Anesthesia vs IM

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My thought process is there is a large pool of IMG in IM, and the ones that match are probably studs. Also if we use the %US grad metric, then palliative care would be about the same competitiveness as cards which doesn't seem right. But yes I imagine if you are IMG you have to be that much better than the US grads to match
And in the IM world there is a big difference, when it comes to applying for fellowships and and actually matching into one, between the success rate of those that did university-based residencies and those in community-based programs.

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As a current MS3 I will admit it is quite disheartening to hear attendings warn students not to enter their specialty. At the same time, I appreciate all the honest feedback as it leads me to a more informed decision. I understand the concern with CRNA's and I recognize that in the future physicians will likely be employees. However, throughout my rotations I have noticed these trends throughout all of the specialties. The vast majority of my class actually would prefer to be an employee, although I would prefer to be in private practice.

Like the earlier poster, I am looking to choose between IM and Anesthesiology. Part of me feels like I am choosing between a career where I would love my work, but have a worse employment outlook (Anesthesiology) versus a field where I can tolerate the work, but have better job prospects (IM subspecialty).

I would appreciate any more thoughts on Anesthesia vs IM and the future of having a fulfilling career in Anesthesiology.

For what it's worth, anesthesiologists practicing ~5-15 that I've encountered in real life have said that they're experience has been much more positive than SDN describes. And these were physicians working at a 1:4 ACT environment.
 
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For what it's worth, anesthesiologists practicing ~5-15 that I've encountered in real life have said that they're experience has been much more positive than SDN describes. And these were physicians working at a 1:4 ACT environment.
I've had the same experience with anesthesiologists saying how happy they are in real life. I've also had lots of other doctors in all different specialties tell me the same (like even busy general surgeons and interventional cardiologists say they are happy). Maybe it's just me, but my experience in real life is most doctors in most specialties I ask are usually pretty positive about their specialty. But I still come here to sdn because I want to hear all the s***talk lol.
 
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In anesthesia, we often take for total granted the routine aspects of our field. The routine use of apneic inducing sedative/hypnotics, dissociative anesthetics, powerful narcotics, and paralytics that we push ourselves etc. is just part of the day to day routine. But, taking a step back, it's a really cool thing. Routine? For sure. But, still very cool.

We also take for granted the experience needed to administer these medications. The "feel" for both the patient and the drug. But, that experience and familiarity with some crazy potent and dangerous (in the wrong hands) medications is of huge value. Most of us forget this and just totally take it for granted.
 
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Thank you everyone for the replies! This is very informative.

As a FMG, maybe. As an AMG, with a good chance for a fellowship, definitely.

Could you please comment on which specialties in IM you feel are worth choosing over anesthesia? Is it solely Cards/GI?
 
Could you please comment on which specialties in IM you feel are worth choosing over anesthesia? Is it solely Cards/GI?
I didn't do an IM residency, so I am not the best to ask about IM subspecialties.

I think anything that's not hospital-based, where one "owns" patients and has a decent lifestyle (and pay) should be included. So I wouldn't include Cards or ID (and probably others). I personally would avoid subspecialties with a significant midlevel presence/threat, too. Also those with jobs that require practicing general IM on the side (i.e. not enough business - same way many pain jobs require practicing anesthesia, too).
 
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Two words: No rounding.
I don't even know if that was mentioned before. God I hate rounding.
I guess it depends on the rounds. Some rounds are horrible, last forever, learn squat, all that.

But I don't think rounding is always as bad as some people here make it out to be, not if you have a good attending that teaches well. For those kinds of rounds, I have learned a lot and felt very involved in patient care even as a dumb and ignorant med student. The whole thing was really intellectual and academic in the best sense. It was like learning from those older and more traditional physicians that everyone completely respects and being able to receive all their decades of accumulated wisdom. I felt like a young apprentice learning from a master in the guild and someday aspiring to become like this mentor. Maybe I am "romanticizing" medicine too much, but since we always hear all the negative things, it's encouraging to point out there are sometimes some good things about medicine today in my opinion.
 
