Always Amusing

[JackD]

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Perhaps i shouldn't take joy in other people's failures, maybe that is a little sadistic. However, i always make exceptions for when young people do and think stupid things. For one of my psychology classes, and this question is asked quite often, at the beginning of the semester the professor of the course said "raise your hand if you plan on going to graduate school for psychology." Out of a class of about 80 (i go to a very large school) i would guess that at least 65 people in the class raised their hand. If you are wondering, no, i did not raise my hand because i don't like to count my chickens before they hatch.

At any rate, we had our first test yesterday, in this class. Each of these tests are worth about 1/3 of our total grade, so naturally i busted my *** studying for it. That paid off, since i got a 95%. However, the average score was in the low 70's. Now if you think back to the fact that about 80% of the class claims they are going to graduate school for psychology, that is where the folly of youth fits in and this is where i laugh a little. Of course some of these student probably did quite well. I'm sure a few did better than me but if your average score is in the low 70's and a large majority of the class says "grad school, here i come!", there is a disconnect somewhere. If you can't do well in psychology courses as an undergrad, be it laziness or just because you can't grasp the material, then what chance do you think you have in graduate school?

I have been around for awhile, so i have seen this phenomenon many times but it always strikes me as interesting because it confirms a long held belief i have had. Which is that so many college students fail to realize how great of an opportunity going to college is and they often coast through. I laugh at these people because they are lazy towards education and it always bites them in the a$$. I'm not egotistical about this, i don't feel that i am more intelligent than these people but i am smart enough to realize how important effort is.

Now some of you may be thinking "JackD, you aren't in graduate school, what the hell do you know?" I would say "true" but i can say with a high level of certainty that if you put no effort into your undergraduate work and you think you can do the bare minimum, just enough to pull out a C, and after all of that, you think you will waltz right into graduate school, you're delusional.

 

[psych08]

Interesting post. I would like to add that a lot of people at my institution think that they can just waltz into gradaute school and not have half the credentials or grades to get into. Its funny when I think back to my intro class and my mind set was the same as you were talking about - I thought that getting into gradaute school for a Ph.D. program was such an easy process but now that I have applied and going through that whole process I would like to say that its is an arduous ordeal and that i had no clue how stringent the process is and how selective the admissions commitee can be.

I am now telling psych students that are freshman that they better start taking their undergraduate career seriously and that they need to keep their GPA's high, gain research experience and really do well on the GRE's. A lot of students think that research experience is not really a bid deal at my institution but I think that speading the wealth of onformation that I have gained through applying to those that want to go onto gradaute school is somewhat of a pay it forward thing for me.

Getting into a Ph.D. program is not the easiest thing in the world contrary to popular belief of those that do not know the process. The other thing I find funny is the complete lack of information being dispersed to those in intro to psychology. A lot of undergraduates that are just starting out do not realize that there is a world out there other than clinical psychology. Quite a large number did not realize that you could get a Ph.D. in experimental, cognition and perception, industrial/organizational, etc.. I think the best thing undergraduates and graduate students that are knowledgable in the application process and life in gradaute school is to inform others of how to stand out in the process and just be mentors to our future applicants.

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, psych is super easy to coast through. Good courses are usually electives and fluffier ones are the required material. There's the prereq stats class that's dumbed down to a ridiculous level because so many students in psych fear math. A lot of undergrads have serious misconceptions about the lifestyles of therapists, too.

It's a problem for people who want to go into practice, because those weak students now have alternatives to get into that field. I can shrug it off somewhat--none of those people are in direct competition with me, although I am affected by field-level issues caused by that.

Jack, just remember that the best part of success is that in order for you to succeed, others must fail. 😛

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It drives me nuts when I hear undergrads talking about wanting to get their doctorate, like they rolled out of bed and decided they'd sign up for classes. Thankfully they soon realize that it is much harder.

 

[psychwanabe]

Interesting post. I would like to add that a lot of people at my institution think that they can just waltz into gradaute school and not have half the credentials or grades to get into. Its funny when I think back to my intro class and my mind set was the same as you were talking about - I thought that getting into gradaute school for a Ph.D. program was such an easy process but now that I have applied and going through that whole process I would like to say that its is an arduous ordeal and that i had no clue how stringent the process is and how selective the admissions commitee can be.

I agree. I wouldn't necessarily call it laziness (although don't get me started on college students who come to class sporadiacally, don't study for tests until the day of/night before, don't read books for papers until two days before the paper is due, etc.) but rather ignorance.

I was a highly motivated college student, being older than everyone else. I think it meant more to me and I busted my butt to get good grades. But I had no idea how difficult it was to get into graduate school, and it wasn't until my junior year that I started to understand.

I think it is vital that psychology programs gather the undergrads up who profess a desire for graduate studies and really explain what that path entails. If they learn it in their freshman or sophomore year of UG, they will either buckle down and get serious, or they will save themselves a lot of pain and switch their major.

