Am I stupid?

[TouchOfGrey]

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Hi-
I have been accepted to BGU and Technion, waiting on Sackler. I love Israel, and have a strong family connection. I think there are aspects of these programs that are really cool (theses, small classes, Int'l options/flexibility), and it seems like a great adventure, rather than the conventional med school experience.

I'm just not sure if it matters where I go. I am also accepted at Tulane in New Orleans, and am waiting on UVM, Downstate, some other spots. Is it dumb for me to consider Israel? I don't want to discriminate, but MCAT's and GPA avgs. are a lot lower than mine. This prob. doesn't reflect too much on the intelligence of the students, or the quality of the programs....that's what I want to believe I guess. But could this really, really be true? Am I just being too, I don't know, PC?

If you guys had my options/stats, would you even consider Israel? Why, if you don't have any connection there? Or is it simply that they are really the only "respected" degrees outside the US (maybe Ireland?)????

Thanks for your input.

 

[ROBINHO]

What is your long term plan???That is very important. U can choose to go abroad for various reasons....intl experience, new culture,family connections, adventure etc but later down the road there are consequences that u shd be ready to face.
For example...do u plan to return to the USA to do residency?
Are u aware that it is harder for u returning from abroad to get into a competitive residency(if that is what u want) than if u were to do MEdicine in the USA???
These are some of the basics u must be ready for. Sometimes u go abroad u enjoy the adventure but u must understand that sometimes at abroad the education isn't tailored to the USMLE and u would have to work extra hard to have stellar scores in the USMLE, publish etc and make yourself a strong IMG candidate.
If u are aware of these consequences and u think new adventures and Intl experience is more important then go for it. The only that can't happen is regretting later down the hill when things become difficult when u try to return to the states for your dream residency. In either ways u can be sucessful, however u gotta make the decision becos u know yourself better(caability and what u want in life)

 

[Candlestick Man]

Hi TouchOfGrey, I am in a similar position (but no acceptances yet) - I've applied to BGU but I'm waiting on a number of US interviews. I want to go into international health, and I'm trying very hard to decide if BGU would give me a better education in that field - would it make me more competitive for those relatively few residencies in the US that have international tracks - or help me more down the road? I have no idea. And would it have more opportunities than the US schools I applied to that have international health programs (such as UWSOM). Tulane has a good int'l health program too, right? I love living abroad, and don't want to choose a school because of its numbers or ranking - but no one here seems to have an informed opinion. It feels like a huge decision.

I know that's no help, but I'm in the same bind at least.

 

[Starfish1976]

I hate to be cliche, but sometimes the journey is more important than the destination...I would say that ALL schools are going to give you a decent education, and ALL schools will provide you with opportunity if you know where to look for them. Med school is a 4-year committment. Pick a place you will enjoy and get the most out of those 4 years...not just from an educational point of view, but from the other aspects of your life as well.

I am a Canadian student choosing to go to BGU - this is a huge leap of faith for me, because it is quite problematic returning to Canada for residency, etc. Everyone here at home thinks I am insane for passing up a Canadian medical education, but I have been working in international health for a lot of years now, and I can't stand the thought of being "trapped" in Canada for 3 or 4 consecutive years. Going to Israel means I still get to have an adventure, learn about a new country, new cultures, meet other like-minded students from all over the world...and to me, these things are just as important (if not more!) than the quality of education I will get. I just believe that no matter what school you go to, you'll get what you put into it. And it will all work out in the end. 🙂

Fluffly I know, but something to think about! 🙂

 

[TopDocChick]

Is OB/GYN considered a competitive residency?

 

[cleothecat]

If you want to practice in North America, or get into competitive residencies, the choice is obvious.

North American schools>>>>>>>>> Israeli schools

Do not giv eup an acceptanc eat any NA school to go overseas.

 

[wiscobadger]

grads of sackler place into residencies in the states every year, you get an american degree which means youll be able to practice medicine in the US...the alum that interviewed me is an OB/GYN at university of chicago medical school

since you have options, go with the location that would make you more happy...and if you chose to come to israel it doesn't make you stupid...in the end we're all going to be doctors

 

[mirmaid959]

TOuch of Grey, did you interview in person at the Technion?

