Another JD-to-MD thread

[LawtoMD]

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I posted this in the post-bacc forum was directed here, so I thought I would ask you all the same questions I put forward there (and maybe more coherently).

I'm about to start my second year of law school at a highly regarded school (one of CCN). I'm inside the top 10% of my class. Although we have not yet done our on-campus interviews, I am confident that I will be able to secure a highly paying and "prestigious" law firm position. Just want to make clear that this isn't a choice based on money or prestige; many law students and law grads are suffering, but I'm fortunate enough that I could have both in law (though they've never been my goals). However, I've become increasingly disillusioned with law and legal practice and turned my thoughts back toward medicine.

I've always been a science person, having gone to a science-intensive high school, but I abandoned that in college (rebellious phase, I guess? Wanted exposure to the humanities). I never took a science or math course in college because I had AP science and math credits coming out of my ears upon arrival at college. I chose law school because it offered a strong analytical outlet while also meshing with my humanities (History/Philosophy double major) background. I've enjoyed law school itself immensely, but I've become increasingly aware that I will not be happy in law practice due to the sense that I won't be contributing to anything positive. Additionally, I sorely miss science.

I'm currently strongly considering the possibility of enrolling in a post-bacc program at some point. I would probably want to work as a lawyer to pay off my law school debt for a few years after law school. However, I don't know how to express my interest in medicine or to plan for eventually attending a post-bacc program. I also have the vague sense that it might be too late--I may have missed the boat in medicine by going to law school, and there's no real way for me to go back. I feel like I'll either be too old or appear to be a degree collector or uninterested in medicine.

Thoughts and recommendations?

(Numbers, as far they matter for post-bacc: 3.8 undergrad GPA from a T50 undergrad, SAT of 1530 [or 2320 w/ Writing].)

Edit: Also, side question--I see a lot about volunteering at a hospital or shadowing a physician. How does one go about finding a volunteer position like that? It seems like something I could on the side while in law school, but I don't have the faintest idea who to ask about it.

 

[TriagePreMed]

If you want to volunteer, it's as easy as googling "volunteer (Zip Code)" and get a listing of the many things.

Why do you want to even go into medicine? What do you know about medicine? You say you love science. How's that the specific profession of medicine? How can you know you'll be miserable in something you haven't tried (practicing law)? If you want to do something positive in law, why not non-profit?

I feel that you really don't know what you're getting yourself into and are pretty much lying to yourself when you say prestige and money don't play into it.

 

[Reggie V]

Hey LawtoMD,

I'm a lawyer turned medical student. Let me start off by saying that you haven't missed any boat and you are definitely not too old. Obviously, I don't know your age, but I started med school at age 31 and there are many others on this site who started in their late 20s, 30s, and even 40s and 50s.

That being said, your biggest issue (and please understand that I'm not trying to be insulting) is that you may be throwing away a career that you will really enjoy. You have only completed one year of law school and you said yourself that you enjoyed it immensely. At this stage in your career, you can't possibly be disillusioned with the legal practice, as you have no experience as an attorney. There are many areas of law that do make positive contributions, which you will see the more you explore various fields and the further into school you go. I think if you are focusing on the "prestigious" firms you may be limiting your exposure to other areas of law that may be more personally satisfying.

I think your plan of finishing law school and then considering medicine is a very good idea. It will not be too late and the degree collecting concerns are really minor issues.

Good luck

 

[LawtoMD]

Hey LawtoMD,

I'm a lawyer turned medical student. Let me start off by saying that you haven't missed any boat and you are definitely not too old. Obviously, I don't know your age, but I started med school at age 31 and there are many others on this site who started in their late 20s, 30s, and even 40s and 50s.

That being said, your biggest issue (and please understand that I'm not trying to be insulting) is that you may be throwing away a career that you will really enjoy. You have only completed one year of law school and you said yourself that you enjoyed it immensely. At this stage in your career, you can't possibly be disillusioned with the legal practice, as you have no experience as an attorney. There are many areas of law that do make positive contributions, which you will see the more you explore various fields and the further into school you go. I think if you are focusing on the "prestigious" firms you may be limiting your exposure to other areas of law that may be more personally satisfying.

I think your plan of finishing law school and then considering medicine is a very good idea. It will not be too late and the degree collecting concerns are really minor issues.

Good luck

Thanks 🙂

For a little more background, I just finished a summer internship at a public interest organization. I only found myself interested in the client interaction itself. I couldn't feel motivated about preparing briefs. I didn't have a chance to speak in court except as an advocate, but it wasn't something was excited about or felt myself doing for a lifetime.

