Another Lawyer - Seeking MD

[AnotherLawyer]

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Greetings,

Here is some info about me: I have a 3.8 undergraduate GPA (4.0 post-freshman year). No hard science coursework, but about 30 credit hours in math, with a 4.0 GPA. I've started my DIY post-bac, completing two prereqs with a 4.0. I'm a graduate of a top 10 law school. I'm currently in the military as a Judge Advocate.

I only take classes on Saturdays, because my weekday evenings are too unpredictable. I also have a wife and kids who are supportive. This is manageable so I'm not complaining. I do some volunteer work within the legal profession and some through my church. My concern, however, is obtaining enough clinical experience with the limited time I have available. So my question is how much is enough? I essentially have one free day a week (Sunday afternoon/evening), and while I could spend that day doing something in furtherance of my application, that would be a day I take away from my family so I would rather not do that unless absolutely necessary.

What I would like to do is spend two or three weeks of vacation shadowing. I suppose I could do anything during those weeks if anyone has ideas for short-term clinical opportunities. Also, I figure I would add that I volunteered as an EMT-B for about three years. But that was over a decade ago and my certification has long since lapsed, so I'm not sure that counts for much.

Sorry for the rambling post, but ultimately I'm asking how other people with similar situations have handled this issue. Also, I'm asking if anyone has talked to adcoms about this issue and gotten any feedback. I appreciate any advice you might have!

 

[gyngyn]

The clinical contact you have listed here would not pass screening at my school, especially for one with a work history as long as yours.
You need to demonstrate that you know what you are getting into (not just articulate it).

 

[AnotherLawyer]

Gyngyn,

I appreciate the feedback, especially given your first hand knowledge of the process. Could you give me a rough idea of what would meet the cut off? I'm sure the answer depends on multiple factors (nature of the clinical experience, background of applicant, etc.), but if you could give me a general answer, or even one tailored to the little info you know about me, I would be extremely grateful. I want to be as competetive an applicant as possible. But at the same time I don't want to greatly exceed what is required at the expense of my family and other obligations.

Thanks again!

 

[gyngyn]

Gyngyn,

I appreciate the feedback, especially given your first hand knowledge of the process. Could you give me a rough idea of what would meet the cut off? I'm sure the answer depends on multiple factors (nature of the clinical experience, background of applicant, etc.), but if you could give me a general answer, or even one tailored to the little info you know about me, I would be extremely grateful. I want to be as competetive an applicant as possible. But at the same time I don't want to greatly exceed what is required at the expense of my family and other obligations.

Thanks again!

A sufficient amount of experience (paid and/or volunteer) in a clinical setting is required. The number of hours will vary but duration of volunteerism is also important. 6 months of significant experience would be approaching acceptable.
As a career changer, the importance of this experience cannot be overemphasized.

The "time" as well as the timing is important. Your audience (rightly or wrongly) is likely to be a little more skeptical of motivations, so you must not skimp on this aspect of the application. If you submit an application as you start your clinical experience, there is the appearance of "box checking" that everyone finds repellent.

For you, military service will still be a big plus as long as you can show that you know what it really means to be of service to the acutely and chronically ill.

 

[Goro]

I have a family too and appreciate my quality time with them/. However, Medicine is a calling, like being a policeman or priest. There's a difference between doing what's convenient, and doing what's necessary. Being a doctor is a priveledge, not a right for smart people. If you want it, you have to earn it.

Four hrs per weekend for a year will yield 100 hrs, which is the avg I see in my applicants.

I essentially have one free day a week (Sunday afternoon/evening), and while I could spend that day doing something in furtherance of my application, that would be a day I take away from my family so I would rather not do that unless absolutely necessary.

EMT-B a decade ago doesn't count. I concur 100% with everything my learned colleague has written. You must demonstrate to us that you know what you're getting into and that you really like being around sick and injured people, especially to do so for the next 30+ years.

You will also need to articulate that your medical aspirations are golden, and that you're not merely fleeing a poor economic situation of being a lawyer in an hyper-glutted field.

What I would like to do is spend two or three weeks of vacation shadowing. I suppose I could do anything during those weeks if anyone has ideas for short-term clinical opportunities. Also, I figure I would add that I volunteered as an EMT-B for about three years. But that was over a decade ago and my certification has long since lapsed, so I'm not sure that counts for much.

 

[StBernardsRule]

4 hours per week for a year is 200 hours. Goro, do you usually see 100 or 200 hours on average?

 

[AnotherLawyer]

A sufficient amount of experience (paid and/or volunteer) in a clinical setting is required. The number of hours will vary but duration of volunteerism is also important. 6 months of significant experience would be approaching acceptable.
As a career changer, the importance of this experience cannot be overemphasized.

The "time" as well as the timing is important. Your audience (rightly or wrongly) is likely to be a little more skeptical of motivations, so you must not skimp on this aspect of the application. If you submit an application as you start your clinical experience, there is the appearance of "box checking" that everyone finds repellent.

For you, military service will still be a big plus as long as you can show that you know what it really means to be of service to the acutely and chronically ill.

Gyngyn, great info. Thank you.

Four hrs per weekend for a year will yield 100 hrs, which is the avg I see in my applicants.

Goro, thank you for your very specific response. I guess my question is, then, does it matter how these hours are obtained? Whatever the average is, say 100 hours, is it better to meet that average over a year rather than spending two 50 hour weeks full time with a doctor? I'm no fewer than three years from when I intend to apply. Thus, for example, I could spend two weeks a year for the next three years doing this. If having some clinical experience over an extended period is simply a nonnegotiable, I can live with that and adapt accordingly. Thanks again for your guidance.

