Another (*sigh*) "top 50 programs" thread

[neolynx]

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Obviously any ranking is an extremely subjective process, and probably not very reliable since nobody has actually trained / worked at more than a very small handful of institutions. Accordingly, any ranking is going to be prone to leaving out "hidden gems," as well as allowing the reputation of some institutions to sway judgement on the quality of the training. I still think it's helpful for residency applicants to have some idea of how well regarded programs are in the field.

Let me say at the outset I'm not interested in arguing with anybody about whether a program should be higher or lower. Here's what I did and how it came out; do with it what you will:

METHODS:
Reviewed results of Aunt Minnie "Minnies" awards semifinalists (about 20-25 annually) and finalists (2 annually) for best training program from 2002 to 2012. Assigned one point every time a program appeared on the semifinals list, and 5 points for every time a program appeared on the finals list. Data are summarized below, however I think it's more useful to think about "tiers" than numerical ranks. 44 total programs are listed.

LIMITATIONS:
1) Relies completely on the "Minnies Awards" process, which includes a qualifying round by a panel of radiologists, as well as a voting round by members of the Aunt Minnie community. Cannot rule out selection bias due to some regions or programs' "fans" being more active on the forum, or drumming up more support.
2) Does not discriminate a point from 2002 from a point from 2012. Some programs may have significantly improved over this time, and others may have derailed.

RESULTS: (Program, score, sorted high to low)

ELITE TIER
MIR: 41 (finals in 05,07,08,09,10,11)
UCSF: 36 (finals in 02,03,06,08,10)
Hopkins: 36 (finals in 02,03,04,05,12)
Mayo: 26 (finals in 04,06,11)
Duke: 21 (finals in 10,12)
Stanford: 20 (finals in 07,09)
MGH: 11
UPenn: 11

OUTSTANDING TIER
Thomas Jefferson: 9
U Washington: 9
UCSD: 9
Brigham: 8
Michigan: 7
Virgina: 6
Wake Forest: 6
Iowa: 6
USC-LA: 6

EXCELLENT TIER
Indiana: 4
NYU: 4
Pittsburgh: 4
UCLA: 4
MUSC
(South Carolina): 3
Oregon: 3

MADE SEMIFINALS TWICE:
Arizona, Brown, Chicago, Emory, Maryland, Medical College of Georgia, Mississippi, Wisconsin

MADE SEMIFINALS ONCE:
Boston Medical Center, Colorado, Dartmouth, Georgetown, Henry Ford, Medical College of Wisconsin, Miami, Oklahoma, UT Houston, UT San Antonio, Vanderbilt, Yale, Winthrop University Hospital

COMMENTS:
Based on other lists on this forum, I think many would contend that Mass Gen, U Penn, Michigan, NYU are too low and Mayo is too high. Probably a few other surprises here, but I think keeping them in the above tiers rather than strict ranks makes these fairly consistent with other lists that are out there.

Hope this is helpful to residency applicants. Remember not to put too much emphasis on reputation - choose the place where you'll be happiest!

 

[greg1184]

Where is UTSW, UF, VCU? I am surprised those don't make any list.

 

[shark2000]

People can talk forever about these ranking with no conclusion. The truth is nobody knows which one is better when comparing for example BWH with UCSF.

My recommendation is to rank as following:

1- Biggest academic center in the city that you want to live. If your plan is to live in Boston, rank BWH over UCSF. If it is Seattle, rank UW over BWH.

2- Well known academic centers in your region of interest. For example choose Tufts over Stanford, if you plan to stay in Boston.

3- Mid west academic centers over small universities and community programs. Choose Indiana or Colorado over Cook county in Chicago, even if you want to stay in Chicago. Try to choose closer to where you want to practice.

4- Small universities and community programs.

From job perspective, 1=2 >3 >>4

From education standpoint: 1>3>2>>>4.

You can argue forever whether UCSD is better or Northwestern. The truth is, if you plan on living in Texas, UTSW is better for you than UCSD, NW or even MGH/UCSF.

Example: MIR is one of the best radiology programs out there. From my experience, their graduates have relatively hard time finding a job compared to many good but not top programs. Most of this, is because of regional bias as many of their residents prefer to move to a different place.

