Another BS/MD program closes

[EdgeTrimmer]

This probably adds 20 more thru traditional program unless they expand their early assurance program.

HPME faculty terminate program

The Honors Program in Medical Education, a seven-year program that annually admits around 20 students simultaneously to Northwestern and the Feinberg School of Medicine, will be permanently discontinued. In an email, HPME program director and Feinberg Prof. Aarati Didwania said the program was...

dailynorthwestern.com

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[Lifeblood_20]

Applied to this program for undergrad and didn't get in. I agree that ending those ultra-selective combined programs is a good step towards more equitable and accessible MD admissions.
Any other BS/MD programs closing?

 

[HopeP]

Any other BS/MD programs closing?

WUSTL - 4 seats, not a make or break situation

 

[HopeP]

This probably adds 20 more thru traditional program unless they expand their early assurance program.

So far no indication of it anywhere.

 

[HopeP]

Its a stunning acknowledgement from SOM that they failed to achieve diversity. Playing devil's advocate, wonder how those 20 HPMe seats will make a difference in a class of 160 to achieve desired diversity? Are they acknowledging diversity failure in 140 non-HPME seats?

 

[KnightDoc]

Applied to this program for undergrad and didn't get in. I agree that ending those ultra-selective combined programs is a good step towards more equitable and accessible MD admissions.
Any other BS/MD programs closing?

Yeah, because when you're applying regular decision they don't look for the same exact things this program looked for, and now that this program is gone, Northwestern is going to be MUCH more diverse, because the 20 seats made all the difference in a class of 160, since they are all going to go to URMs now!

They could have addressed diversity the same way all med schools do -- by lowering to bar to allow some under represented groups in. They shut it down because it was an anomaly. I don't think it really has anything to do with diversity at all. What other university with a T20 UG and T20 med school has a BS/MD program?

I don't know the history of the med school's ranking, but the program was a throwback to when the UG was much lower ranked, and the program was a carrot to get some very high stat HS students to attend Northwestern UG due to the med school guarantee. Same as most other BS/MD programs today, but a T20 UG does not need this to attract top HS students.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Applied to this program for undergrad and didn't get in. I agree that ending those ultra-selective combined programs is a good step towards more equitable and accessible MD admissions.
Any other BS/MD programs closing?

My son also applied and didn't get an II. He got two others but chose to go traditional and got IIs at NU and others. I believe WashU also closed this year. Only T20 left is Pitt and then Goro's trailer park.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

WUSTL - 4 seats, not a make or break situation

They were down to 4 recently?

 

[KnightDoc]

WUSTL - 4 seats, not a make or break situation

Really? Another T20 UG and med school? Does anyone besides me see a pattern here??

 

[HopeP]

I don't know the history of the med school's ranking, but the program was a throwback to when the UG was much lower ranked, and the program was a carrot to get some very high stat HS students to attend Northwestern due to the med school guarantee.

That carrot was seeded in 1961 since your grandparents time.

 

[KnightDoc]

That carrot was seeded in 1961 since your grandparents time.

Sure! And it served its purpose, the same as it does today at schools like Albany and Drexel.

Why would Northwestern or WUSTL need such a program today? Especially when, as the article says, it really excludes all HS students who are not already plugged into the med school world through high SES, family in the profession, etc. If they don't want to open it up to regular HS kids from lesser backgrounds (which they don't for obvious reasons, like not otherwise having any metrics upon which to base a med school decision for a 17 year old), they are much better off shutting it down, since they certainly don't need it to attract high stat HS students to their UG!

 

[HopeP]

Their latest class profile states 23% URM so not sure about this fuss about diversity and HPME become an escape goat. Only thing I can think of is URM <> Diversity.

 

[KnightDoc]

Their latest class profile states 23% URM so not sure about this fuss about diversity and HPME become an escape goat. Only thing I can think of is URM <> Diversity.

I'm telling you, diversity is a red herring, so don't dwell on it. They are closing it because they don't need it to attract the students they want to attract, either to their UG or their med school.

