Another URM fact-oid

Started by LizzyM
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LizzyM

LizzyM

the evil queen of numbers
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A thread that was closed earlier today got me thinking about Latinos.

Did you know that, in a given admission cycle, 60% of the applicants who self-idenify as Latino/a do not matriculate at any AMCAS-affiliated school?(which likely means that they got no offers of admission)

Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
 
LizzyM said:
Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
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Or people who think that your URM status is the reason why you will be a successful applicant.
 
LizzyM said:
A thread that was closed earlier today got me thinking about Latinos.

Did you know that, in a given admission cycle, 60% of the applicants who self-idenify as Latino/a do not matriculate at any AMCAS-affiliated school?(which likely means that they got no offers of admission)

Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
Click to expand...

That's pretty interesting. If you happen to know off the top of your head, how many white/Caucasians etc. do not matriculate?
 
so would that mean if you are an average URM applicant is it detrimental to apply?
 
I wonder if one can make the argument that often URM's who have sub-par stats apply just because they figure that being URM will get them in, and that is why such a huge percentage doesn't, while a non-URM with bad stats would be more likely to take a year off and improve his/her chances because he/she can't "count" on the URM status.

Or maybe URM's are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and therefore less likely to be able to take "a year off" and take a bunch of classes or enroll in fancy SMP's or post-bacs or Kaplan MCAT classes.

Total speculations, but it'd be interesting to see if any of these things are the case.
 
udlax16 said:
so would that mean if you are an average URM applicant is it detrimental to apply?
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No that is not what it means.
Moreso it means that if you are a weak applicant, being an URM will not guarantee you anything.
 
pianola said:
That's pretty interesting. If you happen to know off the top of your head, how many white/Caucasians etc. do not matriculate?
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Among whites in 2007, there were 24,136 applicants and 10,632 matriculants so 44% of applicants matriculated. The percentage matriculating is down from prior years because while more applicants are being admitted (337 more white applicants were admitted in 2007 than in 2005 -- that's the equivalent of 2 or 3 more med schools!) the number of white applicants has increased even more sharply (from 21,755 in 2005 to 24,136 in 2007)

Do your best, forget about the rest.
 
LET said:
I wonder if one can make the argument that often URM's who have sub-par stats apply just because they figure that being URM will get them in, and that is why such a huge percentage doesn't, while a non-URM with bad stats would be more likely to take a year off and improve his/her chances because he/she can't "count" on the URM status.

Or maybe URM's are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and therefore less likely to be able to take "a year off" and take a bunch of classes or enroll in fancy SMP's or post-bacs or Kaplan MCAT classes.

Total speculations, but it'd be interesting to see if any of these things are the case.
Click to expand...

I think its the first part more than the second
 
LET said:
I wonder if one can make the argument that often URM's who have sub-par stats apply just because they figure that being URM will get them in, and that is why such a huge percentage doesn't, while a non-URM with bad stats would be more likely to take a year off and improve his/her chances because he/she can't "count" on the URM status.

Or maybe URM's are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and therefore less likely to be able to take "a year off" and take a bunch of classes or enroll in fancy SMP's or post-bacs or Kaplan MCAT classes.

Total speculations, but it'd be interesting to see if any of these things are the case.
Click to expand...

I doubt the former is the case, out of the 5 blacks (including myself) I know that are applying, 4 have taken at least a year off. I'm the only one I know who is applying as a college age junior.

As to your second point, I think that may be more of the case. I know of one girl who has been saving up FOREVER to take Kaplan but still couldn't afford it. I'm the only black male of about 40 students at my kaplan center and theres one other black female.

This could also be due to the low number of applicants in my area, I would be surprised if it took me more than one hand to count the number of black male applicants in my state. At my undergrad institution of 12,000+, which is the second largest school in the state and also has the second highest black population, 20%. Me and my girlfriend are the only 2 black pre-meds at the entire school.
 
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Unfortunately, I don't see these forums being mature enough (from both sides of the argument) to keep this thread open very long...

I do believe that there are many variables that are not being mentioned though, and whether or not it be the majority LET hit on at least three of them, I'm sure.
 
ejay286 said:
I doubt the former is the case, out of the 5 blacks (including myself) I know that are applying, 4 have taken at least a year off. I'm the only one I know who is applying as a college age junior.

