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An Interview with director of Admissions, Duke Medical School
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yep...it makes sense. It's not ALWAYS about perfect grades and MCATS. Obviously, try to do the best, especially if one faces adversity.
echoing alot of what is said on here...
How should students use medical school rankings when deciding on schools?
A: They shouldn't. It's unfortunate that so many people put too much emphasis on these rankings that are arbitrary. They really do not measure an institution for anything more than how many research dollars they bring in and some index of how "smart the schools are" and those indices are usually MCATs and average GPAs. We all know that there are huge fallacies in trusting that and nothing else. I'm saying that coming from Duke where Duke ends up in the top 6 of these rankings every year, but if people are coming to Duke because of this they will be sorely disappointed.
How should students use medical school rankings when deciding on schools?
A: They shouldn't. It's unfortunate that so many people put too much emphasis on these rankings that are arbitrary. They really do not measure an institution for anything more than how many research dollars they bring in and some index of how "smart the schools are" and those indices are usually MCATs and average GPAs. We all know that there are huge fallacies in trusting that and nothing else. I'm saying that coming from Duke where Duke ends up in the top 6 of these rankings every year, but if people are coming to Duke because of this they will be sorely disappointed.
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Not really comparable
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Meh, interview pretty much says what I have been saying on SDN since I got here. Glad they did it. Good to have them be upfront.
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Informative and consise; I like it!
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What is up with you always saying adversity. I swear half your posts are about it.
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Haha busted... It's a word that can be said in order to attempt to sound somewhat intelligent and altruistic at the same time
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Because that's what it is : )
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When deciding on attending or when deciding on applying to? Applying to a top school, like Duke, with a 3.6/30 is a waste of time and money.
Academic metrics are poor predictors of physician quality, but activities like ladling soup for hobos and pushing wheelchairs around for 2 hours a week are excellent predictors.
What a joke.
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The facade interviewees put on come interview time is clearly the best predictor.When deciding on attending or when deciding on applying to? Applying to a top school, like Duke, with a 3.6/30 is a waste of time and money.
Academic metrics are poor predictors of physician quality, but activities like ladling soup for hobos and pushing wheelchairs around for 2 hours a week are excellent predictors.
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When deciding on attending or when deciding on applying to? Applying to a top school, like Duke, with a 3.6/30 is a waste of time and money.
Academic metrics are poor predictors of physician quality, but activities like ladling soup for hobos and pushing wheelchairs around for 2 hours a week are excellent predictors.
Exactly how I feel.... I have no idea why DUKE values extra-curriculurs as much as grades and the MCAT.
And I like how she downplayed the role of research in admissions... isn't Duke supposed to be a bastion of research lol??
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A lot of cop-out answers it seemed like to me. It's hard to generalize such a diverse process, and there's no way you can say GPA and MCAT aren't important
I would have been more convinced if the director had said this, as it seems to be far more prevalent in the process. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the misconception is that the best schools want to train the best doctors. Somewhat true, but in my experience these schools have multiple missions and are also seeking to train the best researchers, administrators, policymakers, businessmen, etc. How else but through extracurriculars can an applicant demonstrate future potential in any of those fields?
Someone brought up soup kitchens earlier, I guess to mock the focus on extracurriculars over academic scores? Yeah, not really sure volunteering in the soup kitchen would garner you many points at Duke. But, in my opinion, above-average extracurricular achievement -- that means leadership, research productivity, intensive and passionate endeavours -- is much more impressive and compelling than the score you got on a test that you can basically teach yourself how to take.
Someone brought up soup kitchens earlier, I guess to mock the focus on extracurriculars over academic scores? Yeah, not really sure volunteering in the soup kitchen would garner you many points at Duke. But, in my opinion, above-average extracurricular achievement -- that means leadership, research productivity, intensive and passionate endeavours -- is much more impressive and compelling than the score you got on a test that you can basically teach yourself how to take.
Two things don't match. He says you shouldn't consider ranking but later he says going to a higher-ranked medical school makes it easier to match. Given this fact, why shouldn't students stress about going to higher-ranked medical schools?
