An emergency doc's budget

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We had someone come to my medical school once who outlined an ophthalmologist making $350K a year and spending $380K a year. I found it very helpful. I think some current students might find this enlightening as well. I remember thinking as a student how easy it would be to live off $50K so $200K must be cake.

My wife and I don't consider ourselves big spenders and here is an example of a recent monthly budget for us.

Gross Pay $17,647

Fixed Expenses


Mortgage $3180
Other mortgage (still trying to sell it) $816
Taxes (Federal, State, SS, and medicare) $3925
Utilities $608
Insurance (Life, disability, property, liability-not malpractice) $700
401K $3406
Charity $1990

Subtotal of Fixed Expenses: $14,625

Variable Expenses
Gas $336
Food $829
Various other stuff such as entertainment, clothing, home furnishings, kids sports, gym memberships, "allowances", gifts, healthcare etc $1235
Savings towards next car, next vacation, emergency fund etc $622

Subtotal of Variable Expenses $3022

Total Expenses $17647

Notice the absence of student loan payments, car payments, and credit card payments.

For four years out of residency (while in the military) we lived much more cheaply (only had about 60% of the income) and only recently upgraded to the "attending lifestyle." (Note the size of the last mortgage payment.)

My point is that there is plenty of money if you do some planning and budgeting, but that it is very easy to spend 5 figures every month with little to show for it. Not to mention the only tax break you get is the cap on SS taxes-you're phased out of the earned income credit, the child tax credit, the student loan interest credit, and if some politicians have their way, soon the home interest deduction,the charitable contribution deduction, and the retirement savings account deductions.

As a partner in a year or so, my gross income will be higher, but I'll also be covering my share of the overhead, malpractice, and my health and dental insurance premiums so I don't expect my take home to go up dramatically.

Obviously, I could save less for retirement, have gotten a 30 year mortgage instead of a 15 year one, give less to charity, and hopefully soon have the old house sold (or put a renter in it), but you have to choose what life you want to live.

Whatever you do, don't plan a dramatic upgrade to your lifestyle immediately upon leaving residency. It's much harder to cut back later. And don't take out any more loans than you need as a student or live beyond your means as a resident. All that debt will come back to bite you.

Med students and residents:

This is one of those examples of SDN genius, priceless advice just waiting there to be found, for free. If you forget every single other letter in ActiveDutyMDs post remember these:

401K $3406

If you can put a way 20% of your income, EVERY MONTH, like he does, whether it be in a bank account or a 401k retirement account, you'll always be secure. No matter how much you make per year, be it $20,000 or $320,000 you'll be "rich" if you save 20% per month, every month. Now matter how much you make per year, be it $600,000 or $6,000,000, if you spend 1% above your means, you'll be poor.

The secret is not knowing this. The secret is having the restraint to live it.

#Bring it

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Thanks Active Duty for posting this. Very interesting to see.
 
I disagree. While every place is different, my gross is $288,000 (projected) at 120 hours per month, which is about 27 hours per week.
If he's pulling that working 40 hours a week then he is obviously on a partnership track where his income will eventually be higher.

For you speculators out there,

I am on a partnership track and work anywhere from 96 to 135 hours a month. My hourly income will go up quite a bit upon making partner, but my expenses will also climb (benefits, malpractice etc)
 
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Thanks Active Duty for posting this. Very interesting to see.

Yes, agreed. Thanks for posting this. As medical students who live off of $15,000 or whatever a year, it's so easy to say that it'll be so much better making an attending's salary. I appreciate the messages about still being smart and recognizing that expenses go up, too! Sorry to see so many people negatively commenting when all you seemed to be trying to do was help!
 
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This is a really great thread. Almost 70k more than I make per year, but all the points here are really great. In the original post. Sorry to see all the negativity. Totally don't understand that kind of mindset.
 
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Thanks to ActiveDuty for sharing.

It is funny to watch all the negative comments, "You could spend less here or there." "Don't donate to charity."

First off, it is a good idea to save some, but I think Americans can be obsessed with money sometimes. If ActiveDuty wants to spend a bit more on his house, that's fine. Yes, you could save more but then what? Then you have more $ to spend as an old person?

And don't donate to charity? It's better to give than to receive.

