expensive. Seeing kids having a good life, going to good school has motivated me to work harder. I work hard (it's actually not that hard because ortho is an easy job) so my wife doesn't have to.....so she can spend more time teaching our kids. To me, working extra hard in dental school, which allowed me to earn good enough grade to get accepted to an ortho program, was totally worth it.

I have always been a strong advocate of studying hard in school and finishing school early. When you start working early and happen to make some serious financial mistakes (ie spending $2-300k to set up an office that fails to make money or giving up $200k job to go back to school to specialize in endo), you will have more years left in your life to correct those mistakes. I wouldn't want to end up being like some of my 60+ yo colleagues who still have to work very hard earn back the money that they lost for making bad financial decisions earlier in their lives.

 

[charlestweed]

you had to do a gpr due to not getting into an ortho program the first time around right?

I got accepted to ortho the first time....I'll send you a PM message to explain why I had to do a year of GPR.

 

[Cold Front]

the most important financial decision a new grad can make has less to do with dentistry (eg setting up a new office or going back to residency) but more about finding the right spouse

Finding the right spouse is a universal challenge and not just specific to dentists. But I see your point - when it comes to dentists or similar profession, the right spouse can be a bigger challenge. The good news is, a new grad is usually carrying a huge student loans debt and doesn’t have any big assets to their name. Unless the new grad is married for a decade or so (until he or she accumulates wealth with minimum debt) then the “right spouse” issue can become a big problem if it leads to a divorce.

 

[Cold Front]

With enough saving, I worry less about having a serious life-threatening illness in the near future that will prevent me from supporting my wife and kids. I will only stop working hard until I know my kids will be able to support themselves (ie when they get accepted to a professional school). I have disability and life insurances but these are not enough. Kids are expensive.

You are 100% committed to your kids welfare and success. Many parents just wait until their kids move out and let them figure out what they want after they enter college.

How expensive are kids from birth to professional school? From daycare, to teens, 4 years college fully paid, and anything else that it takes to get them into professional school? I’m assuming a professional school = dental school? Will the cost of future dental education and the ROI be viable? In 5-10 years, average dental school will be up to $500k in tuition and fees, while salaries and income will remain the same as today or close to it.

 

[charlestweed]

You are 100% committed to your kids welfare and success. Many parents just wait until their kids move out and let them figure out what they want after they enter college.

How expensive are kids from birth to professional school? From daycare, to teens, 4 years college fully paid, and anything else that it takes to get them into professional school? I’m assuming a professional school = dental school? Will the cost of future dental education and the ROI be viable? In 5-10 years, average dental school will be up to $500k in tuition and fees, while salaries and income will remain the same as today or close to it.

Live-in nanny = $2000/month. Birthday parties (from birth to 10 years)= $1000-3000 each year. Private school from kindergarten to 8th grade: $8k/year. Catholic high school = $18k/year. Tennis lessons = $80 per hour......5 hours per week. Piano lessons = $200/month. SAT/ACT prep classes: $2000. Health insurance for family of 4: $1300/month. Vacation trips: $8-9k per trip etc etc.

Studentdent00, something wrong with the sdn website, I couldn't send you the PM

 

[Cold Front]

Live-in nanny = $2000/month. Birthday parties (from birth to 10 years)= $1000-3000 each year. Private school from kindergarten to 8th grade: $8k/year. Catholic high school = $18k/year. Tennis lessons = $80 per hour......5 hours per week. Piano lessons = $200/month. SAT/ACT prep classes: $2000. Health insurance for family of 4: $1300/month. Vacation trips: $8-9k per trip etc.

I’m assuming the budget for each child is $500/month minimum from birth to being a teen.

I had classmates in dental school with 2 kids or more and I was always curious how much money they were burning through to raise their children over 4 years, specially if they specialized right after school for another 2-4 years. That’s almost 6-8 years of no income (if the spouse was a full time stay home parent). Had to be very difficult financially! Possibly taking out more loans to support a family?

 

[desertrat12]

I’m assuming the budget for each child is $500/month minimum from birth to being a teen.