Even before I came to law school, I knew I was a transactional person, not a litigator. I'm great at one-on-one interaction, but I'm a terrible public speaker and presenter. That closes a lot of doors to litigation opportunities in public interest, which is almost entirely litigation-focused. I do have some hopes for being able to do non-profit advising and transactional work for non-profits, but that's a miniscule field that I don't have high hopes of breaking into.

I think my main problem was that I didn't consider just how strongly transactional practice was geared towards business before going to law school. Additionally, I won't deny that I would like to make a reasonable salary--I'm not looking to have a biglaw partner-level salary, but I'd hope to make six figures at some point in my career, although it's not necessary immediately. (My point in the OP about money was more that the money is available to me to take, so medicine is not running away from poor job prospects/low income; maybe it was poorly worded or unclear.)

Also, maybe most importantly, what disconcerts me about law is that I have all of this enthusiasm for scientific inquiry and application that's going to waste as a lawyer. There are some legal fields, like tax, that have science-like attributes, but they have minimal client interaction and are mostly oriented towards corporations. And there's patent, but it suffers from the same lack of direct human contact (and I'd have to do many of the same prerequisites as for medicine anyway and would have to do some other type of law first to have any chance at getting hired after completing some sort of science masters).

True, medicine isn't the only science-based field, but I find that it combines my passion for working with individuals (as opposed to in a research lab, which would be isolating) with my passion for science in a way that's pretty unique. I don't think there are any pre-med students who have a much stronger motivation than that.

 

[gman33]

If you are going to finish law school, I'd say to give yourself at least 5 years in practice before even thinking about med school. You need to time to find your place in law before you can make a decision about whether or not it is a good fit for you. You will still have your whole life to pursue medicine if you want to go down that road.

Now if you already made up your mind that it's not right for you, I'm not sure that it's worth while spending 2 more years and a bunch of money on something you already plan to get out of.

Many will tell you to finish the degree because it looks bad to quit. There is some truth to that notion.

I'd mainly tell you to finish and give it some time before you jump ship to medicine. I'm sure you will find plenty of things that you don't like in medicine as well should you go down that path.

 

[Reggie V]

Thanks 🙂

For a little more background, I just finished a summer internship at a public interest organization. I only found myself interested in the client interaction itself. I couldn't feel motivated about preparing briefs. I didn't have a chance to speak in court except as an advocate, but it wasn't something was excited about or felt myself doing for a lifetime.

Even before I came to law school, I knew I was a transactional person, not a litigator. I'm great at one-on-one interaction, but I'm a terrible public speaker and presenter. That closes a lot of doors to litigation opportunities in public interest, which is almost entirely litigation-focused. I do have some hopes for being able to do non-profit advising and transactional work for non-profits, but that's a miniscule field that I don't have high hopes of breaking into.

I think my main problem was that I didn't consider just how strongly transactional practice was geared towards business before going to law school. Additionally, I won't deny that I would like to make a reasonable salary--I'm not looking to have a biglaw partner-level salary, but I'd hope to make six figures at some point in my career, although it's not necessary immediately. (My point in the OP about money was more that the money is available to me to take, so medicine is not running away from poor job prospects/low income; maybe it was poorly worded or unclear.)

Also, maybe most importantly, what disconcerts me about law is that I have all of this enthusiasm for scientific inquiry and application that's going to waste as a lawyer. There are some legal fields, like tax, that have science-like attributes, but they have minimal client interaction and are mostly oriented towards corporations. And there's patent, but it suffers from the same lack of direct human contact (and I'd have to do many of the same prerequisites as for medicine anyway and would have to do some other type of law first to have any chance at getting hired after completing some sort of science masters).

True, medicine isn't the only science-based field, but I find that it combines my passion for working with individuals (as opposed to in a research lab, which would be isolating) with my passion for science in a way that's pretty unique. I don't think there are any pre-med students who have a much stronger motivation than that.

Ultimately, I think the most important driving force should be finding something that you are passionate about. My only point is that it may be difficult at this point in your legal career to know for certain that you will not find your passion in law. However, you know yourself better than anyone else and that is a question only you can answer.

If you decide to pursue medicine, there is always the debate about whether to leave a graduate program or stick it out and then make the transition. I can see the merits of sticking it out, but personally I wouldn't be able to wait the 4+ years it would take before starting med school (2 more years of law school plus at least 2 years of post-bacc and interviewing). However, many others would (and have) waited it out, and perhaps ended up better off b/c of it.