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First of all, I apologize for bringing up an older thread, but I am currently trying to make this decision and could really use some insight. I have a few questions and would greatly appreciate your thoughts.

1) For physician's practicing in the ACT model, how does one gain a sense of satisfaction from their career if they are not personally performing each case themselves?

2) Does a lower tier university or a community anesthesiology program provide a strong foundation for one's career? Would fellowship opportunities be limited? I ask because I would prefer to be in a certain geographic region and would possibly choose a lower ranked program to achieve this.

3) Does anesthesiology provide more opportunity for one to pursue activities outside of work? This may be anecdotal, but out of the physicians I have worked with, the anesthesiologists tended to have hobbies (scuba diving, skiing, hiking etc.) that I enjoy.

4) As one ages, how practical is it to continue working in anesthesiology? How does one cope with the overnight call? I have seen that many IM docs are able to cut back hours, but otherwise work as long as they would like as the career is less physically demanding.

5) Does anesthesiology allow one to move geographic areas fairly easily? I imagine this is more difficult in IM as one would develop a patient base in private practice. However, this may become easier if the trend of being an employed physician continues.

6) If you were to have gone into IM, which specialty would you have chosen and why?

I have been following the sdn anesthesia forum for some time and appreciate the various perspectives on the forum. Thanks!
 
1) For physician's practicing in the ACT model, how does one gain a sense of satisfaction from their career if they are not personally performing each case themselves?

Let me ask a related question back: how does an internist get a sense of satisfaction from their career when they might not personally do anything for a patient? I mean they examine them and prescribe medicines and treatments, but they don't actually perform those treatments (they aren't dispensing the metoprolol to the patient or checking the glucose, merely prescribing them).

Also FWIW I do all sorts of things in an ACT model. I do more central lines, art lines, epidurals, spinals, and difficult intubations that anesthesiologists that do their own cases. Why? Because I have more patients to take care of than they do.
 
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Let me ask a related question back: how does an internist get a sense of satisfaction from their career when they might not personally do anything for a patient? I mean they examine them and prescribe medicines and treatments, but they don't actually perform those treatments (they aren't dispensing the metoprolol to the patient or checking the glucose, merely prescribing them).

Also FWIW I do all sorts of things in an ACT model. I do more central lines, art lines, epidurals, spinals, and difficult intubations that anesthesiologists that do their own cases. Why? Because I have more patients to take care of than they do.
“Personally doing anything for a patient” doesn’t equate to just sticking needles and other things in people. That is your bias.

Developing relationships with patients, advising them on their health, prescribing meds for their conditions, diagnosing a new condition, sending them to the right specialist, watching their health improve, all that counts for a hell of a lot. I mean you hear about patients loving their PCPs and recommending them to their friends and families. This happens for a reason you know.

How many frequent fliers in the OR are asking for us on a regular basis? How many send their friends to us specifically and refuse to have a procedure unless a specific doc takes care of them? Hell, plenty don’t even know the difference between us and the midlevels.
 
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“Personally doing anything for a patient” doesn’t equate to just sticking needles and other things in people. That is your bias.

Developing relationships with patients, advising them on their health, prescribing meds for their conditions, diagnosing a new condition, sending them to the right specialist, watching their health improve, all that counts for a hell of a lot. I mean you hear about patients loving their PCPs and recommending them to their friends and families. This happens for a reason you know.

How many frequent fliers in the OR are asking for us on a regular basis? How many send their friends to us specifically and refuse to have a procedure unless a specific doc takes care of them? Hell, plenty don’t even know the difference between us and the midlevels.


You are missing the post I replied to. I was asking if an anesthesiologist can't get job satisfaction in an ACT model, how can an internist? I supervise AAs and CRNAs all the time and I doubt I could get more satisfaction than I currently have.
 
