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Because, probably, there aren't that many places open in Australia for all the people who want to get an offshore med education. And the airfare is cheaper from the Carib to the States than from Australia.
Mr Ed: I found your question rather offensive. Every year about 2,000+ Americans start their Med Education in the Caribbean, as compared to maybe 50? 100? in Australia. My wife just finished MS-2 at AUC. She went there with GPA 3.85 Biology U of Houston. The education she received is very comparable to US schools. And in 1.5 years, she is back in USA in my arms again (vs. 4-years? in Aussieland or 5 where Guinness comes from) Good luck to you, Andre Gurses, MS, MBA, PE
Care to comment what percent of those 2000+ Americans get accepted to US residencies? Andre, how can you say for sure that your wife has received a comparable education, if neither of you has been to a US school? I'm not saying that she hasn't, I just want to know what means of comparison you are using. Board pass rates? Residency match rates? You come on this board and try to scare pre-meds into going foreign by saying things like they must have a 32-35 MCAT to get into a US school, and then offer nothing to back it up. You get offended when the medical education at off-shore schools is questioned, but you offer nothing to back it up.
UHS03: To my knowledge, the big 3 (AUC, St George's and Ross) accept over 1,500 Americans each year. Yes, only about 50% manages to Graduate. But then, almost ALL manages to get a US Residency somehow.. Match, scramble, pre-match offer.. mostly FP or IM.. It doesn't matter. At the end, they GET to be Doctors.. And majority of them are more compassionate than their US counterparts. During my wife's semester breaks back to Texas, we got together with several of her U of Houston classmates, who managed to get in Texas schools. They compared notes & cases. My wife always came out as knowledgeable, if not better, than all others.. They all read the SAME books; and most AUC profs are USA trained. Care to apologize? Andre
I don't see where I have anything to apologize for. I was simply asking what standards you were using to compare the schools. I do take issue with your scare tactics, unintentional they may be, and I simply do not believe your wife's experience represents that for the typical student...she is obviously a very hard worker. I never looked into foreign schools myself, so I am only giving my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, but it will take more than anecdotal evidence to convince me of the OVERALL equality of the schools (meaning compare the entire student body in terms of board scores, and residency matching.) Of course you can take top students and showboat them as a good "representation" of the school, but I seriously doubt your wife represents the majority. I wish her luck, and I'm sure she'll do fine.
"And majority of them are more compassionate than their US counterparts."
I take issue with this assertion (among others). There is no way anyone could state something like that and be able to back it up. It would also be interesting to see your "proof" regarding the Carib schools' alleged parity with US schools. I also doubt that on the whole, these students are comparable to US MD/DO grads.
The fact that some of these schools do not require the MCAT and that they generally seem to be more interested in a student's credit rating than their gpa, mcat and recs suggests that these schools do not have the same educational mission as US schools. I'm sure your wife is very bright, but like the above poster said, she is probably not representative of IMGs.
By the way, it is completely untrue that a person needs a 32-35 to get into a US med school. I know quite a few students who got in with <30 at various schools.
This is the second time I have seen your posts questioning the education IMG's are receiving in off-shore schools.
I say this reluctantly, but I believe you to be biased.
As a practicing physician, I can say without any hesitation that students of St. George's, AUC, and Ross can and do receive an education on par with many Allopathic and Osteopathic programs on the mainland US.
The faculty at these off-shore programs are often older biomedical science faculty with tenure at a major university. These off-shore schools house, pay and provide an caribbean vacation in exchange for the lecturing experience.
What you are failing to understand is this. The caribbean schools are in the business to make money. Therefore they accept students that may be marginal in their academic profiency. That is not to say they are not being exposed to a wonderul education. They are experiencing a truly solid medical education, the reason for the high failure rate of these programs should be examined in the context of the students they are admitting. A truly motivated student at an off-shore school can achieve anything he or she desires. They are very well prepared for clinical clerkships.
The recent USMLE I pass rates of St. George's Students were higher than 60% of the allopathic programs in the states. What does that tell you of quality of education?
Your interest in a foreign education seems obvious, in that you do post frequently on the International forum. I am just curious, why? Do you have a problem with the efforts these schools use in making money?