 

[JackD]

Jack, just remember that the best part of success is that in order for you to succeed, others must fail. 😛

And i thank them for their sacrifice. Perhaps one day i will be able to counsel them when they wonder where life went wrong.

I wouldn't necessarily call it laziness

I think it is laziness, for the most part, although obviously some are a little too, for lack of a better term, dumb to understand the material. I was a teenager not too long ago. I was a freshman who entered a college class thinking that you didn't have to try too hard. Just get by and hopefully you will do better than most students. For my first year, i didn't show up to class, i didn't take notes during lecture, i didn't read my books (i sold a few back to the book store at the end of the semester, still inside of their plastic covering). Thankfully i didn't do too much damage and managed to leave my freshman year with just under a 3.0 and by the beginning of my sophomore year, finally figured things out.

The reason why i think it is laziness, not stupidity, is because i see so many students doing what i did. A lot of my class mates who are soon-to-be rejects from graduate schools, are not freshman. If you are a freshman, this kind of disconnect between aspirations and performance is forgivable. You need to adjust to a lot of things, they deserve some slack. However, the sophomores, juniors, and seniors who make up my classes, do not. These people have been in college for years and yet they act like i did when i was 18. They don't show up unless there is a test (some don't even show up for every test), they don't take notes in class, and i am going to go out on a limb and say they probably don't read the book. Just download the class notes, give them a good look over, and hope you can guess 70% of the questions correctly on the test.

Now i am sure some of these kids are dumb, i've seen people who try really hard but just don't do well. However, i bet that many could do as well as any of us in undergraduate work, if they tried. The thing is, they don't. If i told many of my classmates how many hours a week i spend outside of school studying, they would probably think "what a loser. Why would anyone study that hard?"

Again, i'm not saying that everyone is pales in comparison to by genius and i have this whole getting into graduate school thing wrapped up but i am pretty sure i have some important things figured out, that many of my classmates do not.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm going to pick up an undergrad class this fall from my friend, and I've listened to enough stories about lame e-mails and coursework that I'll be updating her syllabus to include clearer policies. I enjoy undergrads because the work is easy/broad enough to allow more flexibility. I'm not wild about the text, but most of the intro books are 'eh'.

 

[JackD]

I've listened to enough stories about lame e-mails and coursework that I'll be updating her syllabus to include clearer policies.

I think i know what you are getting at and something actually happened today, which may apply to your concerns. In my class on the 'brain behavior' class, my professor was talking about the first test we are going to have, which is in a week. He was breaking down how the test was going to be "55 multiple choice question, 15 short answer, and labeling 15 parts of the brain." An 85 question test is a bit on the long side but i have had longer tests before.

I am suprised there wasn't an armed revolt. People were freaking out. "85 questions?! My God!" You could hear gasps and rumblings around the room. There were people demanding that he make it shorter, there were people demanding he curve it, there was one person who asked if there was going to be a "word bank" for diagram. Like an elementary school crossword puzzle. The teacher, who has been doing this for decades, stayed calm for awhile but after about ten minutes he finally just said bluntly "this is COLLEGE."

And in their minds, they are the world's future doctors.

Maybe psychwanabe is correct. My class mates are idiots.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think i know what you are getting at and something actually happened today, which may apply to your concerns. In my class on the 'brain behavior' class, my professor was talking about the first test we are going to have, which is in a week. He was breaking down how the test was going to be "55 multiple choice question, 15 short answer, and labeling 15 parts of the brain." An 85 question test is a bit on the long side but i have had longer tests before.

I am suprised there wasn't an armed revolt. People were freaking out. "85 questions?! My God!" You could hear gasps and rumblings around the room. There were people demanding that he make it shorter, there were people demanding he curve it, there was one person who asked if there was going to be a "word bank" for diagram. Like an elementary school crossword puzzle. The teacher, who has been doing this for decades, stayed calm for awhile but after about ten minutes he finally just said bluntly "this is COLLEGE."

And in their minds, they are the world's future doctors.

Maybe psychwanabe is correct. My class mates are idiots.

That is about 8 minutes longer than I would have lasted.



I understand my class isn't the ONLY class they will have, but it does no one any good for me to let people mail it in and not learn anything. Of course, I am a fan of all essay exams (I took maybe one or two multiple choice exams during my entire college career), so they'd complain that I make them write too much. Though in the end, they'll learn something....or fail. In my defense, I'd give them a review that touches on all of the topics/concepts I expect them to know, etc. I don't believe in making people memorize facts, but if they can't coherently explain something....how useful is that piece of information to them?

 

[Markro311]

I doubt that most of those students were very serious about going on to grad school in psychology. I'm sure many of them have no idea what they want to do, and have considered some psych grad program one of their possibilities. And if the prof asks that question, they probably think they come off better if they raise their hands.

I don't really understand the frustration all that much. As some others have mentioned, if they are a subpar student and did raise their hand, they'll likely soon realize that grad school in psych is not the best direction for them.

