Animal research: yea or nay?

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Nate1988

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This is obviously somewhat related to the LAM thread, but I think it really deserves to be its own topic. I was surprised that this was last addressed in a 2006 thread (which... didn't go very well).

My assumption is that most vet students feel that animal research, while certainly unfortunate and difficult to deal with, is currently necessary for many important advancements in biomedical science. But then again, I really don't know too many vet students/applicants, and it seems most of us are here first and foremost because of our borderline eccentric affinities for non-humans. So maybe my assumption is wrong?
 
Eh... Nope, I'm not assuming that. But I guess I should be more clear that I'm talking about laboratory research rather than field studies. And obviously the degree of "untoward pain and suffering" varies quite a bit depending on the research, but it's usually pretty safe to say that a lab animal will spend the majority of its life in a relatively small cage rather than merrily frolicking through fields of daisies.

So I guess I'm wondering how vet students feel about animal research when defined as the spectrum ranging from non-invasive rat behavioral studies to more invasive experiments such as non-human primate neurophysiology.
 
Eh... Nope, I'm not assuming that. But I guess I should be more clear that I'm talking about laboratory research rather than field studies. And obviously the degree of "untoward pain and suffering" varies quite a bit depending on the research, but it's usually pretty safe to say that a lab animal will spend the majority of its life in a relatively small cage rather than merrily frolicking through fields of daisies.

I worked with laboratory research cats - they were adopted out at the end of their studies. And all they really did during their time in the lab was reproduce. Which most pet animals don't get to do. 😉 Sometimes we did veterinary procedures on them that we also did to client animals (echocardiograms, electroretinograms, MRI, ultrasound, etc). All 3 of my cats are adopted research cats. I don't let them frolic through fields of daisies to be sure, but I don't think their lives are bad.
 
I just feel like you have this OMG VIVISECTORS picture of a monkey sitting there with electrode hooked up to its brain or something.
 
Unfortunately Nyanko, a lot of people do have this image of animal research. It is quite unfortunate, because like myself at one point, a lot of people are misinformed about what occurs in this environment. I was once a animal activist, although I never did a lot of the red paint stuff or anything over the top. I decided to get involved however, because I wanted to know more, and if things were as bad as we were told, things could only change from the inside. I work at a large research university and am involved with our lab animal medicine and also use animal models for my own research. Boy was I wrong about how I thought animals were treated in laboratories. There is a lot we go through to ensure that our animals go through the least amount of distress. There are very strict regulations all research institutions have in place before we can get approval to work with any species. They are constantly monitored and cared for. I feel that veterinarians could be against animal research but be for the animals and want to work in a lab animal environment because they want to ensure proper care. This is why I applied to be a lab animal veterinarian.
 
Our pigs live the same way pretty much in the research unit as they do out at our farm.
 
There is a lot we go through to ensure that our animals go through the least amount of distress. There are very strict regulations all research institutions have in place before we can get approval to work with any species. They are constantly monitored and cared for. I feel that veterinarians could be against animal research but be for the animals and want to work in a lab animal environment because they want to ensure proper care.

👍👍
This is what so many people don't know- you aren't just allowed to haul in a ton of animals and do whatever the hell you want to them in the name of research. People's protocols get turned down frequently or have to be refined before they can proceed. Yes, there are some studies that put the animal through "unrelieved pain and distress", but the vast majority do not (meaning there are studies that cause pain/distress but they're given something to ease that, or don't cause pain/distress at all).

One way to look at it is- these animals would never have been born if they weren't going to be used for research. It isn't like we're yanking wild rats off the streets (or out of their fields of daisies...) and forcing them to endure a research life. And while everyone would like to see lab animals have what we perceive to be optimal lives, it isn't feasible to have a field of daisies for every research rat, if you get the idea.

I'm interested in going into LAM- a decision I reached after shadowing or working with small animals, exotics, large animals, etc and finally lab animals. I spent three years at my undergrad caring for a huge range of lab animal species and while I think there's more than can be done (mostly on the enrichment front) I don't perceive it to be a soul-sucking field at all. I'll even venture to say that the majority of those who think it is a terrible thing have probably not had any experience with it and are basing their opinions on what they know from the media.
 