I had classmates in dental school with 2 kids or more and I was always curious how much money they were burning through to raise their children over 4 years, specially if they specialized right after school for another 2-4 years. That’s almost 6-8 years of no income (if the spouse was a full time stay home parent). Had to be very difficult financially! Possibly taking out more loans to support a family?

I’m in dental school with kids. Our monthly budget for everything is $1500 a month. We try hard to stick to that. Little kids can be pretty cheap, or at least have been for us, but i can see the future getting much more expensive with activities, sports, camps, whatever they decide to become involved with.

 

[desertrat12]

In comparison, this is about $500 a month more than we were spending without kids. $1000 a month was the budget before they came a long.

 

[charlestweed]

I’m assuming the budget for each child is $500/month minimum from birth to being a teen.

I had classmates in dental school with 2 kids or more and I was always curious how much money they were burning through to raise their children over 4 years, specially if they specialized right after school for another 2-4 years. That’s almost 6-8 years of no income (if the spouse was a full time stay home parent). Had to be very difficult financially! Possibly taking out more loans to support a family?

America is the land of opportunity. If the student doesn't make enough (because he's a F/T student), his/her family should be qualified for medicaid. There are also some childcare programs available....so the non-student spouse can work to support the family.

I think when the kids are still only 1-2 yo, it should be the good time to go to school F/T or to work as much as you can because at this young age, the kids don't remember anything. Sure, you feel bad when your 1 year old becomes more attached to the nanny or to the grandmother, who spends more time to take care of him/her. But when the kids get older and you have more time to spend with them (because you already have a stable job or an established practice), they will only listen to you.

Your kids don't need to attend expensive private high school in order to get a good education. There are actually more AP classes available at public schools than at my kids' private schools. My sister's all 3 kids go to public schools and her oldest one got accepted to an 8 yr BS/MD program.

 

[Cold Front]

America is the land of opportunity. If the student doesn't make enough (because he's a F/T student), his/her family should be qualified for medicaid.

Many residency programs offer health plans for residents and their families as part of cost of attendance. Residents can also do some moonlighting during residency and earn extra income for their families. It’s definitely doable but at the same time difficult.

 

[321931]

edit

 

[DrJeff]

I’m assuming the budget for each child is $500/month minimum from birth to being a teen.

I had classmates in dental school with 2 kids or more and I was always curious how much money they were burning through to raise their children over 4 years, specially if they specialized right after school for another 2-4 years. That’s almost 6-8 years of no income (if the spouse was a full time stay home parent). Had to be very difficult financially! Possibly taking out more loans to support a family?

As the parent of an almost 16 yr old (daughter) and an almost 14 year old (son), I wish that it was "only" $500 a month that my wife and I budgeted for for them!

Heck, when my son goes into a growth spurt, he's going through easily $200 a week in food, and then you add in the new clothes and shoes for the results of the growth spurt, and you get into higher math pretty quickly, and that's before you get into things such as sporting good needs, extra curricular school activity fees, entertainment expenses, various academic and athletic camps. I won't even get into what the clothing "needs" of an almost 16 year old daughter can add up to either!!

Having kids certainly isn't inexpensive, but IMHO it's worth every cent many times over. And honestly from the perspective of a parent, the fears that many have pre-kids (especially males it seems) of having to "give up" a lifestyle of "freedom" for me at least went away quite quickly, and it's actually now becoming more and more enjoyable now for my wife and I as our kids are at the age where we (my wife and I) can go out to dinner together and not have to worry about childcare for a few hours.

A colleague of mine, whom I looked to as a mentor for years before he passed away about 5 years ago, once told me his very profound take on having kids.... "If you're afraid to have kids, it means that you're actually afraid to be an adult, since NOTHING requires you to be an adult more than being a parent"

 

[2TH MVR]

As the parent of an almost 16 yr old (daughter) and an almost 14 year old (son), I wish that it was "only" $500 a month that my wife and I budgeted for for them!