Didn't you ever wonder why JHU, Harvard, Stanford, Penn, etc. don't have these programs while Albany, Drexel, NJMS, UIC, UMKC, etc. do???? Diversity is the excuse, and they are correct, as far as excluding URMs from the program goes, but that can be and is addressed at Northwestern and well as other schools through relaxed regular admission standards for URMs. HPME is not a scape goat -- it simply outlived its usefulness for a T20 UG and med school.

 

[HopeP]

they are much better off shutting it down, since they certainly don't need it to attract high stat HS students to their UG!

I doubt that 1% HPME enrollment had moved a needle to meaningful numbers for GPA and other standardized scores for UG. And from Feinberg perspective, its 0 number as there is no MCAT score for HPME being MCAT not required.

 

[HopeP]

I'm telling you, diversity is a red herring, so don't dwell on it. They are closing it because they don't need it to attract the students they want to attract, either to their UG or their med school.

Didn't you ever wonder why JHU, Harvard, Stanford, Penn, etc. don't have these programs while Albany, Drexel, NJMS, UIC, UMKC, etc. do???? Diversity is the excuse, and they are correct, as far as excluding URMs from the program goes, but that can be and is addressed at Northwestern and well as other schools through relaxed regular admission standards for URMs. HPME is not a scape goat -- it simply outlived its usefulness for a T20 UG and med school.

I am eluding to same thing, diversity is an escape goat, its also not about attracting high performing high school students either as it is only 1% of UG population, that makes me think underlying reasons are something else.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am eluding to same thing, diversity is an escape goat, its also not about attracting high performing high school students either as it is only 1% of UG population, that makes me think underlying reasons are something else.

Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I am 100% sure BS/MD programs are designed to attract high performing HS students to UG programs, and then med schools, they'd never otherwise consider. You didn't answer when I asked if you thought it was a coincidence that these programs are almost exclusively offered by low ranked UGs, med schools, or both. Harvard doesn't offer it because they don't need to in order to attract top HS students, or med students, while UMKC does. Northwestern UG and med school looks a helluva lot more like Harvard in 2020 than UMKC. End of story!!

 

[HopeP]

Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I am 100% sure BS/MD programs are designed to attract high performing HS students to UG programs, and then med schools, they'd never otherwise consider. You didn't answer when I asked if you thought it was a coincidence that these programs are almost exclusively offered by low ranked UGs, med schools, or both. Harvard doesn't offer it because they don't need to in order to attract top HS students, or med students, while UMKC does, Northwestern UG and med school looks a helluva lot more like Harvard in 2020 than UMKC. End of story!!

We are on same page, not even disagree on this point. I am not a proponent of BS/MD, nor suggesting that BS/MD programs are great except very few notable ones like HPME, PLME. WUSTL..
Agree that majority of BS/MD programs are low tier UG, mid-tier med school.
In case of NU, attracting high performing HS students theory doesn't fly as HPME 20 students are mere 1% of 2000 UG enrollment. So even let's say that 1% has perfect stats, still it won't move a needle meaningfully for all UG stats, plus do they really need 60 years of HPME for facelift?

 

[KnightDoc]

We are on same page, not even disagree on this point. I am not a proponent of BS/MD, nor suggesting that BS/MD programs are great except very few notable ones like HPME, PLME. WUSTL..
Agree that majority of BS/MD programs are low tier UG, mid-tier med school.
In case of NU, attracting high performing HS students theory doesn't fly as HPME 20 students are mere 1% for 2000 UG enrollment. So even let's say that 1% has perfect stats, still it won't move a needle meaningfully for all UG stats, plus do they really need 60 years of HPME for facelift?

I do believe we are saying the same thing. The programs are a tiny portion of the UG student body at all schools. They are not meant to raise the average SAT scores. They are meant to seed the schools with some very high achievers, who hopefully will inspire their classmates.

Albany and Drexel need them. Northwestern, not so much. THAT's why they are ending the program. Diversity is the PC excuse.

They would never be rude or honest enough to admit they used it back in the day to attract students who would never otherwise attend their school, and today, the school is so highly ranked that there is no such thing, so they don't need to use a guaranteed admission to a T20 med school as an inducement to get a high achieving HS student to want to come to Northwestern.