I've worked with and observed many different labs and species in different types of research, and I understand that it varies dramatically. Some research animals get to make a few babies and then be adopted out afterword, and some don't. But it seems more interesting to address the latter within the "Animal research? yea or nay" context...

Then don't address it in such a broad context - as you no doubt know working in a lab animal environment, lumping all types of animal research together kind of rings of the stance of the animal rights folks who disagree on a fundamental level with the entire practice of the "use" of the animals regardless of the outcome or even the process itself. That's a whole different philosophical argument and I have a difficult time seeing how someone in the veterinary field could have such beliefs without a whole barrel full of cognitive dissonance.

As far as the type of research you're talking about, anything where you have to kill otherwise healthy animals is going to be emotionally challenging. I feel like a lot of similar themes run through production medicine and shelter medicine as well. There are of course differences, but I think it's the job of a veterinarian to advocate for these animals during life, for their welfare and comfort. In fact it's part of the oath. And whether the proposed ends justify the means is also a case-by-case discussion when it comes to animal research, IMO.
 
Luck or no luck, Nyan, the animals that make the ultimate sacrifice, all 99.99% of them are not able to be claimed as pets after the course of their research. There are just not many PIs (or demand/funding) who write up protocols for such non-invasive studies (Hence the 3R's). It may not be the most optimal viewpoint of research, but's the observed truth. Just sayn....

I am a firm believer in working for and towards the benefit of all life.
 
Just pondering the thousands of Pokemon who sacrificed their lives to make the ultimate fighting Pokemon, Mewtwo. An excerpt from Wikipedia:

"The player first learns of Mewtwo late in Pokémon Red and Blue by reading research documents left in a ruined laboratory on Cinnabar Island. The documents reveal that a solitary scientist spent years genetically engineering a descendant of the Pokémon Mew. Mewtwo eventually escaped after proving too strong to contain."

Such a magnificent creature would not exist if it wasn't for those years of (Pokemon animal) research!:idea:
 
Agreed, RagtimeWille, agreed. And I've never watched pokemon, but your message is clear.

lumping all types of animal research together kind of rings of the stance of the animal rights folks who disagree on a fundamental level with the entire practice of the "use" of the animals regardless of the outcome or even the process itself.

Are you high? i won't judge you...just what you posted doesn't make sense. Either thing.

Are you an actual vet student? I won't judge you... just when addressing the subject of animal research as a controversial matter, it makes no sense to bring up your adorable post-research kitty meow meows because that doesn't give an accurate depiction of a typical animal research outcome.

Let me give you an example of my own. Imagine I had instead asked whether or not war is necessary. Your response: well, this one time during one war, a friend's grandfather's roommate went to battle and didn't really see any enemies. Then he went home and had a family and lived happily ever after. You shouldn't have addressed the question in such a broad context because it makes you sound like an anti-war activist.

I appreciate that you are (apparently, I think?) in favor of animal research, but I don't want you next me when I'm discussing with a reasonable anti-research person (in the same way that no republican wants Palin as their debate team member)
 
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Agreed, RagtimeWille, agreed. And I've never watched pokemon, but your message is clear.





Are you an actual vet student? I won't judge you... I'll just explain. just when addressing the subject of animal research as a controversial matter, it makes no sense to bring up your adorable post-research kitty meow meows because that doesn't give an accurate depiction of a typical animal research outcome.

Let me give you an example of my own. Imagine I had instead asked whether or not war is necessary. Your response: well, this one time during one war, a friend's grandfather's roommate went to battle and didn't really see any enemies. Then he went home and had a family and lived happily ever after. You shouldn't have addressed the question in such a broad context because it makes you sound like an anti-war activist.

I appreciate that you are (apparently, I think?) in favor of animal research, but I don't want you next me when I'm discussing with a reasonable anti-research person (in the same way that no republican wants Palin as their debate team member)

Do you have any numbers on the percent of animals that are adopted out post-research? because I see people quoting 99.99% are not but that seems anecdotal, too.

Are you this concerned for invertebrates as well? Or just vertebrates?

What alternatives do you see that are CURRENTLY feasible? I understand that models are being built, but many of them are not up to the same standards as using animals.

How do you think this will affect your possible veterinary career?
 