Guess what, the hunger to buy the bigger and better never dies. Be generous and live well, who cares if you have a ton of money in the bank when you are 65?

Having a desire to not work past 60 has always seemed like a strange desire to me. Why not find something you enjoy to do and work until you are physically unable. Sitting around doing nothing all year isn't a good strategy. Nor is going on vacations all year. A reasonable amount of work each week is good for you.

To each his own. ActiveDuty can spend however he pleases and critically examining how he spends gas money or personal expenses is ridiculous when he was generously giving you guys a look at a budget.
 
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For you speculators out there,

I am on a partnership track and work anywhere from 96 to 135 hours a month. My hourly income will go up quite a bit upon making partner, but my expenses will also climb (benefits, malpractice etc)

Are those hours out of choice or lack of availability? I can't conceive working 96hrs/mo, but that may change once our second son is born.
 
If you put your money into a traditional IRA you can immediately convert it into a Roth thanks to a tax loophole that started in 2010 and has been kept open.

Somehow I doubt that loophole will be available by the time some of us would like to take advantage of it.

Thanks to ActiveDuty for sharing.

It is funny to watch all the negative comments, "You could spend less here or there." "Don't donate to charity."

First off, it is a good idea to save some, but I think Americans can be obsessed with money sometimes. If ActiveDuty wants to spend a bit more on his house, that's fine. Yes, you could save more but then what? Then you have more $ to spend as an old person?

And don't donate to charity? It's better to give than to receive.

Guess what, the hunger to buy the bigger and better never dies. Be generous and live well, who cares if you have a ton of money in the bank when you are 65?

Having a desire to not work past 60 has always seemed like a strange desire to me. Why not find something you enjoy to do and work until you are physically unable. Sitting around doing nothing all year isn't a good strategy. Nor is going on vacations all year. A reasonable amount of work each week is good for you.

To each his own. ActiveDuty can spend however he pleases and critically examining how he spends gas money or personal expenses is ridiculous when he was generously giving you guys a look at a budget.

I agree that once you're financially able, giving to charity is a noble priority. But going on vacation all year can still provide a reasonable amount of work, especially if your vacation is sailing around the world until you're crushed by a storm. Not a bad way to go out, I'd say.
 
Yeah... that 10% to charity helped give it away. Now - a season pass to Brighton or Alta would cost you less money get you more fresh love every year anyway.

- BTW, this was a helpful thread. I found it amusing how many people were willing to bash the portion of budge this guys spends on his kids. Until you have kids (and a spouse for that matter) don't feel like you can pass judgement on how somebody wants to provide for their family.

I have had to support a family of 5 (myself, my wife, 2 toddlers and an infant) on 35k a year in student loans, which isn't even an income as I have to pay it back + interest, for all of medical school and now into residency. We qualified for WIC throughout as we were so poor. I had to rent during residency after owning during med school as my credit is so bad from trying to survive med school I couldnt get a morgate during residency. People have no idea what living frugally is until you have mouths to feed. They don't care what you made or what bills are do, they just say 'daddy i'm hungry'. So after what will be 9 damn years of living like that you can be damn sure I feel entitled to live a little extravagantly. If that means a 4k a month mortgate or several trips to disney world every year, so be it. Because if after 13 years of combined college, med school, residency and fellowship, I have to live the same way on the same budget as my old college roomates who went to school for four years and make 80k or so as engineers or financial consultants, then I'm the idiot.
 
I have had to support a family of 5 (myself, my wife, 2 toddlers and an infant) on 35k a year in student loans, which isn't even an income as I have to pay it back + interest, for all of medical school and now into residency. We qualified for WIC throughout as we were so poor. I had to rent during residency after owning during med school as my credit is so bad from trying to survive med school I couldnt get a morgate during residency. People have no idea what living frugally is until you have mouths to feed. They don't care what you made or what bills are do, they just say 'daddy i'm hungry'. So after what will be 9 damn years of living like that you can be damn sure I feel entitled to live a little extravagantly. If that means a 4k a month mortgate or several trips to disney world every year, so be it. Because if after 13 years of combined college, med school, residency and fellowship, I have to live the same way on the same budget as my old college roomates who went to school for four years and make 80k or so as engineers or financial consultants, then I'm the idiot.

