AMA article on DNP exam

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Medicine decries nurse doctorate exam being touted as equal to physician testing

Nursing organizations are accused of not accurately portraying the exam.

By Amy Lynn Sorrel, AMNews staff. Posted June 8, 2009.

Physician leaders say a new doctor of nursing practice certification exam is being wrongly compared with testing that physicians take. And they fear that patients may be misled into believing nurses who pass the exam share the same qualifications as physicians.

Last fall, the National Board of Medical Examiners began offering the voluntary DNP test, based in part on Step 3 of the U.S. Medical Licensing Examination. Step 3 is the final stage in the physician testing series. In January, the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care -- a nonprofit nursing group that contracted with the NBME to develop the exam -- announced the results of the first DNP certification test, with 50% of candidates receiving passing scores.

In its announcement, the CACC said the exam "was comparable in content, similar in format and measured the same set of competencies and applied similar performance standards as Step 3 of the USMLE, which is administered to physicians as one component of qualifying for licensure." In past statements, the NBME stated that the scope of the DNP exam was "materially different" from physician testing, in addition to differences in underlying training.

Physician leaders are chastising nursing organizations for what they say is a failure to portray the certification exam accurately. They also want the NBME to step in and further clarify that the DNP exam and physician tests are not equivalent.

"Our concern prior to the first round of testing was that the meaning of this test would be deliberately misconstrued to imply there was equivalence between nurses and physicians. And indeed some of the first statements seem to go in the direction of making those comparisons, which we believe are totally invalid and misleading to the public," said American Medical Association Board of Trustees member William A. Hazel Jr., MD.

The AMA and dozens of state and specialty medical organizations are asking the NBME to mandate that nursing groups clearly spell out the differences between the DNP and physician exams. At this article's deadline, the AMA House of Delegates was expected to consider, at its mid-June Annual Meeting, a resolution proposing to explore alternative physician licensing testing options. The resolution calls for the AMA to withdraw representation from the NBME if the testing organization fails to act to safeguard the integrity of the physician licensure process.

Doctors said they support advances in nursing education, which can contribute to a physician-led care team. But there are significant differences in testing and training that should not be minimized, Dr. Hazel said.

"For patients to make an informed decision, they need to know who is caring for them, what their level of training is and in what field. To the extent those lines are blurred, that [decision-making] becomes even harder," he said.

A push for scope expansions

The CACC in prior statements said the test was intended to set a uniform credentialing standard "to provide further evidence to the public that DNP certificants are qualified to provide comprehensive patient care" and help fill primary care shortages.

The test comes at a time when DNP programs are growing. In 2008, more than 90 DNP programs were offered at nursing schools nationwide, up from 53 in 2007, according to the American Assn. of Colleges of Nursing. It wants more than 200 nursing schools to offer DNP programs by 2015.

Physicians are concerned that nurses will leverage such DNP programs and the NBME test to seek scope-of-practice expansions.

The AMA, the American Academy of Family Physicians and other physician organizations, in letters to the NBME, pointed to an article in the Jan. 16 Chronicle of Higher Education. Mary O'Neil Mundinger, DrPH, RN, dean of Columbia University School of Nursing in New York, was quoted as saying: "If nurses can show they can pass the same test at the same level of competency, there's no rational argument for reimbursing them at a lower rate or giving them less authority in caring for patients." Mundinger, CACC president, declined comment for this article.

Physician organizations say that a lack of response from the NBME will only add credibility to such statements as Mundinger's and compromise patient care.

"It's very important the delineation between nursing degrees and physician degrees is not obscured and patients aren't misled," said Roger A. Moore, MD, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. He cited examples of DNPs referring to themselves as "doctor" in the clinical setting. Nursing schools also have adopted terms such as "residency" and "fellowship" as part of their doctoral programs.

Use of the USMLE Step 3 "appeared to be one more step in that direction for nurses to be able to claim they have the same credentials as physicians ... and that's a misrepresentation," Dr. Moore said.

American Assn. of Colleges of Nursing President C. Fay Raines, PhD, RN, said the DNP degree does not change nurses' scope of practice, which would be up to state legislatures.

