Am I too late

[jdsob]

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Hi All.
Hope this is the right forum for my question.

I am 33 years old, w a bachelors degree in the humanities (3.7 GPA).
4 years ago I made the decision that I wanted to attend medical school, and spent 2 years taking the necessary pre-reqs at a local college (3.5 GPA). In my last semester, my brother died, leaving me financially responsible for his son and unable to take the MCAT or even consider leaving my job or foregoing overtime at the time. My nephew is now 18 and in college on scholarship.

I recently went through several AAMC practice tests, and am appalled at how little I've retained. I literally feel as if I barely learned any of the material at all, even though it's only been two years since I've seen it. Specifically in the equation based material such as chem, o-chem, and physics. These subjects were difficult for me when I originally took them, and now seem almost alien to me 2 years later.

Is there any comprehensive review program for someone with such a shoddy base that could realistically prepare me for the MCAT? Any suggestions short of retaking most of my classes? Or should I just give up on the dream of being a physician, acknowledge my late start and weak(end) background, and find a good PA program?

Thank you so much for any advice. Really not looking for encouragement, more along the lines of a realistic assessment of my situation.

 

[Goro]

No, it's not too late. Even re-taking the minimum for proper MCAT prep would only take ~ 2 years. Some of my all-time best students have been in their 30s and 40s.

There are also MCAT review courses as well. Examkrackers seems to have a good rep from people on SDN.

Even in the worst-case scenario of you not pursuing medicine, you've been a good uncle, and that's more important than any career.

This is the forum for you, too.

Hi All.
Hope this is the right forum for my question.

I am 33 years old, w a bachelors degree in the humanities (3.7 GPA).
4 years ago I made the decision that I wanted to attend medical school, and spent 2 years taking the necessary pre-reqs at a local college (3.5 GPA). In my last semester, my brother died, leaving me financially responsible for his son and unable to take the MCAT or even consider leaving my job or foregoing overtime at the time. My nephew is now 18 and in college on scholarship.

I recently went through several AAMC practice tests, and am appalled at how little I've retained. I literally feel as if I barely learned any of the material at all, even though it's only been two years since I've seen it. Specifically in the equation based material such as chem, o-chem, and physics. These subjects were difficult for me when I originally took them, and now seem almost alien to me 2 years later.

Is there any comprehensive review program for someone with such a shoddy base that could realistically prepare me for the MCAT? Any suggestions short of retaking most of my classes? Or should I just give up on the dream of being a physician, acknowledge my late start and weak(end) background, and find a good PA program?

Thank you so much for any advice. Really not looking for encouragement, more along the lines of a realistic assessment of my situation.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

You are certainly not too late. You will find plenty of people in their 40s here, and even a few in their fifties. I'm 31 and not even close to being the oldest in my med school class. You should probably get a good set of MCAT review books and start going through them. Buy older editions of the textbooks used in the prereq classes and use them to get a more thorough understanding of subjects that are especially challenging for you. You can find free online classes from MIT, probably from other sources as well. Going back to college would be overkill as you already have the prereqs completed and your GPA is good enough. Don't take any more of the AAMC practice MCAT tests until a few months before you take the test for real, when you've already done most of your studying.

 

[ThreadStalker]

You're definitely not too late. I would suggest taking one of the classroom review courses offered by Kaplan or The Princeton Review. At roughly $2000, they're not cheap, but you'll spend at least that much on applications and traveling to interviews just to have the chance to spend 100 times as much on your education, so keep it in perspective.

I took the TPR course and scored a 36 on the MCAT, so the material is reliable. Unfortunately, I found TPR totally unreliable as a company. They canceled my in-person classroom course 7 days before it started and enrolled me in an online course at "no extra charge" and had several other issues throughout the course. But I should probably leave it at that.