 

[cara susanna]

Well, some people know you have to do well on the GREs but can't no matter how hard they try (like yours truly 🙁)

Anyway, every year this professor on our faculty gives a talk on getting into grad school. You should see what everyone there doesn't know! I also love when I overhear a professor with a student who says he/she is a junior and wants to go into... "Oh, I don't know, clinical." My unofficial advisor told me that when you consider the low clinical admissions rates, you also have to consider the students who have NO idea what they're in for and just think clinical sounds cool, without having any of the requirements needed to get in.

 

[JackD]

This has nothing to do with the thread but

Marko

311=👍. I haven't really been listening to them that much lately but your sig makes me want to dust off Music and give it a listen. I recently listened to grassroots for the first time in about a year and it blew me away. I really should start listening to them again.

 

[JockNerd]

Well, some people know you have to do well on the GREs but can't no matter how hard they try (like yours truly 🙁)

With the exception of someone who doesn't know English, I don't believe this is anything but an irrational thought.

 

[Anon15]

With the exception of someone who doesn't know English, I don't believe this is anything but an irrational thought.

May be a bit of a stretch...

 

[myelin]

i graduated with a sub 3.0 overall gpa and i'm in graduate school. don't throw the baby out with the bath water! granted, i had to do a ton of extra work (i.e. research), but it can be done.

now jackd, weren't you posting to a thread of yours the other day in which we were talking about NOT skipping undergraduate classes because it will catch up to you in grad school...and you were skipping class?? playing on SDN??😎😉

 

[NH14]

While I tend to agree with most of what's been said, I feel its quite demeaning of us to call these people "lazy" or "stupid", or less than average whatever PC pseudoterm you put in (and yes I just made the word "pseudoterm" up). We are suppose to respect others and treat others with dignity. Viewing others as stupid and lazy implies that you know each of your "stupid" and "lazy" classmates' life circumstances in sufficiently intimate detail to make such a an informed judgment, which I am sure none of us do not.

So yes, while I personally do sulk about how I think these same things about my classmates, and how naive it is that they all think that they'll get into grad school and feel that every test is as if they are about to give birth, I do feel that this does not justify our demeaning and belittle of them that we are engaging in.

Just my two cents, take it or leave it

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I was just about to say what NH14 did. Is it really necessary to call people dumb, stupid, or lazy just because they're uninformed about a process that all of us were uninformed about at some point?

Yes there are a billion undergrads who say "oh my god I'm totally going to get my PhD in Psychology" who have no idea what a GRE is or that research is required. However, those people are either not going to apply or will be weeded out anyway. They're not a threat to you, so I'm not really sure why their "stupidity" or whatever you want to call it annoys you...

 

[psych08]

In my class on the 'brain behavior' class, my professor was talking about the first test we are going to have, which is in a week. He was breaking down how the test was going to be "55 multiple choice question, 15 short answer, and labeling 15 parts of the brain."

NO FAIR!!! I knew I was going to get jealous in this thread! I guess its my undergraduate institution being more a teachers school than social science oriented but we don't have any good undergraduate classes and I would kill to take a class on brain behavior and the like. The closest I can get to that would be to take a Behavioral Neuroscience Graduate level class - which didnt fit into my schedule this semester and its my last semester. Boo.

Funny thing now is that I have decided to change my whole future. Anybody have that? You go on interviews - in my case clinical ph.d. interviews - and then realize that you really don't want to go clinical and realize that your true passion is in statistics and neuroscience - and now you have to scramble to find Masters programs to attend because its now March and all ph.d. programs deadlines have passed. And you're thinking - is it worth it- should I just wait and apply next year or for a spring start for the masters programs. And do you go MA or MS and where do you go and how are you going to pay for it. AHH, sooo off topic.

I have a plan though. I am going to eventually get my ph.d. and then come back to my undergraduate institution and re-vamp their courses to include classes that gradaute school want to see - like History and Systems, Neuroscience, etc...

Oh, and I also want to start a class entitled Current Directions in Psychological Science in which each semester or year the curriculum changes. So each couple of months is focused on a particular topic in psychology like social, clinical, developmental, etc. and then under each topic we will explore current research and current superstars in that area. I would LOVE to get psychology students interested in people that are doing amazing research now and then when they go to APA or APS they can really appreciate those that are around them and really network and know peoples research. That would be amazing!

 

[JackD]

now jackd, weren't you posting to a thread of yours the other day in which we were talking about NOT skipping undergraduate classes because it will catch up to you in grad school...and you were skipping class

I skipped one class and it was just developmental psychology. It isn't exactly a "useful" subject. I figured getting a good night sleep was more important than getting up early and being bored for 75 minutes.

 

[deleted176373]

While I tend to agree with most of what's been said, I feel its quite demeaning of us to call these people "lazy" or "stupid", or less than average whatever PC pseudoterm you put in (and yes I just made the word "pseudoterm" up). We are suppose to respect others and treat others with dignity. Viewing others as stupid and lazy implies that you know each of your "stupid" and "lazy" classmates' life circumstances in sufficiently intimate detail to make such a an informed judgment, which I am sure none of us do not.