However, such programs "are similar [to obtaining a medical degree] in that they involve advanced preparation ... and certainly there are some things that are common across disciplines," said Raines, dean of the University of Alabama in Huntsville College of Nursing.

Many states, for example, recognize advanced practice nurses' ability to independently treat and diagnose patients, as well as prescribe medications. Other health professions are moving toward practice doctorates to respond to primary care shortages and an aging population, Raines said.

The NBME's certification exam for DNPs is an additional, voluntary credential, Raines added. "But it's always important for people to be recognized in areas in which they are experts." Transparency is important, but the term "doctor" is not exclusive to physicians, she said.

NBME's role questioned

The NBME declined comment for this article. In a position paper posted on its Web site, the organization said it had not received any substantiated reports that DNPs misrepresented their training abilities.

AAFP President Ted Epperly, MD, questioned the NBME's endorsement of the test. "This is the National Board of Medical Examiners. These are nurses, not physicians ... and it only confuses the public."

According to the NBME, the DNP certification exam draws on portions of the USMLE Step 3 that test skills and knowledge related to patient management. It does not include assessments of fundamental science, clinical diagnosis or clinical skills included in the other two portions of the physician test.

Dr. Epperly said the DNP test uses defunct USMLE questions -- not current ones -- and applies a different performance standard, one set by a CACC-appointed committee.

Delegates at the AMA's 2008 Annual Meeting voted to oppose the NBME's participation in the DNP test, and supported legislative and other efforts to ensure health professionals' clearly identify their qualifications to patients.

The NBME defended its decision to offer the test as consistent with its mission. "Current and future patients of these nurse clinicians deserve a system that assures them that the clinician providing services meets appropriate quality standards. Our support for the DNP assessment process helps provide that assurance," stated the NBME position paper released, in part, in response to physicians' concerns.

Now that the test is out there, however, the NBME has an obligation to clear up the confusion to protect patients and physicians, Dr. Epperly said.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
Growing program

More than 200 nursing schools nationwide may offer the Doctor of Nursing Practice degree by 2015.

90 DNP programs were offered in 2008.

102 DNP programs are in the planning stages.

34 states and the District of Columbia offer DNP programs. States with the most programs include Florida, Minnesota, New York, Pennsylvania and Texas.

3,415 students enrolled in DNP programs in 2008, an 82% jump from 2007 enrollment. The number of graduates nearly tripled, from 122 in 2007 to 361 in 2008.

Source: American Assn. of Colleges of Nursing

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50% pass rate on a test that is supposed to be similar to the portion of the USMLE that ~95% of all MD and DO takers pass on the first try(http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html). And this is a test that can be passed with a week or less of studying by most (while I took COMLEX three everyone I knew who took USMLE 3 said the same for USMLE). An interesting omission in the article.
 
the PA profession has a similar exam, the PANCE. WHICH we have to take with initial certification in order to get licensure in any state. IT IS NOT voluntary. Every six years we take it again, albeit with a few less questions as the PANRE. It is modeled on, and is formulated with input from the NBME. IN fact, I was just asked to consider applying for an open position on the NCCPA board of directors. Interestingly, one of the seats is an NBME member.

Our test is supposedly similar to Step 3, although not exactly the same, and also has elements of the Family Practice boards. AGAIN, not exactly the same. Our pass rates nationally are MUCH higher then 50%.
 
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I secretly think that the DNP's will come to regret the degree later. The PA's should take advantage of the confusion in nursing and open more schools. Why go to 4 years of DNP school when you can do it in 2 years in PA school? That's especially important then DNP's, NP's, and PA's will apply to the same jobs. I don't believe that DNP's will be able to convince anybody that they're equivalent to physicians. The physicians will fight back hard if they make any such claims.
 
So sick of this ****...just do not hire NP's once you are able to make that choice and do not work with them....period. That will be one of my major "desires" once I am job searching.
 
The NBME just wants their money since the DNP will be a required degree for nurses in X number of years, I dont think its a big leap to say an even more watered down version of the test will be required to get the degree as well.

The only thing that will get the NBME to change their position is the threat of the medical profession not relying on them for their credentialing tests.

NO letters, complaints or whatever, will entice them to give up the millions of dollars they will make from the DNP test.
 