Im in no position to know what it must be like for you or your family, but may I suggest that one of the points of the thread as I see it is to suggest that if you take your time after residency before upgrading your lifestyle you can certainly feed your family, improve your credit, pay off your loans, and begin shrinking your number of years to work. One of the points i took from ActiveDuty was that if we as new graduates increase our lifestyles too quickly it can be hard to scale back if necessary and hard to fix all the damage done to our financial careers in the form of credit scores, loans, and lack of retirement and adequate insurance coverage...

Again, only you know best for your family, but I am just sharing some of the take homes for me in case they are helpful for you.

Hang in there by the way.
 
Im in no position to know what it must be like for you or your family, but may I suggest that one of the points of the thread as I see it is to suggest that if you take your time after residency before upgrading your lifestyle you can certainly feed your family, improve your credit, pay off your loans, and begin shrinking your number of years to work. One of the points i took from ActiveDuty was that if we as new graduates increase our lifestyles too quickly it can be hard to scale back if necessary and hard to fix all the damage done to our financial careers in the form of credit scores, loans, and lack of retirement and adequate insurance coverage...

Again, only you know best for your family, but I am just sharing some of the take homes for me in case they are helpful for you.

Hang in there by the way.

I know what ADs points were and I think they were all valid. I greatly enjoyed his post. I was just commenting in reference to some of the other threads responses. I think most physicians, especially when they are still medical students, have no idea what having children entails in terms of your budget. So I laugh when I see people respond to ADs threads about how you should spend your money and how you can live your life less extravagantly when they have never had any real financial responsibilities. It's the typical response of the kid who's parents were docs that paid for school for them, they got to drive a caddy as a resident, they have no kids and they don't understand how we say that the average physician doesn't have the splurge money that you think when your watching TV medicine shows. Yes we all will have very good incomes compared to the rest of the workforce, but when you account for what it took to get to that point, your tax rate, saving for retirement, the massive expense that is children, it doesn't go nearly as far as you would think.
 
First off, it is a good idea to save some, but I think Americans can be obsessed with money sometimes. If ActiveDuty wants to spend a bit more on his house, that's fine. Yes, you could save more but then what? Then you have more $ to spend as an old person?

Having a desire to not work past 60 has always seemed like a strange desire to me. Why not find something you enjoy to do and work until you are physically unable. Sitting around doing nothing all year isn't a good strategy. Nor is going on vacations all year. A reasonable amount of work each week is good for you.

I can comment on both of those.

1. Saving extra for retirement is, to my eyes, always a good move. I see patients at our local NHC nursing home and let me just say, seeing that place is reason enough for me to save more so if I need nursing care I don't have to go there.

2. From talking to the EM guys here and from watching this board, I think the early retirement at 60 may be more a result of ED burnout. I know quite a few other specialists, especially outpatient doctors, who work well into their 60s. I figure its the less stressful environment for all those decades.
 
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I can comment on both of those.

1. Saving extra for retirement is, to my eyes, always a good move. I see patients at our local NHC nursing home and let me just say, seeing that place is reason enough for me to save more so if I need nursing care I don't have to go there.

2. From talking to the EM guys here and from watching this board, I think the early retirement at 60 may be more a result of ED burnout. I know quite a few other specialists, especially outpatient doctors, who work well into their 60s. I figure its the less stressful environment for all those decades.

Every older EM doctor I've talked to has complained about the nights being the worst part of getting older. If you can cut back on nights and don't hate the job, the main source of attrition is going to be from physical disability. Chronic back or knee problems make it pretty tough to function in the ED.
 
I can comment on both of those.

1. Saving extra for retirement is, to my eyes, always a good move. I see patients at our local NHC nursing home and let me just say, seeing that place is reason enough for me to save more so if I need nursing care I don't have to go there.

2. From talking to the EM guys here and from watching this board, I think the early retirement at 60 may be more a result of ED burnout. I know quite a few other specialists, especially outpatient doctors, who work well into their 60s. I figure its the less stressful environment for all those decades.

Lol, after working for 30-50+ years, how much money would you have to save per year to avoid a nursing home?

Answer? Not much.

I'd teach or do something easy and earn 50k before "retiring" if I couldn't cut it in medicine at 70. Stay healthy. Lots of people work past 60. I'm sure you could even do part time family practice, I've heard of guys making 70k working part time in FM.
 
