Americans at UK medical schools?

[ButAtYourBest]

Sorry, I'm a little exhausted from researching, so I'm just going to list my questions about Americans at UK medical schools.

I have a BA in psychology. I am currently doing a post-bac for my pre-med pre-req's. My undergrad GPA is not so strong, so I am looking into alternative set-ups than the traditional American allo-MD route (I know UK schools aren't necessarily easier! but I'm just expanding my options).

I studied abroad in London, and loved it. So I am thinking about the UK. However, I know their system is very different.

Can someone explain the differences for every step of the process (including residency, etc.)? I know the degree is different. But honestly, I wouldn't mind being "stuck" in the UK for a while, since I studied abroad in London and absolutely loved it. Naively, I imagine EVENTUALLY I should be able to figure a way to transfer my degree to and work in the U.S. if I really want to be back in the States(?)

Will I begin med school with students who are fresh out of high school? How many years is med school in the UK and what is the break down (classes and rotations?)? If i do residency/internship in UK, can I still eventually (say a decade later) transfer to the U.S.? what is the residency/internship/fellowship/specialization process like in the UK? Are there schools in/close to London that take a lot of American students? Any of them easy enough to get into if you got shut out my all American allo- schools?

Are there pre-req's for admission (ala the american BCMP pre-reqs?)? what is the UK version of the MCAT like?

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[jtlc2345]

Long post, will try my best at explaining what I can:

There are two types of medical degree programmes in the UK - traditional and graduate entry. As you can imagine, graduate entry programmes are for those who have already completed an undergraduate degree (or higher). Since you already have a BA, I would presume that you would be eligible for both traditional and graduate entry programmes (although it would be prudent to check with the individual medical schools that you may wish to apply to that your BA make you eligible for the graduate entry programmes). The main advantage of the graduate entry programme is that it tends to be shorter (4 years), than traditional programmes (5 years) which those straight out of high school (like me) undertake.

As for how the course divided up, most will be more lecture and lab based for the first 1-2 years of the course and then clinical rotations for the remainder of the time. However, this varies between courses and universities and some have a greater emphasis on clinical contact in the early years.

Most medical schools now require a pre-admission aptitude test, namely either the UKCAT (http://www.ukcat.ac.uk/) or BMAT (http://www.admissionstests.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/adt/bmat) depending on the school. I was in the pilot year for the BMAT and it has changed a bit since I did it, so would be worth waiting for someone who has been through the admissions process more recently than I have to comment.

Post graduation, everyone embarks on a two-year Foundation Programme (http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home) where you do at least one surgical and one medical rotation. After that you decide upon which specialty you would like to enter. The London Deanery has a good list of specialty schools (http://www.londondeanery.ac.uk/specialty-schools). For some of these schools e.g. Paediatrics, you will only apply at this point and if accepted, will be guaranteed training until you qualify as a consultant (roughly eight years). For other specialties, for example the medical specialties like Cardiology, you apply for what is known as Core Medical Training (two years) before reapplying for specialist training in Cardiology (five years). Most people in specialist training tend to do some form of research degree lengthening their time of training by at least a couple of years.

Moving back to the US will require you take the USMLEs and then applying for a position - this isn't an area that I know much about so will leave alone.

How easy is it for an American to get into a London medical school - I have no idea I'm afraid.

Hope at least some of this is useful

Jonathan

 

[bambi]

It's not exactly true to say the first couple of years are lecture or lab based, it will vary massively on the school. UCL where jtlc goes is and so are a few others but a lot are more focused on PBL or small group teaching.

Is your degree a UK one? If it is admissions will be easier than if you had a US degree but as it is a BA rather than a BSc you probably wont be eligible for all of the 4 year courses. I haven't checked for a few years but there used to only be a few that would accept a non-science degree.

A lot of schools have a cap on international places, usually around 10%. The majority of international students aren't American though if that's what you were hoping, in my year (of around 500) there is just 1 I think, he's on here somewhere actually so would be able to give you better info.

UK schools are not an easy option, if you can't get into any US MD school you almost definitely wont be able to get in here. Unlike in the US where admissions requirements seem to vary, our schools all require pretty much exactly the same qualifications, so if you aren't good enough for one you generally aren't good enough. Those that don't require a specific GPA will say you need what you would need to get in in your own country. Also, we can only apply to 4 schools. Some people still say though that it is easier for internationals to get in because the schools want their higher fees, I don't know how true that is.

What sort of work experience do you have?

 

[jtlc2345]

It's not exactly true to say the first couple of years are lecture or lab based, it will vary massively on the school. UCL where jtlc goes is and so are a few others but a lot are more focused on PBL or small group teaching.