Some; however, many of us disagree with and even oppose this movement. Not all of us buy into this DNP, MD wannabe provider. Personally, I think it sets a dangerous precedent and goes completely against the concept of nursing.
 
Some; however, many of us disagree with and even oppose this movement. Not all of us buy into this DNP, MD wannabe provider. Personally, I think it sets a dangerous precedent and goes completely against the concept of nursing.

I can see where you are coming from. As I said in another thread, it must be incredibly irritating.

They're basically steering towards a turf war where there shouldn't be one. Additionally, no one wants animosity among the nurses and physicians in the work place.
 
I can see where you are coming from. As I said in another thread, it must be incredibly irritating.

They're basically steering towards a turf war where there shouldn't be one. Additionally, no one wants animosity among the nurses and physicians in the work place.

It is beyond irritating. Clearly, I am not a member of any organization that supports this movement. The worst part is, no amount of letter writing or emailing on my behalf is going to help. This whole concept is being pushed against the will of the medical community and dare I say a good portion of the nursing community. I am obviously quite disappointed to see my profession moving in this direction.

I am not sure there is a significant amount of animosity between physicians and nurses. Much of this online stuff on the various forums seems to be people blowing off steam. (Obviously, the exception of this DNP concept applies however.) On a day to day basis, it is simply people doing their job. I certainly do not experience any animosity at work. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence at best.
 
I am not sure there is a significant amount of animosity between physicians and nurses. Much of this online stuff on the various forums seems to be people blowing off steam. (Obviously, the exception of this DNP concept applies however.) On a day to day basis, it is simply people doing their job. I certainly do not experience any animosity at work. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence at best.

Sorry, I agree with you. I should have worded that differently. I was alluding to the future where PCPs may be fighting for their jobs with DNPs. This certainly does not exist by any measurable amount from my time spent in the hospitals/clinics.
 
No worries. I honestly cannot even look at this new provider as a nurse. Some hybrid that is far removed from nursing IMHO.
 
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Patients aren't as stupid as the AMA thinks they are. They won't be fooled as to who is a doctorb and who is a nurse.
 
Patients aren't as stupid as the AMA thinks they are. They won't be fooled as to who is a doctorb and who is a nurse.

I hope that you are correct, but in my limited experience, that has not been the case. You would not believe the # of people who I see that tell me "I see Dr. X"; when I try to find them to send them a letter they're not in any book and turn out to be a NP. At first I pointed the difference out (to the shock and dismay of many patients); their responses led me to not do that any longer and simply ask (if I don't recognize the name) "who are they in with? where is their office?"....
 
when I try to find them to send them a letter they're not in any book and turn out to be a NP.
You send letters? How quaint.

I have to agree with MOHS on this one. PA, NP, it's all the same for a lot of patients, because these people are performing the jobs traditionally done by MDs.

Little off topic: does it bother anyone else that there are lots of people wearing long white coats in the hospital? I'm a medical student and I have to wear this silly looking short coat. Meanwhile the orderly that pushes around wheelchairs is wearing scrubs and has a long white coat.
 
Patients aren't as stupid as the AMA thinks they are. They won't be fooled as to who is a doctorb and who is a nurse.

Unfortunately, I disagree. People who are sick and under stress are going to have difficulty sorting through the noisy and chaotic environment of a hospital. This would most certainly apply to their provider.

Doctor has a specific meaning and implication in the clinical environment. Even sick and stressed people can understand the term "doctor." People must clearly know who is a "doctor" and who is not a "doctor." Throwing "doctor" in front of nurse in the clinical environment is a risky move as the term "doctor" has always had a very specific implication in the "clinical" environment.
 
Why not just have them take step I, II, and III at different phases of their education. If they can pass then they can practice independently and be considered doctor/nurses or whatever title they want.

The roughly equivalent thing seems like a slippery, shady comparison. If they wanna roll with the big dogs they should do just that.
 
I've seen a patient come through the PCPs office and mention how surprised and delighted she was to learn that now there are "doctors" (in her mind, physicians) who do physical therapy. She was an older lady being treated by a DPT who apparently went by Dr. Xxx. I think there's lots of room for confusion.
 
Why not just have them take step I, II, and III at different phases of their education. If they can pass then they can practice independently and be considered doctor/nurses or whatever title they want.