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Agreed, RagtimeWille, agreed. And I've never watched pokemon, but your message is clear.



Are you an actual vet student? I won't judge you... just when addressing the subject of animal research as a controversial matter, it makes no sense to bring up your adorable post-research kitty meow meows because that doesn't give an accurate depiction of a typical animal research outcome.

Let me give you an example of my own. Imagine I had instead asked whether or not war is necessary. Your response: well, this one time during one war, a friend's grandfather's roommate went to battle and didn't really see any enemies. Then he went home and had a family and lived happily ever after. You shouldn't have addressed the question in such a broad context because it makes you sound like an anti-war activist.

I appreciate that you are (apparently, I think?) in favor of animal research, but I don't want you next me when I'm discussing with a reasonable anti-research person (in the same way that no republican wants Palin as their debate team member)

You are ridiculous. It is important to discuss all aspects of animal research. Discounting someone's personal experience because it wasn't the same as yours is dumb. Sure not all animals are released and adopted out, but it does happen. It happens quite a bit here at my school. It is important for the public to know that not every research animal out there is having electrodes implanted in their brains and then terminated. Comparing nyanko to Sarah Palin is probably the stupidest thing I have read on this forum, ever.
 
Agreed, RagtimeWille, agreed. And I've never watched pokemon, but your message is clear.

Are you an actual vet student? I won't judge you... just when addressing the subject of animal research as a controversial matter, it makes no sense to bring up your adorable post-research kitty meow meows because that doesn't give an accurate depiction of a typical animal research outcome.

Let me give you an example of my own. Imagine I had instead asked whether or not war is necessary. Your response: well, this one time during one war, a friend's grandfather's roommate went to battle and didn't really see any enemies. Then he went home and had a family and lived happily ever after. You shouldn't have addressed the question in such a broad context because it makes you sound like an anti-war activist.

I appreciate that you are (apparently, I think?) in favor of animal research, but I don't want you next me when I'm discussing with a reasonable anti-research person (in the same way that no republican wants Palin as their debate team member)

haha what

I don't want you next to me during a debate either, because good lord your analogies and comprehension are poor. What did I say in my later posts that was objectionable to you? I feel that I was pretty clear in stating my position. That is, I don't think any reasonable veterinarian or vet student could be "against" animal research as a lump entity. There ARE people who are against animal research as a lump entity, regardless of the outcome, because animals are "used." With your piss-poor first post that said absolutely nothing of any substance, how was I supposed to know you actually meant ONLY invasive and/or terminal research?? That's not the only type that's actually controversial.....
 
To the OP: Several of your posts and remarks towards other's posts on this thread have lead me to think that perhaps you are not who you say you are. If you were truly involved in what you say you are, I feel you would have a much deeper knowledge and a better grasp on the realities of the biomedical world. If I am incorrect, I apologize. Regardless, I feel that if you believe so strongly that the negative side of biomedical research is the only side that you consider a path other than LAM for your career. That is if you are indeed seeking a veterinary education.
 
Agreed, RagtimeWille, agreed. And I've never watched pokemon, but your message is clear.



Are you an actual vet student? I won't judge you... just when addressing the subject of animal research as a controversial matter, it makes no sense to bring up your adorable post-research kitty meow meows because that doesn't give an accurate depiction of a typical animal research outcome.

Just wondering what the typical 'animal research' outcome is? Because skull-cap studies are basically limited to academia and do not comprise the majority of primate studies. Not to mention that in my major university, the mice who are no longer needed for breeding studies can be adopted out or given to the raptor center to feed our rehabilitating raptors. Is that also an abnormal outcome for animals used in research?

For the record- attacking anyone on the forum is completely unnecessary. Attacking someone as well-respected and positively contributing to the forum as Nyanko is downright stupid. Do you really want to chase the few active 3rd year vet students away who have not only made it through the application process, but also have succeeded in the bulk of the curriculum? Please don't.
 
Luck or no luck, Nyan, the animals that make the ultimate sacrifice, all 99.99% of them are not able to be claimed as pets after the course of their research. There are just not many PIs (or demand/funding) who write up protocols for such non-invasive studies (Hence the 3R's). It may not be the most optimal viewpoint of research, but's the observed truth. Just sayn....