Fair point - just another factor to take into account when choosing a medical school.

Jonathan

 

[ButAtYourBest]

Wow....sounds very long.

-4-5 years of med school
-2 years of foundation program
-8 years of specialization training

-15 years total?

in the U.S. it is generally:
-4 years of medical school
-4 years of Residency

-8 years total (then, if you want to specialize further, you can do a fellowship, which varies, but could be 2-4 extra years, so 10-12 years total).

Am I really off? I suppose it works out if you started when you're 18 years old (ala american undergrad), but as a graduate, it seems significantly lengthy. The 8 years of specialization training is what leaps out at me.

Thanks for the info, though!

 

[jtlc2345]

Wow....sounds very long.

-4-5 years of med school
-2 years of foundation program
-8 years of specialization training

-15 years total?

Pretty much give or take a couple of years depending on the particular specialty and if you take time out to do research, etc...

Jonathan

 

[usmd]

You forgot to mention that after all this training, even though you qualify as a consultant, you don't automatically have a position as a consultant. In the US, it is very easy to find work as an attending or in private practice once you are done with training. I suppose in the UK, you may be able to easily find a position as a GP, but as a Specialist Consultant, it is difficult. You practically have to wait until someone retires or dies, unless a trust/hospital sets up new positions. So, many trainees remain as specialists, working under a consultant. That was the motive for one of my residency friends to move to the US, rather than remain in the UK.

I have been able to come to the UK as an attending and have received my registration without having to take extra exams, but the only jobs I can take on at the moment are pretty much "house officers" or "specialty training doctors". After a year, and being on the specialty registrar, I may be able to apply for the rare consultant job.

The reverse may be worse. Consultants here would have to repeat exams (USMLE) as well as residency before they can become board eligible and able to practice as attendings. However, the time it takes to get to that point may be a lot shorter.

So, if you plan on studying in the UK, and are lucky enough to get in, it would be best to do the residency in the US.

 

[hmm...]

Wow....sounds very long.

-4-5 years of med school
-2 years of foundation program
-8 years of specialization training

-15 years total?

in the U.S. it is generally:
-4 years of medical school
-4 years of Residency

-8 years total (then, if you want to specialize further, you can do a fellowship, which varies, but could be 2-4 extra years, so 10-12 years total).

Am I really off? I suppose it works out if you started when you're 18 years old (ala american undergrad), but as a graduate, it seems significantly lengthy. The 8 years of specialization training is what leaps out at me.

Thanks for the info, though!

From what I understand, students in UK start medical training secondary like a Joint BS/MD program here. So matriculating students will be 19-20yo.

It is interesting to know the admission process works. From what I read on pg 28HERE, King's College requires AAA A-levels and B at AS level. There is apparently an interview in addition to the UKMAT(which apparently is only an aptitude and not a content exam). So the admission criteria seems similar to BS/MD programs' GPA/interview/SAT requirements. I wonder how else they weed people out and how competitive it is to get into med school. Do they consider extracurrics? Do they weigh the UKMAT as heavy as the US weighs SAT?

 

[bambi]

From what I understand, students in UK start medical training secondary like a Joint BS/MD program here. So matriculating students will be 19-20yo.

It is interesting to know the admission process works. From what I read on pg 28HERE, King's College requires AAA A-levels and B at AS level. There is apparently an interview in addition to the UKMAT(which apparently is only an aptitude and not a content exam). So the admission criteria seems similar to BS/MD programs' GPA/interview/SAT requirements. I wonder how else they weed people out and how competitive it is to get into med school. Do they consider extracurrics? Do they weigh the UKMAT as heavy as the US weighs SAT?

Yes they consider extra-curricular activities- they are a major thing in fact. How much the UKCAT is used varies by school, some still use other tests and it is only a few years old, I'm 4th year now and didn't have to take it. Basically to get in we need almost perfect grades, a lot of work experience and varied + interesting ecs and the ability to write about all of that well on our personal statement and a good performance at interview.

Most people entering med school in the UK are 18 (lots are older but I'm talking about the majority). Our high school education exceeds that of the US so it is more similar to starting half-way through US college than after US high school.

 

[jtlc2345]

This site http://www.medschoolsonline.co.uk/index.php?pageid=78 offers some statistics on the UK medical schools.

Jonathan

 

[Winged Scapula]

The OP needs to realize that if he desires to come back to the states and work it is NOT as easy as taking the USMLEs and getting a job.

Depending on your specialty, some to none of your graduate medical training from the UK will be accepted. Most positions and hospital credentialing processes require you be board eligible, which again, depending on specialty, may not be possible if you have not done your training in the US. Most foreign trained physicians I know were made to repeat their residency training in the US or did advanced training with separate boards which did not require BE in the basic training.

