Another debt thread

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Apoplexy__

Apoplexy__

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I felt compelled to make this thread because I finally stumbled upon hard evidence of what medical student debt realistically looks like. We've all probably seen both reported medians and means of about $150-180k for debt across all medical students, with the caveat that those without debt are dragging the number down.

Medscape's 2014 report of 1279 residents demonstrates 25% of residents having no debt at all, with 36% having >$200k.

Reworking the numbers, that comes out to ~50% of medical students with debt having >$200k.
 
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Those reports are obsolete as soon as they come out because tuition goes up by around 5% a year. I expect that when I'm a resident, 500k will not be an uncommon number with the average about 3-400k
 
How do these numbers reflect those of us who have parents that front all the money, but that we intend to pay back? Technically indebted to a similar degree. I suppose it depends how the survey in worded
 
fastlane said:
How do these numbers reflect those of us who have parents that front all the money, but that we intend to pay back? Technically indebted to a similar degree. I suppose it depends how the survey in worded
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What % of people that actually claim they're going to do that, do you think actually do? I'd imagine an extremely small amount.
 
PL198 said:
What % of people that actually claim they're going to do that, do you think actually do? I'd imagine an extremely small amount.
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I had a few classmates that borrowed money from their parents and they are all in the process of paying it back. However they're usually paying with no or little interest, so it's still a huge savings compared to federal loans.
 
DoctwoB said:
I had a few classmates that borrowed money from their parents and they are all in the process of paying it back. However they're usually paying with no or little interest, so it's still a huge savings compared to federal loans.
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I'm thinking that if this survey asked for "Federal Loans" the students would have entered in $0.... even though they are paying back their parents $250K. So the debt figures even this survey may be lower than what is the *true* amount.
 
Psai said:
Those reports are obsolete as soon as they come out because tuition goes up by around 5% a year. I expect that when I'm a resident, 500k will not be an uncommon number with the average about 3-400k
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They didn't even interview interns; this survey was residents across the board. So the debt levels reported are from people entering medical school in 2006-2010. Man, it must have been nice to go to medical school at 2008-ish prices!
 
sazerac said:
They didn't even interview interns; this survey was residents across the board. So the debt levels reported are from people entering medical school in 2006-2010. Man, it must have been nice to go to medical school at 2008-ish prices!
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Not only that but around 2008 was when the shift from 2% consolidation to 6.8% fixed interest occurred.
 
fastlane said:
How do these numbers reflect those of us who have parents that front all the money, but that we intend to pay back? Technically indebted to a similar degree. I suppose it depends how the survey in worded
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It doesn't. You don't have real loans and you aren't "technically indebted" in a similar way at all. You don't have MPNs that you signed your name to tying yourself to nondischargable debt accumulating at 6.8% per year and you won't have 200K+ of loans show up on your credit report. It's nice that you're planning on paying your parents back but it's not the same situation at all and it should not be reflected in the survey (it doesn't seem like it was).
 
Based on my schools COA + my few thousand in loans from undergrad I'll be looking at 290,000 when I graduate. We were told at the beginning of the year that after interest, a rough estimate is every dollar borrowed = 3 dollars payed back, so ~900k. Is this accurate?

And can one realistically pay that off in ~10 years?
 
O Grady said:
Based on my schools COA + my few thousand in loans from undergrad I'll be looking at 290,000 when I graduate. We were told at the beginning of the year that after interest, a rough estimate is every dollar borrowed = 3 dollars payed back, so ~900k. Is this accurate?

And can one realistically pay that off in ~10 years?
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I don't think you will be pay actually 900K if you paid it off in 10 years. If you graduate with 290K you will finish residency between 350 and 400K. You can look up how much each of the specialties makes. You pay it off as fast or slow as you want. If you became a spine surgeon you could probably pay it off in a few months if you wanted. If you became a pediatrician...well quite a bit slower.

Now if you start factoring in missed opportunity cost then sure...you are out millions (kidding, only slightly).
 