So yes, while I personally do sulk about how I think these same things about my classmates, and how naive it is that they all think that they'll get into grad school and feel that every test is as if they are about to give birth, I do feel that this does not justify our demeaning and belittle of them that we are engaging in.

Just my two cents, take it or leave it

LOL, would it be appropriate to say that they lack vision?

Look, many of us have made mistakes (I would be the first to acknowledge that.) However I believe that the real failure is in the collegiate system not informing it's consumers of what is expected of them in order to get the most out of the educational process.

No one told me how to get into graduate school. No one said, hey, what are your future plans or what do you want to do with your degree? They didn't show me how to apply for scholarships, nada, nothing. I found out about the honors program from another student who said he liked it because he got first choice of classes (and honestly it was the reason I joined.) I didn't realize that the choices I made that first semester would be so critical. I was fortunate, I was older and I wanted to focus on the job at hand and I had few distractions.

The schools are responsible for the fact that these students are not understanding the nature of the graduate school process and the level of competition to obtain admission into some fields of study. By the time many students understand, it's too late, they are not in the running anymore. Their 2.5 GPA was enough to slide by and graduate, only to realize at graduation that they needed to start applying to graduate school a year ago! It's pretty sad that this is the state of things, but it's the truth.

Mark

PS - I understand his frustration, it's with everyone minimizing how tough the process is and acting like they are gonna go too. It's really interesting because people act like it's no big deal and talk smack about going... when you know better.

 

[michalita]

They can always get an MSW.

Not necessarily. The MSW requires a great deal of work and not doing it/being prepared hurts the students' chances of graduating. I can't stand this notion that the MSW is "easy." It's a Master's degree, obviously it's not going to be the same as getting a Ph.D. but it is not easy. Doing clinical 3x/week on top of 5 classes (and anything else you need to do to pay for school because you do not get funding) is extremely challenging. Your average "C student" is not equipped to pull it off.

😡

 

[JackD]

I do feel that this does not justify our demeaning and belittle of them that we are engaging in.

Well, it isn't like they are here or anything.

I feel its quite demeaning of us to call these people "lazy" or "stupid",

Well, whatever you want to call it, the point remains the same. Of course i can't say that 100% of those students in my classes are "lazy" or "stupid" but what other explanation is there? Yes, one or two may have had an off day and a couple may be so overwhelmed with something, that taking a test wasn't their first priority. However, we all know that most of these people probably did not work all that hard preparing for this test, even if they could have, or really any other test because this is not an isolated incident. I have seen this on every psychology test, in every psychology class i have ever taken. Everyone talks about going to grad school and yet, a large majority don't show up to class and do poorly on the tests. And this is just a guess but i think it is safe to say that they don't read the book. A lot of the time, i meet people who don't even have the book.

Maybe they do lack the knowledge about exactly how difficult getting into psychology programs is but that really an excuse? Who in their right mind could get C's in every class that is associated with what they want to earn their doctorate in and think they have any shot? These people have to have some idea of the difficulty. There are very few doctors in this world, i am sure they have made that connection. Even before i knew how difficult it is to get into clinical programs, i still worked hard. I still did everything that i do today. Everyone has some idea, the question is, why do they think that just passing is good enough?

So yes, some people have legitimate reasons for not being able to do well on a test but i doubt everyone does. The bottom line is, you can't do the bare minimum, not do well in an intro class as an undergrad, and then expect to have any realistic shot at becoming a doctor. And frankly there are two reasons why. Laziness and yes, that is a very common trait for college students. Who can deny that? We have all been there but some of us figured things out and some did not. Or not being able to grasp the material. Psychology isn't for everyone. I have trouble grasping physics and anything have to do with art or music. Would you say that maybe i have trouble grasping the material? Maybe it isn't for me? Should i perceive that as insulting?

However, i disagree, i think it is perfectly fine to rip on people for being lazy. If you have an opportunity to do something that you supposedly want to do but you just let it pass you by because you wanted to play video games or get drunk, that is your fault. I see no problem with making fun of those people.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Well, it isn't like they are here or anything.

Does that make it better?

If I call a client of mine lazy or stupid or dumb when they aren't in the room, is that okay?

I understand that it's invalidating to see someone who obviously is out of the loop spouting off about how easy it would be to do something you're trying to go (i.e., go to grad school). However, YOU know it's hard, everyone HERE knows it's hard, and everyone who's ever gotten into a psych grad program knows it's hard. So does it matter that these undergrads are misinformed? Yes since as MarkP said it's a failure of the schools to educate them properly about the process, but there's no reason for it to matter to you specifically. If it really matters to you then maybe what you should do is organize an open seminar about what it's like to apply to grad school and present that at your school, as a forum member did when we were in undergrad together. That would definitely be more productive than calling them stupid or lazy.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

However, i disagree, i think it is perfectly fine to rip on people for being lazy. If you have an opportunity to do something that you supposedly want to do but you just let it pass you by because you wanted to play video games or get drunk, that is your fault. I see no problem with making fun of those people.