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I think what he or she is trying to say is that matching does not solely depend on grades and MCAT. It hugely depends on the actual "match", will you be a good fit for the school. Also, a lot of the time, if you go for a MD/PhD, you may not get to know the faculty "one on one" because they will be visiting conferences, etc. So, while it is a top-tier, the QUALITY and EXPERIENCE may be overshadowed, whereas if you go to a school not based on its rankings but more of what you want out of an education, it will make the experience better. : )
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(S)he was not referring to finding a medical school that is a good "fit" or "match"; but, instead, (s)he was commenting on the residency match, or the process that one goes through when applying for and securing a residency position for when they graduate medical school. The impact of medical school prestige on this process is something that has been hotly debated on both the pre-allo and allo forums, so it is interesting to see an answer from someone who is involved in the process. To quote:
Which, when you consider how important the residency match is in one's career, makes it seem contradictory when (s)he claims that one should just ignore rankings. As, if one ends up wanting to go into a competitive specialty (integrated plastics, derm, rad onc, etc) or decides they want to go into academics and therefore needs to go to a residency program with great connections and research funding, then (s)he is admitting that going to a top school gives one a significant advantage.
Also, as an added note, an MD/PhD would get to know [some of] the faculty MORE than an MD-only student, as they will be working with them in their labs, seeking them out as career mentors and the like far more than a non-MD/PhD.
Anyways, thank you to the OP for posting this; it was a great read. The points on EC and life experience were particularly informative and encouraging.
Many threads about taking the pre-med required courses have been posted, and the general consensus has been that it doesn't matter if they are taken at one's home undergraduate institution or not. However the ADCOM strongly disagrees and says "it is very bad!!!". Anyone's thoughts about this controversy?
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After reading multiple threads on SDN as well as other forums, it seems that there is still no clear consensus about this issue. Some are strongly opposed to taking pre-med required courses away from the home university, while others would argue that it doesn't matter. In my opinion, doing this isn't always necessarily a bad thing; but you should be cautious. I don't think that having one or two pre-med summer courses at a different university instantly raises a red flag on your application, unless it obviously appears that you're intentionally avoiding taking the course during the year because it might be harder to get a good grade. By that, I mean, if you took O-Chem 1 (for example) and dropped it with a "W" and instead took it over the summer somewhere else, it might look like you're chickening out. Another example would be someone who has a relatively low BCPM GPA. In this case, taking pre-med courses away from the university might look like you're "cherry-picking" for easier classes to get A's in. Those types of situations might draw some suspicion, but still, it's not going to completely sink your application.
Also, there is a difference between taking the pre-med required course at a CC as opposed to a 4-year university that just happens to not be your home institution. I think the former is often frowned upon, while the latter is okay as long as you do it sparingly. I think if you're taking summer courses to accelerate your course plan, or just don't have anything more productive to do (like research, summer programs, job, etc.) for a particular summer, it's all right. I'm currently taking Calc-based Physics (actually much more intensive than the trig-based "pre-med" Physics offered at my school) at a state school this summer, partially because I didn't have anything better to do, but also because it would free up some space in my junior year schedule. With the two Physics courses out of the way, I would be able to take more upper-division science courses that I am really interested in, but would otherwise not have time to take. I could have taken the Physics at my home university over the summer, but doing it at this particular state school was so much more convenient (closer to home), not to mention MUCH cheaper (which is probably the deal-breaker for me).
Hopefully we can find more interviews or articles from other Adcoms regarding this issue for a second opinion. I've also read a few pre-med advising FAQs from various universities, and they all seem to agree that taking summer courses elsewhere is permitted and won't harm your application as long as you don't do it too often. I'm taking the responses in this interview with a grain of salt (partially because some of the answers weren't that in-depth IMO). Personally, I don't think this should be too much of a problem, as long as it's done reasonably. And by reasonable, you should be able to determine this yourself. If you're scheming in the back of your mind to get a better grade by taking it at an "easier" school, then it's probably not a good idea to take it because it'll show. Be honest to yourself, and you'll be fine. Don't worry about it too much. I also don't think that they'll scrutinize over every single course you've taken and where you've taken it, and repeat for each and every other applicant. At least not until they've narrowed down the field quite a bit. But by then, you'll probably be able to explain yourself at an interview if it ever comes up. Admissions officers can't (and don't) really judge you on each of your classes, because the difficulty level can vary greatly among every university. The only proof that you've properly learned the material is your MCAT score. So if you do well and ace that part on the MCAT, that should dispel any doubts.