Job finding is all about connections these days. Most good jobs are not advertised at all. Groups want to test you for a while before hiring you. In most large cities, the local groups have moonlighting opportunities, which are offered mostly to regional academic center residents and fellows through word of mouth. If they like you after a few months of working for them, they hire you. For a non local person it is almost impossible to break into this market as you do not know about these moonlighting opportunities and also you can not for example travel every Saturday to Boston or Chicago from SF to cover a day for them.

 

[deleted116380]

Where is UTSW, UF, VCU? I am surprised those don't make any list.

They're not there because it's some subjective list of what people think is a good program (BCS rankings anyone?). Like with undergrad and med school, I disregarded rankings for my application process. The quality of education you receive comes down to how much effort you want to put in. As long as the program doesn't have accreditation issues or a thousand fellows taking your cases, I'm guessing you will be fine.

I didn't even bother applying to MIR or Mayo (top tier per that ranking) as I wouldn't want to spend a day of my life in either of those cities. Same for a number of the 2nd tier programs listed. This application cycle was the first time I applied to big name programs like UCSF, Harvard, etc, but mainly because of the cities they're in...not the perceived quality of education it would somehow provide over a "lesser name" program.

I'm sure others will chime in and say how great big name places are for lectures, fellowship and job placement, etc. Everyone gets a job at the end of the day and a fellowship in pretty much the section they want. It might help for area of the country you want to work I suppose that would otherwise have a regional bias.

 

[greg1184]

They're not there because it's some subjective list of what people think is a good program (BCS rankings anyone?). Like with undergrad and med school, I disregarded rankings for my application process. The quality of education you receive comes down to how much effort you want to put in. As long as the program doesn't have accreditation issues or a thousand fellows taking your cases, I'm guessing you will be fine.

I didn't even bother applying to MIR or Mayo (top tier per that ranking) as I wouldn't want to spend a day of my life in either of those cities. Same for a number of the 2nd tier programs listed. This application cycle was the first time I applied to big name programs like UCSF, Harvard, etc, but mainly because of the cities they're in...not the perceived quality of education it would somehow provide over a "lesser name" program.

I'm sure others will chime in and say how great big name places are for lectures, fellowship and job placement, etc. Everyone gets a job at the end of the day and a fellowship in pretty much the section they want. It might help for area of the country you want to work I suppose that would otherwise have a regional bias.

So I don't need a 50T body crushing magnet to get a good education? 😛

 

[shark2000]

Are there stellar radiologists from "non-brand" name programs? Sure. Lots of them.

Are there incompetent radiologists from top tier programs? yes. I know a couple.

Is Education in a top tier program better than a community program? Yes. For sure. Not only because of lectures. It is a combination of lectures, working with subspecialist attending, more diverse pathology, interdisciplinary conferences and ...

Is it easier to find a job coming out of name brand? For sure. Believe me, it is easier any time for many reasons you can find on other posts.

It is not about where you can have education. A Toyota and a BMW both do the job. Both are reliable. But if you had the opportunity to choose between a free BMW and a free Toyota, there should be a very very strong reason to choose Toyota or there may be something wrong with you.

A brand name program has at least one great advantage. You will not have an inferiority complex the rest of your life.

 

[deleted116380]

Are there stellar radiologists from "non-brand" name programs? Sure. Lots of them.

Are there incompetent radiologists from top tier programs? yes. I know a couple.

Is Education in a top tier program better than a community program? Yes. For sure. Not only because of lectures. It is a combination of lectures, working with subspecialist attending, more diverse pathology, interdisciplinary conferences and ...

Is it easier to find a job coming out of name brand? For sure. Believe me, it is easier any time for many reasons you can find on other posts.

It is not about where you can have education. A Toyota and a BMW both do the job. Both are reliable. But if you had the opportunity to choose between a free BMW and a free Toyota, there should be a very very strong reason to choose Toyota or there may be something wrong with you.

A brand name program has at least one great advantage. You will not have an inferiority complex the rest of your life.

LOL @ the car comparison. I'm a huge car guy and would take a new Toyota Land Cruiser over anything BMW offers other than the F10 M5 (6sp only).

If you're about brand name, go for it. 🙂

Edit: Another funny thing about that are the Japanese luxury car makers Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus. None of those exist in Japan as the same models are sold over there under Nissan, Honda, and Toyota brands, respectively. I do think Lexus may have been introduced in 2005 there so that part may not be true any longer. When those manufacturers came to the US and wanted to introduce higher end cars, they were pretty much forced to make the fake brands to separate themselves from the lower-end lineup. People here just couldn't get around the brand names of the "lower" end cars.