One piece of advice, if you decide to drop out of law school it should not happen until after you have completed your second year. This is not because the second year is important, but rather because you need to spend at least 6+ months investigating the who, what, where, when, why and how's of transitioning into medicine. This includes talking with doctors and post-bacc programs; shadowing doctors; volunteering at hospitals; and anything else anyone recommends to help you determine if this is really what you want to do. You said that you really didn't understand the business emphasis of transactional law before you started law school. Well, you will be in store for a world of hurt if you make the same mistake in medicine - the path is a lot longer, more expensive and more difficult than law.

 

[Legally Insane]

Just a quick note to respond to your concern as to whether it will be too late to go to medical school once you have started practicing law. I started my first year of medical school last week after practicing law for over 26 years. There is no cutoff or expiration date. Ideally, life is long. Fill it with as many meaningful experiences as you can.

 

[Law2Doc]

OP, I see nothing in your posts that suggests to me why become a doctor. Don't focus on the "I love science, and lawyers don't contribute" arguments. You have to know what doctors actually do for a living ( it's rarely science), and not be fleeing the short comings of another field. At this juncture, your best bet is to do shadowing and volunteering on the side and figure out if doctor is really what you want to be and why. Forget about postbac for now -- you have to decide you want to be a doctor before you launch in that direction, otherwise you look and are flighty. After a year or so of volunteering and shadowing, see if you still want to be a doctor and why. Based on what you've said so far, you have no clue yet. Sorry to be harsh, but your post is very common, and pretty much every post that starts out as i am coming from a top law school and not caring about the money is from someone who just is unhappy about law prospects and looking for another "professional" out.

 

[TriagePreMed]

OP, I see nothing in your posts that suggests to me why become a doctor. Don't focus on the "I love science, and lawyers don't contribute" arguments. You have to know what doctors actually do for a living ( it's rarely science), and not be fleeing the short comings of another field. At this juncture, your best bet is to do shadowing and volunteering on the side and figure out if doctor is really what you want to be and why. Forget about postbac for now -- you have to decide you want to be a doctor before you launch in that direction, otherwise you look and are flighty. After a year or so of volunteering and shadowing, see if you still want to be a doctor and why. Based on what you've said so far, you have no clue yet. Sorry to be harsh, but your post is very common, and pretty much every post that starts out as i am coming from a top law school and not caring about the money is from someone who just is unhappy about law prospects and looking for another "professional" out.

I got that feeling too where the OP really has no idea what it entails to be a doctor. I really didn't like how he signed off by saying that the motivation of all pre-meds is equal to his: like science + work with people. While I think those are necessary components, it ignores life experiences completely.

The OP in this case went into professional school not knowing what he was getting into. Now he's making the mistake of wanting to jump into medicine by doing the same. I think it would be in the best interest of the OP to see clearly that's happening and could end up in the same place. The OP has no clear reason to say not going into nursing, PA school, Optometry, or even research that in some sciences where you work with people, or to work in a field like environmental science by visiting communities and creating strategies to help people.

I also think the OP probably doesn't understand what science is academically (not saying incapable of learning it). Having gone to a high school that had science doesn't prepare you or immerse you enough to understand college science. Even then, I feel that med schools are going about it the wrong way by not asking students to take Anatomy or Physiology since these sciences are different than General Bio, Chem, or Physics.

In any case, the OP needs to do a lot more before making the mistake of jumping ship from the law profession only because they didn't like their summer internship.

 

[yankswin2011]

Well, with respect to quitting law school: there is one glaring problem for you -- if you're borrowing loans for law school and intend to go to medical school (also borrowing loans), you need to make a decision quick because it doesn't make financial sense to borrow up to 7 (!) years of professional education (plus 2 years for post-bac courses) -- that is crazy because you are looking at $400K-600K in loans (excluding interest) -- don't count on the IBR -- it's not a free lunch -- at the end of the "forgiveness" -- it is taxed as income -- the Feds ain't getting short-changed -- people need to read the fine print -- plus given the state of our Trillion dollar debt crisis -- it may not be around 10-25 years from now. Given the sky-rocketing costs of professional education, quitting law school while you are financial ahead is a very legitimate reason.

So while age might not be a factor -- you're drowning in debt that you will never recover from -- that is a serious factor.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, with respect to quitting law school: there is one glaring problem for you -- if you're borrowing loans for law school and intend to go to medical school (also borrowing loans), you need to make a decision quick because it doesn't make financial sense to borrow up to 7 (!) years of professional education (plus 2 years for post-bac courses) -- that is crazy because you are looking at $400K-600K in loans (excluding interest) -- don't count on the IBR -- it's not a free lunch -- at the end of the "forgiveness" -- it is taxed as income -- the Feds ain't getting short-changed -- people need to read the fine print -- plus given the state of our Trillion dollar debt crisis -- it may not be around 10-25 years from now. Given the sky-rocketing costs of professional education, quitting law school while you are financial ahead is a very legitimate reason.