I am a firm believer in working for and towards the benefit of all life.

I'm going to address this comment because I too am a little confused by the others. This "fact" that you have stated is incorrect. Are you referring to 99.99% of lab animals being rats/ monkeys/cats/dogs? I can't speak of my undergraduate research in full detail, but I can say that I worked with cats and dogs on mostly non-invasive research. This is still animal research, yes, but by law we were not allowed to perform invasive acts (ie surgery) due to the nature of our research (mostly nutritional). I can tell you that all of the animals I worked with, over 20, will be adopted out when they become middle aged, around 6-8 yrs of age if there are no complications. This practice is similar in most if not all nutritional research and other non-invasive research settings, not only in academia but also in large industry. I know many people that have adopted former research animals from industrial companies.

While I would agree that a large percentage of non-companion animals used for research will not be adopted out, I would argue that the nature of the research species plays a role in whether potential adoption is an option. Yes, you cannot save piglets who have had invasive procedures requiring euthanasia, but at the same time, you can't adopt out a piglet to any place other than perhaps a sanctuary after having invasive research performed because said piglet would not be eligible for human consumption, the other unfortunate fate of captivity bred piglets.

I agree with a previous statement in that many animals are bred for research purposes, just as animals are bred for consumption. Without these intentions, the animals would not have been brought into existence at all.
 
I think you guys are jumping on his/her head a little unfairly. New people can discuss things with established forum members without being 100% wrong, you know.

While there are definitely less invasive studies done on dog/cats, the vast, vast majority of (vertebrate) research animals are mice and rats, and their studies pretty much always end in euthanasia. It isn't right to assume that all studies are a peta activists' nightmare, but at the same time you also can't take rosy examples of dog/cat studies with happier endings as the norm.

I'm totally for most kinds of animal research, against it in some cases, and have decided where I stand through research, coursework and deep thought. I think more people need to do that instead of black & white "yea" or "nay" statements.
 
I'm totally for most kinds of animal research, against it in some cases, and have decided where I stand through research, coursework and deep thought. I think more people need to do that instead of black & white "yea" or "nay" statements.

I agree with what you are saying, I was just hoping to offer a different point of view. Maybe I was a little unjust in saying that the OP was incorrect in his use of phrases. However, as a relatively new member myself, I appreciate the ability to discuss topics such as this with individuals of different opinion than myself. I hope that we can all learn from this forum and maintain a camaraderie even if we don't get along! 🙂

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle
 
In the interest of full disclosure, my job for the past two years has been to manage a colony of about 80-100 monkeys and to perform the surgeries you're talking about. It's necessary to replace a portion of the animal's scalp with an acrylic "head cap" to penetrate its brain daily with an electrode without causing infection or pain. When the study is finished, I anesthetize the animal, open its chest cavity, and perfuse its brain with formaldehyde via the left ventricle. (In other labs this is also done with cats, by the way).

Any such protocol would certainly require confidentiality, not full disclosure on the internets.
 
I'm totally for most kinds of animal research, against it in some cases, and have decided where I stand through research, coursework and deep thought. I think more people need to do that instead of black & white "yea" or "nay" statements.

Could not agree more, and I appologize about the personal attack. I was just defensive about the "are you high?" comment, but the Palin thing still wasn't called for.

And to address earlier comments, I wasn't at all insinuating that my experience should invalidate anyone else's -- I was trying to get a sense of how vet students generally view animal research, and within that context even if someone supports the instance of non-vasive cats being adopted out afterward, that really doesn't say anything about his/her viewpoint on the majority of lab animal research (which does end in euthanasia). I am realizing though that perhaps students' feelings on the issue are too complex to be addressed in a "yea or nay" forum.

I'm also not sure how it came about that I'm against the so-called "negative side" animal research. I'm not, and I think that (at least, for the time being) it is completely necessary. That doesn't change the fact that I think it can be difficult to deal with, especially when working with NHP's.
 
Any such protocol would certainly require confidentiality, not full disclosure on the internets.

This! I'm glad you brought this point up because I feel it is important, and what you have just said is completely false. First of all, this is not a unique protocol. Literally any animal in a neurophysiology study will undergo a similar type of perfusion if the brain is to be studied afterward (histology, etc.)