Heck, when my son goes into a growth spurt, he's going through easily $200 a week in food, and then you add in the new clothes and shoes for the results of the growth spurt, and you get into higher math pretty quickly, and that's before you get into things such as sporting good needs, extra curricular school activity fees, entertainment expenses, various academic and athletic camps. I won't even get into what the clothing "needs" of an almost 16 year old daughter can add up to either!!

Having kids certainly isn't inexpensive, but IMHO it's worth every cent many times over. And honestly from the perspective of a parent, the fears that many have pre-kids (especially males it seems) of having to "give up" a lifestyle of "freedom" for me at least went away quite quickly, and it's actually now becoming more and more enjoyable now for my wife and I as our kids are at the age where we (my wife and I) can go out to dinner together and not have to worry about childcare for a few hours.

A colleague of mine, whom I looked to as a mentor for years before he passed away about 5 years ago, once told me his very profound take on having kids.... "If you're afraid to have kids, it means that you're actually afraid to be an adult, since NOTHING requires you to be an adult more than being a parent"

Well said. My two daughters are 18 and 24. Kids are VERY, VERY expensive, but I never once looked at it that way. Plenty of my friends are DINKS. Dual Income No Kids. They're definitely living the high life. 5 star everything. Plans to retire early and travel. Definitely an envious life. Imho not a complete, fullfilling life. Mucho respect for those dental students in DS with kids. Not easy, but definitely doable with future life rewards to come.

 

[Cold Front]

"If you're afraid to have kids, it means that you're actually afraid to be an adult, since NOTHING requires you to be an adult more than being a parent"

“I” don’t have kids and not “afraid” to have kids - just a personal choice. My wife and I love our lifestyle and we are open to having kids when we are ready without societal pressures. If we don’t end up having kids, that’s fine with us too. I’m the oldest of 7 siblings, and both my grandfathers had large families with multiple wives.... so I have around 70 uncles and aunts and they hall had multiple children... yes, those are insane numbers. My wife is 1 of 10 kids in her family. But with more families now having 2 children or less, married with no children (or being single) is becoming very common these days, and it will be even more common in the future.

In the old days (pre-1970), people had kids to help them with rural jobs and with extra errands families couldn’t afford to pay someone else. Communities were also pressuring their youth to have many kids. Today, young people are different and majorIty live in cities and are not subject to societal and family pressures. They hang out and get advise from people they work with or go to school with (plus you have social media), rather than being confined in a small town with a lot of older adults that heavily influence they youth. Less people go to church today than before, and we all know what the church’s opinion on kids are. Kids are now seen as liability - they are no longer a set of extra hands, but a set extra mouths to feed. Not to say I’m for or against having kids, but as a society, and the world, less kids will be born in the future. The US fertility rate is already an all time low, and will continue to decline as cost to raise children continues to increase. So the case for kids today is by far “for personal satisfaction” than for an “economic opportunity”.

 

[321931]

Long wall of text. Debating on posting.

 

[TanMan]

As the parent of an almost 16 yr old (daughter) and an almost 14 year old (son), I wish that it was "only" $500 a month that my wife and I budgeted for for them!

Heck, when my son goes into a growth spurt, he's going through easily $200 a week in food, and then you add in the new clothes and shoes for the results of the growth spurt, and you get into higher math pretty quickly, and that's before you get into things such as sporting good needs, extra curricular school activity fees, entertainment expenses, various academic and athletic camps. I won't even get into what the clothing "needs" of an almost 16 year old daughter can add up to either!!

Having kids certainly isn't inexpensive, but IMHO it's worth every cent many times over. And honestly from the perspective of a parent, the fears that many have pre-kids (especially males it seems) of having to "give up" a lifestyle of "freedom" for me at least went away quite quickly, and it's actually now becoming more and more enjoyable now for my wife and I as our kids are at the age where we (my wife and I) can go out to dinner together and not have to worry about childcare for a few hours.

