Another "versus" thread: go D.O., or reapply for next year?

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Clemson Doc

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With all of the "versus" threads, I thought I would post my own - but with a twist. I would appreciate it if everyone would throw in their $.02.

First, some background. I'm 23, have a bachelor's degree in business, and applied to M.D. and D.O. schools for the first time last year. My GPA is a 3.0, and my MCAT is a 26. I graduated from college in 2.5 years, at age 20, and then decided to pursue medicine. So I went back and took the pre-med courses and had about a 3.2 in those. I have worked full-time for almost two years now. I have good EC's (shadowed a primary care physician on rounds, scrubbed in on some surgeries, volunteered at a free medical clinic, helped at a soup kitchen, etc.). I feel confident that my recommendation letters are all very good.

I applied to 14 schools last fall, and was accepted at a D.O. school (Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine). I'm currently on the waiting list at my top choice, an M.D. school, the University of South Carolina. They told me that I'm at the top of the bottom third of their ranked waiting list, which puts me around #40. I could still get in there, but with a class size of about 80, I'm making backup plans in case I don't get in.

I don't have a problem with the D.O. philosophy at all, and I have utmost respect for VCOM and what they are doing there (I am very thankful that I somehow got in, because the average numbers there are 3.4/26 and I know a bunch of people with better numbers than I who didn't even get a secondary application from them). However, I do have some concerns about VCOM. Namely, it is a young school and will not technically be accredited until the first class graduates (which will be in 2007). I have no idea how the program will be perceived by residency directors. I have a problem knowing that some residency programs are "off limits" to D.O. students, and other programs require a D.O. to have better grades and test scores than M.D. students to be considered their equals. Unfortunately, there is still somewhat of a D.O. stigma that exists (which I disagree with). The school is focused on rural medicine, and I have no interest in practicing in rural America when I am finished with residency. The biggest problem I have with VCOM (and any D.O. school for that matter) is the cost. It is going to end up costing me $70,000 or so more to attend VCOM than it would USC. That's a lot of money, especially since I am leaning toward a primary care field.

My "versus" deals with the following: do I take the sure thing and attend VCOM, feeling confident that I will get a great education, have access to top notch facilities, and meet some great people, or do I try to get in the Special Master's Program at Georgetown and reapply for matriculation in fall 2005? The idea of spending a year in D.C. sounds fun, and although it's $30,000 or so for the year, I think it would be a neat experience and prepare me well for the rigors of medical school. The risk, of course, is that I would not get in anywhere next year and then possibly regret not taking the sure thing at VCOM. Some people say that it doesn't really matter where you get your degree, and that the important thing is to get in somewhere. When I'm practicing medicine in 8 years, it might not matter at all as long as I'm licensed to practice in the U.S.

If I decided to pursue the M.S. from Georgetown, I would plan on taking the August MCAT this year, do well in the program, and hopefully get in at an M.D. school. With my poor GPA, I know that it would probably take at least a 30 or so on the MCAT and a good performance in Georgetown SMP to do that.

Opinions and thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance!
 
Go for VCOM. It's a sure thing and it is my impression that you can make the most of any medical education. If you can go there and excel, residency directors will be impressed. Osteopathy is expanding and I suspect that D.O.'s will become increasingly more mainstream over the next 5-10 years.

My 2 cents!
 
I have a couple of DO friends who recently graduated and got placed in EM, dermatology, and general surgery. DO schools have their own residency hospital's, so getting placed in a good residency is not as impossible as it seems. The only thing that makes it tougher for DO's to get into allopathic residency programs is that they have to take the USMLE's and COMLEX, so most DO students don't bother taking the USMLE's because its frustrating enough to take one boards.
And its not true that some residency programs are off limit to DO schools only. Except of course if you're talking about top 10 residency programs, which seem off limits to any school that is not top 30. So why bother with those. In the end you'll be a doctor and no one will care where you went to school or did your residency. If I was in your position I'd get my DO and get my schooling over with. Unless of course you love the agony of going to school and competing for getting straight A's.
 