 

[sharkchaser47]

Hey, I'm a second-year at BGU right now. I can tell you that if you're shooting for a really competitive residency like neurology, or derm you'll probably be better off in a US school. However, if you're looking for Internal, Family, Peds, Ob/Gyn, even ER then coming to Israel won't necessarily hinder your chances of getting those programs. I can only speak for BGU, but they are preparing us for the USMLE. Also, many people in my classes gave up acceptances to good US school in order to come here because they wanted the extra international health curriculum and experience that you don't get at US programs. Each of the US-programs in Israel have their own feel and style. Sackler is very much like any traditional US school. BGU is more of the hippie, study by systems and problem-based-learning approach. I don't know what Technion is like. It's important to consider what learning style suites you better, as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[NewGradGA]

here check out this post, it is the information I have gathered about BGU as no one from sackler has yet to contact or discuss with me their program outside the confines of the interview brochure and website

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=486013

the things I hear on this post are not true from the people I have spoken with at BGU

asides from the international health curriculum, I understand that there is NO problem based learning

also I think it would be wise to have an idea of what you want to do as mentioned before, you dont have to be exact but no one type of future you want to have, there are plenty of self tests you can do that will put you into a category of what field of medicine/surgery would most suit your personality

also the NRMP for 2007 is a good breakdown of what is competitive and what is not, Emergency Medicine IS competitive and is gaining in its competitiveness, neurology is not competitive AT ALL i dont know why that was mentioned, unless you mean pediatric neurology, ob/gyn is competitive for women, not for men, for obvious equality reasons, but is still considered semi-competitive

😀

 

[IzzyMD09]

To anyone with questions about BGU please ask and talk to actual people that go to the school, Jones173, and Sharkchaser, and I are students here, we can answer any of your questions to all incoming members,

Sometimes you can't really trust what is being said on these posts, because everyone can hide behind a fake screen name.

Yes there may be some discrepancies between whatever website is up about our school and what actually goes on here, the bottom line is that over the past 3 years, since my class first arrived there have been numerous changes, a re-designed curriculum, and a brand new approach to international health. Sometimes some of the things we lack are annoying yes, but the overall experience the hardships and the challenges are what is going to make us better doctors.

Where else could I have gone, that when I left I could say....YES I helped change my school, my opinions were listened to, and the curriculum changed to reflect what I and my peers deemed imperative to our futures as international health practicioners. I couldnt say that if i were in a class of 150 at some US medical school with a bajillion administrators that wouldnt even give me the time of day. The dean of our school knows me personally (maybe cause it was I that one that poster from the NIH thanks Sharky), and he helps me out a lot. I think that would be hard for others to say.

So please to all future BGUers feel free to PM me or the others I listed with regards to questions about the school.

Izzy

 

[jones173]

HI EVERYONE,

I am a third year here at BGU and the reality is that if you plan on doing something competitive like derm, rads, optha, neurosurgery, or orthopedics, Sackler is a better choice since they have landed residencies in a few of those fields. However, our school continues to do better and better in the match each year. Sackler has been around for 25+ years so they are more well known as our program has only been around for 10 or so.

Now keep in mind that we have done extremely well in terms of primary care. We are a primary care school. Most of the people that come here want to work in areas globally which are in tremendous need of primary care. These include specialties like Family, IM, Peds, and Ob/gyn. Now we have matched anesthesia several times and have done pretty well in EM. EM has gotten more and more compeitive over the last few years, however, we continue to match well. Student jsut need to apply more broadly. We have two students who just interviewed at a bunch of places for Gen surg if that is what you are interested in. We have matched at great university hospitals in the US in all of the primary care fields. Look at the match list if you are curious.

Point being is that our reputation in the states is VERY good and the knowledge of our program is slowly growing. We are not well known in the more competitive circles since our grads, just by nature, are not interested in those fields.

From what I hear from the fourth years and previous grads, we got back with superior clincal skills to the US than our peers. The teaching focus here is strong. Now I am not saying that every rotation is perfect by any means, just as it is not in the states. But from what I have heard, many US students spend their third year clerking and working, however they are not learning. Here all you do is learn third year and you are ONLY taught by attending physicians, rather than busy interns or residents. Most of our teachers are well published as Soroka is a univeristy hospital.

PM me if any of you have more questions.

 

[ijcMD]

In regards to why no one from Sackler has commented or replied to you is that we are in the middle of finals, as January is the month for such that during your first and second years here.

I have to get back to studying, but what I will say is this. All three american programs in Israel will get you to what you want to be-- a doctor. There is no question that Sackler is the most well-known in regards to residency (due to it's program running the longest). People go to BGU for a very different reason than they go to Sackler. Technion students are more simliar to Sackler students.

Tel Aviv, Haifa and Ber'Sheva are very different cities. There is a vibrant nightlife/cosmopolitan-esque atmosphere to Tel Aviv. If that is important to you, you may not be as happy in Haifa or Ber'Sheva.

