Another distinction (This one's important)

[ih8biochem]

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This is my first post and I?ve been pretty familiar with the DO/MD wars going on here. Don?t get me wrong, I?m applying to both MD and DO schools (I worked my ass off at a surgeon?s office to earn a solid letter from a DO so I have no prejudice against the practice). But to all the DO?s who are entering residency, why do you feel as though you need to apply for allopathic ones? An MD, who?s opinion I trust, said that the growth of their schools do not allow enough positions for residency training. The schools charge a bit more that their allopathic counterparts so they still do alright. But this forces DO?s to go thorough the MD match. Here?s where I think it?s dangerous to assume MD = DO. MD?s are not allowed in DO residencies and a lot of them feel the opposite should also be true. (I?ve heard) some MD attendings are adamantly against allowing DO?s into their program (particularly Derm). So here?s my question: are DO residencies more competitive than MD ones? If not, than again; why do DO?s feel as though they need to apply for allopathic ones, where they most certainly must come out of that MD = DO mindset and face the truth that they are going to be prejudiced against? I bet at that moment, they may have wished they gone to an MD school. Who here besides me sees a lose/lose situation?

 

[Amy B]

Oh no, a DO verses MD thread. Quick, close that can of worms.

I haven't heard of DO being ademently discouraged from residencies, but maybe I haven't read enough about that. And perhaps some DOs get MD residencies because there wasn't a DO one in the city where they wanted to live or maybe it was already full and not taking any more applicants. Lots of things may come into play.

As to wishing you were an MD rather than a DO, if they are thinking that after training hard for 4 years and being called doctor, then perhaps they never wanted to be a DO in the first place. I surely can't envision myself getting done and wishing I had done someting else. My family doc was a DO and all his patients and the community held him in the highest regard. You are what you make of yourself. If you are a caring and compassionate doctor NOBODY is going to care what initals follow your name.

Maybe this doesn't answer your post, but this is what I thought about after reading it. Oh, if you could please put in paragraphs to break up your sentences a bit, that would make it easier to read. Older eyes here😛

 

[DireWolf]

There is a very simple reason why DOs go into MD residencies: Most DO residencies are a joke. Not all of them. But the majority of them cannot even come close to comparison with MD residencies when it comes to funding, research, number/quality of attendings, didactics, adequate case loads, variety of cases, board prep, etc. DO residencies are notorious for closing- who wants to have their program close down when they're a PGY-3? Also, the number of DO specialty residencies is very, very small. There are hardly any residency spots in the popular specialties like derm, ophtho, rads, etc. So that forces DO applicants to look elsewhere.

To answer your other question- most DO residencies are not that competitive at all, and many go unfilled. However, the popular specialties like derm, rads, etc. are very hard to get into as you might expect.

 

[sophiejane]

Let's keep in mind that DOs have only been around for about 100 years. It takes time to build a profession. THere have been many challenges along the way, particularly from the AMA, that have caused residency programs and osteopthic hospitals to be smaller in number (mainly because there are smaller numbers of schools and students and money, but this is to be expected at the beginning of anything. And yes, 100 years is still "beginning" in my opinon).

Do some research on the history of osteopathy. Learn about what the AMA has done to resist it fsince the beginning. I think that will help you understand why there are fewer DO residency slots and why DOs are less than willling to allow MDs into their programs.

On the other hand, I just read in my state's AMA journal that there is a big push to open more residency spots to address the decline in the number of physicians in the US. Some would argue that it is not a number problem, but a distribution problem--many docs prefer to practice in the city or where they can make more money.

DOs, on the other hand, have historically chosen to serve the underserved and rural communities and often fill the need for primary care physicians in underserved communities--rural or urban.

 

[DireWolf]

Originally posted by sophiejane
Do some research on the history of osteopathy. Learn about what the AMA has done to resist it fsince the beginning. I think that will help you understand why there are fewer DO residency slots and why DOs are less than willling to allow MDs into their programs.

While this is certainly true, the bigger issue here is the incompetency of the AOA. The AOA is one of most poorly run organizations in the country. They don't give a damn about their students or graduates and are more interested in making sure all the DO schools make money. This is no secret- all of the private DO schools have one thing in mind- money. Why not collect the outrageous tuition money and let the students fend for themselves when it comes to residency training? They should sink this money into funding new and better residency training positions. Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever happen. The AOA is lucky that the AMA hasn't decided to ban DO students from entering allopathic residencies. Then they'd really be screwed.

 

[Blue_guitar9]

allopathic and osteopathic residencies are funded by the government, what happens is that the government alots way more spaces in the ACMGE residencies than can be filled by US-MD's alone. Why do they do this? because its cheap labor, we will work 80/hrs a wk for less than minnimum wage. in fact the medical system they set up is so dependent on DO's and IMG's to fill the remaining spots that the they would be lossing money if we didnt let them practice with us. So I doubt that the AMA will be banning DO's anytime soon. Also if they did the funding the government is giving to the ACMGE would go to the AOA so they could create the nessicary residencies they would then need, probably not such a bad deal for them. I agree though that there are some sub-par DO residencies but there are also some sub-par MD residencies that i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.