Clemson Doc said:
With all of the "versus" threads, I thought I would post my own - but with a twist. I would appreciate it if everyone would throw in their $.02.

First, some background. I'm 23, have a bachelor's degree in business, and applied to M.D. and D.O. schools for the first time last year. My GPA is a 3.0, and my MCAT is a 26. I graduated from college in 2.5 years, at age 20, and then decided to pursue medicine. So I went back and took the pre-med courses and had about a 3.2 in those. I have worked full-time for almost two years now. I have good EC's (shadowed a primary care physician on rounds, scrubbed in on some surgeries, volunteered at a free medical clinic, helped at a soup kitchen, etc.). I feel confident that my recommendation letters are all very good.

I applied to 14 schools last fall, and was accepted at a D.O. school (Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine). I'm currently on the waiting list at my top choice, an M.D. school, the University of South Carolina. They told me that I'm at the top of the bottom third of their ranked waiting list, which puts me around #40. I could still get in there, but with a class size of about 80, I'm making backup plans in case I don't get in.

I don't have a problem with the D.O. philosophy at all, and I have utmost respect for VCOM and what they are doing there (I am very thankful that I somehow got in, because the average numbers there are 3.4/26 and I know a bunch of people with better numbers than I who didn't even get a secondary application from them). However, I do have some concerns about VCOM. Namely, it is a young school and will not technically be accredited until the first class graduates (which will be in 2007). I have no idea how the program will be perceived by residency directors. I have a problem knowing that some residency programs are "off limits" to D.O. students, and other programs require a D.O. to have better grades and test scores than M.D. students to be considered their equals. Unfortunately, there is still somewhat of a D.O. stigma that exists (which I disagree with). The school is focused on rural medicine, and I have no interest in practicing in rural America when I am finished with residency. The biggest problem I have with VCOM (and any D.O. school for that matter) is the cost. It is going to end up costing me $70,000 or so more to attend VCOM than it would USC. That's a lot of money, especially since I am leaning toward a primary care field.

My "versus" deals with the following: do I take the sure thing and attend VCOM, feeling confident that I will get a great education, have access to top notch facilities, and meet some great people, or do I try to get in the Special Master's Program at Georgetown and reapply for matriculation in fall 2005? The idea of spending a year in D.C. sounds fun, and although it's $30,000 or so for the year, I think it would be a neat experience and prepare me well for the rigors of medical school. The risk, of course, is that I would not get in anywhere next year and then possibly regret not taking the sure thing at VCOM. Some people say that it doesn't really matter where you get your degree, and that the important thing is to get in somewhere. When I'm practicing medicine in 8 years, it might not matter at all as long as I'm licensed to practice in the U.S.

If I decided to pursue the M.S. from Georgetown, I would plan on taking the August MCAT this year, do well in the program, and hopefully get in at an M.D. school. With my poor GPA, I know that it would probably take at least a 30 or so on the MCAT and a good performance in Georgetown SMP to do that.

Opinions and thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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i can tell you what i would do in your shoes, some people would not agree but f@#$ them. here it goes:

i'd check to see what would my gpa be like after taking GTown's SMP. EVMS has one too, i think they accept more kids into their own school too. If i would have a 3.3 total after the program and know i'd be getting at least a 30 on the mcat, i'd do it. If i knew i couldn't get over a 26, i'd go to the carribean because i'd only be there for a year and i'd have an MD degree. I'd rather have a carribean md than a DO. if i didn't feel like wasting two years, i'd just go to vcom and be happy that at least i am a doctor.

[i thought you were old for some reason, so i had to change this sentance]
 
Why do you think an MD is better then a DO?
 
Yes I'm a 23 year-old male. Thanks for all of the replies so far. Keep 'em coming.
 
smp guarantees nothing unfortunately...(other than an interview if you finish high...but even then...its no guarantee)

go to vcom.
DOs have their own residency programs, but if you want to do an allo residency then you can but you have to take the allo boards as well as the DO ones.

the cost is obviously a setback, but in the end most of us will have huge amts of debt...even the ones going into primary care...
we just gotta be smart with our money for a while.

but congrats.
 
