Another advice thread!

[inquisitive99]

Hello everyone,

I am new here and have been lurking for some time-- I appreciate this kind of forum and am looking forward to getting to know other professionals here. I am in a bit of a bind with my professional goals which is why I am reaching out to strangers on the internet if anyone feels so inclined to offer their perspectives on my plight!

The story: currently I am a psyd student at a professional school. It is a 3 year program for students who already have a master's degree (my master's is non-clinical). I have completed one year of coursework thus far and am just beginning the dissertation phase. I have also both started and left a practicum site. There is very little support for students at this school, which I thought I was going into with eyes wide open-- I figured I was going to pay an arm and leg to basically do independent studies and hopefully get a decent internship site.

However, I have not been able to get a hold of my dissertation chair for months and had an abusive practicum supervisor (and I don't use the word abusive carelessly... I am currently trying to figure out if the unethical behavior at this site warrants a complaint with the BOP). I'm beginning to feel as though I will not be able to reach my professional goal, which is essentially just to practice. The reason I chose this psyd program was merely because it was one semester longer than an mft program and I thought it would give me more employment options. Now I'm just wondering if I will be able to graduate.

I don't know what to do-- stick with it and fight for better treatment? Transfer to a different school or program and eat the cost? Are there other alternatives I'm not seeing?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted106747]

If I were you - given the facts as you've laid them out as well as your goal to practice - I'd likely leave the program and cut my losses for the year. Then I think I'd get a master's in clinical social work and get some specialty training in various therapies that would direct me toward a niche. It sounds like you have 2 years left at the program itself and then you'd still need to pay tuition for internship year?

You might also get some of the coursework to transfer.

 

[Dr. Melfi]

With regard to the practicum supervisor, it would be appropriate to go to your director of training or whomever is responsible for overseeing your practicums and discuss an appropriate course of action.

 

[PsyDr]

This has to be a BS program.


One of the general characteristics of internship directors is their ability to do simple math. They’re gonna be able to see the timeline. It’s not going to make sense. Why would they choose the oddball from a bottom of the barrel school over a standard applicant?

While it might sound harsh, it’s important . You might want to consider that stuff in your decision.

 

[inquisitive99]

Thank you for your response, I have not considered social work so I will look into that. Part of me would like to teach later if that became a possibility, which is another reason I decided on the doctorate, but I suppose one can teach with a master's sometimes depending on the program. Right now my priority is just to get good training and be treated respectfully. And that is correct, at this point-- 2 years left and then additional tuition for the internship.

If I were you - given the facts as you've laid them out as well as your goal to practice - I'd likely leave the program and cut my losses for the year. Then I think I'd get a master's in clinical social work and get some specialty training in various therapies that would direct me toward a niche. It sounds like you have 2 years left at the program itself and then you'd still need to pay tuition for internship year?

You might also get some of the coursework to transfer.

 

[inquisitive99]

With regard to the practicum supervisor, it would be appropriate to go to your director of training or whomever is responsible for overseeing your practicums and discuss an appropriate course of action.

While the director of training was sympathetic and supportive of quitting the site, they did not express concern for anything more than my well-being. I am concerned for all who come into contact with this supervisor so I plan on speaking with the department chair to discuss. Perhaps there is nothing to be done, which is disheartening.

 

[inquisitive99]

This has to be a BS program.


One of the general characteristics of internship directors is their ability to do simple math. They’re gonna be able to see the timeline. It’s not going to make sense. Why would they choose the oddball from a bottom of the barrel school over a standard applicant?

While it might sound harsh, it’s important . You might want to consider that stuff in your decision.

I'd like to think personality and skills are a part of the deciding factor when it comes to internships, but I do understand what you are saying. My master's is solid so I was hoping that would also factor in, but perhaps it is somewhat irrelevant for doctoral internships. I appreciate your input, and I will consider that as well.

 

[deleted343839]

I'd like to think personality and skills are a part of the deciding factor when it comes to internships, but I do understand what you are saying. My master's is solid so I was hoping that would also factor in, but perhaps it is somewhat irrelevant for doctoral internships.

PsyDr is correct that the reputation of your doctoral program matters a lot. It is not the only factor, but it will affect your competitiveness in ways you may not be able to anticipate. Your master's program will not matter much by comparison.

I would consider your experiences so far, and your program's match rate for APA-accredited internships, and make a decision without any expectation that things will improve if you continue (what evidence do you have otherwise?).

Perhaps there is nothing to be done, which is disheartening.

There are a range of possible actions here. On one hand, it's not rare for programs to uncover problems with practicum sites and end their affiliations with them. On the other end of the spectrum, you could pursue a board complaint, but I would be reluctant to recommend this without support from your program faculty.

 

[R. Matey]

Part of me would like to teach later if that became a possibility, which is another reason I decided on the doctorate, but I suppose one can teach with a master's sometimes depending on the program.

I've known some master's level providers to hold ad hoc teaching contracts for areas that they might have expertise in. Usually these are in master's level training programs. If that's all you mean by teaching, then yes that exists. I did some of that work at the master's level.

I'd say beware of sunk costs. You don't have to finish this if it really doesn't benefit you.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd like to think personality and skills are a part of the deciding factor when it comes to internships, but I do understand what you are saying. My master's is solid so I was hoping that would also factor in, but perhaps it is somewhat irrelevant for doctoral internships. I appreciate your input, and I will consider that as well.