I don't know if I'll retire at 52, but I'd like to be able to. Do I think I'll be "burnt out?" Hard to say. But you better believe the first thing I'm going to drop when I can is night shifts. Like many EPs, I have lots of other interests and would have no trouble at all filling my time without work. Would I miss the work? Probably. I do like my job.
 
What I found interesting is the "retire by 50" comment. Is this typical for ER attendings? Is there a high rate of burnout?
 
What I found interesting is the "retire by 50" comment. Is this typical for ER attendings? Is there a high rate of burnout?

Nah, half my group is over 50. None are burnt out. It's hard to feel burnt out when you're working 50-100 hours a MONTH with no night shifts like they are. (Don't feel bad for the rest of us, they pay the young bucks to work nights. The youngest partners make the most money in this group-by working more shifts and more nights.) When I talk about "retiring" at 50, that's what I'm talking about-cutting waaaay back, getting rid of the nights, and only seeing patients because I want to, not because I need to.
 
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It's hard to feel burnt out when you're working 50-100 hours a week with no night shifts like they are.

is that a month? Cutting back to 50-100 hours a week does not seem like retirement, but cutting back to 50-100 hours a month does seem like it.

Are there many ERs out there that have the new people work ONLY night shifts? I may be interested in starting out with only night shifts. I think that rotating through the different time shifts would be harder than working only one type of shift.

dsoz
 
is that a month? Cutting back to 50-100 hours a week does not seem like retirement, but cutting back to 50-100 hours a month does seem like it.

Are there many ERs out there that have the new people work ONLY night shifts? I may be interested in starting out with only night shifts. I think that rotating through the different time shifts would be harder than working only one type of shift.

dsoz

There's almost always room in a group for someone that works only nights. Being a nocturnist is one of the few blue chip bargaining pieces a new grad will have and can often be negotiated into a fix schedule (working the same 3-4 nights a week , no weekends, 5 on 5 off, etc.)
 
loving this thread.

any other brave souls care to share their budget?
 
Can anyone comment on salary/benefits in Chicago? Is it roughly the same as the national averages I have been seeing, 231-247?
 
any other brave souls care to share their budget?

Give me a couple months to figure out mine and I'll get there. I don't get real money until July.

For the record, though, I did double my resident salary with moonlighting, and only worked about 3 days/month doing so.
 
For those of you about to start as attendings, do you plan on being able to do EM around 55 or 60?

After reading SDN, it seems like everyone would be burned out of the field before this time. What do you do if you want to work for another 20 years?
 
I work for a partnership (will officially become partner in July) the 17k is a bit on the low end nationally but depending on his partnership that might be right. Credit to him for posting this out. It helps people see it. Certainly criticizing him or his budget is f-in ridiculous. You might not like where he spends his money but take it as a lesson. I cant tell you how many docs are out there blowing money like its never gonna stop coming. My budget isnt much different but I have some other indulgences like a maid, I also pay for kids day care. I have a bundle of student loans too which is where my money goes. Personally as my loans are paid off it is like a pay raise!

I think you can find an entry level job at 350k with limited or no upside. In the phoenix area it isnt too tough to find a job paying 180-210 / hour with no upside. you could make a real nice living doing that.
 
For those of you about to start as attendings, do you plan on being able to do EM around 55 or 60?

After reading SDN, it seems like everyone would be burned out of the field before this time. What do you do if you want to work for another 20 years?

Personally without knowing what obamacare is gonna do I plan on being able to retire at 51. Thats when I will have enough money that I will be able to retire and live a lifestyle like I want. The reality is I will probably work way beyond that but just cut my hours to the point I want. If I want to do 100/month or 120/month Ill be able to. Until then Im just doing my thing and tucking every penny I can squeeze into my loans or tax deferred retirement.

My group has about 1/3 of our docs over 50, another 1/3 40-50 and another 1/3 under 40.

Some of the older guys who have planned well financially have really cut back their hours whereas a few of them still work a ton cause they have to. Thats the group I dont want to be in and the group I hope I am smart enough to avoid as I think this leads to burnout. Its one thing to work cause you want to and another cause you have to after 20+ years.
 