And while the training in the UK seems longer, bear in mind that in the US the hours are often longer and that some training schemes are just as long in the US (it took me 15 years to finish here in the US: 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 5 years residency, 2 years fellowship).

 

[PD187540]

Hmm, studying in England seems like an interesting option. The only caveat here would be financial aid. How would an American student go about financing his/her medical education in England?

Are Americans able to get loans from the US gov't? Or is there another type of loan program available?

 

[bambi]

The OP needs to realize that if he desires to come back to the states and work it is NOT as easy as taking the USMLEs and getting a job.

Depending on your specialty, some to none of your graduate medical training from the UK will be accepted. Most positions and hospital credentialing processes require you be board eligible, which again, depending on specialty, may not be possible if you have not done your training in the US. Most foreign trained physicians I know were made to repeat their residency training in the US or did advanced training with separate boards which did not require BE in the basic training.

And while the training in the UK seems longer, bear in mind that in the US the hours are often longer and that some training schemes are just as long in the US (it took me 15 years to finish here in the US: 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 5 years residency, 2 years fellowship).

Apart from family medicine maybe our training is far longer. Training for my chosen specialty is likely to be 14 years, after med school. Most medical specialties are at the very least 7 years after med school, and that's just basic training, no fellowships. Surgical specialties are a lot longer.

Having recently come back from some time working in the US I can safely say that yes your hours are longer, however ours are busier, you don't achieve anything in a day that we don't. I'm sure it varies a lot based on place, person and specialty but that is my experience.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Apart from family medicine maybe our training is far longer. Training for my chosen specialty is likely to be 14 years, after med school. Most medical specialties are at the very least 7 years after med school, and that's just basic training, no fellowships. Surgical specialties are a lot longer.

Having recently come back from some time working in the US I can safely say that yes your hours are longer, however ours are busier, you don't achieve anything in a day that we don't. I'm sure it varies a lot based on place, person and specialty but that is my experience.

Strange - my experience in the U.K. was the exact opposite. It was like a vacation! Rounds not starting until 9am (when U.S. rounds are long over), no weekends, less complicated patients and smaller patient census. Anecdotal, I suppose.

 

[bambi]

Strange - my experience in the U.K. was the exact opposite. It was like a vacation! Rounds not starting until 9am (when U.S. rounds are long over), no weekends, less complicated patients and smaller patient census. Anecdotal, I suppose.

Our day definitely starts later but it finishes later too. Sounds like you did medicine if you are saying rounds at 9, I did a surgical sub-specialty so already that can explain a lot of the differences. It will vary massively by specialty and hospital. No weekends? Do you mean as a student or a doctor? Very little is expected of UK students but doctors obviously do weekends. Less complicated patients? That will depend on the size of the patient population the hospital serves and whether it is a specialist centre for that specialty or if the hospital down the road is. I would say complexity was similar. Patient load however, in the specialty I did, is greater at my hospital in the UK, it serves a bigger population than the US hospital even though it was a major centre for that specialty.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Our day definitely starts later but it finishes later too. Sounds like you did medicine if you are saying rounds at 9, I did a surgical sub-specialty so already that can explain a lot of the differences. It will vary massively by specialty and hospital. No weekends? Do you mean as a student or a doctor? Very little is expected of UK students but doctors obviously do weekends. Less complicated patients? That will depend on the size of the patient population the hospital serves and whether it is a specialist centre for that specialty or if the hospital down the road is. I would say complexity was similar. Patient load however, in the specialty I did, is greater at my hospital in the UK, it serves a bigger population than the US hospital even though it was a major centre for that specialty.

Yeah - the specialty definitely can make a difference, of course. I neglected to mention that. I still think it's hysterical that house staff (at least in medicine) can average 48 hours in a week in the U.K. No surprise the training program is so long.

Which U.S. city did you do your U.S. rotation in?

 

[bambi]

Yeah - the specialty definitely can make a difference, of course. I neglected to mention that. I still think it's hysterical that house staff (at least in medicine) can average 48 hours in a week in the U.K. No surprise the training program is so long.

Which U.S. city did you do your U.S. rotation in?

No one actually does 48 hours. I know that's technically what some contracts say but it's nonsense, there is a lot of fiddling with the numbers.

East coast is all I'm saying!

 

[Scottish Chap]

No one actually does 48 hours. I know that's technically what some contracts say but it's nonsense, there is a lot of fiddling with the numbers.

East coast is all I'm saying!

Many "technically" do not do 80hrs here either--in spite of what's on paper.