As to your second point, I think that may be more of the case. I know of one girl who has been saving up FOREVER to take Kaplan but still couldn't afford it. I'm the only black male of about 40 students at my kaplan center and theres one other black female.
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Agreed...Financial limitations (regardless of URM status) can be a large barrier (think kaplan, multiple MCAT, travel to interviews). I also believe that one must also consider 'social capital' as well. For instance, many of us on these boards have parents that are physicians or pre-existing relationships that make it much easier to get shadowing expierence and research expierence. URM communities typically have less access to these things, putting them at a disadvantage. That said, I find LizzyM's stat to be comforting in that no one should get a free ride into med school for being URM (or the lucky offspring of a dean of admissions!).
 
thank you lizzym. it seems to me that some people are so concened with other applicants. just worry about yourself! Maybe there are some URMs admitted that don't quite have the qualifications, but like someone else mentioned, for every "unqualified URM" there are probably 5 spoiled bluebloods who get in with the same low stats. Every URM med student I've met belongs in med school, adcoms aren't stupid, do you know how many over qualified latino applicants the UC's get every year? It seems to me that people really worried about URMs getting in "unfairly" are people with somewhat marginal stats themselves - just get good grades and good mcat scores, and don't worry about other people.
 
LizzyM said:
Do your best, forget about the rest.
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Of course. I was just curious, since you brought it up. I think there's a natural fascination with the subject of URM-status from both URMs and non-URMs alike, and of course, widely divergent views on all sides.

I'm sure there are many factors that can contribute to the difficulty of getting into medical school, as other posters have noted.

Kudos to the URMs who do succeed in getting representation. In fact, kudos to everyone who gets into medical school since the odds of success, no matter who you are, aren't that great.
 
Thanks for bringing that up... I was the OP to the thread that got closed - i didn't realize I would get so much heat though the thread went in a discussion I would not have hoped 😱

I guess bringing up my friend up was not the best of examples, but then again I brought the thread up in the first place because members of SDN were making posts about being "part -----" and those not under this URM saying things like "lucky!!" wishing they would have been.
 
LizzyM said:
Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
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Wow. I thought I'd be surprised if LizzyM ever made a backhandedly racist comment like this one here on SDN, much less start off a thread with it. Come to find out, the only surprise is that I'm not.
 
Uniq said:
Wow. I thought I'd be surprised if LizzyM ever made a backhandedly racist comment like this one here on SDN, much less start off a thread with it. Come to find out, the only surprise is that I'm not.
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LizzyM's post was a reference to this post in a somewhat inflammatory thread that was closed.

Over the years I've found that LizzyM's posts about URM's to be quite contrary to the standard Pre-Allo blame game. Perhaps there's an element that you misinterpreted?
 
LizzyM said:
A thread that was closed earlier today got me thinking about Latinos.

Did you know that, in a given admission cycle, 60% of the applicants who self-idenify as Latino/a do not matriculate at any AMCAS-affiliated school?(which likely means that they got no offers of admission)

Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
Click to expand...

Just because you are Latino doesn't mean you are necessarily a "URM", Cubans for example tend to be over-represented in medicine relative to their population. Furthermore, within the Latino subgroup AAMC has historical considered only Mexican Americans and Puerto Ricans to be URM. I know that the definition they use has changed recently, but I am fairly certain those two groups are still the ones who benefit the most. For example I am Latino, but not from any of those groups, and while I don't doubt I've benefitted from schools attempting to increase "diversity", I definitely did not receive shoe in acceptances just because of my background.

And just speaking from my experience, none of my Latino friends who are applying to medical school think they will have it easier than the rest just because they are Latino. Everyone tries their best to be the most competitive applicant they can, no matter what race/ethnicity they are.
 
Uniq said:
Wow. I thought I'd be surprised if LizzyM ever made a backhandedly racist comment like this one here on SDN, much less start off a thread with it. Come to find out, the only surprise is that I'm not.
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¿Que estas hablando?
 
Uniq said:
Wow. I thought I'd be surprised if LizzyM ever made a backhandedly racist comment like this one here on SDN, much less start off a thread with it. Come to find out, the only surprise is that I'm not.
Click to expand...

You're right. I was offended 🙄
 
frikarika said:
Just because you are Latino doesn't mean you are necessarily a "URM", Cubans for example tend to be over-represented in medicine relative to their population. Furthermore, within the Latino subgroup AAMC has historical considered only Mexican Americans and Puerto Ricans to be URM. I know that the definition they use has changed recently, but I am fairly certain those two groups are still the ones who benefit the most. For example I am Latino, but not from any of those groups, and while I don't doubt I've benefitted from schools attempting to increase "diversity", I definitely did not receive shoe in acceptances just because of my background.