O Grady said:
Based on my schools COA + my few thousand in loans from undergrad I'll be looking at 290,000 when I graduate. We were told at the beginning of the year that after interest, a rough estimate is every dollar borrowed = 3 dollars payed back, so ~900k. Is this accurate?

And can one realistically pay that off in ~10 years?
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They use that triple-fold shorthand statistic at my school as well. At 8% compound interest, debt triples in 14 years. That's 10-14 years after graduation depending on when you borrowed the money throughout the 4 years -- for calculations' sake, roughly equivalent to a lump sum taken out for 12 years, as if it was at the end of MS2. Assuming you don't pay it off until after residency+fellowship, and assuming that's another 5 years, you have about 7 years of real income to stop it from tripling.

You can do a lot of damage to the debt in that 7 years. Whatever you can do exponentially improves your situation (rather, prevents exponential growth); the money you save by having the balance decrease every year drastically extends that "tripling deadline".

Crunching the numbers, I'm actually a bit surprised how similar to reality that figure is, though.
 
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Considering all the crap we have to fill out at my school at the end of the semester, Medscape could just spam the medical schools and have all 4th years answer a simple question.

"If you have borrowed student loans to pay for medical school, how much will you owe when you graduate next week". (add some disclaimer about the loans being from actual banks or .gov)
Then we'd get some real numbers.
 
Mad Jack said:
I wish I had 200k, that looks ****ing rosy. I'm going to have over 400k after residency.
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i_hug_that_feel.png
 
Frazier said:
Just to put in perspective the 500k student loans that are on the horizon, the monthly payment on 500k school debt would be more than the monthly mortgage payment on this 12,000 sqft mansion near Chicago...

http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...noll-Ct_Mundelein_IL_60060_M79306-16342?row=1
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Hearing my classmates moan and whine over having to do long division and multiply .04 x 3 made me realize why so many of them have an almost non-existent grasp on the debt load they will be dealing with and how that will impact them practically. More examples like the one you posted may be more useful than charts and graphs.
 
we need free medical education. AMA should push for that
 
Mad Jack said:
I want a 2,000 square foot home in the rural Midwest, so I don't think the debt will be a problem if I throw all my extra cash at it for 5 or 6 years.
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I think you'll do great and then some.

Whether you want a nice 12k sqft mansion near Chicago or a nice 2k sqft home in the rural Midwest, 500k in school debt stinks no matter what... that $$$ could go toward more useful/fun/enjoyable things -- whether that be home, hobbies, or investments.

I know you know this already.
I'm just saying.
 
GunnerBMS said:
yes, I mean tax rich people to pay for my education
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Yep, that what docs want is a larger, and more inefficient government middle-man between us and our jobs/education. Also, take a basic economics course. Trying to exclusively tax the rich never works, it always finds it's way back to affecting the middle and lower class. Not to mention, the word "free" should never be used in any sort of real discussion
 
Frazier said:
I think you'll do great and then some.

Whether you want a nice 12k sqft mansion near Chicago or a nice 2k sqft home in the rural Midwest, 500k in school debt stinks no matter what... that $$$ could go toward more useful/fun/enjoyable things -- whether that be home, hobbies, or investments.

I know you know this already.
I'm just saying.
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I agree, but I think the trouble is trying to suggest that the "debt" did not go to something. The same logic applies to the mansion or the yacht. That's all $$$ that could go toward more useful/fun/enjoyable things. We all die in the end, and you don't get to take the money with you so at some point you have to spend it on something. If someone has decided their education is worth $$$ so be it, if someone has decided their Venom GT is worth it, that's fine too. Provided your basic human needs are being met nothing is really essential. School debt cannot really stink any more than anything else you purchase unless you have buyer's remorse (which is, also, not exclusive to educational debt). I think the takeaway is really that people just need to know what they're paying for--be it school, a house, or a trophy wife--and be sure that they also want the consequences that come with it.
 