Lots of people do things that are "their fault." Making fun of those people is just going to reflect badly on you, not them.

Besides, there's a huge community of people who don't believe "laziness" exists. Lack of motivation generally has some other cause that making fun of people won't illuminate.

Off the top of my head, there's this book: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Laziness-Mel-Levine/dp/074321367X

 

[psychwanabe]

Maybe psychwanabe is correct. My class mates are idiots.

I specifically did not say idiots. I said that the issue was ignorance. A lack of information does not make someone stupid.

 

[JackD]

I specifically did not say idiots. I said that the issue was ignorance. A lack of information does not make someone stupid.

My bad.

 

[psychwanabe]

I skipped one class and it was just developmental psychology. It isn't exactly a "useful" subject. I figured getting a good night sleep was more important than getting up early and being bored for 75 minutes.

Wow. This just made me laugh out loud. I would say that there are a large number of psychologists (and graduate students) who would think that this comment is every bit as short sighted and ignorant those opinions and ideas expressed by your classmates that frustrate you so deeply.

 

[JackD]

Wow. This just made me laugh out loud. I would say that there are a large number of psychologists (and graduate students) who would think that this comment is every bit as short sighted and ignorant those opinions and ideas expressed by your classmates that frustrate you so deeply.

It was a joke.

 

[psychwanabe]

It was a joke.

Ahhh...glad to hear it. My bad. 🙄

 

[michalita]

Perhaps i shouldn't take joy in other people's failures, maybe that is a little sadistic. However, i always make exceptions for when young people do and think stupid things.

Seems to me, based on the posts you've written, that you are actually irritated by the fact that other people think they can get into PhD programs without working hard. For one, their not working hard does not hurt you, it only helps your chances if they do actually apply to grad programs. Next, you're doing what you need to do -- why should other people's business even matter to you? So they won't get into programs. So they'll find other work they can do without having to do the schoolwork in psychology. Maybe their priorities are different. This doesn't make you any better or worse than them.

I do agree that there are a number of people that do not take their education seriously and act with a sense of entitlement with regards to coursework and grades. If I were their professor, that would definitely tick me off, as it is difficult to teach anything to unmotivated students.

You also imply that you've "been around a while," and please correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in your undergrad years and you are not an non-trad student, so you're maybe 20?

 

[JackD]

why should other people's business even matter to you

If i had to guess, i would say that it is because human behavior fascinates me. A little known fact about us psychology students is that we are just so interested in why other people do things. This thread has become more complicated than i intended. The bottom line is that i have always wondered why people so often just give up on their goals, even when their is no reason to. The way i see it, this is just another example of that. My guess as to why is laziness but who really knows? I think another possibility is that people in general are easily discouraged by seemingly difficult challenges. Even if it is in their means to over come these challenges. Most of my classmates probably really do want to become doctors and i am sure that many of them are smart enough to do so. I just wonder why they don't. I've seen so many people do this. My father, for example, is a very intelligent man (confirmed by an IQ test) and he always wanted to go to law school. He just never did, even when he had the opportunity. I always wonder why so many people have goals, have the ability to achieve them, but don't.

That isn't what i find humorous. I find it somewhat funny when students get really cocky but then get C's. Kind of like those guys who act like they are a ladies man but never actually get dates. Basically, if you make lofty claims, make sure you can deliver. That is why i never say things like "when i'm in graduate school" or "in a few years, when i am a doctor." It is better to stay focused and stay conservative than to act like nothing can stop you.

This doesn't make you any better or worse than them.

Which i have said many times, in this thread.

so you're maybe 20?

22. I have been doing the whole undergrad thing for awhile. There are very few people who are undergrads who have been doing it for as long as me. I mean, four and half years is about as much experience as you can have at this level of education. Certainly my knowledge of how things work is far greater than someone who is 18 or 19, right? Those three or four years can make quite a difference. Just like how someone who was maybe 26 or 27 would know more about all of this stuff than i do. Certainly i am younger than most of you but i am a bit older than most of them.

As for my fellow upperclassmen, i'm not sure what their excuse is. They should know better.

 

[JockNerd]

For one, their not working hard does not hurt you, it only helps your chances if they do actually apply to grad programs.

It helps more driven people get into grad programs, but it doesn't help the field in general. We SHOULD all be competitive. We should all be striving to be the best, and the higher the bar goes up the better our field becomes. I like that my cohort is full of brilliant people--I need to put in more than the minimum amount of effort to excel, because my cohort sets the bar for dedication and intelligence very high.

 

[michalita]

It helps more driven people get into grad programs, but it doesn't help the field in general. We SHOULD all be competitive. We should all be striving to be the best, and the higher the bar goes up the better our field becomes. I like that my cohort is full of brilliant people--I need to put in more than the minimum amount of effort to excel, because my cohort sets the bar for dedication and intelligence very high.