You are missing the post I replied to. I was asking if an anesthesiologist can't get job satisfaction in an ACT model, how can an internist? I supervise AAs and CRNAs all the time and I doubt I could get more satisfaction than I currently have.


From some of your previous posts, we know you are highly.....um....$atisfied. I would be satisfied too;)
 
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1) For physician's practicing in the ACT model, how does one gain a sense of satisfaction from their career if they are not personally performing each case themselves?

As other posters have said, it depends how you derive your satisfactions from your job. And I hate to say it, at end of the day it is just a job. There are going to be parts you absolutely love and there are some parts you would not care for. Are you okay with a patient not giving you any credit for taking care of them? Will you feel a little “weird” when your very difficult anesthesia patient who walks by and does not recognize you? You will not be their IM, you will not be their surgeon.

2) Does a lower tier university or a community anesthesiology program provide a strong foundation for one's career? Would fellowship opportunities be limited? I ask because I would prefer to be in a certain geographic region and would possibly choose a lower ranked program to achieve this.

I personally believe in anesthesia is a very “doer” field. More cases you do, more competent you become. Some community programs may not see enough certain type of cases. You may not gravitate towards certain types of jobs. Let’s say I’ve only seen 3 kidney transplants, will I want to go to a place that does 3 every day?
From what I know about fellowships? Most people who want one, will get one. Not to say there is no self selections, for people who wants to go into pain or cardiac. But most people will get whatever they want for fellowships.

3) Does anesthesiology provide more opportunity for one to pursue activities outside of work? This may be anecdotal, but out of the physicians I have worked with, the anesthesiologists tended to have hobbies (scuba diving, skiing, hiking etc.) that I enjoy.

This depends on how you define your IM practice. If you’re just a hospitalist, then you can have a fixed schedule vs If you’re doing IM with your own shop, and you see 20-60 patients a day and still do your own inpatients. But if you do well, you can probably achieve financial independence sooner.
But you may touched upon something that you may not have considered before. Every field has its personality. IM, (generalist) may enjoy patient interactions more than anesthesiologists. They may enjoy ? reading a long novel more. Because they enjoy a long relationship with the book. Anesthesiologists are more into satisfaction of finishing an activity, a day of skiing?, more.

I know, somewhat vague and stereotyping.

4) As one ages, how practical is it to continue working in anesthesiology? How does one cope with the overnight call? I have seen that many IM docs are able to cut back hours, but otherwise work as long as they would like as the career is less physically demanding.

Depends on your practice. Some physicians at certain age just don’t take calls. You can buy yourself out or just don’t make as much. Or you build an anesthesia practice and you become the super senior partner the overlord, and have your minions take calls. Wahahahaha. <I am the minion, not the overlords>

5) Does anesthesiology allow one to move geographic areas fairly easily? I imagine this is more difficult in IM as one would develop a patient base in private practice. However, this may become easier if the trend of being an employed physician continues.

You don’t have a patient base as anesthesiologists. Neither will you if you do hospitalist work.

6) If you were to have gone into IM, which specialty would you have chosen and why?

Interventional Cardiac/GI - most procedural based. Compensation.
Vs
Pulm/CCM - procedures and intellectually stimulating. I do enjoy “some” family/patient interactions. Counseling on end of life matters, oddly, fascinate me a lot.

Good luck.
 
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Let me ask a related question back: how does an internist get a sense of satisfaction from their career when they might not personally do anything for a patient? I mean they examine them and prescribe medicines and treatments, but they don't actually perform those treatments (they aren't dispensing the metoprolol to the patient or checking the glucose, merely prescribing them).

Also FWIW I do all sorts of things in an ACT model. I do more central lines, art lines, epidurals, spinals, and difficult intubations that anesthesiologists that do their own cases. Why? Because I have more patients to take care of than they do.

Key is being in a practice where if the CRNAs are ok with you taking their procedures...
 