VW experienced the same thing recently with the Phaeton (V8 and W12 versions) that were selling for the same price if not more than the Audi A8. The Phaeton struggled for similar reasons as people didn't want that brand name even though the car was much better built (still a very popular car in Europe).

Ah...Americans and our love for brand name goods. Well, most of them at least. 😉

 

[cowme]

Are there stellar radiologists from "non-brand" name programs? Sure. Lots of them.

Are there incompetent radiologists from top tier programs? yes. I know a couple.

Is Education in a top tier program better than a community program? Yes. For sure. Not only because of lectures. It is a combination of lectures, working with subspecialist attending, more diverse pathology, interdisciplinary conferences and ...

Is it easier to find a job coming out of name brand? For sure. Believe me, it is easier any time for many reasons you can find on other posts.

It is not about where you can have education. A Toyota and a BMW both do the job. Both are reliable. But if you had the opportunity to choose between a free BMW and a free Toyota, there should be a very very strong reason to choose Toyota or there may be something wrong with you.

A brand name program has at least one great advantage. You will not have an inferiority complex the rest of your life.

I dont get that analogy. Obviously, name brands offer a better training but It's not like people are choosing crappy programs over name brands (except for location, where it probably isn't a bad choice--as you said, connections trump all in the job hunt)

 

[shark2000]

The analogy is: Go to the best name brand that you can, though it may not necessary mean better education.

Also name brand may be different in different locations. For example in Texas, groups may consider UTSW a very reputable place, but in Boston, they may not (This is just an example and may be right or wrong).

Regional Bias is very very important.

 

[ar2388]

i must say, its nice that regional bias is important... decisions i have made in the past about med school and even wjere i applied to for residency that at the time people said were not good actually seem right now.

 

[NEradsSTUDENT]

Yale is really that low? Is it competitive to match there?

 

[MossPoh]

Am I blind or is Cornell not even on that list? Call me crazy, but I think they would be in one of those tiers, not that it matters.

My invites have been pretty regional, but I've still gotten good ones out of be region. Also, one can always do a fellowship in a different region....

 

[neolynx]

There are definitely a few, Cornell and Columbia included, that I think deserve to be on a top 50 list.
I avoided including my own personal opinions on rankings as I made this list - it's still obviously subjective, but at least it averages out the subjective opinions of a lot of different radiologists instead of just a handful from one department.

 

[Browser]

spot on

 

[neolynx]

Yale is really that low? Is it competitive to match there?

For whatever reason, Yale radiology has not recently been ranked highly in radiology. Perhaps because radiology particularly benefits from a large catchment area, and they're so close to other big departments?

I interviewed there when I was applying. Their residents seemed very happy and satisfied they were getting good training and they have some strong research programs, but it does seem to be less competitive than many of the other schools on the list.

 

[shark2000]

For whatever reason, Yale radiology has not recently been ranked highly in radiology. Perhaps because radiology particularly benefits from a large catchment area, and they're so close to other big departments?

I interviewed there when I was applying. Their residents seemed very happy and satisfied they were getting good training and they have some strong research programs, but it does seem to be less competitive than many of the other schools on the list.

Yale is a big name, but in radiology world is not considered a top notch program. It is considered second tier compared to many programs in NE.

The department has good research opportunities. Education wise it is a fellows run department, as a result the education is suffered. They have a strong IR department, not a powerhouse. Otherwise, none of the other departments are considered a top notch fellowship.

Matching there is easier than many NE programs. Many of their residents are happy, because without being top in their class, they could match at a place which has a name brand (though outside radiology).

Anyway, if you are looking for a resident run program with top notch education there are many better programs in NE.

 

[Hysty]

Yale is a big name, but in radiology world is not considered a top notch program. It is considered second tier compared to many programs in NE.

The department has good research opportunities. Education wise it is a fellows run department, as a result the education is suffered. They have a strong IR department, not a powerhouse. Otherwise, none of the other departments are considered a top notch fellowship.

Matching there is easier than many NE programs. Many of their residents are happy, because without being top in their class, they could match at a place which has a name brand (though outside radiology).

Anyway, if you are looking for a resident run program with top notch education there are many better programs in NE.