So while age might not be a factor -- you're drowning in debt that you will never recover from -- that is a serious factor.

Well, that isn't a good reason to go to med school. You need to separate the issues. If you don't foresee ever wanting a law degree, then sure, you can cut your losses. But that shouldn't dovetail into going to med school. You still need to spend substantial time shadowing and volunteering because honestly your love of science and wanting to "contribute" is too half baked a reason to start down the premed path. Keep the questions separate. Folks who just want to feel like they are moving toward a target without spending the time to decide if the target is where they actually want to end up are usually pretty miserable.

 

[LawtoMD]

Well, with respect to quitting law school: there is one glaring problem for you -- if you're borrowing loans for law school and intend to go to medical school (also borrowing loans), you need to make a decision quick because it doesn't make financial sense to borrow up to 7 (!) years of professional education (plus 2 years for post-bac courses) -- that is crazy because you are looking at $400K-600K in loans (excluding interest) -- don't count on the IBR -- it's not a free lunch -- at the end of the "forgiveness" -- it is taxed as income -- the Feds ain't getting short-changed -- people need to read the fine print -- plus given the state of our Trillion dollar debt crisis -- it may not be around 10-25 years from now. Given the sky-rocketing costs of professional education, quitting law school while you are financial ahead is a very legitimate reason.

So while age might not be a factor -- you're drowning in debt that you will never recover from -- that is a serious factor.

FWIW, I'm not drowning in debt. I'm on a half-scholarship in law school, and I had a full scholarship for undergrad. Combined with paying some of my costs upfront in law school, I'll have about $60k in loans on graduation from law school (just the Staffords), which isn't that much. But I'd like to get that paid off (and some money saved up) before considering any more school anyway.

Anyway, thank you for the input, everyone (even the bitter guy with the cat avatar). I understand that this isn't a decision to be made lightly and will be doing significant volunteer work before making a choice. Oh, and finishing law school and practicing for at least a little while, which was always what I was going to do anyway.

 

[TriagePreMed]

FWIW, I'm not drowning in debt. I'm on a half-scholarship in law school, and I had a full scholarship for undergrad. Combined with paying some of my costs upfront in law school, I'll have about $60k in loans on graduation from law school (just the Staffords), which isn't that much. But I'd like to get that paid off (and some money saved up) before considering any more school anyway.

Anyway, thank you for the input, everyone (even the bitter guy with the cat avatar). I understand that this isn't a decision to be made lightly and will be doing significant volunteer work before making a choice. Oh, and finishing law school and practicing for at least a little while, which was always what I was going to do anyway.

I'm not bitter. It's your life. Your mistakes to make (again).

 

[yankswin2011]

But I'd like to get that paid off (and some money saved up) before considering any more school anyway.

If you're going to get one of those "Big Law" jobs -- you'll be working a lot of hours (including weekends) as a junior associate -- you won't have time to study for your pre-reqs and MCATs or volunteer -- unless you're superman -- it's fairly difficult to do. Plus, your hours will be fairly intense hours so by the time you get off work, you'll likely be so tired you won't have the energy to study.

 

[yankswin2011]

Well, that isn't a good reason to go to med school. You need to separate the issues. If you don't foresee ever wanting a law degree, then sure, you can cut your losses. But that shouldn't dovetail into going to med school. You still need to spend substantial time shadowing and volunteering because honestly your love of science and wanting to "contribute" is too half baked a reason to start down the premed path. Keep the questions separate. Folks who just want to feel like they are moving toward a target without spending the time to decide if the target is where they actually want to end up are usually pretty miserable.

Good point Law2Doc -- you're always on-point. Thanks.

 

[kidthor]

I agree with the previous sentiments - you need to at least shadow before deciding that this is what you really want to do (and volunteer I suppose, but shadowing will give you a better idea of what's involved). That, and I wouldn't recommend dropping out of law school, since you could possibly end up both a med school reject AND a law school dropout. You might be able to squeeze in some postbac classes while in law school, and your law school might allow you to count these toward your law degree. My law school let me count two non-law classes for law school credit...