Second of all, a protocol (as in, the official document which must pass an Animal Care and Use committee at each research university) is not private. Grants to obtain fundong are private, but animal protocols (and very involved process of having them passed by veterinarians, etc.) were put in place to ensure that the research being done is humane (3 R's, etc). One of my issues with animal research today is this "hush, don't talk about itin public" nonsense. It needs to be transparent in order for the public to be informed, and it actually weakens PETA's "arguments" if the public is granted full awareness.
 


Could not agree more, and I appologize about the personal attack. I was just defensive about the "are you high?" comment, but the Palin thing still wasn't called for.

And to address earlier comments, I wasn't at all insinuating that my experience should invalidate anyone else's -- I was trying to get a sense of how vet students generally view animal research, and within that context even if someone supports the instance of non-vasive cats being adopted out afterward, that really doesn't say anything about his/her viewpoint on the majority of lab animal research (which does end in euthanasia). I am realizing though that perhaps students' feelings on the issue are too complex to be addressed in a "yea or nay" forum.

I'm also not sure how it came about that I'm against the so-called "negative side" animal research. I'm not, and I think that (at least, for the time being) it is completely necessary. That doesn't change the fact that I think it can be difficult to deal with, especially when working with NHP's.
I'm pretty sure nyanko's are you high comment was directed toward ragtimewillie. Could be wrong about that though.
 
This! I'm glad you brought this point up because I feel it is important, and what you have just said is completely false. First of all, this is not a unique protocol. Literally any animal in a neurophysiology study will undergo a similar type of perfusion if the brain is to be studied afterward (histology, etc.)

Second of all, a protocol (as in, the official document which must pass an Animal Care and Use committee at each research university) is not private. Grants to obtain fundong are private, but animal protocols (and very involved process of having them passed by veterinarians, etc.) were put in place to ensure that the research being done is humane (3 R's, etc). One of my issues with animal research today is this "hush, don't talk about itin public" nonsense. It needs to be transparent in order for the public to be informed, and it actually weakens PETA's "arguments" if the public is granted full awareness.

Are you honestly telling me that when you were employed as part of this research project, they did not have you sign confidentiality forms? I find that highly dubious. With extremist animal rights groups like PETA and ALF lurking around, all involvement I've experienced with lab animal research comes with such stipulations attached. While I agree about transparency of public disclosure regarding ongoing NIH-funded studies, I think that a pre-vet student working on such a study as the one you described and speaking about its details on a public message board is irresponsible and unprofessional. You might want to go back and look at your paperwork.
 
New people can discuss things with established forum members without being 100% wrong, you know.

I agree with this, for what it's worth. I think it's good when new people come here and make well thought out posts and arguments, whether I personally agree with them or not. The first post by the OP was not in that category. His subsequent posts (the one making the terrible war analogy, questioning my status as a veterinary student and likening me to Sarah Palin excepted :meanie:) have better elucidated his background and views and actually made some point.

While there are definitely less invasive studies done on dog/cats, the vast, vast majority of (vertebrate) research animals are mice and rats, and their studies pretty much always end in euthanasia. It isn't right to assume that all studies are a peta activists' nightmare, but at the same time you also can't take rosy examples of dog/cat studies with happier endings as the norm.

I'm totally for most kinds of animal research, against it in some cases, and have decided where I stand through research, coursework and deep thought. I think more people need to do that instead of black & white "yea" or "nay" statements.

For the record, I wasn't trying to establish a norm, I was using my example to gauge the direction from which the OP was approaching the question, since the original post was completely unhelpful in actually starting a discussion. To me, the only people who have such black and white viewpoints of "for" or "against" animal research as a whole are either people who are uneducated about it or animal rights extremists who think that we shouldn't be 'using' animals for anything. So to even ask the question like "yea or nay" is going to lead to me perceiving that you either don't know what you're talking about or you're an animal rights activist. So that's where I was coming from.

And yes, I was talking to RagtimeWillie. The Pokemon analogy seems like something I would come up with after a good night of ganj.
 