I just wanted to thank AD for posting his budget. For some of us medical students, it helps gain perspective of what lies ahead. All of us work so hard for a delayed benefit, its nice to know there will be fruit.
 
Out of curiosity, since most EM models are based on an hourly wage, does that give you some anxiety not knowing an annual salary or are your hours basically guaranteed for the year? Thanks!
 
Out of curiosity, since most EM models are based on an hourly wage, does that give you some anxiety not knowing an annual salary or are your hours basically guaranteed for the year? Thanks!

No, my contract guarantees a certain minimum number of hours, and we can live on that amount of money. Plus the likelihood of not getting more is quite low. So no, no anxiety.

More so than the money I worry (just a bit since it hasn't been an issue yet) about getting enough hours so I can make partner at the earliest time (2 year mark.) It's a 2 year minimum but with a minimum number of hours too. I'm on track to hit it now at 2 years, but if I started only getting the minimum number of shifts that (along with the raise that comes with making partner) would be delayed a few months.
 
I work for a partnership (will officially become partner in July) the 17k is a bit on the low end nationally but depending on his partnership that might be right.

You think that's on the low end you should have seen when I was making half that much in the military! I think my average pay is about average for a pre-partner job (perhaps even a bit more than average) but I definitely work fewer hours than most pre-partners, thus the lower salary. Also, I see fewer patients (though more than average in my group) than most EPs due to a bit lower volume in our ED- maybe 1.5 an hour.

I think you can find an entry level job at 350k with limited or no upside. In the phoenix area it isnt too tough to find a job paying 180-210 / hour with no upside. you could make a real nice living doing that.

Sure, I could go work for a contract management group for $200/hour, but once I make partner I'll be doing better than that every month, so the pre-partner years are a bit of an investment.

Annual salaries don't mean much to me when it comes to emergency medicine. You could make $400-500K pretty easy in EM if you just work a ton of shifts. Taking one of these jobs in a crappy ED in a crappy place that are advertised in the throw-aways could pay you $300 an hour. If you work twenty 12-hour shifts (let's say you get 13 hours a piece) =$300/hour*13*20*12 months= $936,000. But how long are you going to last doing that?
 
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Would some of the residents be willing to post their budgets? I have a pretty good idea of what my expenses will be, but I'd appreciate seeing what other people are doing. Thanks in advance.
 
ER pgy1 midwestern program

-2800 dollars each month after mandatory contribution into 401k of 10% of salary(matched by university)
-rent 600
-utilities averaged 100
-loan repayment 800
-Roth IRA 420(for 5k max per year)
-gas-75(bike to work)
-gym fee-85
-food 400
-random expenses- 380

of note you get the lifetime learning credit your first year in residency which is 2k back and i got another 1 k back so an extra 3k which i largely spent on clothes and shoes

i didn't travel anywhere on my vacations, not married
 
You think that's on the low end you should have seen when I was making half that much in the military! I think my average pay is about average for a pre-partner job (perhaps even a bit more than average) but I definitely work fewer hours than most pre-partners, thus the lower salary. Also, I see fewer patients (though more than average in my group) than most EPs due to a bit lower volume in our ED- maybe 1.5 an hour.



Sure, I could go work for a contract management group for $200/hour, but once I make partner I'll be doing better than that every month, so the pre-partner years are a bit of an investment.

Annual salaries don't mean much to me when it comes to emergency medicine. You could make $400-500K pretty easy in EM if you just work a ton of shifts. Taking one of these jobs in a crappy ED in a crappy place that are advertised in the throw-aways could pay you $300 an hour. If you work twenty 12-hour shifts (let's say you get 13 hours a piece) =$300/hour*13*20*12 months= $936,000. But how long are you going to last doing that?

Hey I wasnt criticizing. I am an attending and just made partner at my group. I could have made literally 50% more and perhaps up to 100% more (for a real crappy deal) at other jobs. As a full partner I dont think there are too many jobs paying more than my group so thats why I did what I did. I probably work more than you. My contracted minimum is 146 hours per month. I do 12-12s and they are ok with that. Sometimes I work a little more but never more than 15 days per month. I make $155 per hour and this number goes up as a partner (July 2011) but th emoney comes in the form of a bonus and very minor jump in actual salary. I wasnt criticizing you in any way. I was just pointing out to one of the posters you could make 350k and those jobs are out there. Do they suck? Yep.. but they are there. A guy from my residency took a job in OKC and made like 500k and left after 2 years, we have 10 guys in my group who have been around 20 years and almost no one ever leaves. Of the past 12 hires only 1 left.
 