A colleague of mine, whom I looked to as a mentor for years before he passed away about 5 years ago, once told me his very profound take on having kids.... "If you're afraid to have kids, it means that you're actually afraid to be an adult, since NOTHING requires you to be an adult more than being a parent"

Does it ever seem like having children saps the life out of you and your aspirations? I ask because staff that have had kids recently seemed to have transformed from youthful, vibrant workers to where they now seem resigned to the life with kids. Being an adult means being responsible for your own survival and actions. I don't recall ever seeing the definition of bringing a child into this world to tie you down as an "adult". Being a parent forces you to be an adult or face the consequences of child neglect from the state, but I don't think it's a prerequisite of being an adult, just an adult that's tied down to obligation.

Well said. My two daughters are 18 and 24. Kids are VERY, VERY expensive, but I never once looked at it that way. Plenty of my friends are DINKS. Dual Income No Kids. They're definitely living the high life. 5 star everything. Plans to retire early and travel. Definitely an envious life. Imho not a complete, fullfilling life. Mucho respect for those dental students in DS with kids. Not easy, but definitely doable with future life rewards to come.

Many parents look dead in the eyes when you see how much they struggle taking care of their kids, whereas the DINKS just seem a lot happier overall. I've had to stay in lesser accomodations with my extended family because I didn't want to flip the bill for the entire family with 5 star accomodations with first class flights and I can see the sacrifices that parents have to make for the sake of their children. Having to hear the whining and all the crap that comes with having children... when I think where I could've gone, v. having to sacrifice on behalf of family, I don't think it was worth it and I would've rather vacationed with my gf and no one else. Hypothetically, if I had 2 kids and I wanted to maintain the same lifestyle, my travel/discretionary expenses would essentially double/triple at which I probably could not afford at my current income level.

However, there lies the key and solution to the problem of downgrading the lifestyle when you have kids. Kids are a constantly non-producing, time consuming, and expense generating (mostly non-deductible) money pit. If you have kids too early, then kids will drag your ability to produce additional income to maintain a certain lifestyle. If you were not born into wealth, then the key is to save money early on to have passive income producing assets to the point where the income generated is far greater than the maintenance cost of the children. The maintenance cost of the child depends on direct and indirect costs. Direct costs are costs such as food, clothing, expenses, lifestyle related expenditures and indirect costs are moreso time consumption, drained mental energies from managing the child (or just hire a full time nanny to lower time/stress), and others I can't think of right now.

tl;dr: Make enough money so they can't drag your cash flow and maintain same lifestyle. Make enough money to hire a ft nanny. Bonus: Make enough money to hire a surrogate (avoid physical body changes)

 

[321931]

Well said. My two daughters are 18 and 24. Kids are VERY, VERY expensive, but I never once looked at it that way. Plenty of my friends are DINKS. Dual Income No Kids. They're definitely living the high life. 5 star everything. Plans to retire early and travel. Definitely an envious life. Imho not a complete, fullfilling life. Mucho respect for those dental students in DS with kids. Not easy, but definitely doable with future life rewards to come.

I'm with 2th mvr on this. Kids are the sole purpose of literally your entire genetic reason why you are alive. To pass on your genes and continue mankind. You can't put a price on that.

 

[2TH MVR]

Does it ever seem like having children saps the life out of you and your aspirations? I ask because staff that have had kids recently seemed to have transformed from youthful, vibrant workers to where they now seem resigned to the life with kids. Being an adult means being responsible for your own survival and actions. I don't recall ever seeing the definition of bringing a child into this world to tie you down as an "adult". Being a parent forces you to be an adult or face the consequences of child neglect from the state, but I don't think it's a prerequisite of being an adult, just an adult that's tied down to obligation.



Many parents look dead in the eyes when you see how much they struggle taking care of their kids, whereas the DINKS just seem a lot happier overall. I've had to stay in lesser accomodations with my extended family because I didn't want to flip the bill for the entire family with 5 star accomodations with first class flights and I can see the sacrifices that parents have to make for the sake of their children. Having to hear the whining and all the crap that comes with having children... when I think where I could've gone, v. having to sacrifice on behalf of family, I don't think it was worth it and I would've rather vacationed with my gf and no one else. Hypothetically, if I had 2 kids and I wanted to maintain the same lifestyle, my travel/discretionary expenses would essentially double/triple at which I probably could not afford at my current income level.