And just speaking from my experience, none of my Latino friends who are applying to medical school think they will have it easier than the rest just because they are Latino. Everyone tries their best to be the most competitive applicant they can, no matter what race/ethnicity they are.
Click to expand...

Please reference Depakote's post pointing to the original thread that LizzyM's post on this matter referenced (wherein an individual gave an anecdote about a particular friend's attitude). LizzyM wasn't making a generalization, she was commenting on the plausibility/logic of a particular individual's thought process about their own status.
 
Uniq said:
Wow. I thought I'd be surprised if LizzyM ever made a backhandedly racist comment like this one here on SDN, much less start off a thread with it. Come to find out, the only surprise is that I'm not.
Click to expand...

i guess any sentence that does not support the URM system is a racist comment then??

i don't see any racism in that; it was in reference to a previous thread.
 
Depakote said:
LizzyM's post was a reference to this post in a somewhat inflammatory thread that was closed.

Over the years I've found that LizzyM's posts about URM's to be quite contrary to the standard Pre-Allo blame game. Perhaps there's an element that you misinterpreted?
Click to expand...


Exactly, which is why I thought I'd be surprised. In this case, I certainly hope LizzyM "misspoke," but given his/her post, I don't think there's any misinterpretation on my end.
 
LucidSplash said:
Please reference Depakote's post pointing to the original thread that LizzyM's post on this matter referenced (wherein an individual gave an anecdote about a particular friend's attitude). LizzyM wasn't making a generalization, she was commenting on the plausibility/logic of a particular individual's thought process about their own status.
Click to expand...

Yes, I read the post but where did the OP of that thread state his friend was latino anyway?
 
There is no misspeaking, it was a response to a former thread with a presentation of fact from the freaking AAMC website. Is the AAMC racist because they have a chart showing that only 40 percent of URM hispanics got into medical school? If anything, it shows that "URM status" is helpful and needed (though I'm not advocating anything)
 
Uniq said:
Exactly, which is why I thought I'd be surprised. In this case, I certainly hope LizzyM "misspoke," but given his/her post, I don't think there's any misinterpretation on my end.
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There is nothing wrong or racist with Lizzy's comment; she was pointing out that no one of any ethnicity or race should think that they get a free ride to med school just because of their race.
 
URM status is an enormous help. Yes 44% of white students matriculated, and only 42.5 % of Hispanic/Latino students did. But the Latino students did so with a much lower average MCAT/GPA.

Average White Matriculant:

BS: 10.7, PS: 10.3, VR: 10.2

Average Latino Matriculant:

Mexican American: BS: 9.8 , PS: 9.1, VR: 9.0
Puerto Rican: BS: 8.7, PS: 7.9, VR: 7.6
Cuban: BS: 10.0, PS: 9.5, VR: 9.1
Other: BS: 10.3, PS: 9.6, VR: 9.4

So not too much help if you're "other", but it offers a very nice cushion. If you're a mediocre latino URM (mediocre stats), you can bet on getting into medical school with weaker stats than required by other students. Especially if you're Puerto Rican, luckyyyyyyy.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm
 
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frikarika said:
Yes, I read the post but where did the OP of that thread state his friend was latino anyway?
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Dude, it was an example of why the individual's thinking about URM status in general is flawed, based on a specific URM statistic. But seriously, if you want to believe that LizzyM is inciting racially-motivated angst against Latinos in the application process by saying that all Latinos applying to medical school think their Latin heritage compensates for their supposedly racially universal subpar stats, go ahead. Its so ridiculous to read her statement that way, far be it from me to attempt to talk you out of it.
 
LucidSplash said:
Please reference Depakote's post pointing to the original thread that LizzyM's post on this matter referenced (wherein an individual gave an anecdote about a particular friend's attitude). LizzyM wasn't making a generalization, she was commenting on the plausibility/logic of a particular individual's thought process about their own status.
Click to expand...

"Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call."

This is much more of a generalization than a comment on an individual. But still....
 
bcat85 said:
There is no misspeaking, it was a response to a former thread with a presentation of fact from the freaking AAMC website. Is the AAMC racist because they have a chart showing that only 40 percent of URM hispanics got into medical school? If anything, it shows that "URM status" is helpful and needed (though I'm not advocating anything)
Click to expand...