I agree with you there.

I do think, however, that there is a "default" or an assumption by many who go to college that a Psychology (and Sociology) major is easy and if people don't know what to major in, they sometimes just "end up" in Psychology. So... basically what I'm saying is that they don't necessarily end up in the field at all, just in school.

And yes, many have absolutely no idea how much work goes into graduate school. I think that is just ignorance based on lack of experience and awareness.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I go to work all day and come back, and the thread explodes! 😱

Eh, just another day at SDN.

😀

 

[JackD]

I go to work all day and come back, and the thread explodes! 😱

Eh, just another day at SDN.

😀

Its everyone's fault but mine.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Its everyone's fault but mine.

You sound like one of my patients.



(j/k)

 

[empathiosis]

As I was reading this thread incompetence theory came to mind. Are any of you familiar with that? Basically, it states that people who are incompetent think they're just great and are doing really well because they're incompetent. And because they're incompetent they have poor judgment and can't tell they're incompetent. I'm sort of butchering the theory, so here's the actual study published in JPSP:

Here's the study published in JPSP: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

So JackD, it's not that your classmates are lazy and stupid. They just lack the metacognitive and self-monitoring skills to realize what's going on.

 

[zhenka11230]

Fundamental Attribution Error *cough*

Have you ever thought that perhaps they are just UNSURE what they want to do and thus are not motivated enough to get As. Not everyone is lucky enough to have to enthusiasm for a particular field. You have to agree that it is much easier to get As when you know for sure what you want to do.

 

[JackD]

Fundamental Attribution Error *cough*

Have you ever thought that perhaps they are just UNSURE what they want to do and thus are not motivated enough to get As. Not everyone is lucky enough to have to enthusiasm for a particular field. You have to agree that it is much easier to get As when you know for sure what you want to do.

Well we can't say for sure that they aren't enthusiastic and just have a disconnect between their goals and their actions. The only way we could ever answer any of these questions is to actually ask all 65 or so students, which i am not going to do.

However, despite the clear reservations in the way i framed this issue, you all have to admit, it is an intriguing question. If it wasn't, none of you would even spend time trying to shame me for the use of colorful words like "lazy" or "stupid". On some level, you all want to know: What is the reason for this disconnect? We have probably seven or eight different hypotheses as to what the answer is. Chide me all you want but the fundamental question posed in this thread is a valid one and clearly, we aren't quite sure which answer if correct.

 

[Ollie123]

As not-pc as it may be to say so, I actually agree with the laziness statement.

There are some people who may struggle due to it just being a difficult topic, due to other life circumstances, etc. However I can honestly say I am disgusted at the enormous lack of effort many undergrads seem to put in. And I don't think not really knowing what you want to do is a good excuse. If you don't go to class, you're never going to find out if you like the material or not - perhaps that's WHY some of these people don't know what they want to do.

Personally, I think its a function of a society and educational system that operates under the belief "If someone fails at something, its the systems fault for setting the bar too high". Its a system that perpetuates sloth. Its true in the HS, and people don't change that much in college. In many cases I think it actually gets worse because the people who DID have parental pressure to work hard often no longer have it.

Sorry - I know I don't have the most PC views on the issue, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. College was a nightmare for me because classes got dragged down to the point where many people don't even NEED to study because many people were unwilling to do any work because it interfered with their partying. There are few things I find more annoying than people with absolutely no drive in life.

 

[myelin]

just a guess here, but when the prof asked the class "who plans on going to graduate school," the majority of students likely raised their hands because it was a socially acceptable answer. this is a problem in research, especially in interviews as the subject doesn't want the experimenter to have a bad opinion of them. the same goes for this situation.

regardless, what's the real point of this thread? i feel a condescending tone towards your fellow classmates. if you really plan on going to graduate school, it would be wise to start allying with the other students instead of talking behind the backs of the others who aren't doing very well in the class. you'd be the man if you announced to the class that since the class average on the last test was in the low 70s, that you'd like to host a study group before the next test to help out.

 

[cara susanna]

With the exception of someone who doesn't know English, I don't believe this is anything but an irrational thought.

Or they just suck at math and logic.

 

[psybee]

there's also the fact that within the members of one psychology class, there are many many different reasons why they decided to go to college in the first place, and what they think the point of an undergraduate education is.

some students come to school with the primary interest of learning. maybe they are confident in their ability, and their career goals get to take a backseat to their intellectual interests. maybe their career goals and intellectual interests are already well formed and matched, so it's easy to be truly invested in the experience. maybe they don't have any goals, but don't have any anxieties about their lack of goals either (family money, denial, whatever) and so, while they enjoy learning and that is their main interest in their classes, outcomes don't matter much too them (and thus testing doesn't either). they may say they are interested in psychology grad school, but that interest may be firm, or conditional, may be based on intellectual but not practical interest, or maybe on whim.

