AMCAS "double dipping"

[ch0sen1]

I understand that you cannot count physican shadowing as "patient care experience", however my advisor today informed me that my ER volunteering experience should count towards patient care experience (because I take vitals and have that patient interaction in the ER), BUT i CANNOT count my ER volunteering hours towards my community service since I am counting it as patient care...

Is this true? I do have over 300 hours elsewhere in volunteering service, however I would like to double dip in this case...

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[FlowLimited]

I understand that you cannot count physican shadowing as "patient care experience", however my advisor today informed me that my ER volunteering experience should count towards patient care experience (because I take vitals and have that patient interaction in the ER), BUT i CANNOT count my ER volunteering hours towards my community service since I am counting it as patient care...

Is this true? I do have over 300 hours elsewhere in volunteering service, however I would like to double dip in this case...

If you're considering listing one activity twice on your AMCAS app just so you can list it as volunteering and patient care, think again. Med schools aren't stupid, so just make it clear in the activity description and you'll be fine.

 

[ch0sen1]

If you're considering listing one activity twice on your AMCAS app just so you can list it as volunteering and patient care, think again. Med schools aren't stupid, so just make it clear in the activity description and you'll be fine.

I dont get it..am I allowed to count it towards my pateint care and volunteering hours or not?

 

[FlowLimited]

I dont get it..am I allowed to count it towards my pateint care and volunteering hours or not?

Yes.

 

[Shawnpremed]

^^It seemed like no at first. If you did 2 separate activities, i.e. reading to patients on weekends, and also taking vitals in the SAME location, I supposed you could list the 2 as distinct? Just my opinion. But as time-efficient premeds, I'm sure many may want jobs that overlap many categories.

I.e. nonpaid research involving patient contact, resulting in publication, maybe award, in a hospital.
^Can some aspects of that count under 1 or 2 categories?

 

[anbuitachi]

so volunteering in a hospital w/ patient contact counts for BOTH community service AND patient care ? thats pretty good

 

[236116]

I.e. nonpaid research involving patient contact, resulting in publication, maybe award, in a hospital.
^Can some aspects of that count under 1 or 2 categories?

No, it's one or the other.

so volunteering in a hospital w/ patient contact counts for BOTH community service AND patient care ? thats pretty good

No, it's one or the other.

 

[Stratego]

If you are doing clinical research where you interact with patients to collect data, whether paid, volunteer, or for class credit, you will always list it under "research." The written description you provide will tell the reader that the activity encompasses more than one category, like clinical experience.

Some of the pre-selectable categories imply both activities, like "community service/volunteer-medical/clinical" so that's where you'd put ER volunteering, eg. Yes, it counts for both categories.

If you have a clinical job, you would list it under "employment-not military" and the description tells that you had patient contact.

Shadowing is listed under "Other."

A leadership activity could be employment (like a shift supervisor), volunteer (president of a service club) or a hobby (leader of a band), so you could list it under any of those categories, but probably it's best to list it under "Leadership" to make it stand out if you have nothing else.

For something like tutoring or TA, you have a choice of listing it under "employment-not military" or "teaching/mentoring," but you would only list it in one of the two places.

 

[dw2158]

is anyone else continually frustrated by the fact that there is no option for NON-volunteer clinical stuff? i have tons of community service, and tons of clinical experience. it just so happens that the two don't overlap. arrrrgh.
/rant.

 

[236116]

is anyone else continually frustrated by the fact that there is no option for NON-volunteer clinical stuff? i have tons of community service, and tons of clinical experience. it just so happens that the two don't overlap. arrrrgh.
/rant.

You mean like, work, or something?

 

[AdmiralChz]

is anyone else continually frustrated by the fact that there is no option for NON-volunteer clinical stuff? i have tons of community service, and tons of clinical experience. it just so happens that the two don't overlap. arrrrgh.
/rant.

I did volunteer EMS for 4 years - absolutely loved it. And it hits both (community service, clinical exp) pretty well.

 

[dw2158]

You mean like, work, or something?

yes, i mean like, work or something. i've had two paid jobs that got me clinical experience. i feel like there should be a category for that. my volunteering stuff is in the public health/education area so it's non-medical/clinical.

I did volunteer EMS for 4 years - absolutely loved it. And it hits both (community service, clinical exp) pretty well.

ok... ?