Narmerguy said:
I agree, but I think the trouble is trying to suggest that the "debt" did not go to something. The same logic applies to the mansion or the yacht. That's all $$$ that could go toward more useful/fun/enjoyable things. We all die in the end, and you don't get to take the money with you so at some point you have to spend it on something. If someone has decided their education is worth $$$ so be it, if someone has decided their Venom GT is worth it, that's fine too. Provided your basic human needs are being met nothing is really essential. School debt cannot really stink any more than anything else you purchase unless you have buyer's remorse (which is, also, not exclusive to educational debt). I think the takeaway is really that people just need to know what they're paying for--be it school, a house, or a trophy wife--and be sure that they also want the consequences that come with it.
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I agree...nevertheless, in a way, the debt doesn't directly go towards something benefiting the respective consumer student. The person that pays 500k for their medical education isn't getting that much better (if any better) of a product than their predecessors did 10 years ago at a fraction of the cost. Certainly not any better of an outcome (intrinsic worth of an MD/DO in 2005 is same street value as an MD/DO in 2015)...hell, extrinsic worth is prob higher for the 2005 MD/DO as they have some experience under their belt rather than the new grad.

So they will pay for the bloat that permeates throughout higher education (medical education being no different). The 5% annual increase in tuition seems to be somewhat common across the country, it doesn't go towards higher quality sprockets, more precisely engineered gears, or even finer leather...rather just feeding the ever-growing gluttony of the watchmaker.

Can't really blame the watchmaker. There's been a never-ending smorgasbord at their table for decades now courtesy head- and sous-chef GovLoans & AbleParents. There is no need to diet until a famine actually hits.

Now I'm not arguing that 500k "isn't worth it" (not saying it is worth it either). Rather, simply saying it is a shame that students will likely be eventually exiting medical education with half a million in debt on their back.

A MD/DO is an MD/DO, whether 100k or 500k.
A Venom GT is a Venom GT, but that's gonna cost you 600k no matter what.

EDIT: We are going to disagree about the second bold sentence. IMO, school debt stinks a whole lot more than what that money can be used for otherwise. Not even talking buyer's remorse. Example: A nice vacation with family is a wonderful experience that builds memories for a lifetime. If I had 10k sitting around and could either use it in 1 of 2 ways: to go on a truly awesome mind-blowing vacation with wife -- or give it to arbitrarily-raising medical school tuition rates... I would rather spend it on the former. The latter stinks in comparison. That is if I had an option. In reality, there is no option such as that.

Buyer's remorse implies a decision on part of the buyer... I bought a new BMW instead of a used BMW. Or I could have just bought a Chevy Cavalier. They all are "cars" and could have provided the essence of their purpose (transportation from A to B)..."Dang, I could have saved a hunk of change. I'm remorseful of not purchasing the cheaper alternative that would have provided me with the same utility."

If you get accepted to one school, there is no decision to be made on what you will be buying. There is no "used" degree. Pay sticker as offered in your finaid package, or no MD/DO, period.

There are no other brands or models.

Interested in hearing your thoughts, my friend.
 
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Frazier said:
I agree...nevertheless, in a way, the debt doesn't directly go towards something benefiting the respective consumer student. The person that pays 500k for their medical education isn't getting that much better (if any better) of a product than their predecessors did 10 years ago at a fraction of the cost. Certainly not any better of an outcome (intrinsic worth of an MD/DO in 2005 is same street value as an MD/DO in 2015)...hell, extrinsic worth is prob higher for the 2005 MD/DO as they have some experience under their belt rather than the new grad.

So they will pay for the bloat that permeates throughout higher education (medical education being no different). The 5% annual increase in tuition seems to be somewhat common across the country, it doesn't go towards higher quality sprockets, more precisely engineered gears, or even finer leather...rather just feeding the ever-growing gluttony of the watchmaker.