The roughly equivalent thing seems like a slippery, shady comparison. If they wanna roll with the big dogs they should do just that.

However, even after taking all three steps of the USMLE, physicians typically have a residency, boards, and additional exams to complete before having true "independent" practice.

Currently, we only have a first time 50% pass rate on this step III hybrid exam. How can we expect the step I & II to go any better? (Correct my ignorance; however, I understand the first two steps have fairly complex pathophysiology based questions?) Not exactly looking good for the home team.
 
However, even after taking all three steps of the USMLE, physicians typically have a residency, boards, and additional exams to complete before having true "independent" practice.

Currently, we only have a first time 50% pass rate on this step III hybrid exam. How can we expect the step I & II to go any better? (Correct my ignorance; however, I understand the first two steps have fairly complex pathophysiology based questions?) Not exactly looking good for the home team.

Well. I've been inside a nursing-dominant culture for a while now. And by all measures the compass points to power grab by any means necessary. Which is not so much the problem. The problem arises when people go into half a million in debt to bring to market a product which can be bought far cheaper by the consumer.

So why not establish a unified standard. And kill the speculative politicking--which despite all haughty claims from both sides--does absolutely nothing for the public.

You--if I understand you correctly--are a minority faction within your own camp.
 
Well. I've been inside a nursing-dominant culture for a while now. And by all measures the compass points to power grab by any means necessary. For some nurses; however, many of us are simply working class stiffs. Which is not so much the problem. The problem arises when people go into half a million in debt to bring to market a product which can be bought far cheaper by the consumer. I am not quite clear on this one? Is this related to the DNP doing primary care?

So why not establish a unified standard. And kill the speculative politicking--which despite all haughty claims from both sides--does absolutely nothing for the public. I tend to agree.

You--if I understand you correctly--are a minority faction within your own camp. I disagree. Many of us do not agree or support this movement. The difference being, I am on a physician based website speaking out against this movement, and generally agreeing with the "medical" community.

I think we agree on the general consensus. The exception being, this culture of nursing. I will agree it is out of control in some places.
 
Patients aren't as stupid as the AMA thinks they are. They won't be fooled as to who is a doctorb and who is a nurse.

Really? I hope you're right but I'm skeptical. The DNP movement itself, is exploiting the public to some extent in my opinion.
 
The only conclusion I can reach from this debacle is that the board of directors for the NBME must have a ****load of non-doctors. I bet there are lawyers, "public health" experts, and a hodge-podge of groups with only remote ties to real medical practice. There's probably even a few nurses in their leadership.

Unfortunately, you cant really find out who runs the NBME becasue its somewhat of a secret organization. On their website they wont publish who their board is, or who their director is. Its an organization cloaked in secrecy.

The FSMB and AMA should drop the "nuclear" option on these fools. Immediate withdrawal from the NBME. Watch the NBME beg for mercy as they lose over 80% of their budget now that the doctors they are trying to stab in the back dont pay their ridiculous testing fees.

The FSMB should create a new testing agency run by doctors and they can create a new series of medical licensing exams. Its time for DOCTORS to decide the tests and format of licensing exams without having the need to appease the nurse groups.

The NBME wont survive without the FSMB/AMA/AAMC. We own those fools, its time to exercise our power. They are nothing without the billions of dollars in testing fees they receive from med students every year. We ARE the NBME, and those ungrateful bastards have the audacity to sneak this in behind the scenes and stab us in the back? **** the NBME.
 
This is a straight-forward case of misleading claims. A lawsuit probably isn't far behind.
 
I wish I understood why physicians are even called doctors in the first place.

Maybe it's easier to say and has fewer syllables than the title physician. I always thought that the title of doctor conveyed Ph.D physicists, chemists, engineers, etc...

Many will disagree and I certainly haven't put much effort into making an formulated argument, but perhaps we just need to emphasize our original titles of physician, physician assistant, and nurse. On the other hand, we are already neck deep in the poorly-understood title the public has known us by.
 
I wish I understood why physicians are even called doctors in the first place.

Maybe it's easier to say and has fewer syllables than the title physician. I always thought that the title of doctor conveyed Ph.D physicists, chemists, engineers, etc...

