"Animal" or "Vet" Experience

[aspiringDVM]

I spent a summer as an intern at an equine rehab center. The facility did not have a vet on staff (though there were several employees who were vets in their own countries but not licensed to practice in the US). However, usually 2-5 different vets would come out each day to check on and treat their patients.
We (the interns) checked the horses over each morning, bandaged, administered medications (as directed by the vet, of course), groomed, helped out with various forms of therapy, and got to handle horses for and ask questions of the different attending veterinarians.
The experience was definitely very medically intensive, but I'm not sure it could count as "veterinary" experience because we weren't always working under the direct supervision of a veterinarian. Any thoughts?

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[IcyPatch]

I spent a summer as an intern at an equine rehab center. The facility did not have a vet on staff (though there were several employees who were vets in their own countries but not licensed to practice in the US). However, usually 2-5 different vets would come out each day to check on and treat their patients.
We (the interns) checked the horses over each morning, bandaged, administered medications (as directed by the vet, of course), groomed, helped out with various forms of therapy, and got to handle horses for and ask questions of the different attending veterinarians.
The experience was definitely very medically intensive, but I'm not sure it could count as "veterinary" experience because we weren't always working under the direct supervision of a veterinarian. Any thoughts?

I work in a small animal practice. We come in in the morning and treat the animals before the vet comes in (as directed by the vet) and through out the day if it needs tests such as a glucose curve. A doctor will be seeing patients will come back and let us know that Fluffy in room two needs this or that. All while patients come in to have stitches removed or various other treatments, that the doctor is not present for, but had ordered at a previous date.

Sound similar?

I believe if you work with a practicing Veterinarian, in some capacity, then I would count it as "veterinary" experience.

 

[Electrophile]

I'd probably try to give my best estimate of the percentage of time you were spending doing medical stuff (especially with a vet) versus husbandry stuff. So if you were doing like 1000 hours total of experience in that setting and you were doing 70% with medical stuff under the direct supervision (or indirect, if it was changing bandages, that sort of thing) of a vet and 30% husbandry like grooming, feeding, etc, I'd put down 700 hours for vet experience, 300 for animal experience.

 

[Pomona2006]

Although it sounds like veterinary experience, keep in mind that on VMCAS, the way they have us fill in information is such that you have to fill in the "Name of Veterinarian / Scientist" as well as the clinic or hospital name, etc. So if you feel like you can adequately fill out that information and not be stretching it too far, then go for it! I personally had an experience similar to yours (mine was at a zoo) and I chose to put it under animal experience because I felt more comfortable with that since the supervising DVM was not someone I had much contact with even though I was administering treatment/medication to the animals.

 

[aspiringDVM]

I work in a small animal practice. We come in in the morning and treat the animals before the vet comes in (as directed by the vet) and through out the day if it needs tests such as a glucose curve. A doctor will be seeing patients will come back and let us know that Fluffy in room two needs this or that. All while patients come in to have stitches removed or various other treatments, that the doctor is not present for, but had ordered at a previous date.

Sound similar?

I believe if you work with a practicing Veterinarian, in some capacity, then I would count it as "veterinary" experience.

Yes, it does sound somewhat similar!

Although it sounds like veterinary experience, keep in mind that on VMCAS, the way they have us fill in information is such that you have to fill in the "Name of Veterinarian / Scientist" as well as the clinic or hospital name, etc. So if you feel like you can adequately fill out that information and not be stretching it too far, then go for it! I personally had an experience similar to yours (mine was at a zoo) and I chose to put it under animal experience because I felt more comfortable with that since the supervising DVM was not someone I had much contact with even though I was administering treatment/medication to the animals.

Mmmm, I didn't know that the VMCAS was specific to supervising vet/ scientist. That could be tricky. Any idea if foreign vets count? Do you get any room to summarize your experiences? I'm not completely averse to listing it as animal experience (actually , I recently realized that the bulk of my experience since entering college has been almost exclusively veterinary, so this could be a good thing), but I'd like to make it clear that it wasn't a run-of-the-mill working in a barn type of thing.