Whatever you do to prepare for the MCAT, approach it like an immersion language course. Just subject yourself to it all day, every day. Make your own flash cards, take them to work and drill them throughout the day, drill drill drill the material at home, do math problems until you start to see math as a language. IMHO, the biology section is knowledge based (memorization, either you know it or you don't), the physical science section is largely mathematical (know the equations, but know how to apply them, too), but the verbal section really relies on reading skills that must be developed. I did at least two verbal passages everyday for months before the test, and I firmly believe that this prep helped me on all three sections of the test because there are so many passages in the physical and biological sections.

In short, if you live and breathe the material, you'll learn the material. Don't forget it's also a "stress test", so learn some good stress management techniques. I did quite well on the test, but my first ten questions were absolutely brutal. You can't let the stress get to you, so learn how you can deal with it.

As for a "realistic" assessment of your situation, I would simply eliminate that word from your vocabulary and tell you to go for this full steam. Anybody who tells you what is "realistic" is only discouraging you from doing exactly what you should be doing. That word sucks. "Being realistic" is just code for giving up and settling for less that what I, and you, want. Just go out there and do it.

 

[Helen Wheels]

Is there any comprehensive review program for someone with such a shoddy base that could realistically prepare me for the MCAT? Any suggestions short of retaking most of my classes? Or should I just give up on the dream of being a physician, acknowledge my late start and weak(end) background, and find a good PA program?
.

I was in a similar situation. I decided at age 28 to pursue medicine and started taking the pre-reqs. I was my Mom's caregiver through a long terminal illness and worked full time to support us so those pre-reqs took awhile, four years to be exact. And with my Mom's deteriorating health I ended up putting med school on the back burner for 5 years after I finished the pre-reqs. So, when I started studying for the MCAT, I had to relearn everything. I tried studying on my own but didn't do well on my first MCAT attempt. I found Kaplan's online course to be very helpful. A lot of people on SDN seem to do very well with a self study program but I ended up needing a more structured course. So, perhaps Kaplan or Princeton Review would be a help. Definitely don't retake all those courses!

BTW, age is not a factor. I am a third year medical student and I am going to be 42 on Tuesday. 🙂

 

[survivordo]

Still plenty of time, looks like you made the right decisions and were able to take care of many of life's responsibilities. Now it is time to follow you dreams! Good luck!

Survivor DO

 

[SN12357]

Hi All.
Hope this is the right forum for my question.

I am 33 years old, w a bachelors degree in the humanities (3.7 GPA).
4 years ago I made the decision that I wanted to attend medical school, and spent 2 years taking the necessary pre-reqs at a local college (3.5 GPA). In my last semester, my brother died, leaving me financially responsible for his son and unable to take the MCAT or even consider leaving my job or foregoing overtime at the time. My nephew is now 18 and in college on scholarship.

I recently went through several AAMC practice tests, and am appalled at how little I've retained. I literally feel as if I barely learned any of the material at all, even though it's only been two years since I've seen it. Specifically in the equation based material such as chem, o-chem, and physics. These subjects were difficult for me when I originally took them, and now seem almost alien to me 2 years later.

Is there any comprehensive review program for someone with such a shoddy base that could realistically prepare me for the MCAT? Any suggestions short of retaking most of my classes? Or should I just give up on the dream of being a physician, acknowledge my late start and weak(end) background, and find a good PA program?

Thank you so much for any advice. Really not looking for encouragement, more along the lines of a realistic assessment of my situation.

Go for it. You are not too late. Either take a MCAT review test, or stock up on prep books and use online tools (ie, Khan Academy videos, etc) to reinforce material. It is hard to study just out of books. I think there are a lot of good suggestions in the MCAT forums.

However, you should stop taking the AAMC practice tests until you have done your thorough content review. The AAMCs are too valuable as practice material to use them up before you are ready to really practice the full test.

 

[Shjanzey]

I am 34 and planning to retake the MCAT. I have studied by myself using TBR and I really liked their books. There are several schedules posted (like SN2D) here on the forums that give you an example study schedule. If you are the kind of person that can set their own schedule and stick to it, this isn't a bad way to go.