I'm going to address this comment because I too am a little confused by the others. This "fact" that you have stated is incorrect. Are you referring to 99.99% of lab animals being rats/ monkeys/cats/dogs? I can't speak of my undergraduate research in full detail, but I can say that I worked with cats and dogs on mostly non-invasive research. This is still animal research, yes, but by law we were not allowed to perform invasive acts (ie surgery) due to the nature of our research (mostly nutritional). I can tell you that all of the animals I worked with, over 20, will be adopted out when they become middle aged, around 6-8 yrs of age if there are no complications. This practice is similar in most if not all nutritional research and other non-invasive research settings, not only in academia but also in large industry. I know many people that have adopted former research animals from industrial companies.

While I would agree that a large percentage of non-companion animals used for research will not be adopted out, I would argue that the nature of the research species plays a role in whether potential adoption is an option. Yes, you cannot save piglets who have had invasive procedures requiring euthanasia, but at the same time, you can't adopt out a piglet to any place other than perhaps a sanctuary after having invasive research performed because said piglet would not be eligible for human consumption, the other unfortunate fate of captivity bred piglets.

I agree with a previous statement in that many animals are bred for research purposes, just as animals are bred for consumption. Without these intentions, the animals would not have been brought into existence at all.

I would be happy to retract my comment on the 99.99% fatality rates. That was just way too high (or maybe I was!:laugh:). Then again, one must consider the fact the exact number of animals used in biomedical research is unknown. This is particularly true since government statistics do not include mice, rats, birds, and fish, which can range from tens to hundreds of millions. There might not ever be a way to successfully attain valuable statistical data to make such (ahem) erroneous claims. I used such a high value to emphasize a point; there are far greater euthanizations than adoptions of research animals. I hope this is something we can all agree on. So, 99.99% too high? Sure. But could it be agreed upon the majority to be somewhere above 90%? Maybe. Ok, then how low do you want to go? At the end of the day I'm sure the value truly depends on who you ask (especially frequent forum users). It also appears each and every one of our own subjective interpretations of research stems from our unique experiences, and therefore no wrong or right, or any simple yea or nay answer exists. As we have just seen, these are highly sensitive topics backed by strong opinions. With that said, can we just talk politics instead?
 
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I'm also not sure how it came about that I'm against the so-called "negative side" animal research. I'm not, and I think that (at least, for the time being) it is completely necessary. That doesn't change the fact that I think it can be difficult to deal with, especially when working with NHP's.

...this is not a unique protocol. Literally any animal in a neurophysiology study will undergo a similar type of perfusion if the brain is to be studied afterward (histology, etc.)

Sadly, nowhere in this thread have you given any positive view towards any of the 'good' things mentioned nor towards what you yourself claim to be doing (with the exception of stating that you think your monkeys live a decent life). For instance rather than be happy to hear that nyanko was able to adopt three research utilized felines you opted to jump on her by stating that this is not the typical outcome. As a member of the lab animal community, it is a responsibility of yours to see these types of success stories as a victory. No, it may not be the norm, but it is a wonderful thing that everyone in biomedical should strive for if at all possible. No, it will not always be the case that an animal can be saved and successfully find new life outside of the lab. However, it is not the case that every animal requires euthanasia either. For instance, let me provide you with how your thought that any animal in a neurophysiology study would require euthanasia in order to complete a project is untrue...

Head caps are, in many cases, removeable. If the animal was utilized for a project such as single cell recording or for the testing of certain equipment, and no compounds were injected and no complications were seen, the animal is considered healthy. In some of these cases investigators only seek that they are entering the correct brain regions - something that is easily obtained through imaging once the cap is in place. In these cases, following the study, the cap may be removed and repair of the skull and scalp may be made through plastic surgical procedures. These animals may then be placed onto non-invasive protocols (rats, cats and NHPs), released for adoption (rats and cats) or taken in by sanctuaries (cats and NHPs).