I'd probably try to give my best estimate of the percentage of time you were spending doing medical stuff (especially with a vet) versus husbandry stuff. So if you were doing like 1000 hours total of experience in that setting and you were doing 70% with medical stuff under the direct supervision (or indirect, if it was changing bandages, that sort of thing) of a vet and 30% husbandry like grooming, feeding, etc, I'd put down 700 hours for vet experience, 300 for animal experience.

I really like this idea! It seems like it would be the most representative of the experience. I think the trick will be working out the "supervising vet" thing, as Pomona mentioned.

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

[Pomona2006]

Yes, VMCAS does allow you to describe your responsibilities/duties for each of your experiences - so you can elaborate on what you did.

As for listing foreign vets - I have experience working with foreign vets but in foreign countries, where they earned their degree and are essentially licensed to practice. I am not sure if it would be the same thing having them supervise me in the US as they would not legally be able to practice here. Tricky situation. I wish I knew how to help you on that one, but the VMCAS hotline might be able to help when it is back up and running.

 

[Malhi]

Foreign vets are fine. Some schools actually encourage international exposure! However, I think it is probably best if you have some vet experience on the US too, just to be safe.

 

[AstroFish]

I have a related question. I work full time as a receptionist in a veterinary hospital with four doctors. I train part time as a technician, but would prefer to train full time for the experience. What are your thoughts on pursuing a different hospital where I could get more direct training versus staying at a place I already know and at least getting the exposure?

Thanks.

 

[TurtleLover]

I have a related question. I work full time as a receptionist in a veterinary hospital with four doctors. I train part time as a technician, but would prefer to train full time for the experience. What are your thoughts on pursuing a different hospital where I could get more direct training versus staying at a place I already know and at least getting the exposure?

Thanks.

From my personal experience, I would stay at the hospital you are at now and work your way to tech. It's the best way to go because they already know you and are somewhat willing to train you for a tech (I'm guessing your not a CVT). Changing to a different hospital, they may not want to train someone and you'll have to start in kennel (the bottom) and work your way up. Sounds like you're already on your way there, and with the economy the way it is now, I would stay with a job I already have. I've been applying EVERYWHERE for a tech job with 9 months of kennel experience plus thousands of hours of other animal/research experiences and they won't hire me because I'm not an experienced technician. So frustrating

 

[aspiringDVM]

AstroFish, if I were you I would talk to the vets you work for/ your supervisor before you decide to leave. If you explain that you enjoy working there (which I hope you do) but you really want more hands-on vet experience since you're going to apply to vet school, I'd bet they'd be willing to accomodate you. You're already familiar with the clinic, so it would be in their best interest to keep you around.
BTW, I work in a clinic where everyone shares technician/reception duties, and I found the reception aspect one of the most challenging. You never know when someone's going to call in and become furious because you can't tell them whether or not their dog's leg is broken over the telephone!

 

[VAgirl]

One of the things I've learned through these boards is that, aside from the cut and dry experiences where it was purely animal and no vet aspect, or the other way around, everyone has a different opinion on where it should be put. Some people are for splitting experiences out into their vet vs. animal components and counting them that way. Others don't like to do it that way (myself included). Some people list research stuff under animal when they could have listed under vet. Etc. etc. The other thing is that different people seem to have categories similar experiences almost every way possible and those people have still gotten in. It doesn't seem to be too huge of an issue at the end of the day.

The major things that I've noticed that do seem to matter are:
1) Making sure that all of your relevant experience are included on the VMCAS application (very obvious, I know, but we all seem to miss one thing or another), and
2) Making sure that experiences don't get overlooked. The most common way experiences seem to get overlooked (IMO) is if you stick something under "work experience" when it's really vet or animal experience, despite the fact that it was also a form of employment for you. It doesn't seem that adcoms look at the work experience as closely as they do the other categories.