Many will disagree and I certainly haven't put much effort into making an formulated argument, but perhaps we just need to emphasize our original titles of physician, physician assistant, and nurse. On the other hand, we are already neck deep in the poorly-understood title the public has known us by.

Unfortunately, doctor has an implied meaning in the "clinical" environment worldwide. In theory, I agree with you. In fact, I do not really care what you call your self looking at this topic in a vacuum. I liken it to non nurses calling themselves nurses, the reality is that I simply do not care.

Unfortunately, in the real world patients attach a very specific meaning to the term doctor in the realm of health care. Therefore, we must deal with this issue in pragmatic terms. Doctor = physician. Nothing personal against people who hold a Ph.D.

This concept is so universal that I remember taking care of Afghan nationals who only spoke Farsi/Dari and perhaps a bit of Urdu. However, these guys knew what to expect when you said doctor. No, not a doctor of Persian anthropology, but a doctor of medicine that is going to make them feel better. I simply cannot see changing a universal concept for a few nurses who want to play doctor.
 
Patients aren't as stupid as the AMA thinks they are. They won't be fooled as to who is a doctorb and who is a nurse.


I would have to disagree with you on this one. I cannot tell you how many times has a patient that I have admitted has told me "Dr. X or Y told me this or that" and then on the record is a NP as the patient provider or the computer note is signed by an NP. Some people just really dont know.

Im the first to become a doctor in my family and it was very difficult for my uncles/aunts/grandparents (all of them professionals) to fully understand what training we go through, so imagine the average joe in the community.
 
and by the way, i forgot to writte that the NBME is salivating right now thinking about how much money they are gonna make if they become the one's that create the test for the DNP program. Imagine 200 schools by 2015, that's 200 programs that will have opened in less than 10 years while we have 123 med schools in 70-100 years??

Thats alot of freaking money!!!
 
and by the way, i forgot to writte that the NBME is salivating right now thinking about how much money they are gonna make if they become the one's that create the test for the DNP program. Imagine 200 schools by 2015, that's 200 programs that will have opened in less than 10 years while we have 123 med schools in 70-100 years??

Thats alot of freaking money!!!

Except they aren't running the test only providing the questions. They don't make that much off of development services compared to administering the test.
 
Physicians lost the argument on status long ago. NPs, PAs, CRNAs, psychologists, optometrists, etc, etc - who else wants a piece of the pie? This is no longer an argument we can win, in my opinion. These providers are here to stay, and their status will go up rather than down. Now, we just have to figure out how to compete with them instead of trying to stop the inevitable. The physicians of the past few decades failed those of us who are coming after them by not protecting their own educational credentials, status, and position in society. Frankly, the AMA screwed up in ever allowing anyone other than a physician to be able to prescribe ANYTHING or oversee ANYTHING without throwing a hellacious fit. I have predicted many times this problem will get worse as "cost-saving" becomes king, because most of these other providers are cheaper than a physician.
 
Physicians lost the argument on status long ago. NPs, PAs, CRNAs, psychologists, optometrists, etc, etc - who else wants a piece of the pie? This is no longer an argument we can win, in my opinion. These providers are here to stay, and their status will go up rather than down. Now, we just have to figure out how to compete with them instead of trying to stop the inevitable. The physicians of the past few decades failed those of us who are coming after them by not protecting their own educational credentials, status, and position in society. Frankly, the AMA screwed up in ever allowing anyone other than a physician to be able to prescribe ANYTHING or oversee ANYTHING without throwing a hellacious fit. I have predicted many times this problem will get worse as "cost-saving" becomes king, because most of these other providers are cheaper than a physician.


gimme a break. Would you like a small violin to just play for you?
 
Just don't dismiss my criticism of the current watering-down of qualifications to practice medicine. Not trying to be arrogant, really, I just believe it is time for physicians to reassert themselves as captain of the ship.
 
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Don't get mad pal. If you had studied a little harder, you could have gotten into medical school too. Just don't dismiss my criticism of the current watering-down of qualifications to practice medicine. As someone who HAS actually made it into medical school, I feel I have the right to comment on the status of those who will be my subordinates. You are, after all a physician ASSISTANT, is that correct? Not trying to be arrogant, really, I just believe it is time for physicians to reassert themselves as captain of the ship.