Also, I have found that in Tel Aviv the majority of people I have to interact with have a fairly good foundation in English so that communications aren't dramatically hindered by not being able to speak hebrew fluently.

here check out this post, it is the information I have gathered about BGU as no one from sackler has yet to contact or discuss with me their program outside the confines of the interview brochure and website

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=486013

the things I hear on this post are not true from the people I have spoken with at BGU

asides from the international health curriculum, I understand that there is NO problem based learning

also I think it would be wise to have an idea of what you want to do as mentioned before, you dont have to be exact but no one type of future you want to have, there are plenty of self tests you can do that will put you into a category of what field of medicine/surgery would most suit your personality

also the NRMP for 2007 is a good breakdown of what is competitive and what is not, Emergency Medicine IS competitive and is gaining in its competitiveness, neurology is not competitive AT ALL i dont know why that was mentioned, unless you mean pediatric neurology, ob/gyn is competitive for women, not for men, for obvious equality reasons, but is still considered semi-competitive

😀

 

[Big Bill]

Is it to late to apply and still be considered competitive or is the class nearly filled up? Thanx

 

[berrypie]

Just to add to Izzy's post....


I'm a 1st year at BGU and I've been to the Dean's house for dinner with his family (not to mention numerous other professors and administrators...). It's experiences like these that far outweigh the glitches in the school.

I wrote another post in the BGU vs. Sackler forum if you want to read a more detailed account of my babbling 🙂

 

[ostensibly]

I am a Sackler grad, in the latter half of residency in NY. You are right to be anxious about studying at a foreign school, esp when you have been accepted in the US. My class had a handful of people who chose Sackler over US schools. Overall, strong students do very well and weaker ones do OK. Meaning, if you do well in med school you will do well in residency placement. I believe that goes for most any med school though. I know some students in my class were just stellar, ace'd the boards and all our exams, but not all of them ended up choosing the RODENT (Rads, Optho, Derm, ENT) residencies. Some did, and they succeeded. most all of us landed our top 3 choices of residency programs.

Sackler education is great, esp the clinical yrs. You are not busy doing scutwork, you are not responsible for pt care or note writing and you dont have much contact w/residents. You do see patients, but as teaching cases w/attendings and department chairs, and you have lectures and present to these them. This is vastly different than any US med school I've ever heard of.

Drawbacks do exist. The Sackler name is not well known in all of the US. many places in the midwest simply have'nt heard of it. Truth is-I believe a huge majority of our grads come from the NY area and that is where they find residencies. So they've paved the way and opened doors for you. Many also go to southern CA. Smaller town programs who may not have heard the name or ever had a grad in the program may hesitate to take you b/c of some foreign grad stigma. But, like I said, stellar students always stick out.

My experience was amazing. I miss medical school, I think our whole class can say they had a great time. Tel Aviv is an amazing city and you have plenty of time to explore the rest of Israel as well. It's not often you get the chance to step outside of your immediate culture/self for such a long time. It's an amazing opportunity. Looking back I would'nt hesitate to make the same decision. I hope this gives you some input. Ultimately, you have to decide what your own life will be.

 

[secretwave101]

There is a vibrant nightlife/cosmopolitan-esque atmosphere to Tel Aviv. If that is important to you, you may not be as happy in Haifa or Ber'Sheva.

Dude, if you're a night-lifer, you'll be MISERABLE in Beer Sheva. Don't even think about it.

Graduated from there in '05 and loved it. Would do it again in a second. Hate all the debt now, which ties me down to the U.S. for my natural life...but I loved it there. On that note, I'm happier I went with each passing day as it becomes increasingly clear that I will be stuck here working off loans no matter where I did med school. Thanks to BGU, at least I got the chance to live outside the U.S. for a few years. Probably the only years.

 

[mirmaid959]

how many years do you think it will take you to pay back your loans?

 

[secretwave101]

My GOAL is 6 years. This is if we eat out of a can and keep driving the cars we have which the two of them together are probably worth $1570 total. IF I can clear us in 6 years...I'll be worth zero dollars. There will be not one single asset to my name other than my kids (in terms of taxes, they actually are some version of an asset).

It seems then I should spend a few years working on some sort of retirement at that point, but due to the magic of compound interest, you understand that I'll need to add much more than most because I didn't start 15 years ago. Then my kids will start college and I doubt I'll have much to help them, but I'll likely want to try rather than live my dreams overseas.

Then I'll be old. And who wants to live overseas when they're old? By then, the early buffet at Denny's and my prostate will dominate my thoughts from 4am till I go to bed that night at 7.

So, 6 years.