Can't really blame the watchmaker. There's been a never-ending smorgasbord at their table for decades now courtesy head- and sous-chef GovLoans & AbleParents. There is no need to diet until a famine actually hits.

Now I'm not arguing that 500k "isn't worth it" (not saying it is worth it either). Rather, simply saying it is a shame that students will likely be eventually exiting medical education with half a million in debt on their back.

A MD/DO is an MD/DO, whether 100k or 500k.
A Venom GT is a Venom GT, but that's gonna cost you 600k no matter what.

EDIT: We are going to disagree about the second bold sentence. IMO, school debt stinks a whole lot more than what that money can be used for otherwise. Not even talking buyer's remorse. Example: A nice vacation with family is a wonderful experience that builds memories for a lifetime. If I had 10k sitting around and could either use it to go on a truly awesome mind-blowing vacation with wife -- or give it to arbitrarily-raising medical school tuition rates... I would rather spend it on the former. The latter stinks in comparison.

Buyer's remorse implies a decision on part of the buyer... I bought a new BMW instead of a used BMW. Dang, I could have saved a hunk of change.

If you get accepted to one school, there is no decision to be made on what you will be buying. There is no "used" degree. Pay sticker as offered in your finaid package, or no MD/DO, period.
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I would agree that price increases seen today do not necessarily reflect 1:1 improvements in the product obtained. However, I that doesn't necessitate that $500K can't be good "value"--this depends what the student was willing to pay for the education. If I sufficiently wanted to go to Medical School that it was worth $1,000,000, then $500K is still a good value for me. If someone else only considers medical school worth $400K, then when yearly tuition exceeds $100K he's looking for another career. In general medical school appears pretty price inelastic so the watchmaker has considerable latitude before any reckoning must be had.

On your second point, I believe it's a personal calibration. However, technically speaking, if you truly thought school debt was worse you rationally would not be in medical school right now. The full cost and benefits of medical school need to be accounted for. Medical school affords lifelong benefits (ability to enter residency and subsequently practice) which all of us have figured into our calculation of how much we're willing to pay. Thus, without medical school, our ability to afford things like take mind-blowing vacations would be altered and require a new career trajectory (with all the ensuing costs and benefits associated with that trajectory). I would argue that you have done your math and decided that despite how unpleasant the debt is, you prefer that debt to what not attending medical school entails. Otherwise there's no rational argument for taking on the debt in the first place. I think there comes a point where, for some, how much extra debt is assumed for the sake of attending specific medical schools is severely limiting (i.e. I enjoy the additional $100,000 vacation more then I would enjoy the experience of attending School A over School B which is $100,000 cheaper).

So I suppose the statement would then be, you find all additional school debt above that which you must pay to attend your cheapest option to stink more than whatever else you could be doing. But this is completely a personal choice, and some people's preference for School A or C or D may be sufficiently strong that it's worth the additional $100,000 to them.

I'd like to add the caveat that I don't think most people really think this through when claiming that School A is worth an additional $100,000 for them. I find that hard to believe for the same reason: An MD/DO is an MD/DO. That means that those extra perks must really be worth a lot, and I suspect often people aren't really conceptualizing what $100,000 of opportunity cost feels like.
 
Narmerguy said:
I would agree that price increases seen today do not necessarily reflect 1:1 improvements in the product obtained. However, I that doesn't necessitate that $500K can't be good "value"--this depends what the student was willing to pay for the education. If I sufficiently wanted to go to Medical School that it was worth $1,000,000, then $500K is still a good value for me. If someone else only considers medical school worth $400K, then when yearly tuition exceeds $100K he's looking for another career. In general medical school appears pretty price inelastic so the watchmaker has considerable latitude before any reckoning must be had.