other students go to college for the express interest in getting a job when they come out. some may not know how college major/education meshes with that goal, some may not care about their grades because their sole goal is the BA/BS/BFA whatever, and they just don't get that the degree is just a piece of paper without the education behind it -- if you can't think and write, you will quickly lose that job, or be stuck on the bottom rungs, despite that diploma.

many many students come into the field of psychology with the totally wrong idea of what psychology is. they think they'll get to talk about pathology and fascinating case studies all day, and are totally disappointed (and do poorly) when they get neurons and action potentials and vision research and stroop tests. they may be interested in the "sexy" aspects of psych as seen in pop culture, and so say "yes, i'd love to go to grad school on psych!" only later to learn about all the other factors (that i think are fun!) but others may not.

in short, i think that there are a lot of reasons why students do poorly in undergrad and why they overestimate their outcomes or competencies, including and outside of the broad term "laziness". in general, many students would do much better if it was more accepted for 18 year olds who do not really know way they want to go to school, and do not have strong goals, outside of wanting to be part of the social life of college, to take a year or two off and work or attended part time. it's a common refrain among us untrads that school is so much more meaningful and one does much better, despite having extra "adult responsibilities" if you know why you're there.

jackd, are you part of any psych clubs or societies? i think a great way of getting involved would be to try to give a talk at intro classes about the realities of psychology, or even host a discussion about the purpose of the psychology major and it's general importance in undergraduate ed. this may help with the problem of students pursuing the major who perhaps should not, and thus diluting the educational experience for more directed students like yourself. in general, i think we can all agree that a lot of education still needs to be done to spread understanding of what psychology is and is not, not only to improve education, but also to better communicate about what psychologists do and what we can provide to increase knowledge and reduce human suffering as a whole.

also, whether laziness or whatever is part of the problem, and whether is is pc to use that term or not, if your ultimate career goals include teaching, you will not be a good teacher if this is how you view your students. the class you're in, with so many lazy students? those will be your students, and you will burn out and become miserable if you see the situation in that light. you can't have a meaningful relationship with people you don't respect.

 

[JackD]

many many students come into the field of psychology with the totally wrong idea of what psychology is. they think they'll get to talk about pathology and fascinating case studies all day, and are totally disappointed (and do poorly) when they get neurons and action potentials and vision research and stroop tests. they may be interested in the "sexy" aspects of psych as seen in pop culture, and so say "yes, i'd love to go to grad school on psych!" only later to learn about all the other factors (that i think are fun!) but others may not.

That could definitely be one reason. I guess what i often forget is that many of these classes have one prerequisite and that is "intro to psychology." For many of these students, a class in psychopathology, personality psychology, social psychology could very well be their second class involving psychology. Maybe many are getting into these classes and thinking "this class sucks. Why are we talking about assessment, statistics, and cellular activity, what does this have to do with psychology?"

Maybe the fact that i have taken a dozen or so psychology courses, have a good idea of what the field entails, and have such a high interest in this area, makes me forget that many of these people are not in the same situation as me. Maybe i am looking at their performance in terms of my situation. If i was visiting graduate schools and hanging around here getting advice and was nearly done earning my BS in psychology but was getting C's on everything, that would look bad.

Perhaps you are correct. Maybe most of these student are just not like me. Maybe where they are is wildly different than where i am. That actually sort of reminds me of when i used to have classes where graduate students would teach for some of the lessons and they always had an attitude of like "why aren't these students understanding any of this? Why do they all seem bored? This is an amazing subject, what is wrong with these people?"

jackd, are you part of any psych clubs or societies?

I am but it is a far more passive organization. We just typically wait for people to come to us and since i have little free time, i'm not going to plot out a discussion with the hundreds of students in intro to psychology classes.

if your ultimate career goals include teaching, you will not be a good teacher

I might be somewhat insulted by that statement if teaching was something i wanted to do. However, i can think of few things in this world i would rather do less than become an instructor.

 

[psybee]

if your ultimate career goals include teaching, you will not be a good teacher if this is how you view your students. the class you're in, with so many lazy students? those will be your students, and you will burn out and become miserable if you see the situation in that light. you can't have a meaningful relationship with people you don't respect.

jackd, i know you read my whole statement. i certianly DID NOT say "you will not be a good teacher, period, end of statement". if your goals are research, you will have real problems if you take the work of others out of context in order to meet your needs.

 

[biogirl215]

Being friends with a grad. student has certainly disabused me of any notions I ever had that grad. school could be anything but extremely hard. My friend is on internship now and apologized for not being in touch lately, saying she's so overworked that even in her free time, she just wants to stare at a blank wall to debrief. 😱😱

 

[deleted106747]

As not-pc as it may be to say so, I actually agree with the laziness statement.

There are some people who may struggle due to it just being a difficult topic, due to other life circumstances, etc. However I can honestly say I am disgusted at the enormous lack of effort many undergrads seem to put in. And I don't think not really knowing what you want to do is a good excuse. If you don't go to class, you're never going to find out if you like the material or not - perhaps that's WHY some of these people don't know what they want to do.