 

[jonathani1]

Depressing 🙁

 

[CourbenMD]

Hello Everyone,
I just got accepted to BGU and interviewed at Technion.
I wanted to find out what you guys would choose between Technion and BGU.
I have a preference for BGU, and technion seems like they take themselves pretty seriously.
Any one, feel free to share your feelings about this issue.
Thanks

 

[dondon]

Hello Everyone,
I just got accepted to BGU and interviewed at Technion.
I wanted to find out what you guys would choose between Technion and BGU.
I have a preference for BGU, and technion seems like they take themselves pretty seriously.
Any one, feel free to share your feelings about this issue.
Thanks

this is a bit off topic... but did you find the technion interview to be a bit harsh??

i had an interview with them yesterday and i felt like they were kind of attacking me and trying to push me away from medicine...

 

[CourbenMD]

Yes, they were on attacking mode.
But most importantly the dean didn't know much about the U.S college system which kind of scared me.
Any way I am really scared about my residency options if I go to an Israeli School
Cheers
Ben

 

[SMVMD]

If you want to practice in North America, or get into competitive residencies, the choice is obvious.

North American schools>>>>>>>>> Israeli schools

Do not giv eup an acceptanc eat any NA school to go overseas.

Someone is clearly speaking from their ass. To the thread starter, I am an American student at an Israeli school so I can offer some perspective on the issue.

Israeli-American programs (or at least the callibre of the students) are by no means comparable to Harvard or UCSF in terms of reputation and such. That being said, Israeli-American medical programs are comparable with any decent American medical school and are much cheaper than private schools in the US. My school, for instance, sends graduates into residencies in such select fields as ENT, plastic surgery, anesthesiology, radiology, urology, etc., at such hospitals as Mass General (Harvard), Yale, Emory, Penn, Vanderbilt, Brown, Einstein, Mt Sinai, Rochester, etc. The education you receive here is top notch and, in some ways, exceeds the material covered in the cirriculums at most US med schools. As an IMG, you will have perhaps another obstacle to overcome, but if you do well on your boards, do well in your clinicals and do interesting (i.e., published) research, then I see know reason why it should matter.

My best advice is to consider the following criteria when deciding on a school:
-How have recent graduating classes fared on the match?
-How do their students perform on the USMLE's, especially the Step 1? What % pass? What's the average score?
-What's the academic focus of the school? Bench work? Clinical research? Translational research?
-Tuition? Financial Aid?
-The location of the medical school- is this where you want to spend the next 4yrs of your life?

 

[secretwave101]

I also went to an Israeli school and LOVED the experience. Got a bunch of posts reflecting on my choice, if you want to do a search.

I think categorically stating that US > Israel (or anywhere overseas) is ignorant and reflects an American ethnocentrism that truly annoys much of the rest of the world. If you want optho or derm or maybe plastics, you WORSHIP this specialty, then I'd say pass on the overseas thing. Statistically, you're still likely to get boxed out, but overseas could hurt you. Otherwise, all bets are off. There are excellent programs in other countries and the added perspective of seeing our country from the "outside" is incomparably priceless.

I got my first choice in Family Med, which of course isn't saying too much, but I certainly wasn't hung up by my Israel choice. A number of my classmates turned down UW, Cornell and NYU to come to our school, and they returned to their choice of residencies after their time overseas. One guy turned down UW for school, and they took him for an ER residency later. People got the specialty they wanted - OB, Surg, IM, Peds...and they're now getting strong fellowships too.

If you love to travel, do it. Specialty ain't the only choice in life. 😀

 

[jonathani1]

Someone is clearly speaking from their ass. To the thread starter, I am an American student at an Israeli school so I can offer some perspective on the issue.

Israeli-American programs (or at least the callibre of the students) are by no means comparable to Harvard or UCSF in terms of reputation and such. That being said, Israeli-American medical programs are comparable with any decent American medical school and are much cheaper than private schools in the US. My school, for instance, sends graduates into residencies in such select fields as ENT, plastic surgery, anesthesiology, radiology, urology, etc., at such hospitals as Mass General (Harvard), Yale, Emory, Penn, Vanderbilt, Brown, Einstein, Mt Sinai, Rochester, etc. The education you receive here is top notch and, in some ways, exceeds the material covered in the cirriculums at most US med schools. As an IMG, you will have perhaps another obstacle to overcome, but if you do well on your boards, do well in your clinicals and do interesting (i.e., published) research, then I see know reason why it should matter.

My best advice is to consider the following criteria when deciding on a school:
-How have recent graduating classes fared on the match?
-How do their students perform on the USMLE's, especially the Step 1? What % pass? What's the average score?
-What's the academic focus of the school? Bench work? Clinical research? Translational research?
-Tuition? Financial Aid?
-The location of the medical school- is this where you want to spend the next 4yrs of your life?

SMVD, you mentioned research experience. I will be attending Sackler in the fall. Do you have any tips on getting involved in research at school in Israel? Do you suggest doing research doing the summer at the end of 1st year?

Any advice appreciated.