If you feel like you need more interaction with people who have a good handle on the material, I would recommend Kaplans "MCAT Advantage Plus - Anywhere" program. It is a bit expensive ($2500), but you get classroom discussion, all their books, 19 full length exams, and they have something called "Flex Lectures" which are impromptu lectures about a specific MCAT topic open to anyone. To say the least I was surprised at how many resources they put in your hands.

 

[ThreadStalker]

I recently went through several AAMC practice tests, and am appalled at how little I've retained. I literally feel as if I barely learned any of the material at all, even though it's only been two years since I've seen it. Specifically in the equation based material such as chem, o-chem, and physics. These subjects were difficult for me when I originally took them, and now seem almost alien to me 2 years later.

Another thought on this point. The MCAT is very fond of using material that is presented in an unusual manner or is entirely new. I think their point is to see how well you adapt what you know to novel situations, and how well you can extract information from a passage. That's why there are so many passage sections on the test. Also, another reason that it's so important to develop critical reading skills; they'll help you on all sections of the test, not just verbal.
The questions can seem tricky or downright alien, but much of the information is in those passages. So don't feel too bad that you didn't retain much from the classes, just expect that the test will throw you a bunch of curve balls.

 

[jombojuice22]

BTW, age is not a factor. I am a third year medical student and I am going to be 42 on Tuesday. 🙂

Let's say one matriculates to a med school at age 40. Graduate at 44 and begin residency. Begin earning a real salary and paying off debt at ~48. Pay off loans by 55 and begin saving aggressively. Assuming one is able to live a frugal lifestyle, not develop expensive tastes and invest wisely, they might be able to start considering retirement or scaling back hours significantly around age 65-70?

Seems like the older you are, the more you probably "should" consider doing a PA program, at least from a purely financial point of view? They can start earning ~6 years earlier, smaller debt and better tax bracket. It seems that, over the course of a career, a PA who starts school at 40 will likely out-earn a physician who starts school at the same age, unless the physician goes into a very high paying specialty or works into his/her 70's.

This is just what I came up with playing around with CNN's retirement calculator. Is this a reasonably accurate financial picture? Of course money is likely not your #1 reason for doing a career switch into medicine at age 40, but still worth thinking about, I think.


I would also be worried about health problems. I am careful with my diet, exercise all the time, and am in pretty good shape... But stuff happens. As you get older, "stuff" seems to have a higher chance of happening.

 

[SN12357]

Let's say one matriculates to a med school at age 40. Graduate at 44 and begin residency. Begin earning a real salary and paying off debt at ~48. Pay off loans by 55 and begin saving aggressively. Assuming one is able to live a frugal lifestyle, not develop expensive tastes and invest wisely, they might be able to start considering retirement or scaling back hours significantly around age 65-70?

Seems like the older you are, the more you probably "should" consider doing a PA program, at least from a purely financial point of view? They can start earning ~6 years earlier, smaller debt and better tax bracket. It seems that, over the course of a career, a PA who starts school at 40 will likely out-earn a physician who starts school at the same age, unless the physician goes into a very high paying specialty or works into his/her 70's.

This is just what I came up with playing around with CNN's retirement calculator. Is this a reasonably accurate financial picture? Of course money is likely not your #1 reason for doing a career switch into medicine at age 40, but still worth thinking about, I think.


I would also be worried about health problems. I am careful with my diet, exercise all the time, and am in pretty good shape... But stuff happens. As you get older, "stuff" seems to have a higher chance of happening.

I'm sorry, I just have to jump in in case your statement about a 'better tax bracket' is based on a common misconception that many people have about the tax system, which is that you can take home less money by making more in the first place. This is false.

The United States has marginal tax rates. What this means that that each piece of your income is taxed differently as you go up the tax bracket. So if you make (for example), $35,000 a year, you are taxed at one rate. If you make $50,000 a year, the first $35,000 you make is taxed as thought that were all you made. It's only the $15,000 ABOVE $35,000 that gets taxed at the higher rate for your tax bracket.* This repeats all the way up the ladder.