Hey I wasnt criticizing. I am an attending and just made partner at my group. I could have made literally 50% more and perhaps up to 100% more (for a real crappy deal) at other jobs. As a full partner I dont think there are too many jobs paying more than my group so thats why I did what I did. I probably work more than you. My contracted minimum is 146 hours per month. I do 12-12s and they are ok with that. Sometimes I work a little more but never more than 15 days per month. I make $155 per hour and this number goes up as a partner (July 2011) but th emoney comes in the form of a bonus and very minor jump in actual salary. I wasnt criticizing you in any way. I was just pointing out to one of the posters you could make 350k and those jobs are out there. Do they suck? Yep.. but they are there. A guy from my residency took a job in OKC and made like 500k and left after 2 years, we have 10 guys in my group who have been around 20 years and almost no one ever leaves. Of the past 12 hires only 1 left.

Didn't mean to come across as suggesting you were criticizing. Sounds like you're in a group similar to mine, which doesn't surprise me, since as I recall we went to the same program just a few years apart.
 
Didn't mean to come across as suggesting you were criticizing. Sounds like you're in a group similar to mine, which doesn't surprise me, since as I recall we went to the same program just a few years apart.

Ok. I was simply pointing to some of the hungrier short timers that the money is def out there. IMO if you are committed to a long career at one place like I am a smallish democratic group is the way to go. My group is ~40 docs lots of equality and everyone treats everyone well. No one ever pulled rank on me or any of that other bs. IMO those groups are hard to find but well worth the search. I moonlit for EmCare and not to start a fight but I couldnt imagine spending my career working for a company like that (e.g. EmCare, Teamhealth, EPMG, EMP etc).

On another note I read somewhere that EmCare went private for 3.2 billion. IMO thats money that belongs in some EM docs pocket somewhere.
 
ActiveDutyMD. No loans correct, as you are in the military I assume?

No longer in the military, but no loans thanks to Uncle Sam. Not sure it was a good deal overall, but at least I don't have loans. Although some people end up with loans despite the stipend. It was only $900 a month when I was in school. It's more than double that now.
 
A few reactions to this very useful thread...imho

- charitable giving is a habit. It will go up and down with income, but if you dont do it all when you are poor (giving time counts), you arent likely to make it a priority when you are making more.
- retiring early has more to do with what you spend than what you make. I retired in my mid forties. My peers drive beamers and are buying second houses and vacationing in Hawaii. I drive a honda civic, fix up my fixerupper, and vacation in Michigan.
- I doubt most people on this thread will really retire. More likely theyll make the time for one or more of their unfulfilled passions. For my part, I am privilged to go to med school and become a doctor, hopefully in EM.
- I believe the rate of change in our society is accelerating. Having the mindset and funds to be flexible may well prove to be the most important determinants of one's future.

Peace, sp
 
A few reactions to this very useful thread...imho

- charitable giving is a habit. It will go up and down with income, but if you dont do it all when you are poor (giving time counts), you arent likely to make it a priority when you are making more.
- retiring early has more to do with what you spend than what you make. I retired in my mid forties. My peers drive beamers and are buying second houses and vacationing in Hawaii. I drive a honda civic, fix up my fixerupper, and vacation in Michigan.
- I doubt most people on this thread will really retire. More likely theyll make the time for one or more of their unfulfilled passions. For my part, I am privilged to go to med school and become a doctor, hopefully in EM.
- I believe the rate of change in our society is accelerating. Having the mindset and funds to be flexible may well prove to be the most important determinants of one's future.

Peace, sp

Are you a retired hedge fund manager with a heart! :smuggrin:

JK, I hope you have a wonderful time in med school. The first 2 years are awesome. It's like being in high school again, except with a crap load more to study. The cool kids sit in the back and want to do ortho ;)
 
The cool kids sit in the back and want to do ortho ;)

Actually, the cool kids sit in back and want to do EM. The ortho cats sit way up front or don't come at all.

BTW the 3rd kills the 2nd year and from what I hear, the 4th year may be the best of your life.
 