At 23 you are still very young...I wish I was only 23! (I'm not going to be finished with prerequisites and sit for the MCAT until I'm 30). I think it all boils down to what you are happy with. It certainly sounds like you do not want to go to VCOM. If this is how you feel, I would advise you to let the acceptance go and reapply next year in the hopes of getting into a school you are truly happy with. You are going to invest a ton of $$, time and effort in medical school and it is a once in a lifetime decision.

With your GPA/MCAT scores I think you should apply to more schools and apply everywhere next time around (20-30 schools) in order to increase your chances of acceptance. It is unfortunate that alot of schools play the numbers game and have the option to reject your application even before you turn in your secondaries based upon these numbers. Good Luck!
 
If this even a consideration for you, I would suggest waiting and reapplying. You seem concerned there is a DO stigma. Fine, you realize this and it is a concern for you. Do yourself a favor and wait and reapply. Maybe do some post-bacc during the year in between. You will be a much happier person.

A couple of sides notes, a lot of DO residencies are considered crap even by a lot of DOs. Many are underfunded and have low case loads. Essentially, you are limited to allo residencies anyways.

I'll share my personal experience with you. I'm applying to only DO schools. Why? Honestly, the stigma doesn't bother me. I realize there is one, but I don't care. I don't feel the need to earn the respect of a bunch of pompous dinguses. I don't consider medicine to be the pretigous uber career that a lot of people make it out to be. I see it as more of a humble public service.

I look for respect in other areas. I consider earning the respect of my Sifu much more worthwhile than some guy who spent most of his young adult life studying in a dorm room. Hell, I consider the respect of younger or older students more meaningful. It's a great feeling to be respected by those who are less experienced than you and have them look to you for guidance and help (though I'm not always able to give it to the degree they deserve) 👍
 
I think you should go to VCOM. Realistically, to get into an MD school you will have to get at least a 30 or above on your MCAT to be competitive. You will spend an extra year a the SMP program paying 30K for the year for what. A chance to get into a DO school again? Look at the class of 2002 from Georgetown SMP and where they went. You will notice that a good number went to DO schools.

http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/physiology/physios/prevclass.htm

SMP Class of 2002 --Where are they now?
Albany (1)
Arizona Osteopathic (1)
Creighton (1)
Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine (1)
Chicago Medical School/Finch (1)
Des Moines Osteopathic (1)
Eastern Virginia Medical School (2)
George Washington (1)
Georgetown (17)
Kansas City Osteopathic (2)
Medical College of Wisconsin (1)
Medical College of Virginia (4)
Morehouse (1)
New York Medical College (6)
MCP Hahnemann (3)
Saint Louis University (4)
Southern Illinois University (2)
SUNY-Brooklyn (2)
SUNY-Syracuse (1)
Tufts (2)
Tulane (1)
University of Chicago (1)
University of Connecticut (1)
University of Florida (1)
University of Hawaii (2)
University of Illinois (2)
University of Kansas (1)
University of Maryland (1)
University of Miami (1)
University of Nebraska (1)
Morehouse (1) UMDNJ (1)
UMDNJ-RWJ (1)
University of Southern California (1)
University of Wisconsin (1)
USUHS (2)
Western/Pomona Osteopathic (2)
Wright State (1)

If you go to the DO school now, you will be a 2nd or even a 3rd year student by the time you start your first year at the MD school of your choice, and even that is a gamble. I would go for the sure thing.

Also note that if you do decline your acceptance, it would be hard to apply again to DO schools since you turned them down the first time. Thus, you would be putting all your eggs in one basket.
 
Unless the DO shangal was talking about who got into a derm residency was for an osteo derm residency, then that was an exceptional DO student. DO students have a harder time getting into the most competitive allo residencies. Those are just the facts of life, love em or hate em.

I'd go to VCOM.

JH
 
Oh I forgot to mention, I found this article on VCOM a couple of days ago. Perhaps you would care to read it Clemson Doc.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031775414243&path=!news!health&s=1045855935235

A feeling in the bones
Through a new school, osteopathic medicine returns to its birthplace

BY REX BOWMAN
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER May 13, 2004

BLACKSBURG -- Whether provoked by sorrow or rage - he had just lost four children to meningitis - Dr. Andrew Taylor Still of Lee County set out in 1864 determined to create a new way of doctoring.