But I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just get the info in there and give it your best shot on categorizing things appropriately (i.e. in a way that seems to you to be consistent with the VMCAS guidelines). That should be good enough.

 

[sumstorm]

When I spoke to VMCAS regarding dividing hours for a particular 'work' experience, I was told repeatedly that it was highly frowned upon, and often scrutinized for possible 'double-dipping' by ad-coms. When pressed, I was told if the experiences were very distinctively 'vet' and 'non-vet' a division could be made.

For example, while I was an education curator at a zoo, I was responsible for working directly with the vet on the exotics I managed as part of the education program, plus supervising my staff carrying out the Rx's of our zoo vet. That was about 8-10 hours a week, including observing the occasional 'interesting' procedure elsewhere in the zoo, assisting with emergency treatment throughout the zoo, and participating in necropsies. The other 50 hours a week (salaried position) were dedicated to staff/volunteer management and training, animal training (for programs and medical care), program/event development, fundraising, etc. These I did divide into vet experience and animal experience, and had the vet write one of my recommendations.

However, in another position as a fisheries observer, I worked directly with a variety of vets to conduct necropsies, analyze tissues samples, and work on beached/injured marine mammals. That was probably 10% of my job, while 90% was challenging data and sample collection in difficult and unfriendly environments (think of fishing crews that would rather throw you overboard than look at you, at least when you first come on board.) I did NOT seperate these into vet and animal experiences because I couldn't list a particular vet who was my direct supervisor, I couldn't insure that an ad-com could contact the vet easily, and the proportion of work with direct supervision was limited.

Another experience that I listed as animal, but that involved a vet, was working with an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. Even though I could name the vet, could give accurate contact information, and it was a significant and life changing experience, I listed it under animal experience because it was part of a research program that involved lots of other experience, the language barrier for anyone that can't speak Thai would be difficult, and a vet who attended a Thai school may not be enthusiasticly embraced here. I actually spent time at the Thailand vet school as well (fascinating.) I did name the vet as a supervisor and contact, and I used the experience of riding domesticated elephants between hill tribe villages to provide treatment for livestock, people, and other domesticated elephants as the opening for my personal statement.

I might have a different view if I didn't have a lot of experience in vet med...but I think having a supervisor that is a vet that you (or ad-coms) can easily reach is critical. You certainly don't want to have ANY doubt of the validity of listed experience.

 

[david594]

I spent a summer as an intern at an equine rehab center. The facility did not have a vet on staff (though there were several employees who were vets in their own countries but not licensed to practice in the US). However, usually 2-5 different vets would come out each day to check on and treat their patients.
We (the interns) checked the horses over each morning, bandaged, administered medications (as directed by the vet, of course), groomed, helped out with various forms of therapy, and got to handle horses for and ask questions of the different attending veterinarians.
The experience was definitely very medically intensive, but I'm not sure it could count as "veterinary" experience because we weren't always working under the direct supervision of a veterinarian. Any thoughts?

So I just reread all this and here are my thoughts. You work for a non-veterinary organization. You are not working under a veterinarian there. The vets who come in are giving instructions for the care of animals owned by clients and you are simply working for the clients in carrying them out for them as opposed to actually working for the vets. So your involvement with the re-hab center is nothing more than animal experience.

Now you could separately list of any time you spent assisting/observing with each veterinarian listing the experience as being with each individual vet and not with the rehab center.

"Shadowed vet X: 40 hours"
"Shadowed vet y: 50 hours"


I think all experience can be classified by evaluating it against the "Bonehead test". Simply ask yourself "If I pulled a bonehead move that result in an animal dieing would a vet get sued?" If the answer is yes, then its most likely veterinary experience.

So if you gave a horse a months supply of meds all at once and it died who would be sued? Not the vet because he scripted it out fine. The rehab center would be sued because it was their staff that caused the error.

On the other hand if you worked in a SA clinic and was instructed to give 1.0mL of hydro and you didnt see the decimal place and gave 10mL and the animal died, the vet would get sued as that is the license you are working under.