 

[236116]

yes, i mean like, work or something. i've had two paid jobs that got me clinical experience. i feel like there should be a category for that. my volunteering stuff is in the public health/education area so it's non-medical/clinical.

Aren't there spots for employment/clinical and volunteering/non-clinical?

 

[dw2158]

Aren't there spots for employment/clinical and volunteering/non-clinical?

yes for volunteering/non-clinical, no for employment/clinical. i have SO many volunteering hours that i'm not worried about that, but i want a way to showcase my clinical stuff. it's going to be a challenge but i guess i'll make it very clear in my descriptions of the activities

 

[student1799]

I.e. nonpaid research involving patient contact, resulting in publication, maybe award, in a hospital.
^Can some aspects of that count under 1 or 2 categories?

No, it's one or the other.

I disagree. I had a large number of hours (>400) in a clinical research program in a hospital ED that involved patient contact, but also shadowing residents and observing procedures. LizzyM suggested that I put this down as "research," but when I showed my app to a former adcom, she advised me to put down the shadowing/observational aspects of the job as "clinical experience." Her reasoning was that I had plenty of this, based on my description of the program, but that it might appear to someone reading the application that I was lacking in this area if I classified it all as "research."

I followed this advice, and made two listings for the job: one as "Blah-blah Program, Research Experience" and another as "Blah-blah Program, Clinical Experience." Each of the two listings described in detail only the relevant aspect (research or clinical) of the program, but made it clear that they were both the same program. I didn't know how to allocate hours between the two, so I just wrote in the text field, "XXX total hours (includes both research and clinical)."

I have been admitted to med school, so I guess I can assume that this approach was OK. I talked extensively about this program in interviews, but I was never questioned about the dual AMCAS listing.

 

[dw2158]

I disagree. I had a large number of hours (>400) in a clinical research program in a hospital ED that involved patient contact, but also shadowing residents and observing procedures. LizzyM suggested that I put this down as "research," but when I showed my app to a former adcom, she advised me to put down the shadowing/observational aspects of the job as "clinical experience." Her reasoning was that I had plenty of this, based on my description of the program, but that it might appear to someone reading the application that I was lacking in this area if I classified it all as "research."

I followed this advice, and made two listings for the job: one as "Blah-blah Program, Research Experience" and another as "Blah-blah Program, Clinical Experience." Each of the two listings described in detail only the relevant aspect (research or clinical) of the program, but made it clear that they were both the same program. I didn't know how to allocate hours between the two, so I just wrote in the text field, "XXX total hours (includes both research and clinical)."

I have been admitted to med school, so I guess I can assume that this approach was OK. I talked extensively about this program in interviews, but I was never questioned about the dual AMCAS listing.

hm. good to know. and also a good reminder that as helpful as LizzyM is, she is only one adcom member and not representative of every single one at every single school.

i would guess that as long as you're clear about what the activities were, which means being clear that you're not trying to mislead anyone, the adcom won't really care how things are classified. methinks i will reevaluate my job this year and how to enter it into the forms. hm.

 

[LizzyM]

I disagree. I had a large number of hours (>400) in a clinical research program in a hospital ED that involved patient contact, but also shadowing residents and observing procedures. LizzyM suggested that I put this down as "research," .

If you are involved in a clinical research program, it is research. Of course, if you aren't paid, you might call it "volunteer, clinical". If you are paid, you might call it "employment, non-military". So much of this is a judgment call. The adcom does read the title, description, etc and can see where something that was employment or research might had provided clinical exposure as well.

I just call 'em as I see 'em. In many cases, there is more than one way to classify an item.

 

[Shawnpremed]

I disagree. I had a large number of hours (>400) in a clinical research program in a hospital ED that involved patient contact, but also shadowing residents and observing procedures. LizzyM suggested that I put this down as "research," but when I showed my app to a former adcom, she advised me to put down the shadowing/observational aspects of the job as "clinical experience." Her reasoning was that I had plenty of this, based on my description of the program, but that it might appear to someone reading the application that I was lacking in this area if I classified it all as "research."

I followed this advice, and made two listings for the job: one as "Blah-blah Program, Research Experience" and another as "Blah-blah Program, Clinical Experience." Each of the two listings described in detail only the relevant aspect (research or clinical) of the program, but made it clear that they were both the same program. I didn't know how to allocate hours between the two, so I just wrote in the text field, "XXX total hours (includes both research and clinical)."