On your second point, I believe it's a personal calibration. However, technically speaking, if you truly thought school debt was worse you rationally would not be in medical school right now. The full cost and benefits of medical school need to be accounted for. Medical school affords lifelong benefits (ability to enter residency and subsequently practice) which all of us have figured into our calculation of how much we're willing to pay. Thus, without medical school, our ability to afford things like take mind-blowing vacations would be altered and require a new career trajectory (with all the ensuing costs and benefits associated with that trajectory). I would argue that you have done your math and decided that despite how unpleasant the debt is, you prefer that debt to what not attending medical school entails. Otherwise there's no rational argument for taking on the debt in the first place. I think there comes a point where, for some, how much extra debt is assumed for the sake of attending specific medical schools is severely limiting (i.e. I enjoy the additional $100,000 vacation more then I would enjoy the experience of attending School A over School B which is $100,000 cheaper).

So I suppose the statement would then be, you find all additional school debt above that which you must pay to attend your cheapest option to stink more than whatever else you could be doing. But this is completely a personal choice, and some people's preference for School A or C or D may be sufficiently strong that it's worth the additional $100,000 to them.

I'd like to add the caveat that I don't think most people really think this through when claiming that School A is worth an additional $100,000 for them. I find that hard to believe for the same reason: An MD/DO is an MD/DO. That means that those extra perks must really be worth a lot, and I suspect often people aren't really conceptualizing what $100,000 of opportunity cost feels like.
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Quality, as expected.

I can relate to the bold. Namely, personal preferences playing a part in choosing between School A or B or C -- a set of "product attributes" that would make the consumer think at the time it is worth an extra 5-figures. Just between you and me -- skipping a scholarship from Wisconsin to be where I am at today, sometimes I do indeed have buyer's remorse [other times, not so much]. In this set of circumstances permissible via merits that the two options offered the same utility and were largely alternatives of each other. Hell, and my debt will be under 250k...for this thread I try to put myself in the class of 2025 where that 250k would likely be doubled.

My argument from the earlier post was somewhat different in it was aligned not so much with myself or anyone else that has/had "options". Rather the individual that applies to a bunch of schools, gets accepted to one school -- then either attends or never becomes a physician. I don't think they can have buyer's remorse [in the truest sense] in that situation, because their other option isn't really a like alternative at all; they will not become a physician.

I guess it can just come down to personal definitions and interpretations.

PS: How's school treating you over there? Hanging tough?
 
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link2swim06 said:
I don't think you will be pay actually 900K if you paid it off in 10 years. If you graduate with 290K you will finish residency between 350 and 400K. You can look up how much each of the specialties makes. You pay it off as fast or slow as you want. If you became a spine surgeon you could probably pay it off in a few months if you wanted. If you became a pediatrician...well quite a bit slower.

Now if you start factoring in missed opportunity cost then sure...you are out millions (kidding, only slightly).
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Except 40-50% of the money a spine surgeon goes to pay taxes, before he/she can start paying off student loans, and they would have an extra 4 years of interest to pay.
 
DrBodacious said:
Except 40-50% of the money a spine surgeon goes to pay taxes, before he/she can start paying off student loans, and they would have an extra 4 years of interest to pay.
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Even at 50% they would still clear 500K a year. Assuming you keep up the resident lifestyles (~30K post-tax), you have 470K to apply to loans in your first year out.
 
link2swim06 said:
Even at 50% they would still clear 500K a year. Assuming you keep up the resident lifestyles (~30K post-tax), you have 470K to apply to loans in your first year out.
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a newly minted spine surgeon grosses 1M? Not to mention that's a ton of time for interest to capitalize. if they graduate with 290k, they're going to have a lot more than 350 by the time they are done with residency. so that's 5+1 right? 6 years of compounding 7 % is comes out to 435. I agree that being extremely frugal you could pound that out very quickly though.
 
PL198 said:
a newly minted spine surgeon grosses 1M? Not to mention that's a ton of time for interest to capitalize. if they graduate with 290k, they're going to have a lot more than 350 by the time they are done with residency. so that's 5+1 right? 6 years of compounding 7 % is comes out to 435. I agree that being extremely frugal you could pound that out very quickly though.
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Probably anywhere but the coasts. Spine and neurosurgeons work their butts off and make a lot of money.