Reputation of program is HUGE. It's mostly how we make our first cut. We get >35 applications for each position we offer. We don't have to take chances on programs with poor reputations. I'm not sure how much I'd rely on the master's to carry you in an internship application as you stated that it is non-clinical. I'd have to agree with others, cut your losses and look to other paths.

 

[PsyDr]

I'd like to think personality and skills are a part of the deciding factor when it comes to internships, but I do understand what you are saying. My master's is solid so I was hoping that would also factor in, but perhaps it is somewhat irrelevant for doctoral internships. I appreciate your input, and I will consider that as well.

I’d like to think there are droves of supermodel lawyer billionaires that are dying to meet a grumpy psychologist. But...

You won’t get in the door to show your personality. Directors and employers have an abundance of applicants. An easy way to whittle it down is to take the graduates from programs they don’t like, and throw them in the trash without further review.

If you look through the want ads, you’ll notice there are few advertisements for psychologists and you’ll notice the ads aren’t up for long. That should tell you something about competition.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’d like to think there are droves of supermodel lawyer billionaires that are dying to meet a grumpy psychologist. But...

You won’t get in the door to show your personality. Directors and employers have an abundance of applicants. An easy way to whittle it down is to take the graduates from programs they don’t like, and throw them in the trash without further review.

If you look through the want ads, you’ll notice there are few advertisements for psychologists and you’ll notice the ads aren’t up for long. That should tell you something about competition.

There is one place here that is ALWAYS hiring. Though, they have terrible benefits, and try to sell people on the wonders of a 50/50 collections split. You can guess the makeup of their staff in terms of training programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

While the director of training was sympathetic and supportive of quitting the site, they did not express concern for anything more than my well-being. I am concerned for all who come into contact with this supervisor so I plan on speaking with the department chair to discuss. Perhaps there is nothing to be done, which is disheartening.

While I can understand the DOT may have chosen not to express their concerns about the practicum supervisor directly to you (i.e., instead opting to discuss them directly with a peer), it does sound problematic that some semblance of a plan to address the issue wasn't mentioned.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with folks above in saying you might be best served by cutting your ties (and your losses) with the program, rather than sinking more money into what's already become a problematic and underwhelming training experience.

And I agree with folks above RE: reputation of doctoral programs and their relative weight in the internship application process. Being a three-year program already works against you in terms of accruing clinical training hours, which might get your application cut from consideration outright before further review (it would at our internship). And if the program has a negative reputation locally or nationally, internship directors and faculty may decide that even if there's the potential you're a stellar applicant, they don't want to risk potentially having to remedy all the problems that could come with a student from that program.

 

[inquisitive99]

Thank you all for your comments. It helps to see how much the reputation of the school influences internship and employment opportunities. I am dreading the thought of changing schools, however. Maybe I'll just leave the whole endeavor behind for a hobby farm and blog about philosophy, lol.

As I continue to wrestle with this decision, I will say that there are students from this school accepted to internship sites that I would be happy with. But they have years of clinical experience as mfts, and I do not-- plus I do not interview well so I am concerned about that as well. And maybe this has just been my experience so far, but it seems like introversion is not appreciated in this field as much I thought it might be. I've encountered a great deal of gregarious practitioners which makes me feel out of place. Not sure if that is a common experience or not but so far that is influencing my decision a great deal in addition to the practical concerns...

 

[WisNeuro]

At least in my specific area, I don't think introversion hurts you. Some of the more well-known and respected neuropsychs I know are pretty introverted. And, some, probably myself included, are pretty abrasive at times. Who you know and your training background reputation matter more early on. Your work and your reputation are what matters down the road.

 

[foreverbull]

Thank you all for your comments. It helps to see how much the reputation of the school influences internship and employment opportunities. I am dreading the thought of changing schools, however. Maybe I'll just leave the whole endeavor behind for a hobby farm and blog about philosophy, lol.

As I continue to wrestle with this decision, I will say that there are students from this school accepted to internship sites that I would be happy with. But they have years of clinical experience as mfts, and I do not-- plus I do not interview well so I am concerned about that as well. And maybe this has just been my experience so far, but it seems like introversion is not appreciated in this field as much I thought it might be. I've encountered a great deal of gregarious practitioners which makes me feel out of place. Not sure if that is a common experience or not but so far that is influencing my decision a great deal in addition to the practical concerns...

Many many psychologists are introverts (some of whom like me are here in SDN). Yes, the more outgoing folks are more visible, but I wouldn’t let this deter you. It does make certain aspects harder, like interviewing and networking, but it’s not insurmountable by any means and isn’t more difficult than any other field. I can’t think of very many professions that don’t require daily interaction or basic interviewing skills.

As for the program, I can’t imagine it being realistic to accrue enough direct contact hours to meet most internship sites’ minimums in 2 years before applying to internship. It’s hard to walk away from something like this, but if they’re going to hold you back via nonresponsivness on your dissertation work (I’ve seen a colleague experience this too from a less reputable program and it pushed them back a year or more and the colleague had to pay more $$$$ to finish) and if they aren’t that concerned when it comes to unacceptable behavior by people in power, those are huge red flags. What a bummer to be in that situation, but it might be better to cut your losses.

I will say, I’d be cautious about assuming you can teach easily with a master’s in our field. In some saturated areas, it’s hard enough to get callbacks for adjunct teaching for PhD graduates from APA-accredited programs. The competition is fierce in some areas, so make sure whatever you choose, you’re aware of the outlook in your region and with your degree.

Best of luck to you.