AMA speaks out

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[atomi]

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[Col Kurtz]

Which will cause competent and ethical doctors to exit the profession. It is a horrible idea, and I believe that if it happens, it will eventually be reversed, even if it takes 20 years for government health care to collapse.

The government does not have a responsibility to provide healthcare. That is not the proper function of government.

Okay, so how about you define what the "proper" role of government is...

 

[Gut Shot]

Prospect for health care "reform" starting to crumble: http://thehill.com/dick-morris/obamas-issues-crumbling-2009-06-09.html

😍

Do you like to put Dick Morris in your mouth?

 

[glypha1104]

One point everyone is missing... This country is FLAT BROKE. Medicare is at least a $50 trillion dollar unfunded liability, yet we are still talking about adding more entitlements.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

One point everyone is missing... This country is FLAT BROKE. Medicare is at least a $50 trillion dollar unfunded liability, yet we are still talking about adding more entitlements.

Who cares, this isn't about being logical. This is about getting health care for everyone.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Anybody know where to find a list of average physician salaries by country?

 

[Longshanks]

Anybody know where to find a list of average physician salaries by country?

not the best web page... but its at least a start for this debate here:

http://www.worldsalaries.org/generalphysician.shtml

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

not the best web page... but its at least a start for this debate here:

http://www.worldsalaries.org/generalphysician.shtml

Thanks.

I wasn't really trying to use it in a debate. I was just looking for other possible countries to practice in once universal health care (plus the massive tax's linked to it) crushes physician salaries in the US.

 

[Longshanks]

Thanks.

I wasn't really trying to use it in a debate. I was just looking for other possible countries to practice in once universal health care (plus the massive tax's linked to it) crushes physician salaries in the US.

I only saw you asking for a link, I don't care if this was used as a debate point or not. I was just hoping to find something that had objective numbers, but that seems to be lacking online, so people having some grounds to base opinions on.

 

[scarletgirl777]

1. I went to school in a pretty crappy area, if you go running during the safe for gang territories, you will probably be alright. Like i said there are alternatives you can do if youre not comfortable running outside. Presumably if you live in the inner city building there will be stairs, run em.

2. If i run from x to y as opposed to walking from x to y will I use more enegry?

3. first you would have to define healthy. I am defining it for the purposes of this argument and in general as not being overweight. You can not even work out at all if you eat the amount of calories your body burns sitting around. 2x can be more than enough. As i said before i only go twice and I am in much better shape than the average american (and I dont have that great of a diet.)

4. With 67% of the population being overweight/obese, its impossible to blame it all on SES, since 67% of the population is not in the lower SES class. So while being in a lower SES class may contribute to the problem it is certainly not the sole reason for it.

5. I dont goto mcdonalds I like wendys.

Strawman. No one's arguing that.

Interestingly, you are excluding the fact that one of the biggest drains on our healthcare system are the moderately healthy people who pressure their doctors into ordering excessive tests (or are pressured by their doctors into getting excessive tests). It's not all the obese people's fault (my own strawman 😀)

 

[scarletgirl777]

Also I think if youre working two jobs you probably arent going to be overweight.

SO not true. Many people with low SES work 2 jobs, but if your job involves sitting at a desk all day or even standing all day, that's not "exercise." I worked in a store where people were on their feet all day and this was a second job for most of them, and the vast majority of the aged 40+ adults were overweight.

 

[NotAFelon]

SO not true. Many people with low SES work 2 jobs, but if your job involves sitting at a desk all day or even standing all day, that's not "exercise." I worked in a store where people were on their feet all day and this was a second job for most of them, and the vast majority of the aged 40+ adults were overweight.

True that. Also, with those type of time constraints, it gets pretty damn hard to cook yourself healthy meals at home, as opposed to catching some cheap fast food somewhere.

 

[Col Kurtz]

Who cares, this isn't about being logical. This is about getting health care for everyone.

No, it IS about being logical. It IS logical for the most just country in the world to ensure its citizens have certain needs taken care of. Look, government spending should be less, but there are plenty of things to cut that are ineffective. I highlighted two in this thread already. Neither of which have been answered, the only real policy even basically described in this thread was by me. The conservatives have lots of posts that are variations on the word "no," but not a single one has outlined a way to fix the system. I guess I could count "get the government out of health care" but that's not really a plan, that's just an unwarranted assertion.