From some of your previous posts, we know you are highly.....um....$atisfied. I would be satisfied too;)

I'd do my job for less money than it would take to get me to do my own cases. I have far more fun than on the days I do my own. Now at some point as I get older I might appreciate the slower pace of just doing 1 room at a time, but for now it makes the day fly by.
 
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Key is being in a practice where if the CRNAs are ok with you taking their procedures...

“Their” procedures. LOL! Employ your nurses, ultimate way to keep them in line.

For real, though. Eliminate this line of thinking - if you believe that, they have already won. The buck stops with YOU - the physician. You’re in charge and direct care in a physician-led care team.
 
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Key is being in a practice where if the CRNAs are ok with you taking their procedures...

since I'm in charge of the anesthetic, they are all my procedures unless I delegate them to someone else.
 
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You are missing the post I replied to. I was asking if an anesthesiologist can't get job satisfaction in an ACT model, how can an internist? I supervise AAs and CRNAs all the time and I doubt I could get more satisfaction than I currently have.
That’s exactly what I was responding to.
 
That’s exactly what I was responding to.

and yet you said my bias was that sticking needles into patients was the only thing that counted. I never implied that. The post I replied to did. That's why I wondered if they didn't think a doc in an ACT model could get satisfaction, how could an internist? I then anecdotally noted that even in an ACT model you can physically do lots of things for the patient if that's what you need to feel good about yourself.
 
I'd do my job for less money than it would take to get me to do my own cases. I have far more fun than on the days I do my own. Now at some point as I get older I might appreciate the slower pace of just doing 1 room at a time, but for now it makes the day fly by.

I am not sure I believe that. Would you really do a 1:4 supervision job for what the average internist makes? From the beginning of your career and not after you’ve built up a large FU account? I don’t think you can make that statement accurately. Internists are underpaid for the workload and hours they put in, which is a major source of dissatisfaction.
 
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Since this was ressurected from 2014 I'm really curious to see what the med student (back then) that went into anesthesia thinks now since he should be finishing residency now. Seemed pretty sure of himself then. I wonder if that has persisted. I honestly wish for a yes... I really like the idea of anesthesia.

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I am not sure I believe that. Would you really do a 1:4 supervision job for what the average internist makes? From the beginning of your career and not after you’ve built up a large FU account? I don’t think you can make that statement accurately. Internists are underpaid for the workload and hours they put in, which is a major source of dissatisfaction.

I was comparing my salary in an ACT model to what my salary would be in a physician only model, not what an internist makes. I don't know what a PP internist makes.
 
Since this was ressurected from 2014 I'm really curious to see what the med student (back then) that went into anesthesia thinks now since he should be finishing residency now. Seemed pretty sure of himself then. I wonder if that has persisted. I honestly wish for a yes... I really like the idea of anesthesia.

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<from stalking > if everything on track Ca-2 this year. But also commented on heme/onc salary this year. So maybe still not sure? Would be tough to go through ca1 year and still looking at heme/onc.

But probably won’t be the first one ever to do something crazy like that.
 
<from stalking > if everything on track Ca-2 this year. But also commented on heme/onc salary this year. So maybe still not sure? Would be tough to go through ca1 year and still looking at heme/onc.

But probably won’t be the first one ever to do something crazy like that.
That's odd, and definitely doesn't bode well for his initial position on anesthesia.

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I've had the same experience with anesthesiologists saying how happy they are in real life. I've also had lots of other doctors in all different specialties tell me the same (like even busy general surgeons and interventional cardiologists say they are happy). Maybe it's just me, but my experience in real life is most doctors in most specialties I ask are usually pretty positive about their specialty. But I still come here to sdn because I want to hear all the s***talk lol.
WE WILL ALL LIE TO YOU IN REAL LIFE!

Who would be so stupid to tell some baby the TRUTH about one's job? It's about as reliable as the answer to "how are you?". "Great!" Yeah, sure, this must be the country with the happiest people on Earth.

It's like all the positive reviews on Amazon; read the critical ones, you'll find out more.
 