If it makes any difference - I took a year of organic chem, a semester of biochem, a semester of immunology, and them MCAT all while in law school. Also, I squeezed in some volunteering and shadowing. I did all of the "expected" law school things too, like journal, summering at a firm, etc. I mention all of this to say that it's all possible, especially if your law school is supportive. It will be VERY difficult though to juggle everything, and you won't be having the same fun as the other law students!

I know exactly what you're saying with regard to the downsides of law (especially biglaw firm practice). It seemed that all too many of my classmates had lofty public interest aspirations, but nearly all of them went into big firm practice. There's plenty of room for a new lawyer to do good for the world and relate directly with people. But, it's just not the easy, high-paying, golden-handcuffed route that all too many people pick.

My number one suggestion still though, is to start shadowing someone right now. See for yourself if this is what you really want to do.

Also, I've got a book suggestion: Leaving Microsoft to Change the World: An Entrepreneur's Odyssey to Educate the World's Children. The author talks about his changed priorities, and how he used his corporate skillset for good. It might give you insight on your own priorities, and convince you to morph a legal skillset into something philanthropic... rather than going full steam into medicine.

 

[Phoenix.]

I think you've got a great plan. I would start volunteering ASAP in a local free health clinic, or a local hospital. You can get a better sense of whether medicine is the right path for you, and start setting up a solid foundation for demonstrating that to others when/if the time comes to apply to medical school.

Great idea to finish law school and work for a few years to confirm that law is the wrong path, and to pay off your debt. A lot can happen in the interim, and it's always possible you might fall into some area of law you find more satisfying, or life in general may intervene. But if you keep a finger in health care, and consistently find it speaks more to you than law, then I say go for it.

As for me, when I made the decision to switch from law to medicine, I was practicing at a great firm (I did the big NYC law firm stint first, but at that time was working at a great firm in Chicago that was a little more lifestyle-oriented). I immediately started volunteering from 6-9pm after work one day a week in June 2005, and signed up for a Saturday post-bac Chem 101 class to test the waters in January 2006. By the end of that first year I was convinced I was on the right path, and quit my job to get all of my pre-reqs in in one year in June 2006. Then I worked as an attorney for one last year while I applied to medical school, and started medical school at my dream school in July 2008 in my 30s. Worked out great for me, and I don't see why it can't work for you too if that's what your heart is set on.

One thing I've learned is that you really can't appreciate law or medicine until you're actually practicing or working in the field. As I'm sure you've realized, studying is one thing; practicing law or medicine day to day is a completely different reality. Everyone I know who worked in a law firm for a summer during college or spent time as a paralegal changed their mind and decided not to go to law school. Sometimes I think it'd be a great idea if law schools expected to see sufficient exposure to the field too before accepting applicants. While volunteering in medicine won't give you a definite answer whether being a physician is the right choice for you, you will be able to make a much more educated decision. Good luck!

 

[drgioiadds]

I think you've got a great plan. I would start volunteering ASAP in a local free health clinic, or a local hospital. You can get a better sense of whether medicine is the right path for you, and start setting up a solid foundation for demonstrating that to others when/if the time comes to apply to medical school.

Great idea to finish law school and work for a few years to confirm that law is the wrong path, and to pay off your debt. A lot can happen in the interim, and it's always possible you might fall into some area of law you find more satisfying, or life in general may intervene. But if you keep a finger in health care, and consistently find it speaks more to you than law, then I say go for it.

As for me, when I made the decision to switch from law to medicine, I was practicing at a great firm (I did the big NYC law firm stint first, but at that time was working at a great firm in Chicago that was a little more lifestyle-oriented). I immediately started volunteering from 6-9pm after work one day a week in June 2005, and signed up for a Saturday post-bac Chem 101 class to test the waters in January 2006. By the end of that first year I was convinced I was on the right path, and quit my job to get all of my pre-reqs in in one year in June 2006. Then I worked as an attorney for one last year while I applied to medical school, and started medical school at my dream school in July 2008 in my 30s. Worked out great for me, and I don't see why it can't work for you too if that's what your heart is set on.

One thing I've learned is that you really can't appreciate law or medicine until you're actually practicing or working in the field. As I'm sure you've realized, studying is one thing; practicing law or medicine day to day is a completely different reality. Everyone I know who worked in a law firm for a summer during college or spent time as a paralegal changed their mind and decided not to go to law school. Sometimes I think it'd be a great idea if law schools expected to see sufficient exposure to the field too before accepting applicants. While volunteering in medicine won't give you a definite answer whether being a physician is the right choice for you, you will be able to make a much more educated decision. Good luck!

Great post! I'm currently a DDS of 10 years hoping to transition to DO school next summer. I'll be in my mid 30's and don't feel like its too late.