Not in the least. I know one foreign grad who is a very successful vascular surgeon, so I am aware that it is possible to receive good training there. My post in this forum (which I usually do not post to) was motivated by one of the above posters' scare tactics directed at pre-medical students. Specifically claiming that unless you score exceptionally high on the MCAT (32-35) they will not get into a US school. I took issue with that statement, as well as I take issue with any unsubstantiated claims of a general nature. I simply was asking for some means of comparison so that I could see how the quality of education was being compared. You provided some of that, and I appreciate it. My issue is not with FMG's, it is more based on principle. I apologize to everyone if I come across as "biased", that is not my intent.
To the doubters out there, While I can't comment on whether going offshore for your medical education will make you a more compassionate physician, but as someone who matriculated at SGU and then transfered to a US med school I can tell you that the quality of education in the carib (I can only comment on SGU) is definately comparable to US schools. On top of that , the labs and the housing were better at St Georges than the school I transfered to. For clinical spots, SGU students rotated at many of the same hospitals that Downstate, UMDNJ, NY Med, and NYU students rotated at. They also have spots in Michigan, Maryland, and CA (don't know much about them though) Basically my take on the situation is, if you really (and I mean REALLY) want to be a doctor, and you don't get into a US school, and don't want to do the DO thing, ESTABLISHED offshore schools are a viable last resort. (Of course, if you cant get into SGU, RO$$ or AUC then you might want to reconsider your career choice.)
By the way, To the original poster (Mr ed) The reason why established off shore schools are a better choice than going to Australia is that you can do most if not all of your clinicals in the US. That makes all the difference in the world when you are applying for residency (you do want to get back to the states right?) If you were a residency director, who would you want to hire? Some guy from Australia who he's never seen before, or someone who has: 1)rotated at his hospital (or other hospitals in the US) 2)has letters of rec from docters that he knows and 3)comes from a school that has consistantly produced students who are good house officers Just something to think about
Thanks for that info. I don't mean to be negative about the Carribean schools - just that Australia could be a better option because it doesn't seem to have negative image that some people have about the Carribean. As far as I know some of those things that you wrote about are also possible from Australia. I am being interviewed by Flinders soon. They have 100% pass rate on USMLE, you can do 4th year rotations in the US (up to 3 I think)and as far as i can establish, their graduates are doing well in the match - one even got an orthopedic residency! Which all sounds good to me. Do you think from your experience that residency directors would think that a graduate from the Carribean would be better than a graduate from Australia? Thanks for your thoughts. Edward
Hello, Mr. Ed, since you said that you are being interviewed by Flinders soon, could you please tell me how their application process is. Is it too late to apply for fall 2000? May I ask you what other places you have applied to? I am considering Sackler, Charles University, and Guadalajara. PB
Andre sounds awful lot like a recruiter for AUC, and Taylor DO seems to know a lot about off shore schools for a guy who went to a DO school (he's keeping up with USMLE pass rate for SGU and all that).
"And the majority of them are more compassionate than their US counterparts."?? And this is based on..?? Is there some inverse relationship between intelligence and compassion? I love the stereotype of the driven, uncaring med school student whose life's obsession is to become a wealthy specialist who could give a damn about those meddlesome patients. The only better one is the figure of the unfairly persecuted med school applicant. The most caring, compassionate person ever to walk the earth. This person epitomizes everything right in medicine (and the world for that matter) only those faceless, uncaring AdComs cannot see that our med school applicant embodies true COMPASSION.
Hmmm... How bout this for reality. There is no shortage of applicants who are both intelligent and compassionate. In fact, their commitment and love for becoming a physician actually manifests itself in a work ethic resulting in stellar grades and a true love for helping others (be it in a medical setting or third world country or just collecting canned goods for the local homeless shelter). And because they have done the aforemetioned- they only need to score in the 60th percentile of the MCAT.
Therefore, if they possess a minimum level of innate intelligence they will do well on their MCAT. And if they don't they one: look for other careers that will fullfill their compassionate souls b/c they realize there are thousands of more intelligent applicants who are perhaps better suited to save lives. Or two: go to medical school offshore graciously (i.e. have the decency not to blanketly insult US meds students for lacking "compassion" or some other subjective emotion because they (or their spouse) need to validate themselves as doctors.)
Very well stated. I have a feeling this Andre is a recruiter. I can't think of any other reason (besides the one you noted) that a person would be throwing around such wild claims and exaggerations about these schools.