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I am not sure I believe that. Would you really do a 1:4 supervision job for what the average internist makes? From the beginning of your career and not after you’ve built up a large FU account? I don’t think you can make that statement accurately. Internists are underpaid for the workload and hours they put in, which is a major source of dissatisfaction.
One of the main reasons I don't switch to 100% critical care. I'd rather do solo ASC work for that money.
 
I'd do my job for less money than it would take to get me to do my own cases. I have far more fun than on the days I do my own. Now at some point as I get older I might appreciate the slower pace of just doing 1 room at a time, but for now it makes the day fly by.
I'm sorry, but the main reason an anesthesiologist would enjoy more supervising than working solo is being LAZY.
 
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You are missing the post I replied to. I was asking if an anesthesiologist can't get job satisfaction in an ACT model, how can an internist? I supervise AAs and CRNAs all the time and I doubt I could get more satisfaction than I currently have.
You're kidding, right? You cannot begin to compare the patient-doctor mini-relationship you have with a real, long-term, one.
 
I'm sorry, but the main reason an anesthesiologist would enjoy more supervising than working solo is being LAZY.

Huh? Days I do my own cases I feel lazier than ever. I do far less work on those days. I think less and do less with my hands. Our group considers it a nice easy assignment to just do your own cases for a day. If someone is medically directing multiple rooms and feels like their day is physically or mentally easier than doing their own cases, they aren't doing the job correctly.

Doing your own room is easy by the end of residency. It only gets easier when you've done the job for years afterwards.
 
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Huh? Days I do my own cases I feel lazier than ever. I do far less work on those days. I think less and do less with my hands. Our group considers it a nice easy assignment to just do your own cases for a day. If someone is medically directing multiple rooms and feels like their day is physically or mentally easier than doing their own cases, they aren't doing the job correctly.

Doing your own room is easy by the end of residency. It only gets easier when you've done the job for years afterwards.

I mean, it really depends on the cases, right? Doing a solo sick aortobifem or sagging, hypoxic thoracotomy are definitely more tiring for me than supervising three of our stronger CRNAs in general Asa 1/2 B&B pts that don't require blocks, epidurals, lines etc.

I'd rank relative difficulty greatest to least: ACT multiple simultaneous sick cases, solo sick case, ACT B&B, solo B&B.
 
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I mean, it really depends on the cases, right? Doing a solo sick aortobifem or sagging, hypoxic thoracotomy are definitely more tiring for me than supervising three of our stronger CRNAs in general Asa 1/2 B&B pts that don't require blocks, epidurals, lines etc.

I'd rank relative difficulty greatest to least: ACT multiple simultaneous sick cases, solo sick case, ACT B&B, solo B&B.

The answer for all of it is it depends on the cases. Doing a sick aortobifem while you have another room or two is not exactly easy. As a rule of thumb, though, doing one case by yourself is easier than doing that same case while directing other rooms whether they are sick or healthy (as your personal hierarchy agrees).
 
Huh? Days I do my own cases I feel lazier than ever. I do far less work on those days. I think less and do less with my hands. Our group considers it a nice easy assignment to just do your own cases for a day. If someone is medically directing multiple rooms and feels like their day is physically or mentally easier than doing their own cases, they aren't doing the job correctly.

Doing your own room is easy by the end of residency. It only gets easier when you've done the job for years afterwards.

So you’re telling us you would gladly take a pay cut to work harder??

o_O
 
Huh? Days I do my own cases I feel lazier than ever. I do far less work on those days. I think less and do less with my hands. Our group considers it a nice easy assignment to just do your own cases for a day. If someone is medically directing multiple rooms and feels like their day is physically or mentally easier than doing their own cases, they aren't doing the job correctly.

Doing your own room is easy by the end of residency. It only gets easier when you've done the job for years afterwards.