However, there lies the key and solution to the problem of downgrading the lifestyle when you have kids. Kids are a constantly non-producing, time consuming, and expense generating (mostly non-deductible) money pit. If you have kids too early, then kids will drag your ability to produce additional income to maintain a certain lifestyle. If you were not born into wealth, then the key is to save money early on to have passive income producing assets to the point where the income generated is far greater than the maintenance cost of the children. The maintenance cost of the child depends on direct and indirect costs. Direct costs are costs such as food, clothing, expenses, lifestyle related expenditures and indirect costs are moreso time consumption, drained mental energies from managing the child (or just hire a full time nanny to lower time/stress), and others I can't think of right now.

tl;dr: Make enough money so they can't drag your cash flow and maintain same lifestyle. Make enough money to hire a ft nanny. Bonus: Make enough money to hire a surrogate (avoid physical body changes)

I agree with many points you have made. RESPONSIBLE "PRE"parenting is the best course of action. Unfortunately too many couples who are not financially secure have children and then endure a life that is less than ideal. Both for them and their children. Not saying one way is better than the next, but my wife and I waited till after I graduated from residency and actually had a job before planning to have our 1st child. Luckily it all worked out. We were just planning to have ONE child. Reason was as mentioned by yourself and others .... we wanted to ENJOY a life after so many years of schooling. We like nice things just like everyone else. New plan. One child ONLY. Was fun for the next 5-6 years and then ...... we felt guilty that our only child did not have a playmate. We almost felt guilty .... almost selfish for not bringing into this world a sister or brother for our only child. Child 2 came along during the next 12 months.

At this point my wife and I live our lives through our children. But don't get me wrong ..... soon (2 months) my wife and I will be official empty nesters. We will balance a life shared with our children and revive many of our experiences prior to kids. We're looking forward to having some child free fun. 🙂

 

[DrJeff]

I agree with many points you have made. RESPONSIBLE "PRE"parenting is the best course of action. Unfortunately too many couples who are not financially secure have children and then endure a life that is less than ideal. Both for them and their children. Not saying one way is better than the next, but my wife and I waited till after I graduated from residency and actually had a job before planning to have our 1st child. Luckily it all worked out. We were just planning to have ONE child. Reason was as mentioned by yourself and others .... we wanted to ENJOY a life after so many years of schooling. We like nice things just like everyone else. New plan. One child ONLY. Was fun for the next 5-6 years and then ...... we felt guilty that our only child did not have a playmate. We almost felt guilty .... almost selfish for not bringing into this world a sister or brother for our only child. Child 2 came along during the next 12 months.

At this point my wife and I live our lives through our children. But don't get me wrong ..... soon (2 months) my wife and I will be official empty nesters. We will balance a life shared with our children and revive many of our experiences prior to kids. We're looking forward to having some child free fun. 🙂

Agree with so much of this!

My wife and I waited to have our 1st child until she was 4 years out of her ortho residency and I was 5 years out of my 2 year GPR. I was 3 years into the practice I am still in as a partner today, and my wife actually switched practices soon after our daughter was born. We were financially stable, however there was till some variability in our lives. Our son came 2 years later.

The amount of overall life enrichment and sense of satisfaction that being a parent has brought us, and watching your own kids grow and discover new things, and become their own person on a day to day, week to week, month to month and year to year thing is far greater that not being a parent was for me and my wife.

I guess in dental practice sense, I liken it to when I complete a big anterior aesthetic case on a patient, Sure, I enjoy the technical aspects of the case and the financial reward that it brings me, however what I really enjoy is seeing the look of happiness and excitement on the patients face the first time I hand them the hand mirror and the get a look at the finished product in their own mouth, I remember that far longer and with a much greater sense of satisfaction getting to see the enjoyment another is experiencing from something that I have done, than anything else.

Parenting is truly a game changing life event, probably bigger than just about any other change that you may have in your life. I will wear you out at times and cause you stress at other times, it will make you cry and cringe at times and question your worthiness as a human being at others. In the end though, the amount of true joy that it brings, far out paces any other thing that I have done in my life, and truly gives me a sense of feeling complete to the point where I rarely think about what I may no longer be doing and/or doing far less than I used to in my pre parenting days.