There are complications involved in terms of being married vs. single, having dependents, etc, and making money can lose you benefits at the LOW ends of the income scale, but that does not apply at the PA vs MD end of the salary.

Basically you are always better off earning more money wrt to how much you have after income tax is taken out. It really drives me crazy that so many people hold the misconception that getting a raise could mean you lose money. (I've run into it in lawyers working in the financial system, which is really scary).

*these cut points chosen arbitrarily, actual bracket information available here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Marginal_tax_rates

 

[jombojuice22]

The United States has marginal tax rates. What this means that that each piece of your income is taxed differently as you go up the tax bracket.

That... makes so much sense it's hard to believe our government came up with it! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[SpaceLeftBlank]

It really drives me crazy that so many people hold the misconception that getting a raise could mean you lose money. (I've run into it in lawyers working in the financial system, which is really scary).

Yeah, but lawyers are horrible at math. Trust me on this. At my firm, I'm treated like some kind of wizard because I'm one of the few who's actually good at it. 🙂

Your post, while entirely true, misses the point. I doubt there are many nontrads who are doing this for "purely financial reasons." Or even "mostly financial reasons." In my case, if money were the only thing that mattered, I wouldn't be here at all. I'd just keep doing what I'm doing.

There are a lot of reasons I'm doing this, but money isn't one of them. I don't expect to get rich, but I also don't expect to end up in the poorhouse, either. For me, that's good enough.

 

[SN12357]

Yeah, but lawyers are horrible at math. Trust me on this. At my firm, I'm treated like some kind of wizard because I'm one of the few who's actually good at it. 🙂

Your post, while entirely true, misses the point. I doubt there are many nontrads who are doing this for "purely financial reasons." Or even "mostly financial reasons." In my case, if money were the only thing that mattered, I wouldn't be here at all. I'd just keep doing what I'm doing.

There are a lot of reasons I'm doing this, but money isn't one of them. I don't expect to get rich, but I also don't expect to end up in the poorhouse, either. For me, that's good enough.

My post wasn't directed at any point about the virtues or drawbacks of pursuing any specific path. It was simply intended to dispel the idea that you can take home less money by earning more to begin with, which had previously been expressed. There are enough variables in this process already. Misinformation doesn't help anyone.

 

[SpaceLeftBlank]

My post wasn't directed at any point about the virtues or drawbacks of pursuing any specific path. It was simply intended to dispel the idea that you can take home less money by earning more to begin with, which had previously been expressed. There are enough variables in this process already. Misinformation doesn't help anyone.

Oh, sure, and the second part of my post was more directed at the person you were replying to than you. But even if the tax part of the discussion was right, IMHO, if "purely financial decisions" are driving the bus, most of us are better off not riding.

 

[Trismegistus4]

My post wasn't directed at any point about the virtues or drawbacks of pursuing any specific path. It was simply intended to dispel the idea that you can take home less money by earning more to begin with, which had previously been expressed. There are enough variables in this process already. Misinformation doesn't help anyone.

Not arguing with the facts of your post, but even if one correctly understood the progressive tax system, one could suggest that being in a "better tax bracket" was something to consider, simply because it implies that being a higher income earner wouldn't be as much of an advantage as some might think. That is, if your gross income is $300k per year, you won't take home three times what you would if your gross income were $100k per year.

 

[jombojuice22]

Your post, while entirely true, misses the point. I doubt there are many nontrads who are doing this for "purely financial reasons." Or even "mostly financial reasons." In my case, if money were the only thing that mattered, I wouldn't be here at all. I'd just keep doing what I'm doing.

There are a lot of reasons I'm doing this, but money isn't one of them. I don't expect to get rich, but I also don't expect to end up in the poorhouse, either. For me, that's good enough.