See, your post perfectly encapsulates the biggest issue I have with medical direction. You are saying that doing your own cases is easy and supervising is challenging. Yet, anesthesiology doesn't change from case to case. Don't you see a problem with that? You shouldn't be exhausted and find the actual medicine any more challenging. And if the medicine isn't the thing that is challenging between the two, it essentially means the things that you find "challenging" are figuring out how to time your nurses' breaks, how to put out a fire that was completely preventable had you been in the room, how to preop a medically complex case in three minutes for one of your rooms before your nurse extubates a challenging airway by herself in another room, etc.

The biggest issue I have with medical direction, aside from the politics and money associated with it, is that I find it unethical knowing that I could do a better job by myself, yet I am allowing others to practice on innocent patients that don't know any better.
 
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So you’re telling us you would gladly take a pay cut to work harder??

o_O

No, what I'm saying is I love my job and would take a pay cut to continue doing it. I am medically directing the overwhelming majority of the time. At this point in life, I prefer that to sitting on my butt doing 1 case at a time.
 
See, your post perfectly encapsulates the biggest issue I have with medical direction. You are saying that doing your own cases is easy and supervising is challenging. Yet, anesthesiology doesn't change from case to case. Don't you see a problem with that? You shouldn't be exhausted and find the actual medicine any more challenging. And if the medicine isn't the thing that is challenging between the two, it essentially means the things that you find "challenging" are figuring out how to times your nurses' breaks, how to put out a fire that was completely preventable had you been in the room, how to preop a medically complex case in three minutes for one of your rooms before your nurse extubates a challenging airway by herself in another room, etc.

The biggest issue I have with medical direction, aside from the politics and money associated with it, is that I find it unethical knowing that I could do a better job by myself, yet I am allowing others to practice on innocent patients that don't know any better.

but your post is illogical. I'm not saying the anesthetic is more challenging under medical direction, I'm saying I have to work harder because I'm multi tasking. Each individual case is not more difficult, it's just that I am doing more things at once. Does that make sense? I'm physically and mentally doing more work. That doesn't mean that the care of any one case is more challenging, just that I am accomplishing more in my day.

You may find it unethical to think you could do a better job yourself, but thankfully there is plenty of outcome level data to suggest that isn't true. Find me your measurable outcome that is improved in physician only care compared to ACT model. And considering the overwhelming majority of level 1 trauma centers and major academic medical centers in the country are using the ACT model, it's hard to argue that ACT model isn't taking care of plenty of horribly sick individuals having major surgeries.
 
but your post is illogical. I'm not saying the anesthetic is more challenging under medical direction, I'm saying I have to work harder because I'm multi tasking. Each individual case is not more difficult, it's just that I am doing more things at once. Does that make sense? I'm physically and mentally doing more work. That doesn't mean that the care of any one case is more challenging, just that I am accomplishing more in my day.

You may find it unethical to think you could do a better job yourself, but thankfully there is plenty of outcome level data to suggest that isn't true. Find me your measurable outcome that is improved in physician only care compared to ACT model. And considering the overwhelming majority of level 1 trauma centers and major academic medical centers in the country are using the ACT model, it's hard to argue that ACT model isn't taking care of plenty of horribly sick individuals having major surgeries.

The outcome studies are irrelevant IMO because they will never in a million years capture the true 'near-miss' data that occurs in ACT. For instance, say you have a pt with severe asthma. If I'm sitting the case, I aggressively treat with albuterol, run the pt deep, give propofol, glyco, mag, lido etc as needed, and pull the tube deep. Pt does fine. Hypothetical lazy CRNA on the other hand doesnt adequately use B2 ags or other adjuncts, runs pt relatively light because they cant be bothered to give pressors, pt spasms hard intraop. I'm there to medically direct the bronchospasm therapy, get the pt to a good place, and again, the pt does fine.