Personally, I think its a function of a society and educational system that operates under the belief "If someone fails at something, its the systems fault for setting the bar too high". Its a system that perpetuates sloth. Its true in the HS, and people don't change that much in college. In many cases I think it actually gets worse because the people who DID have parental pressure to work hard often no longer have it.

Sorry - I know I don't have the most PC views on the issue, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. College was a nightmare for me because classes got dragged down to the point where many people don't even NEED to study because many people were unwilling to do any work because it interfered with their partying. There are few things I find more annoying than people with absolutely no drive in life.

I can see what you're saying here. There is a certain element of people not taking responsibility for themselves. When I first went back to undergrad at age 27 I had one class that was SO frustrating. The students were openly rude to the professor, they acted put out if they were expected to do any kind of work whatsoever, and many skipped the class regularly. They then complained about their low scores. We had a group project - only one person in the group of five attended the meeting that we set up. One student complained to me that the professor was terrible because he failed the exam. I asked him, did you study? No. Did you visit the professor in his office hours to discuss the material? No. Well then what did you expect?? I might add that this guy was 31 years old.
I know that there are other reasons why people don't do well, and in my work with such a client I would explore these other things - fear, frustration, not wanting to be there, perfectionism, learning disability, etc. But I'd also approach it from a personal responsibility angle. And also from the approach that sometimes failing is the best thing for you. When I first went to undergraduate, I'm not going to lie, I had the attitude that I didn't have to read or study. And my first college chem test score came back - a bright, shining, beautiful "D." That was a wake up call - college is, and should be, a whole different ball game than high school. I'd been an A student in high school with little or no effort...now I had to find a tutor, study late into the nights, and do all of the readings. I think that if one is not willing to do that, then grad school, med school, law school, etc., these are all going to be out of reach. Unless one is just naturally brilliant 🙂 which I suppose happens, but those are the very lucky few!!

 

[psybee]

One student complained to me that the professor was terrible because he failed the exam. I asked him, did you study? No. Did you visit the professor in his office hours to discuss the material? No. Well then what did you expect?? I might add that this guy was 31 years old.!

i have had this expereince over and over at my school. sigh. i wrote a bit earlier about how, i percieve anyway, there are no clear agreed upon reasons why one would go to college, and that results in students with varying investments in thier education, and beliefs about the value if education.

i think another big part of that is the consumer mentality that a lot of students have, where they think "i paid tuition, so i should get an A". if they put in the money, they should get a product (an A, or a degree) when if fact what you get for the $$ is the opportunity to learn. you transform that 30k or whatever into whatever you want -- lifelong opportunity or lifelong debt. this can be really tough to teach to, though, and goes back to the previous discussion, of the problems that can occur when you have some students that genuinely love learning, some that are in school because that's what one does when high school is over, and some that want a degree so they can get better jobs. supporting yourself and your family is totally valid, and if that's your goal, sitting and learning about psychophysics may seem like the biggest waste of time ever, and it would be an enormous challenge to communicate why that is, in fact, not the case, while not neglecting your more advanced students.

 

[erg923]

I realize this thread is mostly talking about people who are already in college (i.e., choosing an education) and seeming to lack drive. However, this is more of a comment on the overall "vibe" I get from this thread:

I think that as individuals who are all involved in academia and intellectual pursuits, we sometimes forget that there are people who aren't interested in "intellectual stuff", and simply don't care about it....AND, THAT THIS IS PERFECTLY OK! For example, in a previous post JackD stated that he is perplexed by the fact that some people can be presented with opportunities for intellectual pursuits/advancement and not take them. While this is a legitimate question for study within social psychology, I might argue that sometimes, the answer is very simple. THEY DON'T CARE. Sometimes people just want to lead very simple and very comfortable lives, and not be bothered by a bunch of complicated theories and mumbo-jumbo. Sometimes, people just want their jobs to be jobs, and thats all. Sometimes....people just want to live. These people aren't lazy or lacking drive, I might argue that they are just not driven by the same things in life as you. AND THAT IS COOL WITH ME!!! Different strokes for different folks, right? Sometimes I think that some of us (wont name any screennames), are just too caught up in our little academic world to realize that people can be perfectly happy without reading a bunch of books. 🙂

My 2 cents.....

 

[Ollie123]

I think that's a great point, but I just wish those people wouldn't come to college anyways, and then disrupt things (either by actually being disruptive in class, or just by dragging down the class content as they whine about getting Cs when they don't do any work).

I have no problems with someone choosing a simpler life. God knows I wish I had gone for that nice easy 9-5 business job after college on some days. I DO have a problem with the rest of us having to suffer because they chose to pursue a path incongruent with that desire.

The real problem isn't the folks who don't have intellectual goals/desires. The problem is the folks who don't have intellectual goals/desires but seem to expect all the advantages of that path anyways, even if it creates problems for other people.