 

[DireWolf]

I stand corrected. It is the ACGME that would decide this issue. No argument with the sub-par allopathic residencies. I just think the proportion of sub-par residencies is much higher in osteopathic programs.

 

[Tbonez]

The simple fact that DO's can do MD residencies but the opposite not be true is fundamentally wrong. The AOA holds on the OMM/OMT reasoning like a bloody arm hanging by a tendon after a car wreck. The fact is, when you promote interdisciplinary movement in only one direction, you set the scene for resentment, bias and disfavor from DO to MD residency. This is analagous to the minority situation in this country. There can be a black Miss America, a black month, a black Congressional caucus, etc. Other minority groups are similar. However, what is the last time you saw a white girl in a Miss black America paegeant? Silly huh? Ok, but a black girl won Miss America this year. So who's going to win Miss white America? What? No Miss white America? Why? Cuz that would be racist? Not any more so that the afore mentioned. Now there will be some that will say, the segregated black events are positive, while historical context would stipulate automatically that any white segregation could only be negative. I respectfully disagree. Black segregation, even by blacks, is insulting to white people, and only promotes racial divide. Either make everything open to everyone, or have separate groups for EVERYONE. Now back to medical residencies. MD's either should only allow MD's in their residencies, and the same for DO's, or everyone needs to be able to bounce back and forth. When was the last time you heard of an anesthesiologist in a DO residency using OMM/OMT? Do away with the one way residencies, or you can forget about ever having equal respect from all for all.

 

[ih8biochem]

Amy B: No, I don?t want to start another war here. I, as much as you, wish there wasn?t one to begin with. This is not an attack on DO schools and I?m not referring to DO vs. MD in practice. I know the disparity is less then. Keep in mind that my primary source of exposure to the medical field has been through working in a DO?s office. I really could care less what letters come after my name.

What I do care about, though, it becoming a doctor. I?ll go to whatever medical school takes me if I thought it wasn?t going to affect my chances in entering residencies. I feel as though medical training comes secondary to residency training but it looks as though the AOA believes otherwise. It?s tragic to imagine a marginalized group of displaced doctors, who, only because of the letters behind their name, are not able to complete their training in the field of their choice.

Perhaps the main reason why more DO?s enter primary care is because they aren?t competitive enough in allo residencies. Or, fundamentally, that?s what they?ve always wanted to do. If that?s not what folks want, then I?m just saying, it?s not fair for premeds to be advised that MD = DO.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by ih8biochem
It?s tragic to imagine a marginalized group of displaced doctors, who, only because of the letters behind their name, are not able to complete their training in the field of their choice.

You paint the picture way more tragically than it is. If you work hard enough, you can be what you want as a DO.

More DO students go primary care probably because that is what they wanted to do and maybe chose to go to a DO school because of that.

After all, in DO school mission statements, most allude to a goal of producing primary care physicians. As such, it would only be natural that a majority of DOs enter into primary care.

 

[Amy B]

I have to agree with slickness, I do believe a whole lot of DOs do go into primary care. That is the main reason I have chosen to attend VCOM. They are promising to have lots of primary care education built into their classes, rotations and interests.

Since I do not know about the residency issues I can't comment. Is there a web site that lists all the DO residencies and how many are filled, how many go unfilled and how many DOs apply for and get MD residencies. I don't know if those stats are anywhere on the web. I looked but couldn't find anything that really pertained to answering those questions.

How many DOs per year don't get a residency? Does that happen frequently? Again I have no idea the answers. Does anyone know where we could read up on these questions?

ih8biochem - So, how do you really feel about bio chem? 😎 😀

 

[MeowMix]

the DO I did most of my shadowing with specifically recommended an MD program if I wanted to do ob/gyn; he felt that the residency opportunities for the DO programs were severely limited (except for the military, which is not an option for me).

 

[DireWolf]

Originally posted by Amy B
I have to agree with slickness, I do believe a whole lot of DOs do go into primary care. That is the main reason I have chosen to attend VCOM. They are promising to have lots of primary care education built into their classes, rotations and interests.

Since I do not know about the residency issues I can't comment. Is there a web site that lists all the DO residencies and how many are filled, how many go unfilled and how many DOs apply for and get MD residencies. I don't know if those stats are anywhere on the web. I looked but couldn't find anything that really pertained to answering those questions.

How many DOs per year don't get a residency? Does that happen frequently? Again I have no idea the answers. Does anyone know where we could read up on these questions?

ih8biochem - So, how do you really feel about bio chem? 😎 😀

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