Yes, the outcome was similar, but the road to each outcome was quite different. You might argue that the ACT MD in my hypothetical case wasnt doing his job properly with frequent monitoring, but you and I both know that this happens all the time during a busy 1:4 day where each room cant be micromanaged. At the end of the day, studies showing ACT/MD equivalency miss the fact that the ACT MD was working twice as hard to avert disaster and ensure the same good outcome as the solo MD.
 
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but your post is illogical. I'm not saying the anesthetic is more challenging under medical direction, I'm saying I have to work harder because I'm multi tasking. Each individual case is not more difficult, it's just that I am doing more things at once. Does that make sense? I'm physically and mentally doing more work. That doesn't mean that the care of any one case is more challenging, just that I am accomplishing more in my day.

You may find it unethical to think you could do a better job yourself, but thankfully there is plenty of outcome level data to suggest that isn't true. Find me your measurable outcome that is improved in physician only care compared to ACT model. And considering the overwhelming majority of level 1 trauma centers and major academic medical centers in the country are using the ACT model, it's hard to argue that ACT model isn't taking care of plenty of horribly sick individuals having major surgeries.

Don’t the CRNAs say the same thing about outcomes when pushing for independent practice?
 
Don’t the CRNAs say the same thing about outcomes when pushing for independent practice?

they might say the same thing, but they don't have any real hospitals to show data that it works. ACT model can trot out every famous hospital you can think of. The closest they come to trying to fabricate data is pulling out QZ modifier cases and arguing there was no anesthesiologist involvement whatsoever when in fact those cases may have had all kinds of anesthesiologist involvement they just got sloppy on the documentation and didn't want to commit billing fraud so attached QZ modifier to it.
 
You might argue that the ACT MD in my hypothetical case wasnt doing his job properly with frequent monitoring, but you and I both know that this happens all the time during a busy 1:4 day where each room cant be micromanaged. At the end of the day, studies showing ACT/MD equivalency miss the fact that the ACT MD was working twice as hard to avert disaster and ensure the same good outcome as the solo MD.

You are correct in that I would say that they weren't doing their job and I'd also point out that who cares how hard they were working? Nobody said it was easy.
 
You are correct in that I would say that they weren't doing their job and I'd also point out that who cares how hard they were working? Nobody said it was easy.

The point isn't about the difficulty. The point is that the MD in an ACT model is already starting behind the 8-ball to provide care that is as good as solo MD (the type of anesthesia care I would want for myself or a family member). In my mind, the solo MD is usually putting birdies. The CRNA usually shoots bogeys. If they're lucky enough, the CRNA has a supervising MD (who hopefully has enough time in between running to 4 different rooms, lines, blocks etc) to bring them to par.

It is laughable that you can talk about ACT/solo MD equivalence studies and not ask yourself why the ACT model hasn't easily shown superiority considering two minds and sets of hands are available to every patient.
 
IM is versatile - easily the most versatile field in the business. You can do outpatient, inpatient, intense, chill, procedural, non-procedural. You can be on the forefront of research if you wanted, or you can run your own business and answer to no one. I'm going into allergy/immunology (derm of IM) so I'm choosing the latter, but that's just one of many many options.
And don't let the 3 years of medicine residency deter you too much. I agree that it does suck having to go through months and months of gen med when you know you won't be doing it for a career, but PGY3 is a breeze at most programs. Residents at most non-malignant programs only have to do 3-4 inpatient months as a third year and they can easily make 50-75k from moonlighting alone. One of the current heme onc fellows who was a PGY3 last year made almost 100k moonlighting (not including resident salary), which he did without coming close to breaking hours.
IM is also the most versatile for jobs outside of clinical medicine. If you ever get sick of practicing or want a change of pace, with a IM, EM or FP background - there are tons of non-clinical jobs dying for people with that experience.
 
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I work in ACT, just like Mman I have a ton of job satisfaction. We shouldn’t attack a colleague for working within what is out there- I do 1:3 and the buck stops with me.

I can probably say on behalf of my 40 other physician anesthesiologists in my practice - we are all quite happy and have a lot of work satisfaction. Not every ACT practice is an AMC mess.