I have been admitted to med school, so I guess I can assume that this approach was OK. I talked extensively about this program in interviews, but I was never questioned about the dual AMCAS listing.

THat's what I was thinking. If you enjoy hospital activities, i.e. clinical research job that covers multiple things, and you should be able to give credit to different tasks you do i.e. shadowing, research, patient contact should be separated IMHO, as long as you don't OD it.

 

[Ariadne]

If you are involved in a clinical research program, it is research. Of course, if you aren't paid, you might call it "volunteer, clinical". If you are paid, you might call it "employment, non-military". So much of this is a judgment call. The adcom does read the title, description, etc and can see where something that was employment or research might had provided clinical exposure as well.

I just call 'em as I see 'em. In many cases, there is more than one way to classify an item.

Does it really make a difference? If we have multiple paid teaching and research positions, will it have an impact on our application if we list them all as "employment, non-military" versus as "research" or "teaching/tutoring?"

I've been really frustrated by this and not sure what to do...

 

[236116]

Does it really make a difference? If we have multiple paid teaching and research positions, will it have an impact on our application if we list them all as "employment, non-military" versus as "research" or "teaching/tutoring?"

I've been really frustrated by this and not sure what to do...

If you can look at something, and say 50% of it was z, and 50% was j, then split it out.

If the paycheck meant more, it's a job. If the research or the teaching did, it's that.

 

[Ariadne]

If you can look at something, and say 50% of it was z, and 50% was j, then split it out.

If the paycheck meant more, it's a job. If the research or the teaching did, it's that.

😕

I don't know what this means. They paychecks are important as they pay rent, food, tuition... That doesn't take away from, or alter, the experience itself in any way.

 

[236116]

😕

I don't know what this means. They paychecks are important as they pay rent, food, tuition... That doesn't take away from, or alter, the experience itself in any way.

Assume you didn't have to worry about the money.

Would you still have done it?

 

[Ariadne]

Assume you didn't have to worry about the money.

Would you still have done it?

Maybe, probably not as much of it (I work three jobs for a combined total of about 40 hours a week). Sorry, I guess I still don't get your point.

 

[pianola]

I'll just be very straightforward here:

Many of my activities fell into more than one category. For the ones that fell into more than one category, I just put them into the category that best rounded-out my application. So if I had 10 activities that counted as BOTH artistic endeavor AND paid work, I would list half as artistic endeavor and half as paid work.



We don't all fit into the little boxes provided by AMCAS. Do what makes your application look prettiest.

And for pity sake don't take it so seriously!

 

[dw2158]

I'll just be very straightforward here:

Many of my activities fell into more than one category. For the ones that fell into more than one category, I just put them into the category that best rounded-out my application. So if I had 10 activities that counted as BOTH artistic endeavor AND paid work, I would list half as artistic endeavor and half as paid work.



We don't all fit into the little boxes provided by AMCAS. Do what makes your application look prettiest.

And for pity sake don't take it so seriously!

best post in this thread. 👍

EDIT: 400 posts! okay, not so exciting next to all you 1K+ peeps, but still...

 

[Ariadne]

And for pity sake don't take it so seriously!

I think it's easier to take that approach once you have an acceptance in hand. 🙂

But thank you for the advice, it was helpful.

 

[236116]

Maybe, probably not as much of it (I work three jobs for a combined total of about 40 hours a week). Sorry, I guess I still don't get your point.

Sounds like it's just a job to you then.

 

[pianola]

I think it's easier to take that approach once you have an acceptance in hand. 🙂

But thank you for the advice, it was helpful.

Heh, I thought about that after I posted it. And you're right 😛.

But seriously, though: I'm inclined to think that the designation may not matter THAT much. I think I got "double credit" for some of my "teaching/tutoring" experiences being "paid work" as well.

And if you feel like you're not getting "extra credit", don't hesitate to explain in interviews how your teaching/tutoring experience was also a great opportunity to develop leadership skills, and make some money to support yourself through your degree 😀.

to all you guys, btw.

 

[Ariadne]

Heh, I thought about that after I posted it. And you're right 😛.

But seriously, though: I'm inclined to think that the designation may not matter THAT much. I think I got "double credit" for some of my "teaching/tutoring" experiences being "paid work" as well.