 

[Pandacinny]

Man, this post has me a little nervous. For my job, I travel to different lab facilities to work totally different positions for weeks to months at a time. I put the experience from each facility in a separate listing under animal/vet/work experience as it applied. I listed it all separately because I did have a different supervisor who could be directly contacted at each facility. Also, like I said, it's a totally different job everywhere I go - I'm just not sure how I would have combined it all into one. Sometimes it's for sure vet experience, sometimes animal, and a couple times I've been doing something totally not animal related. Hopefully, adcoms didn't read my stuff and think I should have listed it all as one job. Maybe if I have to reapply next year, I'll call my schools.

 

[ri23]

Foreign vets are fine. Some schools actually encourage international exposure! However, I think it is probably best if you have some vet experience on the US too, just to be safe.

Foreign vets would be fine if you were working under them in a country where they are accredited. If they are not licensed to work in the US I would not put them down as the supervising vet being that they are not working in the capacity of a veterinarian.

 

[TurtleLover]

Another experience that I listed as animal, but that involved a vet, was working with an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. Even though I could name the vet, could give accurate contact information, and it was a significant and life changing experience, I listed it under animal experience because it was part of a research program that involved lots of other experience, the language barrier for anyone that can't speak Thai would be difficult, and a vet who attended a Thai school may not be enthusiasticly embraced here. I actually spent time at the Thailand vet school as well (fascinating.) I did name the vet as a supervisor and contact, and I used the experience of riding domesticated elephants between hill tribe villages to provide treatment for livestock, people, and other domesticated elephants as the opening for my personal statement.

Wow, that sounds like an amazing experience! Where did you go through to do this? How can I do something like that?

 

[sumstorm]

Pandacinny, it sounds like you did it correctly to me, since it sounds like each position was relatively distinctive (one supervisor at each experience, easily contacted, etc.)

Turtlelover, on the same fellowship, I spent a few weeks working with researchers on Mon Repos, a sea turtle beach/hatchers in Australia. The fellowship is a TJ Watson Fellowship and is only available to 60-80 students each year who attend select liberal arts colleges (which go through a tough process to be part of the network) and who go through an intensive review/interview/application process (worse than vet school) across the USA. The fellowship is for independent research of the individual's choosing (but is part of the application) for 1 year, out of US states and territories. No returns to the USA during that year, 22k stipend. Some fellows spend the entire time in 1 or 2 places, others string together a host of experiences. The experiences can not be focused around universities/schools or research centers. So I couldn't do something like 'veterinary education around the world.' I researched conservation programs and public education through places like zoos, parks, reserves, etc. Worked with non-profits, directors, curators, researchers, and vets, never any one place for more than a few weeks, very intensive (and time-consuming) but amazing and learned more than I could ever imagine. I have also become a big advocate for solitary international travel, as I believe it teaches a person more about themselves than any educational experience I have ever had.

 

[BayleeVet2B]

Since we're on the subject....here's my question.
On my application I listed my hours as a research assistant as "animal" experience. I read in a discussion awhile back that I maybe should have listed it as "vet" experience since it was under the supervision of a PhD scientist. First of all...is that correct? It should be "vet" experience? I thought I had it right, but now I'm not so sure.
Secondly, should I send an email to the schools that I've applied to that don't interview so that I can explain it better? Or will they figure it out themselves? I don't have a ton of vet experience...so every bit helps!

 

[VAgirl]

Since we're on the subject....here's my question.
On my application I listed my hours as a research assistant as "animal" experience. I read in a discussion awhile back that I maybe should have listed it as "vet" experience since it was under the supervision of a PhD scientist. First of all...is that correct? It should be "vet" experience? I thought I had it right, but now I'm not so sure.
Secondly, should I send an email to the schools that I've applied to that don't interview so that I can explain it better? Or will they figure it out themselves? I don't have a ton of vet experience...so every bit helps!