Absolutely, I agree, that's why I wrote "should" in quotes when I said, "Seems like the older you are, the more you probably 'should' consider doing a PA program." I made the post mostly for my own benefit - couldn't find a thread that addressed it but didn't want to make a new one. People talk all the time on here about how age isn't a factor in how good of doctor you can become, but they seem to not really talk much about how your life must play out differently financially when entering the field so late.


I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and he said something that caught me off guard. He's a very hands-on guy, made money in high school by fixing/selling broken down cars and doing mechanic work on 18 wheelers, was an art major in college, and now makes a living building wooden boats and spends all his free time surfing. Interesting guy...

I was telling him I was thinking about med school and how the path I was taking to get there "wasn't optimal". He snapped back without even thinking, "you can't always be worrying about what other people are doing - what's optimal for one person might be the wrong path for somebody else."

I suppose that's not uncommon wisdom, but I guess especially coming from him and the way he said it just off the cuff without even thinking about it gave me pause.

 

[Helen Wheels]

Let's say one matriculates to a med school at age 40. Graduate at 44 and begin residency. Begin earning a real salary and paying off debt at ~48. Pay off loans by 55 and begin saving aggressively. Assuming one is able to live a frugal lifestyle, not develop expensive tastes and invest wisely, they might be able to start considering retirement or scaling back hours significantly around age 65-70?

Seems like the older you are, the more you probably "should" consider doing a PA program, at least from a purely financial point of view? They can start earning ~6 years earlier, smaller debt and better tax bracket. It seems that, over the course of a career, a PA who starts school at 40 will likely out-earn a physician who starts school at the same age, unless the physician goes into a very high paying specialty or works into his/her 70's.

This is just what I came up with playing around with CNN's retirement calculator. Is this a reasonably accurate financial picture? Of course money is likely not your #1 reason for doing a career switch into medicine at age 40, but still worth thinking about, I think.


I would also be worried about health problems. I am careful with my diet, exercise all the time, and am in pretty good shape... But stuff happens. As you get older, "stuff" seems to have a higher chance of happening.

I wouldn't recommend starting med school at age 40 for everyone. It doesn't make sense for most people which is why there is so few of us. But for a person who is motivated, if it is what they really want, age should not stop them.

From a purely numbers point of view it doesn't make sense and it would have been more practical for me to become a PA. Would I have been happy? No. I always planned to become a doctor but some life issues got in the way so I was a little delayed in getting here. I love learning and I don't believe you have to stop learning new things at a certain age. It also helps that I am single with no dependents. Would this choice make sense for every 40 year old? No way.

By the way, my health isn't perfect though so far nothing serious. But even young people can develop serious health issues. A student at my school in the class that just graduated had a brain tumor diagnosed while he was in med school. There are young people in med school right now with Crohn's, epilepsy, and diabetes. Sure it makes it tougher but people make it through.

 

[jdsob]

Thank you all for weighing in.
Further details:

I'm single with no kids, but hope to change that when/if I meet the "right one"

I'm in pretty good shape (powerlift, jiu-jitsu, yoga or salsa 6 days a week) and one of my concerns is how much of that I'd have to sacrifice to become a doctor, especially going into my later 30's early 40's (where it becomes much easier to maintain then to regain).

My motivations are not financial, and I am EXTREMELY frugal by nature. My biggest discretionary expenses are jiu-jitsu and salsa classes, and healthy food (a decent amount of which I grow myself). I've managed to buy a house, a tiny bit of farmland, and own my car outright, and I've never cleared more than 40k. However, I recognize that if I am lucky enough to fall in love and start a family, that raising kids will not be cheap.

I want to practice medicine in one form or another because it seems like one of the most noble professions. I do not want impede my ability to send my (as yet non-existent) kids to good schools bc I'm servicing debt on said noble endeavor.

My goal would be (either as a PA or Dr.) to work in an Emergency room, as I enjoy the pace, physical movement, and work/life balance that it affords (hope to be able to keep up the dancing, jiu-jitsu, and yoga throughout my working career).