Whats also interesting as an aside, is my wife and I have a few couples friends who don't have kids (by choice, not by biological reasons) and now that we're all roughly 50 years old, and established in our respective professions for multiple decades, I find more and more that the non parent couples tend to gravitate far more to the kids (or more appropriately the teens in particular) at parties than they used to, and I hear far more regularly comments from them such as "you kids are really fun people" or "it must be cool to go play golf with your son now?" or "it must be fun teaching your daughter to drive" like they realize that there's something that they're missing out on. Parenting isn't for everyone, but it sure is a cool thing in my book!

 

[321931]

Agree with so much of this!

My wife and I waited to have our 1st child until she was 4 years out of her ortho residency and I was 5 years out of my 2 year GPR. I was 3 years into the practice I am still in as a partner today, and my wife actually switched practices soon after our daughter was born. We were financially stable, however there was till some variability in our lives. Our son came 2 years later.

The amount of overall life enrichment and sense of satisfaction that being a parent has brought us, and watching your own kids grow and discover new things, and become their own person on a day to day, week to week, month to month and year to year thing is far greater that not being a parent was for me and my wife.

I guess in dental practice sense, I liken it to when I complete a big anterior aesthetic case on a patient, Sure, I enjoy the technical aspects of the case and the financial reward that it brings me, however what I really enjoy is seeing the look of happiness and excitement on the patients face the first time I hand them the hand mirror and the get a look at the finished product in their own mouth, I remember that far longer and with a much greater sense of satisfaction getting to see the enjoyment another is experiencing from something that I have done, than anything else.

Parenting is truly a game changing life event, probably bigger than just about any other change that you may have in your life. I will wear you out at times and cause you stress at other times, it will make you cry and cringe at times and question your worthiness as a human being at others. In the end though, the amount of true joy that it brings, far out paces any other thing that I have done in my life, and truly gives me a sense of feeling complete to the point where I rarely think about what I may no longer be doing and/or doing far less than I used to in my pre parenting days.

Whats also interesting as an aside, is my wife and I have a few couples friends who don't have kids (by choice, not by biological reasons) and now that we're all roughly 50 years old, and established in our respective professions for multiple decades, I find more and more that the non parent couples tend to gravitate far more to the kids (or more appropriately the teens in particular) at parties than they used to, and I hear far more regularly comments from them such as "you kids are really fun people" or "it must be cool to go play golf with your son now?" or "it must be fun teaching your daughter to drive" like they realize that there's something that they're missing out on. Parenting isn't for everyone, but it sure is a cool thing in my book!

I liken to think that having kids is like marriage.

At a certain point in your life- early 20's- bachelor life is nice. Cheap, efficient, lots of girls, tons of time with friends, chilling, bar hopping, but you grow up, and find that having a meaningful relationship with someone you can grow and love for the rest of your life is priceless. I've been with my with for 12 years, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I liken to think, kids are the same way. Yes there are rough patches in marriage and kids, but in the end, it's meaningful and you can't put a price on it. I would never get a nanny for my kid. I want to take care of my kid and raise them and see them grow. They are only young once. Once they grow up, that's that. If you missed out on it because you were working and you had a nanny- well you missed out. I personally would never get a surrogate- carrying your own child- is your own child. That's something that's you.

Anyways, Even if you have 10 million dollars in the bank, you can't buy the meaningness that kids and marriage bring.

In addition, I think later on in life when you have really lived out your life- you are older in your 50's 60's, you are past your prime, you have done mostly everything, and you have traveled, and you have played with the fun things in life- that you may wish you had kids who can look after you, take care of you, and also have grandchildren. You have passed on the torch- and they in turn take care of you and love you.