Yes, relevant research under a PhD scientist counts as vet experience. I wouldn't worry about it though. It would have been more ideal to put it under vet, but it made it onto the application under one of the two sections on which adcoms seem to focus. I don't think it'd be worth it to contact them and correct the location of the experience--it's not like you're giving them new information they don't already have. But that's just my opinion; ultimately you have to do what you think is best and what you can live with. (In other words, if it'll nag at you and drive you crazy, maybe give contacting the schools a shot.)

 

[ckd816]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was hoping to get some advice on this topic as well. I worked in a kennel at an animal hospital for about 9 and a half months. Most of the experience was husbandry related, but there was also a veterinary component. I administered medication per the vets there and often took orders from them regarding treatment, I made medical files and took animals to get treated by vets when I noticed illness or some sort of injury, and sometimes assisted in these treatments. However, my direct supervisor was not a vet. My supervisor's supervisor was though. What do you guys think? Animal experience or vet experience?

Thanks guys!!

 

[Electrophile]

Yes, relevant research under a PhD scientist counts as vet experience. I wouldn't worry about it though. It would have been more ideal to put it under vet, but it made it onto the application under one of the two sections on which adcoms seem to focus. I don't think it'd be worth it to contact them and correct the location of the experience--it's not like you're giving them new information they don't already have. But that's just my opinion; ultimately you have to do what you think is best and what you can live with. (In other words, if it'll nag at you and drive you crazy, maybe give contacting the schools a shot.)

Yes, ask the individual school. When I was applying, even though I was doing surgeries and that kind of stuff, I was told (for Mizzou, as I didn't apply elsewhere and only did their application, not the VMCAS) my research in grad school and undergrad was not counted as vet experience. I only counted hours that I was with an actual lab animal vet helping out our animals for treatments.

 

[VAgirl]

Yes, ask the individual school. When I was applying, even though I was doing surgeries and that kind of stuff, I was told (for Mizzou, as I didn't apply elsewhere and only did their application, not the VMCAS) my research in grad school and undergrad was not counted as vet experience. I only counted hours that I was with an actual lab animal vet helping out our animals for treatments.

Mizzou is the exception (or one of the exceptions). VMCAS instructions specifically state that research under a PhD scientist counts as vet related work. In this case, I actually don't think one would need to contact the individuals schools. If they accept the VMCAS application, then by extension they follow the rules that VMCAS uses.

 

[VAgirl]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was hoping to get some advice on this topic as well. I worked in a kennel at an animal hospital for about 9 and a half months. Most of the experience was husbandry related, but there was also a veterinary component. I administered medication per the vets there and often took orders from them regarding treatment, I made medical files and took animals to get treated by vets when I noticed illness or some sort of injury, and sometimes assisted in these treatments. However, my direct supervisor was not a vet. My supervisor's supervisor was though. What do you guys think? Animal experience or vet experience?

Thanks guys!!

For my experience like that, I put it under vet experience. It was at an animal hospital and I felt it counted.

 

[twelvetigers]

Haha. Now I actually have a question!

After reading about the adcoms paying less attention to the work experience, I wonder... I have a lot of hours working for Antech. I know most everyone knows what Antech does, so it's certainly relevant experience, and it was even in the teaching hospital at the vet school. But, no vet supervision, and no actual contact with animals... so it' went under work experience. I would hate to think it could be missed somehow because of the section it's in. Thoughts?

 

[Malhi]

Foreign vets would be fine if you were working under them in a country where they are accredited. If they are not licensed to work in the US I would not put them down as the supervising vet being that they are not working in the capacity of a veterinarian.

I replied to Pomona's question about having experience in foreign countries, not the original poster's question. Sorry about the confusion!

 

[aspiringDVM]

I know you can't double-dip on the VMCAS, but how do you treat being employed as a vet assistant and the like? I've never worked outside of vetmed, so will it look like I've never had a job before?
Also, how do you treat animal experience on the family farm? Is it the same as personal pet experience, which doesn't seem like it should count (if it did we'd all probably have tens of thousands of hours of animal experience!)?