Actually, the cool kids sit in back and want to do EM. The ortho cats sit way up front or don't come at all.

BTW the 3rd kills the 2nd year and from what I hear, the 4th year may be the best of your life.

Can't wait! And I'll be sure to sit in the back:cool:
 
I dont think most people will retire at a young age its more about being able to. Personally (im just a couple of years out) my financial plan will allow me to retire in 17-18 years when I am in my early 50s.

I just want to know I can though if things dont go to complete crap I want to work as long as I can though I may take a sabbatical or really cut back my hours.

IMO I spent my whole life working to get here why would I want to quit.
 
I want to work as long as I can though I may take a sabbatical or really cut back my hours.

This is the way I see things. My idea of retirement is working only what hours I want and when I want to. When I am in my late 50's, I hope to "retire" to day shifts only.

One of my attendings is in her late 30s and only works days (and not so many of those)...she makes 65% FTE or something, but explains that 120K+ is plenty for her - and she explains this with a smile. :D

She will occasionally moonlight in a grunt shop to keep her skills up and for "shoe money", as she calls it.

HH
 
This is the way I see things. My idea of retirement is working only what hours I want and when I want to. When I am in my late 50's, I hope to "retire" to day shifts only.

One of my attendings is in her late 30s and only works days (and not so many of those)...she makes 65% FTE or something, but explains that 120K+ is plenty for her - and she explains this with a smile. :D

She will occasionally moonlight in a grunt shop to keep her skills up and for "shoe money", as she calls it.

HH

Where I work after 20 years you dont have to do ANY nights. As things stand now we have enough night coverage that starting in August only the night guys will cover those shifts with the exception of maybe 3-5 shifts a month and thats for 40 docs.
 
A 457 is nice if your employer offers it. If your group has a 401K/profit sharing that allows $49K there is no point to a 457. Most people with 457s have a 403b and work in academia and no 401K.

You don't need 17 different Roths. You put the money in a traditional IRA each year. It isn't deductible of course because you make too much. The next day, you roll it into your Roth IRA. Repeat next year with the same 2 accounts. It's really easy. Don't know how long the loophole will stay open, but I'll use it while it does.

I wanted to ask why you decided to roll over so much of your retirement into roth IRAs. Couldn't you have done a Roth 401K or Roth 403b if at an academic 501(c). What is the advantage of rolling over into a roth besides maybe earlier access to the funds which I think is 59 1/2 for roth IRA.

Also are you doing this so that you'll have a mixture of income during retirement? I have seen on bogleheads.org that having a mixture of taxable and non-taxable accounts are best for retirement. Specifically they were saying that it would be advantageous to take out taxable investments up to the 15% or so marginal tax rate and then take the rest of what you need out from your roth IRAs so that it doesn't increase your AGI.
 
I wanted to ask why you decided to roll over so much of your retirement into roth IRAs. Couldn't you have done a Roth 401K or Roth 403b if at an academic 501(c). What is the advantage of rolling over into a roth besides maybe earlier access to the funds which I think is 59 1/2 for roth IRA.

Also are you doing this so that you'll have a mixture of income during retirement? I have seen on bogleheads.org that having a mixture of taxable and non-taxable accounts are best for retirement. Specifically they were saying that it would be advantageous to take out taxable investments up to the 15% or so marginal tax rate and then take the rest of what you need out from your roth IRAs so that it doesn't increase your AGI.

# 1, I wasn't at an academic 501c. I never had access to a Roth 401K prior to my current job.

#2 You can get early access to both Roth IRAs and 401Ks. There's a few rules, but you can get at the funds if you're careful.

#3 The advantage of a Roth IRA over a Roth 401K is usually lower investment expenses and more choices.

#4 Tax diversification is a good idea as discussed at bogleheads.org.

#5 I have been in a very low tax bracket up until this last year-25% including federal and state. At least one year as an attending I was in the 15% bracket-it involved a deployment to the middle east. Knowing I would spend the rest of my career in the 30%+ bracket, I went for Roths over traditional IRAs.

#6 I cannot deduct traditional IRAs with my current income. But I can do backdoor Roths- and a backdoor Roth is far better than a taxable account or a non-deductible traditional IRA.

Good luck, hope that helps.
 
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