I bought the Berkely review books, and still feel that I'll need the structure and organization of a physical class even after having looked at SN2's study outline. Even w the BR books I'm having to hit youtube and my textbooks for even the simplest of problems.
However, I do score btwn 11-14 on the verbal passages cold, w no problem-solving strategies or reviews.

So with those clarifications, any advice or amended advice? Will either TPR or Kaplan classroom be comprehensive enough to bring me up to speed? (assuming a modicum of intelligence on my part?)

I know I'm the only one who can make this decision, but I really appreciate and value the perspectives of those of you who have experience. Even anecdotal "this was my friends situation and this what happened" stories are greatly welcomed.

Thank you!!!!!

 

[jdsob]

Also,
Realistically, if I got into med school, I'd be around 34-36 when I got started as I'm 32 going on 33 now.
With an EM residency I'd guess I could be practicing by 40-41.
And my brothers kid has a scholarship as well as (FINALLY!) an insurance settlement so I'm not too worried about him financially. He seems to be pretty well-adjusted now considering the emotional trauma that he went through. He's got his own life now. No matter how restricted my time, I know I'll always be able to find a few minutes to check up on him once a week.

 

[jdsob]

Also,
Realistically, if I got into med school, I'd be around 34-36 when I got started as I'm 32 going on 33 now.
With an EM residency I'd guess I could be practicing by 40-41.
And my brothers kid has a scholarship as well as (FINALLY!) an insurance settlement so I'm not too worried about him financially. He seems to be pretty well-adjusted now considering the emotional trauma that he went through. He's got his own life now. No matter how restricted my time, I know I'll always be able to find a few minutes to check up on him once a week.

 

[Ratio121]

Hi OP,

From years of lurking SDN, I've come to realize it is never too late. I would be repeating what other SDN's have already said with my advice, so good luck!

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I'm 37, take a prep-course if you can, if not, see if you can get some of the books for them, or at least start using the self-study info. You'll be fine! I started just before my 36th birthday, so you can DOOOO IT!

 

[SN12357]

Thank you all for weighing in.
Further details:

I'm single with no kids, but hope to change that when/if I meet the "right one"

I'm in pretty good shape (powerlift, jiu-jitsu, yoga or salsa 6 days a week) and one of my concerns is how much of that I'd have to sacrifice to become a doctor, especially going into my later 30's early 40's (where it becomes much easier to maintain then to regain).

My motivations are not financial, and I am EXTREMELY frugal by nature. My biggest discretionary expenses are jiu-jitsu and salsa classes, and healthy food (a decent amount of which I grow myself). I've managed to buy a house, a tiny bit of farmland, and own my car outright, and I've never cleared more than 40k. However, I recognize that if I am lucky enough to fall in love and start a family, that raising kids will not be cheap.

I want to practice medicine in one form or another because it seems like one of the most noble professions. I do not want impede my ability to send my (as yet non-existent) kids to good schools bc I'm servicing debt on said noble endeavor.

My goal would be (either as a PA or Dr.) to work in an Emergency room, as I enjoy the pace, physical movement, and work/life balance that it affords (hope to be able to keep up the dancing, jiu-jitsu, and yoga throughout my working career).

I bought the Berkely review books, and still feel that I'll need the structure and organization of a physical class even after having looked at SN2's study outline. Even w the BR books I'm having to hit youtube and my textbooks for even the simplest of problems.
However, I do score btwn 11-14 on the verbal passages cold, w no problem-solving strategies or reviews.

So with those clarifications, any advice or amended advice? Will either TPR or Kaplan classroom be comprehensive enough to bring me up to speed? (assuming a modicum of intelligence on my part?)

I know I'm the only one who can make this decision, but I really appreciate and value the perspectives of those of you who have experience. Even anecdotal "this was my friends situation and this what happened" stories are greatly welcomed.

Thank you!!!!!

If you can already score double digits reliably in verbal, you're in a great position for the MCAT. The sciences sections are much easier to study for, and your verbal skills will be useful there, too.

If you feel you'd do best with the structure of a course, then by all means go for that. I bet you'll do well.