 

[Goro]

Just to make sure, I have to comment that by your wording below it seems like you're unclear on the difference between shadowing (following doctors around to see what their days are like and to get an idea of what different doctors do (like ER vs Surgery vs Radiology) and clinical volunteering. The latter lets us know that you want to be around patients. Let's put it another way: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit without trying it on?

For shadowing, the avg seems to be 10-50 hrs for a non-trad, but patient contact experience should be > 100 hrs. If you can get it in one massive bolus, fine. Shadowing tends to be done in a bolus, but typically, volunteering is done over an extended period of time.

We've rejected people who've never set foot in a hospital, despite their very high GPAs and MCAT scores.


Goro, thank you for your very specific response. I guess my question is, then, does it matter how these hours are obtained? Whatever the average is, say 100 hours, is it better to meet that average over a year rather than spending two 50 hour weeks full time with a doctor? I'm no fewer than three years from when I intend to apply. Thus, for example, I could spend two weeks a year for the next three years doing this. If having some clinical experience over an extended period is simply a nonnegotiable, I can live with that and adapt accordingly. Thanks again for your guidance.[/QUOTE]

 

[QofQuimica]

We've rejected people who've never set foot in a hospital, despite their very high GPAs and MCAT scores.

As did we.

I have a family too and appreciate my quality time with them. However, Medicine is a calling, like being a policeman or priest. There's a difference between doing what's convenient, and doing what's necessary. Being a doctor is a priveledge, not a right for smart people. If you want it, you have to earn it.

Well put.

OP, why are you making the career change? I think it would help us advise you better if you explained your motivations, especially given that you don't appear to have any recent clinical experience.

As far as the schedule of volunteering goes, I've always felt that a few hours weekly for at least a year at an organization that is A) close to home, and B) important to you personally, trumps a medical mission or other "volunteer vacation" that is really more for your own benefit. A not insignificant number of applicants, even trads, have this kind of consistent part-time volunteering for a particular cause over several years or even decades. The reason why long-term volunteering impresses me more than a short burst of concentrated "volunteerism" is because past behavior is predictive of future behavior. If you know I've spent the last decade volunteering for SDN, including all through med school and residency, would you conclude that I'm more likely or less likely to continue to volunteer for SDN as an attending versus someone who just joined while applying to med school, even though I currently spend far fewer hours per week on SDN than do our most active premed members?

 

[Law2Doc]

... If you know I've spent the last decade volunteering for SDN, including all through med school and residency, would you conclude that I'm more likely or less likely to continue to volunteer for SDN as an attending versus someone who just joined while applying to med school, even though I currently spend far fewer hours per week on SDN than do our most active premed members?

Q, we all know you are saying "see ya, suckers" and leaving us the second they give you the keys to the faculty lounge, no need to rub it in. 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

Greetings,

Here is some info about me: I have a 3.8 undergraduate GPA (4.0 post-freshman year). No hard science coursework, but about 30 credit hours in math, with a 4.0 GPA. I've started my DIY post-bac, completing two prereqs with a 4.0. I'm a graduate of a top 10 law school. I'm currently in the military as a Judge Advocate.

I only take classes on Saturdays, because my weekday evenings are too unpredictable. I also have a wife and kids who are supportive. This is manageable so I'm not complaining. I do some volunteer work within the legal profession and some through my church. My concern, however, is obtaining enough clinical experience with the limited time I have available. So my question is how much is enough? I essentially have one free day a week (Sunday afternoon/evening), and while I could spend that day doing something in furtherance of my application, that would be a day I take away from my family so I would rather not do that unless absolutely necessary.

What I would like to do is spend two or three weeks of vacation shadowing. I suppose I could do anything during those weeks if anyone has ideas for short-term clinical opportunities. Also, I figure I would add that I volunteered as an EMT-B for about three years. But that was over a decade ago and my certification has long since lapsed, so I'm not sure that counts for much.

Sorry for the rambling post, but ultimately I'm asking how other people with similar situations have handled this issue. Also, I'm asking if anyone has talked to adcoms about this issue and gotten any feedback. I appreciate any advice you might have!

The nice thing about EDs is they run 24/7. If you don't want to give up family time during the day, find someplace you can go to for a few hours at night. ECs aren't optional. You will get some leeway as a member of the armed forces, but to make the jump from law to medicine they really want to know that you've looked before you leaped and really know what you are getting yourself into. It not a Try it and see if you like it kind of schooling/training. And you are going to need a good well thought out reason of why medicine, why not law, and it's hard to do that with only cursory exposure to medicine. Make sure you have articulable reasons which are drawing you to medicine, NOT reasons pushing you away from law. Medicine wants people who can demonstrate that they want to be doctors, not people who have good reasons to want not to be lawyers. That's what you need to sell, and it's hard to sell without showing that you have spent substantial time in a healthcare setting working with doctors and patients.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q, we all know you are saying "see ya, suckers" and leaving us the second they give you the keys to the faculty lounge, no need to rub it in. 😉

Heh. I don't think they even let assistant profs into the faculty lounge, let alone give them keys. There's this weird sign on the door....something to the effect of "abandon all hope ye who enter here?" 😱

 

[Goro]

My school doesn't even have a Faculty lounge!

Heh. I don't think they even let assistant profs into the faculty lounge, let alone give them keys. There's this weird sign on the door....something to the effect of "abandon all hope ye who enter here?" 😱

 

[QofQuimica]

My school doesn't even have a Faculty lounge!

All kidding aside, I don't think we do, either. I didn't get shown one on the dept. tour.