Also your student loans don't 'compound' like credit cards do. Assuming you choose PAYE or IRB you continue to incur interest but not compounding interest after the initial capitalization.

Finally, most people have loan rates below 7%. I just graduated and my effective loan rate is closer to 6% (even with grad plus included). Only a percent, but never the less a lot of money.
 
link2swim06 said:
Even at 50% they would still clear 500K a year. Assuming you keep up the resident lifestyles (~30K post-tax), you have 470K to apply to loans in your first year out.
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As someone alluded to, there is enough competition in spine, that I doubt anyone would walk in to & 1M/yr out of residency. I don't know what at neurosurgeons make in employed positions.

Also - You actually have to use post tax dollars to build a practice. Equipment purchases are all capitalized as assists and then depreciated. Say you want to invest in an office building, or surgery center, for example (you should).

"Residency lifestyle"... If you are single, this is easier to continue. If If you are married, maybe with kids kids, it is already way past due for an upgrade after finishing a 7year residency. Buying a reasonable car. House payment. Nanny + Nanny tax. Housekeeper. Lawn guy. Good life and disability insurance. You can't be a neurosurgeon (read work 80+ hrs a week) without those things.
 
link2swim06 said:
Probably anywhere but the coasts. Spine and neurosurgeons work their butts off and make a lot of money.

Also your student loans don't 'compound' like credit cards do. Assuming you choose PAYE or IRB you continue to incur interest but not compounding interest after the initial capitalization.

Finally, most people have loan rates below 7%. I just graduated and my effective loan rate is closer to 6% (even with grad plus included). Only a percent, but never the less a lot of money.
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I don't think it's reasonable to expect $1mil directly out of residency (or at all most in most reasonable locales), especially with the death of fee-for-service looming. Most salary surveys peg spine in the $700-800k range, and that's usually mid-career. And they got rid of billing by level, so that caused a BIG hit on spine's reimbursement.

That said, they still make a good amount. A starting offer in the $300-400k range will still allow you to throw six figures/year at loan repayment while still living a better life than you did as a resident.
 
O Grady said:
Yep, that what docs want is a larger, and more inefficient government middle-man between us and our jobs/education. Also, take a basic economics course. Trying to exclusively tax the rich never works, it always finds it's way back to affecting the middle and lower class. Not to mention, the word "free" should never be used in any sort of real discussion
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You need to read Keynes and lay off the pipe
 
PL198 said:
details
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F-22 and F-35 both are failed projects that failed to deliver usable planes cost around 1.5 trillion each.

They failed so hard that the Air Force killed the projects rather than see them through.

Also, Congress just forced the US Army to buy and retrofit a bunch of tanks they don't need, to the tune of several billion dollars. The Army basically pleaded Congress not to force them to buy/retrofit these tanks, but obviously that didn't help.
 
Slack3r said:
I don't think it's reasonable to expect $1mil directly out of residency (or at all most in most reasonable locales), especially with the death of fee-for-service looming. Most salary surveys peg spine in the $700-800k range, and that's usually mid-career. And they got rid of billing by level, so that caused a BIG hit on spine's reimbursement.

That said, they still make a good amount. A starting offer in the $300-400k range will still allow you to throw six figures/year at loan repayment while still living a better life than you did as a resident.
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First off I'm not a spine surgeon. But I have worked with spine and neurosurgeons. All made close to 1-1.5 million/year. One of which was less than 5 years out, had a brand new Ferrari and 2 million dollar house. Even their PAs made over 200K/year.

The payments for physicians on the coasts are generally terrible (Cali, DC through Boston) but for the rest of the country I have a hard time believing that any spine surgeon or neurosurgeon is working for 300K outside of academics. My specialty with half the training pays more than that in parts of the country.