Ten years later, the country doctor from Appalachia had created the school of medicine known as osteopathy, an ahead-of-its-time, holistic approach to medical care that emphasized taking care of the body's musculoskeletal system. By 1892, Still had founded the American School of Osteopathy in Kirksville, Mo.

Other osteopathic schools eventually sprang up around the nation, and today thousands of physicians are not M.D.s (doctors of medicine) but D.O.s (doctors of osteopathy).

Now, osteopathy has returned to its birthplace. The Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine opened its doors to students in the fall, becoming the first osteopathic school in Still's home state. The 153 students in the initial class are finishing up their first year of study.


The private school is funded in part by the Harvey W. Peters Foundation, which operates a Parkinson's disease research center at Virginia Tech funded by philanthropist Edward Via. The osteopathic school hopes to train doctors who will stay in western Virginia, ministering to the medical needs of an underserved rural population.

The school has received 1,400 applications for the fall class, from which administrators will accept about 150 students. Half of those will come from Virginia, North Carolina and the southern Appalachian region, said Bill King, assistant vice president for student services and marketing.

"The hope is that some will want to practice in those regions," King said. "Students tend to gravitate to where they go to school or do their residencies."

In the United States, only two kinds of physicians can be fully licensed to perform surgery and prescribe drugs - M.D.s and D.O.s. Nationwide, roughly one in 20 doctors is an osteopath. Yet until recently, most patients probably couldn't say which group their physician belonged to.

But with holistic health care becoming more trendy, and with experts constantly warning Americans to pay attention to diet and exercise, osteopathic medicine has found itself in tune with the times, according to its practitioners.

"A lot of people are interested these days in finding osteopathic physicians," said Maria Harris, executive director of the Virginia Osteopathic Medical Association. "The osteopathic philosophy is to treat the whole patient."

Harris said roughly 500 osteopathic physicians practice in Virginia.

The essence of the osteopathic philosophy is its emphasis on the body's nerves, joints, muscles and bones. The thinking is that, because everything is connected, a problem in one area can lead to problems elsewhere. Another central tenet is that a body in good working order is opti-mally designed to heal itself.

Osteopathic students therefore learn everything that students of traditional medical schools do, plus techniques to manipulate the bones and joints in order to keep the body in optimum condition.

"Osteopaths are really oriented to look at the greater picture, not just the diseased organ," said Dr. Peter C. Gent, an osteopathic physician who practices at the Richmond Center for Healing at Bellgrade. "We look for structural causes."

For instance, Gent said, a skiing accident can injure a patient's spine, compromising the nerves that branch out from there and ultimately choking off blood to an organ. A patient can come in with a stomach pain and have no idea it's related to the earlier skiing accident - until a doctor trained in osteopathy asks questions that lead back to the back injury.

Osteopathic physicians, like chiropractors, are trained to manipulate bones and joints to restore order to the body.

But osteopaths are also like M.D.s in that they treat coughs and colds, other common ailments, injuries, allergies and diseases. They prescribe medicines, and they can specialize in any area of medicine and perform surgery.

"There's really not all that much difference," said Dr. Kevin Harrison, an osteopath at the Richmond Center for Healing. "The main difference is we receive extra training in the neuro-musculoskeletal system. And we do take a little bit more of a holistic approach."

That holistic approach is what appealed to Jessica Jones, who grew up in Georgia and is now studying at the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine in Blacksburg. Jones, 27, said she suffered from constant ear infections as a child and eventually grew weary of being given so many antibiotics.

"I started to realize you don't have to take antibiotics when you're sick," she said. "I think I'll be giving patients more options as an osteopathic doctor."

Already, she said, she has learned how to treat colds through manipulating a patient's lymphatic system and learned how to adjust hip bones to help patients who have back pain from lugging young children. While applauding the work of allopathic physicians, or M.D.s, Jones said the more "natural" methods of osteopathic doctoring are right for her.