On a biological level- kids are the reason why we live- to pass on our genes. As primal as it may be, its what kept us going for the past thousand of years. Putting that aside because "kids are non productive" just seems disingenuous.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Cold Front]

tl;dr: Make enough money so they can't drag your cash flow and maintain same lifestyle. Make enough money to hire a ft nanny. Bonus: Make enough money to hire a surrogate (avoid physical body changes)

A much older colleague and a friend (and orthodontist) once told me, “if you can write a check for a problem, then it’s not a problem”. Majority of people have children during a period where they also worry about paying the bills. I have 5 employees between age 40-45 who are grandparents, yes, grandparents! I ask them every now and then - if they would do anything differently if they had the chance do it all over again about having children. All of them said they would have delayed having kids or have less kids (maybe after knowing how the kids turned out). Every generation deals with having children differently, and I think the reasons to have children is slowly moving away from the default reasons of either “bloodline “ or “everyone is having children”. Future generations will look back someday and think we had children for the wrong reasons.

 

[2TH MVR]

Funny how some of these threads derail.

 

[Cold Front]

Funny how some of these threads derail.

The things we do when we get bored at work.

 

[TanMan]

I liken to think that having kids is like marriage.

At a certain point in your life- early 20's- bachelor life is nice. Cheap, efficient, lots of girls, tons of time with friends, chilling, bar hopping, but you grow up, and find that having a meaningful relationship with someone you can grow and love for the rest of your life is priceless. I've been with my with for 12 years, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I liken to think, kids are the same way. Yes there are rough patches in marriage and kids, but in the end, it's meaningful and you can't put a price on it. I would never get a nanny for my kid. I want to take care of my kid and raise them and see them grow. They are only young once. Once they grow up, that's that. If you missed out on it because you were working and you had a nanny- well you missed out. I personally would never get a surrogate- carrying your own child- is your own child. That's something that's you.

Anyways, Even if you have 10 million dollars in the bank, you can't buy the meaningness that kids and marriage bring.

In addition, I think later on in life when you have really lived out your life- you are older in your 50's 60's, you are past your prime, you have done mostly everything, and you have traveled, and you have played with the fun things in life- that you may wish you had kids who can look after you, take care of you, and also have grandchildren. You have passed on the torch- and they in turn take care of you and love you.

On a biological level- kids are the reason why we live- to pass on our genes. As primal as it may be, its what kept us going for the past thousand of years. Putting that aside because "kids are non productive" just seems disingenuous.

That's just my opinion.

My gf does not want her body shape to change much, based on the changes that her friends have undergone when they got pregnant. So, surrogacy is on the table for her. Also the pain, hormonal changes, etc... Why go through that if you don't have to, and that's where I agree with her. It's like hiring a living incubator. Your ingredients, someone else's oven.

What would you say then, if the child became a complete mess up and utter disappointment? Do you think there are parents that have regret for ever bringing their child into the world. In an ideal world, they succeed and take care of you. Otherwise, they could also be just a lifetime leech or dump you into a nursing home. I don't think it's all sunshine and rainbows in the end, nor would I think that ideally. What's wrong with having a child with no expectation that they are going to take care of you? I would not expect anything of anyone, because expectations lead to disappointment. In that case, I'd prefer to bring a child into the world when I'm ready, raise them in the similar parameters in which I grew up and hope they become a mini-me.

I'm not sure why people need others to bring meaning to their lives. Why can't people find their own meaning through their own adventures, experiences, religion, etc...? Why would family/kids have to be the reason to live.?

Kids are definitely non-productive unless you owned a business or two that you could employ them and make them understand the value of hard work. Society has changed a lot with labor laws and essentially overprotecting/coddling these new generations from labor restrictions to not being allowed to walk to school to giving everyone a participation trophy. I'm not very optimistic of the upcoming generation below us and I guess I would not be in the position to determine whether the goodwill generated by kids is enough to offset the financial costs. However, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you don't have kids, you can't really determine whether it's worth it or not, but if you have kids, you can't just give them away if it's as bad as I think it is.

As I've said, once I'm bored with life and financially ready for a child, I'll probably have kids. I'm not willing to forgo my life at this time on a glorified/idealistic hunch of how children provide fulfillment in life. If it is, great, if it isn't, there goes at least 18 years of your life.