I did not refute the AAMC statistics.
 
ufgrad00 said:
There is nothing wrong or racist with Lizzy's comment; she was pointing out that no one of any ethnicity or race should think that they get a free ride to med school just because of their race.
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Is "any ethnicity or race" what is meant by "Latino?"
 
NoMoreAMCAS said:
URM status is an enormous help. Yes 44% of white students matriculated, and only 42.5 % of Hispanic/Latino students did. But the Latino students did so with a much lower average MCAT/GPA.

Average White Matriculant:

BS: 10.7, PS: 10.3, VR: 10.2

Average Latino Matriculant:

Mexican American: BS: 9.8 , PS: 9.1, VR: 9.0
Puerto Rican: BS: 8.7, PS: 7.9, VR: 7.6
Cuban: BS: 10.0, PS: 9.5, VR: 9.1
Other: BS: 10.3, PS: 9.6, VR: 9.4

So not too much help if you're "other", but it offers a very nice cushion. If you're a mediocre latino URM (mediocre stats), you can bet on getting into medical school with weaker stats than required by other students. Especially if you're Puerto Rican, luckyyyyyyy.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm
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Nice work here.

So, without putting too fine a point on it, if you are a plain old white applicant, you better have a 30+ on your MCAT if you want to go to med school...the stats showing 24k white apps with only 10.6k white matriculants (with a 31.2 MCAT avg), and the average white applicant with around a 28.6 MCAT, is pretty staggering (meaning to me if you are white and have less than a 30 on your MCAT, your chances at med school are diminished considerably).

Somebody else got a different spin on these stats? There will be exceptions for white applicants in certain states (say LA and MS) where the sub 30 MCAT won't ruin you, but otherwise, a sub 30 score looks deadly for a white applicant.
 
metalgearHMN said:
I really think you misinterpreted LizzyM's comment. You need to look at the context. She's trying to help us out.
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I don't refute that LizzyM is trying to help. And I certainly hope that what LizzyM meant to say is not what was actually said. But I really think I didn't misinterpret the comment. Can you explain how exactly the context rationalizes starting a thread with this generalized admonishment of a racial minority group against "trying to pull a fast one" on admissions people?
 
Uniq said:
I don't refute that LizzyM is trying to help. And I certainly hope that what LizzyM meant to say is not what was actually said. But I really think I didn't misinterpret the comment. Can you explain how exactly the context rationalizes starting a thread with this generalized admonishment of a racial minority group against "trying to pull a fast one" on admissions people?
Click to expand...

Why do you have this phrase in quotes? Is that a quote from LizzyM or someone else on this thread? Who said anything about a race of people trying to pull a fast one on admissions people?

What was your Verbal score on the MCAT? I am guessing no better than 7 given your poor reading comprehension skills on display here with your grand total of 13 posts...
 
flip26 said:
Why do you have this phrase in quotes? Is that a quote from LizzyM or someone else on this thread? Who said anything about a race of people trying to pull a fast one on admissions people?

What was your Verbal score on the MCAT? I am guessing no better than 7 given your poor reading comprehension skills on display here with your grand total of 13 posts...
Click to expand...

I have that in quotes simply because it is a colloquial phrase. For the record, I am not quoting anyone else here.

Even so, I think that my quotation mark usage is tangential to the discussion and that this post is altogether irrelevant.
 
LizzyM said:
A thread that was closed earlier today got me thinking about Latinos.

Did you know that, in a given admission cycle, 60% of the applicants who self-idenify as Latino/a do not matriculate at any AMCAS-affiliated school?(which likely means that they got no offers of admission)

Any Latino/a who shrugs off a subpar performance with a "Thank God for URM status" comment needs a wake-up call.
Click to expand...

this doesn't mean anything; how do you know that the average stats for the 40% that DID get accepted wasn't lower than the national average? Just because a higher PERCENTAGE didn't get accepted does not mean that it isn't easier for URM's to get accepted ultimately. Everyone knows the bar is set lower for URM's; you are assuming that this bar couldn't be set lower for if it was, a higher percentage would be accepted, but this is far from necessary. Perhaps it is simply the case that a lower than average percentage of URM's can meet their subjective (albeit lowered) standard for admissions. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this data, and certainly not proclaim that URM status can't make up for lower than average stats. There is a reason the URM status exists to begin with and it would be foolish to deny that.

oh, and factoid isn't hyphenated...
 
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