Does any school with a BS/MD program admit they use it as a lure to get risk averse high achieving, predominantly ORM students to attend schools they'd never consider without a med school guarantee that they likely don't need, since the programs are so damn difficult to get into that, by and large, the only people accepted are people that would be fine without the guarantee, especially at that tier of school??? No!! So why would Northwestern be honest about why it is doing what it is doing here?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You can't look at percentages. Schools like Vandy, WashU, Emory have merit scholarships instead of BSMD to lure students from Ivies and their scholarships are also 1-2% of their class size.

 

[HopeP]

It is guaranteed to discourage those mom-and-pop consulting firms hiring every BS/MD student as consultant.

 

[KnightDoc]

You can't look at percentages. Schools like Vandy, WashU, Emory have merit scholarships instead of BSMD to lure students from Ivies and their scholarships are also 1-2% of their class size.

Exactly. Nobody expects these programs to move the needle on the metrics @HopeP is looking at. They are meant to lend a little prestige to an institution by attracting a certain type of student, and, as I said, to seed a class with a few high performers. All schools except the very tippy top do this to a certain extent.

 

[KnightDoc]

It is guaranteed to discourage those mom-and-pop consulting firms hiring every BS/MD student as consultant.

How so? BS/MD is alive and well, except at the one notable outlier program. WUSTL was too small to be on anyone's radar. Brown is sometimes also considered one, but I was never that impressed, given that Brown UG does not give merit money to anyone, it is super hard to get into, and its med school isn't so highly ranked. But, it is an exception to the general rule, since it certainly doesn't need the program to attract top students to its UG or med school.

 

[Isomerase]

What other university with a T20 UG and T20 med school has a BS/MD program?

Only T20 left is Pitt and then Goro's trailer park.

Rice/Baylor has entered the chat.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Rice/Baylor has entered the chat.

Rice/Baylor takes 5 or 6 only per year.

 

[Isomerase]

Rice/Baylor takes 5 or 6 only per year.

Yea I think it's more like 10 but Baylor ends up taking 40 other Rice kids each year anyway. The nice thing about that program is the students can apply out without risking their Baylor acceptance. However it ends up functionally serving the same role as other BS/MD programs. Even though the students in it are capable of getting into top 10 med schools, the effort of studying hard for the MCAT and crafting a top 10 worthy application is rarely worth it when they can just fall back on their Baylor acceptance.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yea I think it's more like 10 but Baylor ends up taking 40 other Rice kids each year anyway. The nice thing about that program is the students can apply out without risking their Baylor acceptance. However it ends up functionally serving the same role as other BS/MD programs. Even though the students in it are capable of getting into top 10 med schools, the effort of studying hard for the MCAT and crafting a top 10 worthy application is rarely worth it when they can just fall back on their Baylor acceptance.

Are you in that program?

 

[Isomerase]

Are you in that program?

I think my ACT was about 37 points too low to get into that program. I spent high school watching netflix. I know many people in it though.

 

[HopeP]

They are meant to lend a little prestige to an institution by attracting a certain type of student, and, as I said, to seed a class with a few high performers

How that makes any material difference in schools prestige if they were doing for 3 generations? What you are saying makes sense for Albany, Drexel kind of UGs, but NU was out of that league for a very very long time. Fact is regular UG students are kicking HPME students left and right in terms of all aspects of college life, source know quite a few Ns from current UG.

 

[KnightDoc]

Rice/Baylor has entered the chat.

Oops, forgot about them!!! That program is another anomaly, although it is pretty small, so it's more like WashU than Northwestern. If they are paying attention, they are probably next.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Oops, forgot about them!!! That program is another anomaly, although it is pretty small, so it's more like WashU than Northwestern. If they are paying attention, they are probably next.

My recollection is they take around 6 kids and out of that one or two OOS. So my son didn't apply plus he doesn't want to be in humid Houston

 

[KnightDoc]

How that makes any material difference in schools prestige if they were doing for 3 generations? What you are saying makes sense for Albany, Drexel kind of UGs, but NU was out of that league for a very very long time. Fact is regular UG students are kicking HPME students left and right in terms of all aspects of college life, source know quite a few Ns from current UG.