You mention salary surveys. This is a very heterogenous representation. It includes academics, poor paying areas of the country, and often excludes higher paying physicians that are too busy working to fill out a dumb survey.

DrBodacious said:
As someone alluded to, there is enough competition in spine, that I doubt anyone would walk in to & 1M/yr out of residency. I don't know what at neurosurgeons make in employed positions.

Also - You actually have to use post tax dollars to build a practice. Equipment purchases are all capitalized as assists and then depreciated. Say you want to invest in an office building, or surgery center, for example (you should).

"Residency lifestyle"... If you are single, this is easier to continue. If If you are married, maybe with kids kids, it is already way past due for an upgrade after finishing a 7year residency. Buying a reasonable car. House payment. Nanny + Nanny tax. Housekeeper. Lawn guy. Good life and disability insurance. You can't be a neurosurgeon (read work 80+ hrs a week) without those things.
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The way medicine is going it is hard for me to believe anyone is opening their own practice straight out of residency. It's hard enough for small groups to handle the increasing amount of administration let alone a single physician. The vast majority of graduating residents in 2015 will take a job with established group.
 
link2swim06 said:
First off I'm not a spine surgeon. But I have worked with spine and neurosurgeons. All made close to 1-1.5 million/year. One of which was less than 5 years out, had a brand new Ferrari and 2 million dollar house. Even their PAs made over 200K/year.

The payments for physicians on the coasts are generally terrible (Cali, DC through Boston) but for the rest of the country I have a hard time believing that any spine surgeon or neurosurgeon is working for 300K outside of academics. My specialty with half the training pays more than that in parts of the country.

You mention salary surveys. This is a very heterogenous representation. It includes academics, poor paying areas of the country, and often excludes higher paying physicians that are too busy working to fill out a dumb survey.



The way medicine is going it is hard for me to believe anyone is opening their own practice straight out of residency. It's hard enough for small groups to handle the increasing amount of administration let alone a single physician. The vast majority of graduating residents in 2015 will take a job with established group.
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I did. I would highly recommend it.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Classic example of delayed gratification combined with terrible financial sense. Bet he's out the wazoo in debt.

I know a CT practice that strongly encourages all the new partners to buy a ferrari (apparently all the seniors are super big car guys). So you take someone with 6 figures of debt and a decade of training with no significant pay-down on that debt. And then you add another 6 figure debt to it in the form of a car. Brilliant.
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vested interest in the dealership or what? I'm pretty sure if you getting a job turns into a frat with the requirement of buying a ferari, while you're a physician, then that's probably a good time to walk away from that particular offer. Sounds like a bunch of frat bros reliving the golden days. if they were car guys, they'd want the person to have an awesome car, not just a ferrari. those dudes just sound like douches
 
charmiedermie said:
How do u have 400k? Is tuition that high or are u taking loans on everything?
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Imagine 80k coa with 7-8% compounding interest every year during medical school and residency. Add in undergraduate debt and the next generation of docs will have 500k+ loans at the end of residency and fellowship..
 
ScrubsMD said:
Imagine 80k coa with 7-8% compounding interest every year during medical school and residency. Add in undergraduate debt and the next generation of docs will have 500k+ loans at the end of residency and fellowship..
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Again, student loans don't compound every year. Read your terms. They will often capitalize when you graduate med school but the federal loans never 'compound' like credit card debt.
 
link2swim06 said:
Again, student loans don't compound every year. Read your terms. They will often capitalize when you graduate med school but the federal loans never 'compound' like credit card debt.
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Okay. So you won't be paying interest on compounding interest, but that will still be building off of your base, which is a lot of money! W/o subsidized grad loans anymore and 5% yearly tuition increases you are looking at an insane amount of $$$.

Never the less, 400-500k is a reality for those who have to borrow for everything, have a longer residency, and have medium undergraduate debt.

On top of all of this there seems to be no roof to tuition increases. Just look at some dental schools with coas over 100k!!!! 😱
 
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