Not mad all, just laughing at your little tantrum. Medicine has changed, significantly. Get used to it.

OH, and I took and passed my MCATS, as at one time, I did think about going back to medical school, but then decided that I had no desire to do that, although I have one friend who is a PA, and is currently starting his second year of medical school. He's also stated, that while he's learned some new things, that for the most part, he's been bored. Our attendings have stated more than once, that perhaps he should be able to skip his clinical years, as it would likely be a waste of time.

For the record, about 85% of the stuff that comes into an ER I can handle just fine on my own.

Also, physicians don't have much power anymore, not really. The AMA is a shell of it's former self, and the public has come to think of physicians by and large, as greedy and arrogant. Don't blame us.

Also, one last point, you do realize that there simply aren't enough physicians right?

This paper, estimates that physician supply for EM won't be adequate until 2025 at the earliest, and that doesn't take into account physicians who are working part time, or doing administration, and/or teaching.

http://www.luxxium.org/wp_luxxium/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/2008_interprofessional.pdf
 
My statement "Don't get mad...study harder, etc, etc" was inappropriate. But, then the statements come out, as you say, that medical school isn't really necessary to practice medicine and whatnot. That's exactly the kind of sentiment toward physicians I'm talking about.

I have often been critical of physicians, not just physician extenders. I whole-heartedly agree that physicians don't have any power anymore. Frankly, that's why I sound pissed off on here a lot. I do blame physician organizations such as the AMA for what they have allowed to happen to the profession. I don't believe older physicians have been good stewards of the career that they are now passing on to those of us who are becoming younger physicians. I think it is time for some younger physicians to reverse the trend and get their status back.
 
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Physasst,

The quality of your posts has depreciated significantly over the past few days. In large part they have deteriorated into the "let's f' 'the rich and greedy' (as if physicians can any longer be considered the former regardless of the latter). Doctors suck and we all know it. First it was the bankers, now it'll be the doctors. We don't need you, after all, because we have plenty of cheap(er) labor who can do some (or most) or what you do anyway." I would like for you to look around you at those things which you would not be comfortable doing if it were not for the convenient backstop of having a physician available... I can tell you from personal experience that treating patients seemed much easier as a resident with that same backstop compared to as an attending when acting independently. Now, do you really want to risk demoralizing the medical profession further or diminish the reward structure for choosing medicine? Altruism is fine and great (if it truly exists), but I would wager that one cannot count on it alone to provide the incentive for undertaking the medical education gauntlet.

I would not have gone back to medical school if I were you either -- what would the utility be? Title? Prestige? Neither, really... just 7-11 more years of sh**, mountains of debt, and criminal work hours... only to have emerged on the other side to find that the foundation that you thought would be sound has been infiltrated by termites (politicians, insurance execs, pharma, and aggressive ambitious mid-levels). Oh, the MCAT is not pass/fail.
 
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Physasst,

The quality of your posts has depreciated significantly over the past few days. In large part they have deteriorated into the "let's f' 'the rich and greedy' (as if physicians can any longer be considered the former regardless of the latter). Doctors suck and we all know it. First it was the bankers, now it'll be the doctors. We don't need you, after all, because we have plenty of cheap(er) labor who can do some (or most) or what you do anyway." I would like for you to look around you at those things which you would not be comfortable doing if it were not for the convenient backstop of having a physician available... I can tell you from personal experience that treating patients seemed much easier as a resident with that same backstop compared to as an attending when acting independently. Now, do you really want to risk demoralizing the medical profession further or diminish the reward structure for choosing medicine? Altruism is fine and great (if it truly exists), but I would wager that one cannot count on it alone to provide the incentive for undertaking the medical education gauntlet.

I would not have gone back to medical school if I were you either -- what would the utility be? Title? Prestige? Neither, really... just 7-11 more years of sh**, mountains of debt, and criminal work hours... only to have emerged on the other side to find that the foundation that you thought would be sound has been infiltrated by termites (politicians, insurance execs, pharma, and aggressive ambitious mid-levels). Oh, the MCAT is not pass/fail.


I've had a trying few days, and some frustrations are playing themselves out in my posts. My apologies.
 
No need for apologies -- all of our lives suck from time to time and this is a convenient venting mechanism.
 
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