?????? I haven't been paying attention so I don't know just when Northwestern entered the T20 and then T10, but the administration finally woke up and realized the program had outlived its usefulness. You're right about Northwestern UG not being comparable to Albany and Drexel, and now it is no longer the exception to the rule about who offers BS/MD programs. As noted above, that honor now belongs exclusively to Brown and Rice!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think my ACT was about 37 points too low to get into that program. I spent high school watching netflix. I know many people in it though.

How do you end with at T15 UG with score like that?

 

[KnightDoc]

My recollection is they take around 6 kids and out of that one or two OOS. So my son didn't apply plus he doesn't want to be in humid Houston

I'm pretty sure you're right, but what's the difference between 6 and 10? Either way, it's a tiny program.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

As noted above, that honor now belongs exclusively to Brown and Rice!

But Brown is not T20 medical only UG T20. May be they got ranked low due to trailer park comparison.

 

[KnightDoc]

How do you end with at T15 UG with score like that?

Pretty sure it's a joke, since ACT max score is 36!

Get with the program, old man!!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I'm pretty sure you're right, but what's the difference between 6 and 10? Either way, it's a tiny program.

difference is 40%, just kidding. Enough on that.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Pretty sure it's a joke, since ACT max score is 36!

Get with the program, old man!!!

I don't need you to explain jokes kiddo!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

But Brown is not T20 medical only UG T20. May be they got ranked due to trailer park comparison.

True, but that's not the point!!! These programs generally benefit the UGs far more than the med schools. The lowest ranked MD schools in the country have absolutely no problem attracting very high achieving students. Not so much for the low ranked UGs. Brown is an exception, even though its med school is not T20, because its UG is, and it certainly does not need a BS/MD program to attract high stat students to either school.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't need you to explain jokes kiddo!!!

Okay, but that wasn't obvious since your post was otherwise not funny!

 

[PikminOC]

Where's the diversity in football, basketball, tv, movies? This is all nonsense

 

[HopeP]

that honor now belongs exclusively to Brown and Rice!

Browns always love rice.

 

[DNAJB6]

My son also applied and didn't get an II. He got two others but chose to go traditional and got IIs at NU and others. I believe WashU also closed this year. Only T20 left is Pitt and then Goro's trailer park.

???

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

???

Brown

 

[Angler]

I am a (long ago - I just retired from practice) graduate of NU‘s HPME program. My class of 60 (out of 170) clearly was diverse. There were several students from inner city backgrounds who struggled academically at NU, but became fine physicians. NU worked really hard to help them succeed on their own. I was from a small west coast town with my high school not having any AP classes. I was, at the time, an URM. However, clearly, after changes in our national demographics, I am no longer that. And my daughter (now applying to Med School) is ORM (oh, how I wish...). My stats were ok, but no way close to sky high. There were Westinghouse Regeneron winners in my class, but I didn’t even know what that was!

There’s no way I could get into such a program today. Shadowing & other EC’s were non existent in my community and in my application. But they saw something in me, I guess.

So, this is just anecdotal, but in my day, I think it worked for diversity. And for me

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I am a (long ago - I just retired from practice) graduate of NU‘s HPME program. My class of 60 (out of 170) clearly was diverse. There were several students from inner city backgrounds who struggled academically at NU, but became fine physicians. NU worked really hard to help them succeed on their own. I was from a small west coast town with my high school not having any AP classes. I was, at the time, an URM. However, clearly, after changes in our national demographics, I am no longer that. And my daughter (now applying to Med School) is ORM (oh, how I wish...). My stats were ok, but no way close to sky high. There were Westinghouse Regeneron winners in my class, but I didn’t even know what that was!

There’s no way I could get into such a program today. Shadowing & other EC’s were non existent in my community and in my application. But they saw something in me, I guess.

So, this is just anecdotal, but in my day, I think it worked for diversity. And for me

For last few years they were taking around 20 students only and 80% are high stats ORMs who could do medical related ECs in HS but too afraid to go thru traditional path or wants to finish medicine one year early so they can start making money early.