And if you feel like you're not getting "extra credit", don't hesitate to explain in interviews how your teaching/tutoring experience was also a great opportunity to develop leadership skills, and make some money to support yourself through your degree 😀.

to all you guys, btw.

So, if you listed something as teaching/tutoring, did you include in the text that it was paid as well? Or just mention it at interviews?

 

[Ariadne]

Sounds like it's just a job to you then.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I sort of take offense to this statement. I completely support myself (tuition, living expenses, etc.) financially, and considering my situation, am in minimal debt coming out of 6 years of undergraduate. Just because I've had to work to support myself, doesn't mean my work experiences aren't valuable to me beyond the worth of my paychecks.

In fact, I've worked very hard to insure that whenever possible, I've worked in an area that has strengthened my skill set for, and awareness of, the field of medicine. Getting a paycheck for my efforts does not invalidate that. If I didn't have to work for the money, I might not being doing the exact same positions with such demanding hours, but I'd be looking for the same experiences in non-paid capacities.

 

[pianola]

So, if you listed something as teaching/tutoring, did you include in the text that it was paid as well? Or just mention it at interviews?

Actually, the fact that it was paid was implied in the text because I was hired by my college to do the tutoring.

I also included my employment with a test-prep company under teaching/tutoring -- I think the fact that it was "paid employment" was also a given.

 

[236116]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I sort of take offense to this statement. I completely support myself (tuition, living expenses, etc.) financially, and considering my situation, am in minimal debt coming out of 6 years of undergraduate. Just because I've had to work to support myself, doesn't mean my work experiences aren't valuable to me beyond the worth of my paychecks.

In fact, I've worked very hard to insure that whenever possible, I've worked in an area that has strengthened my skill set for, and awareness of, the field of medicine. Getting a paycheck for my efforts does not invalidate that. If I didn't have to work for the money, I might not being doing the exact same positions with such demanding hours, but I'd be looking for the same experiences in non-paid capacities.

You are.

Had you said what you just said, then I'd have said to stick it one of the other categories.

 

[pianola]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I sort of take offense to this statement. I completely support myself (tuition, living expenses, etc.) financially, and considering my situation, am in minimal debt coming out of 6 years of undergraduate. Just because I've had to work to support myself, doesn't mean my work experiences aren't valuable to me beyond the worth of my paychecks.

In fact, I've worked very hard to insure that whenever possible, I've worked in an area that has strengthened my skill set for, and awareness of, the field of medicine. Getting a paycheck for my efforts does not invalidate that. If I didn't have to work for the money, I might not being doing the exact same positions with such demanding hours, but I'd be looking for the same experiences in non-paid capacities.

Yeah I understand your position. I'd look at the rest of your application and see if you have more "clinical experiences" than "paid employment" and basically try to "even out" the application as much as possible. Honestly, I don't think the category matters nearly as much as the description does. So if you can convey to adcoms what you conveyed to us about the importance of your activity/relevance to medicine, then you should come out ok.

 

[Ariadne]

Actually, the fact that it was paid was implied in the text because I was hired by my college to do the tutoring.

I also included my employment with a test-prep company under teaching/tutoring -- I think the fact that it was "paid employment" was also a given.

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes, I have to keep reminding myself that adcoms are not idiots and will be able to figure these things out... 😳

To jurassicpark: thanks for the clarification. Sorry to jump down your throat.

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[236116]

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes, I have to keep reminding myself that adcoms are not idiots and will be able to figure these things out... 😳

To jurassicpark: thanks for the clarification. Sorry to jump down your throat.

Thanks for the help everyone!

🙂 Quite all right. Best of luck!

(As it happens, I find myself in the same position wrt to employment, so. 😎)

 

[rgatt2]

If you TA'ed for credit, but also work at a student tutoring center for pay, can those be listed separately under tutoring/mentoring, and paid work, respectively?
Or would it all go under tutoring/mentoring?

 

[pianola]

If you TA'ed for credit, but also work at a student tutoring center for pay, can those be listed separately under tutoring/mentoring, and paid work, respectively?
Or would it all go under tutoring/mentoring?

You can do it whichever way floats your boat. If you are going to exceed 15 activities, better to lump them together. If you are not going to exceed 15 activities, it might be clearer to space them out.

Your call.

 

[dw2158]

maybe it's not my place to be suggesting this, but i think this thread is becoming really similar to another great thread that already exists: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=202513
shouldn't we try to keep the discussion there?