 

[sumstorm]

ckd816, I personally would discuss it with the vet who was the supervisor to the supervisor. If they are ok with it listed as vet experience, go for it. If they aren't, and are going to scoff if contacted, I personally wouldn't. When I worked at the zoo, the vet was NOT my supervisor. Like many vets in zoos, he was a contract consultant, but he was willing to vouch for my experience and be listed as supervising the work.

I did list my family farm experience. There is a big difference, in my personal opinion, between shoveling out entire barns, feeding 40-100 head every day, hand stripping does for colostrum, shearing 100 sheep, trimming spurs and caponizing chicks, dehorning dozens of goats, butchering humanely, marketing, calculating feed to gain and feed to milk ratios, handling USDA inspections, competitions, etc. I counted choring hours (seriously, anywhere besides a farm or perhaps a competition-based companion animal family, do you spend the first 2-4 hours of every morning of your entire childhood tending to work that the other hands get paid for?)

I also did count my 'pets' but I also competed in obedience, herding, agility, and jr conformation as a child, raised leader dogs for the blind and canine companions and assisted trainers, and now, as an adult, I teach training classes for a Humane Society, attend seminars on canine behavior, and do Search and Rescue, all surrounding my pets. Having said that, I didn't count feeding the pet or vet care of them, only training and competition.

Hmmm... I suddenly remember WHY my parents didn't allow a television into thier house when I was growing up!

 

[sumstorm]

Oh, forgot to mention, Joseph M Piekunka, who use to be the director of admissions for Cornell, actually advises people who don't have large animal experience to find a farm to work on, even 'aunt helen's' place in the country where one could volunteer on farms. So, from that perspective, I consider farm work, even during my childhood, as very relevation. I counted work from age 8 and on (which is when I can first prove the work through 4-H and competition.)

 

[cms07c]

I have been riding horses my whole life (since age 6) and I have not even tried to total the number of hours...is it ok to list like 10,000 hours for animal experience? haha

 

[sumstorm]

LOL. I went through and estimated. I estimated on the low end. So, I know that I did a minimum of 2 hours of farm chores 6 days a week for at least 50 hours a week a year for 8 years. In reality, it was probably more like 2-4 hours a day 5 days a week and 2-20 hours per weekend (mostly due to seasonal differences). I also know each year we butchered, harvested, etc...and I can seperate those events and add them in, plus livestock shows. I reasoned it out on paper, underestimating for each thing...it still comes out to a shocking number of hours. I think as long as you can articulate it well, that it isn't just a random number, and you can back it up somehow, it is fine.

 

[EqSci]

I agree with suMstorm. I underestimated my weekly hours and multiplied. I figured the extra time I spent on weekends, special events, etc. outweighed vacations and the like. Actually, now that I think about it, I didn't include riding!!! To me, that was part of horse ownership, and we aren't supposed to include pet ownership as experience.

Either way, I think the description means much more than the hours. After you get about a couple thousand the numbers don't matter much anyway. What you gained from the experience is more important!

 

[twelvetigers]

On a relevant subject, I went to visit one of the lovely ladies here at OKSU about my progress. During our chat, I discovered that they absolutely want to see pet ownership on the VMCAS, or else they might assume that you were a city person that's never even had pets. After looking quite flabbergasted and explaining that I thought that was a big, capital letters NO-NO, she said she disagreed, but if it were an issue to at least mention it in the personal statement.

Every vet school wants something different! Since OKSU is probably my first choice or best bet (however you like to see it) I might just put it in there anyway, and if other schools don't like it, well, they can ignore it, right? I haven't decided yet.

She did say, though, that the hours you list should be from the time you actively participated in the care of the animal(s). So, not since you were born.

 

[sumstorm]

I think that is my biggest frustration...I feel like the schools are using VMCAS, but then disregarding the system. Either agree with its standards (such as reporting all post secondary education, not reporting pets as experience, etc) or find a way to include these in a 'secondary' section, or even a secondary application.