Does money pay a role there? You bet, but so does the work itself. You couldn’t pay me all the tea in China to be a chronic pain doc (God bless y’all) or in ER.
 
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It is laughable that you can talk about ACT/solo MD equivalence studies and not ask yourself why the ACT model hasn't easily shown superiority considering two minds and sets of hands are available to every patient.

It actually did show superiority in the best study done to date from North Carolina CMS data in the 1970s and 1980s. Lowest mortality rate of physician only, CRNA only, or ACT model was the ACT model. I'm too lazy to dig up the link for you.

If one doc in a room doing his own thing is "shooting birdies" in your mind, how come none of the biggest and best hospitals in the country are doing it that way? I mean it seems absurd that MGH or Stanford or Hopkins or wherever else you want to name doesn't have a board certified anesthesiologist in the room for the duration of every case if it were so much better for the patient.

It just isn't. While you wish it true, that doesn't make it true. The ASA fully supports the ACT model and it's safety and efficacy is proven beyond doubt.
 
Spoken like somebody who makes a lot of money out of it.

Like I said, I'd do it for less because I love my job. There isn't enough money in the world to make all the time away from home on nights, weekends, and holidays worth it if I didn't love it. But I'm not sure why money has anything to do with it because we couldn't provide physician only anesthesia care across this country even if we wanted to. It would take 50+ years to train that many anesthesiologists, maybe 100+. But it's still nice to know it's proven safe and effective.
 
And MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!! We know MMan!!!

I actually don't make that much additional money from ACT work. An increasingly large percentage of the income I (we) generate is from pain medicine, consulting, HR/billing, real estate, etc. If you took all our hospitals and flipped them to physician only care tomorrow, it'd probably drop my gross income maybe 10-15% for the year.

I argue in favor of ACT care because it is a great model. I appreciate that there also are jobs out there for those too lazy to handle it or that just prefer to not have the hassle. Different strokes for different folks and what not.
 
It actually did show superiority in the best study done to date from North Carolina CMS data in the 1970s and 1980s. Lowest mortality rate of physician only, CRNA only, or ACT model was the ACT model. I'm too lazy to dig up the link for you.

If one doc in a room doing his own thing is "shooting birdies" in your mind, how come none of the biggest and best hospitals in the country are doing it that way? I mean it seems absurd that MGH or Stanford or Hopkins or wherever else you want to name doesn't have a board certified anesthesiologist in the room for the duration of every case if it were so much better for the patient.

It just isn't. While you wish it true, that doesn't make it true. The ASA fully supports the ACT model and it's safety and efficacy is proven beyond doubt.

The best evidence to date is from one US state studying anesthesia practice in the 70's and 80's??? L O f'ing L. I tried googling some combination of ACT CRNA MD anesthesia north carolina cms study. Didn't see anything. If you find the link, please share it so we can look at the methodology of how "safe anesthesia" differed between providers in the time before pulse ox and capnography. I'm sure it'll be super relevant to the CRNA debate in 2018.

The ivory tower are slaves to the bean counters just like everyone else, not to mention they have their fair share of docs who'd rather sit in their office and watch the case on their computer rather than participate. Solo MD doesn't financially benefit the department, ergo it's not done. Doesn't matter if it's better for the pt or not because it all comes down to $$$. If the incentive structure ever changes in benefit of solo MD, how do you think MGH, Stanford etc will function? Hell, when I was a resident I was at a place that was relatively flush as far as money goes compared to most academic depts due to our payer mix, but the chair still hired some throughput-efficiency-MBA numbskull who thought sevo/des were too expensive and that residents were a drain on the department. She had such little self-awareness that she flat out said during one of the resident lectures about healthcare economics that she'd rather fewer residents because 1:4 with CRNAs is that much more profitable. As long as you have these ppl whispering in administrators' and chairmens' ears, the MGH, stanford argument doesn't hold any water.
 
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