Mr. ed, Does it really matter what people think if you graduated from an off shore school, or a 'legit' school in Australia, or Ireland or Isreal? The bottom line is that Americans go to those schools because they didn't get into a US med school. Residency directors know that. My point is that if you decide that the foreign route is your best (or only) choice, wouldn't it be better to do you entire 3rd and 4th years back in the States, rather than only 3 months in your 4th year? Also, even if you live in CA, Australia is FAR from here, trust me, you'll get homesick. Regarding you question on the thoughts of residency directors, I really cant comment on whether residency directors think that carib studs are 'better' and Aussie studs. What I can say is that doctors are conservative people. They prefer the known to the unknown. If you spend two years rotating at US hospitals (and you are not a total f**k-up!) residency directors will get to know you, either through directly working under them or through other doctors that they know or at least heard of. I truly believe this would give you an advantage.
"And majority of them are more compassionate than their US counterparts"
As a soon-to-be U.S. training medical student, I am insulted by this statement. Unless you have an objective means of subtantiating this claim (which I would like to see) you are making assumptions and jumping to conclusions based on your own, extremely limited, experience. I believe it is you who owes us an appology.
Also, I take exception to your claim that one must have MCAT scores 32-35 to get into US schools- simply untrue.
I am left to wonder why you would make the MCAT claim when it is easily researched and clearly false. What is your agenda? If what you have previously posted is true, your infomation is mostly 2nd hand (from your wife), so you haven't even been through the application process! It is clear to me that you are biased toward carribbean schools vs. US schools. Why? Again, what is your agenda?
I don't mean to get in your face, Andre, but your credibility is a stake here. Are you simply misguided and overly-biased, or are you intentionally misleading people for some benefit to yourself? Either way, I think you owe everyone an appology and then you need to come back to reality if you care to share anything of value on this board!
[This message has been edited by dlbruch (edited 03-28-2000).]
While I can not speak for anyone but myself, I take offense to the charge of being something I am not.
My post on the quality of education provided by off-shore schools was an attempt to demonstrate that students do graduate from such programs and develop into quality physicians.
I am an osteopathic physician. First and foremost. I am however an attending physician at an allopathic hospital. We depend on IMG's to a large degree to staff our programs that are not as attractive to the top US allopathic graduates.
Hence, as a part of my function for my hospital, I think it to be imperative that I have a firm understanding of the quality of education provided to IMG's as they tend to be the physicians we train.
Make no mistake about it. There is no comparison between a top 25 US allopathic institution and a caribbean school. The resources available to US allopathic insitutions is vast, and there is not a single off-shore program that can compete with that.
However, that does not mean that students attending foreign schools are not exposed to a quality education, lectured to by first class faculty, and given solid clinical exposure.
That was my original intention of my first post on this subject.
The comment about me "knowing too much about SGU's board rates" was a cheap shot, and ill-informed.
Is this what dicussing medicine has deteriorated to? I used to think that people who are going to enter this noble profession were above this type of banter. Sad. I think it would be nice if pre-professionals/professionals could debate in a more respectful arena regarding others opinions.
Ive posted several places in this forum only because things seem spread out a bit. but I do want to make a point here. I graduated sgu and I have to say they treated me well. I am in internship at Upstate Medical and next year I go to Johns Hopkins for rt-oncology; I do want to reiterate a point someone else made; at several foreign schools you have to be careful in that they boast high pass rates but what they dont tell you (and why would you think to ask) is that only, say, 50% make it to the boards-others are held back failed ect. I can confirm at SGU 90% take the boards in a timely manner (ie with the rest of their class). So of these the pass rate for us citizens is 95% (maybe 94%-I forget what it was this year). I agree with Dr. Taylor. DO, IMG (of the 'big three anyway') fine docs come out of these places. I disagree about the resources if what Dr Taylor was refering to was facilities; SGU has more modern facilities than most US schools; the new anatomy, neuro and histo labs are something to behold. I worked at Mount Sinai and in terms of basic sci facilities, no contest; same for here at Upstate. SGU wins hands down. In terms of opportunities; yes, the IMG and DO does have to go the extra mile if you want a competitive program; great boards, LORs, and motivation. If applying to a foreign school, Just be sure to ask the question-how many MAKE it to the boards in the scheduled manner of time. And to everyone, all the best, Steph