Also, as much as applaud you for wanting to educate the public on what happens in research settings, I would like to suggest that you find a better method of disclosure. I must be honest in saying that if I were your PI, I would be quite unhappy to see you fully disclosing in regard to entering the chest and perfusing the brain. It's illustrations such as this that give the public a bad view of biomedical research. It wasn't necessary for you to state what you do in such a graphic nature. John Q Public may not even know what the left ventricle is. All they see is 'enter the chest' 'brain' 'formaldehyde'. You could have easily stated what you did by stating that you manged a large NHP colony where you are performing awake single cell recordings (or whatever you may be placing electrodes for) and then at the end 'harvest the tissue for histology' in order to confirm proper study performance. Your way of explaining the project leads me to believe that you are currently fully focused on only the negative factors in your work rather than the good it may be doing. After all, without studies such as these, there would be no DBS for Parkinson's disease patients.

I understand that work like this can be emotionally draining for a great many people. However, given the size of the colony you state and the amount of work you claim, I can only assume that (if you are who you say you are) that you are at a major research institution where it would be required for you to undergo training on how to speak about your position, how to deal with the public and what you should and should not disclose in regard to the procedures you are doing. You should be well aware of what can happen at these places if information such as what you've disclosed falls into incorrect hands.

I'm not saying you should turn a blind eye to things or stop talking about what you do. However, if you are not completely comfortable with all the aspects of what you do, you really should take some stock and think about your future. If you do chose to go into lab animal medicine, you're going to need to look at animals in their cages and it will be your job to assess these types of studies and assist research staff with their work. It will also be your responsibility to ensure that all studies are carried out with the least amount of invasiveness possible to obtain the hypothesized results. However, sadly, if the protocol is justified for a class 4 study it means a class 4 study will be performed. If only after two years your finding yourself emotionally taxed, think about how things will be after a decade of having to oversee more than just one study. The work isn't for everyone...
 
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LMMS, thanks for your insight, which I can only presume comes from decades of experience in the field, but I have yet to meet good LAM vets who aren't emotionally affected by this stuff or view it as difficult to deal with.

I've taken down the description of what I do. A pre-veterinary forum clearly wasn't the place for this discussion. Iif anyone would like to PM me about the topic they're welcome to do so. Good luck to everyone.
 
LMMS, thanks for your insight, which I can only presume comes from decades of experience in the field, but I have yet to meet good LAM vets who aren't emotionally affected by this stuff or view it as difficult to deal with.

I've taken down the description of what I do. A pre-veterinary forum clearly wasn't the place for this discussion. Iif anyone would like to PM me about the topic they're welcome to do so. Good luck to everyone.

Nate, you are welcome. Yes, let's say I have been around the block. But, please know that am still very much effected by many of the things I do; and I still sometimes find myself awake at 2am trying to figure out how to rationalize to a study group that they should do 'x' not 'y' because 'y' is the right thing to do.

The best piece of advice I ever received was 'If it stops hurting get out.' One must have an emotional tie in this business; but one's emotions cannot override the justification of the science. To balance this (and justify it) for my conscious, I do everything in my power to provide the animals in my care with the best life possible - regardless of study outcome.

I hope you will find balance for yourself in not only what you're currently doing, but wherever the road may take you.
 
The best piece of advice I ever received was 'If it stops hurting get out.' One must have an emotional tie in this business; but one's emotions cannot override the justification of the science. To balance this (and justify it) for my conscious, I do everything in my power to provide the animals in my care with the best life possible - regardless of study outcome.

👍

Absolutely. Although it is applicable to pretty much every veterinary specialty, it holds an even deeper meaning to a laboratory animal vet. I have a ton of respect for them.
 
Hey everyone,
I am in a research program at my school and its time to pick a lab. I'm glad this thread came up because I'm kind of nervous about picking a lab involving animal research. I do not know a lot about animal research and thus don't really have any idea where I stand yet (I intend to do some research) but I'd like to get some people's opinions if that is alright. I'm planning on entering a lab that studies the L1 transposable elements of the genomes of rats. I'm not sure whether or not to join this lab...
 
Hey everyone,
I am in a research program at my school and its time to pick a lab. I'm glad this thread came up because I'm kind of nervous about picking a lab involving animal research. I do not know a lot about animal research and thus don't really have any idea where I stand yet (I intend to do some research) but I'd like to get some people's opinions if that is alright. I'm planning on entering a lab that studies the L1 transposable elements of the genomes of rats. I'm not sure whether or not to join this lab...

You could contact the PI and ask about their study, ask how they obtain their results. I think as long as you keep an open mind, it's okay to be a little nervous going in.
 
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