 

[blackbird11384]

Another NYT's article about this whole mess. Seems to blame doctor's for most of the rising healthcare costs and uses Atul Gawande's recent article. Should be interesting to see what is said at Obama's speech tomorrow at the AMA as mentioned at the end of this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14sun1.html

 

[Col Kurtz]

Another NYT's article about this whole mess. Seems to blame doctor's for most of the rising healthcare costs and uses Atul Gawande's recent article. Should be interesting to see what is said at Obama's speech tomorrow at the AMA as mentioned at the end of this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14sun1.html

First. Love the name and avatar. September 9th cannot come soon enough for me.

This is an interesting article. Especially taken within the context of Dr. Gawande's article. This goes to the heart of what I have said several times in this and the AMA thread. It's fine that people do not want a public option, but something must be done to make health care more affordable. But the posters on this board won't compromise about doctor's salaries. Unfortunately this happens too much in American politics. No one looks past their own self interest. When that trend strikes the most humanistic profession, it is disturbing.

 

[MegaProjectile]

No, it IS about being logical. It IS logical for the most just country in the world to ensure its citizens have certain needs taken care of. Look, government spending should be less, but there are plenty of things to cut that are ineffective. I highlighted two in this thread already. Neither of which have been answered, the only real policy even basically described in this thread was by me. The conservatives have lots of posts that are variations on the word "no," but not a single one has outlined a way to fix the system. I guess I could count "get the government out of health care" but that's not really a plan, that's just an unwarranted assertion.

I'm not sure if we are the most "just" country especially after Gitmo,torture, war in Iraq etc.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I'm not sure if we are the most "just" country especially after Gitmo,torture, war in Iraq etc.

I agree with you, but part of the reason I put it like that was that many people seem to think those things were justified. I was also really talking about domestic policy anyway. Maybe I should have said this: if we want to truly live up to American standards, we would find a way to provide affordable health care for those who cannot afford it.

 

[MegaProjectile]

I agree with you, but part of the reason I put it like that was that many people seem to think those things were justified. I was also really talking about domestic policy anyway. Maybe I should have said this: if we want to truly live up to American standards, we would find a way to provide affordable health care for those who cannot afford it.

I'm in favor of a universal healthcare but I think we should really take our time in creating a reform.We have by far the largest number of population of all developed nations so our problems are unique and we shouldn't be too quick to model our healthcare after smaller European countries. I hope Obama and the AMA can work out something good.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I'm in favor of a universal healthcare but I think we should really take our time in creating a reform.We have by far the largest number of population of all developed nations so our problems are unique and we shouldn't be too quick to model our healthcare after smaller European countries. I hope Obama and the AMA can work out something good.

Also in agreement here. If there is one thing the government is phenomenal at, it is half-assed solutions. I have said for awhile now that a political/economic system that works efficiently for a nation this large has yet to be invented. Our country is also much more diverse now. For example, in 1800 the world population hit 1 billion people and the US had 5.3 million. Of course those 5.3 million people were all along the Eastern seaboard for the most part and 81% were caucasian. I don't know if that statistic includes slaves or not. Either way, it is really impossible to model our programs on any other nation because of the population difference. But that also does not mean that we should not look abroad to get ideas about what should be done.

 

[ExMedChemist]

Oh give me a break. Government food stamps such as WIC already encourage some pretty healthy foods, foods I couldn't even afford for myself on a daily basis. Has it ever occurred to you that some people just don't want to eat healthy foods? because, for example, it tastes like rabbit food? or they are too lazy to prepare meals using healthy foods and prefer microwave foods instead? or too lazy to go to the grocery store every other day to get fresh veggies?

Dumping more money to a cultural problem rarely ever solves the problem. One solution that does work is to ban unhealthy foods, but then I bet you have lots of people starving and malnourished.

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/newsroom/impact/2008/nri/03191_food_prices.html

The researchers found the price of calorie-dense food was less likely to rise as a result of inflation. During the 2-year study, the price of high-calorie food decreased by 1.8 percent, whereas the price of low-calorie foods increased by 19.5 percent. Considering most bargain shoppers are trying to stretch their incomes as far as possible, the findings may help explain why the highest rates of obesity are among people in lower-income groups.
Based on a standard 2000-calorie diet, the researchers found a diet consisting primarily of calorie-dense foods costs $3.52 a day, but a diet consisting primarily of low-calorie food costs $36.32 a day. The average American eats a variety of foods throughout the day, spending $7 a day.
"If you have $3 to feed yourself, your choices gravitate toward foods which give you the most calories per dollar,'' Drewnowski said. "Not only are the empty calories cheaper, but the healthy foods are becoming more and more expensive. Fresh vegetables and fruits are rapidly becoming luxury goods."