Student Beth Golding, 27, of Thomasville, N.C., said she first learned about osteopathy by listening to her grandmother rave about her doctor, a D.O. Golding then decided she wanted to be an osteopath after working for a chiropractor while a student at George Washington University.

"It amazes me, the number of conditions that can be treated without medication," Golding said, adding that she has learned to eliminate her husband's headaches by applying pressure to the back of his head.

And like Jones, Golding said she hopes to practice medicine close to the Blacksburg area.

King, the Edward Via school administrator, said the college has a faculty of 270, of which 40 are full time, to teach the next generation of osteopathic doctors. Of the 270, 40 are D.O.s and 190 are M.D.s. Most of the M.D.s work in hospitals in the Blacksburg area where the students do their clinical rotations.

With people increasingly looking for a holistic approach to healing, and with the nation's elderly population swelling, there is a growing demand for osteopathic physicians, King said. "This was the perfect time to start the school."
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If you dream is a MD, then dont let anything stop you. If you dont care, then go to DO. Very simple.
 
Here's what i would do. And I am dead serious about this:

I would move to Ohio and get residency there. I would take a few upper level science classes at Wright State, Akron, OSU or some other state school (on the cheap) and apply to Wright State, MCO and NEOUCOM WITHOUT taking the MCAT again.

Ohio has an embarrasment of riches when it comes to state supported medical schools with average MCAT scores below 30. Wright State's average last year was something like 26.8, as I recall. MCO's was only a bit over 28, I think. These are GOOD MD schools (I particularly liked Wright State), and with an upward trend in some tough science courses at a state undergrad school, you are likely to get into one of these.

That is what I would do if I were in your situation. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with DO. But if you want MD, then OHio is the place to be.

Judd
 
exmike said:
If you dream is a MD, then dont let anything stop you. If you dont care, then go to DO. Very simple.
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That's really what it comes down to... do what you please and will make you happy. You're going to spend a lot of money, get yourself in debt so you might as well be happy with your decision... it will be much easier in school as well to get through classes being content with your decision.
 
exmike said:
If you dream is a MD, then dont let anything stop you. If you dont care, then go to DO. Very simple.
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I second that.
 
Shangal said:
Why do you think an MD is better then a DO?
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it's not better by definition, but since we live in a society that respects MD's, i value that more. i wouldn't feel like a "real" doctor with a DO, simply put. I mean, in practice, i doubt DO's are better in any way, so i why would i choose the less respected option? Learning a few additional manipulation techniques is not going to make up for the fact i am not an MD and i'll be surrounded pretty much by MD rejects for 4 years (yeah, i know there is a handful who did turn down md schools, but who are we kidding...i've said this before: why be a matyr for a worthless cause?).

i have nothing against DO's, but i don't want to deal with all the bs. I would definately love to be a DO vs. doing anything else for a living, but being an MD means i get more opportunity and respect to boot.

Those things are also important, as most people here wouldn't want to be a doctor if it was viewed with disrespect. I mean, it can be a dirty job, dealing with disease and death, if society said you were nothing more than an educated garbageman, this forum would only have 5 members.

When you go to med school, most top kids will start gunning for the most competitive residencies just so "you can get the best training". or, just so you can have the bragging rights. just cut the bs.

in case you're wondering, i'm actually not a gunner anymore. i was for a while just to make sure i got in somewhere, but sometimes you do what you have to. i've just wanted to be a doctor for so long, i hope everything works out and it happens. i am humbled everyday that i have this opportunity. i seriously doubt its goign to happen though, dreams don't come true all that often. all i want to be is a doc, perhaps if i had bigger dreams those would go unfulfilled but at least i'd be a doctor, but no, thats all i want so it probably ain't going to happen.

anyway, if you are fine with a DO, do it, but if you have any serious qualms about it, perhaps you should give the MD the old college try.
 
I suggest that you shadow a D.O. (who practices OMM) to help with your decision.

I'm doing that right now... at first when I went in, I thought, OH CRAP, why didn't I apply to any M.D. schools?! What the hell am I getting myself into?! This OMM stuff looks like total bs, but then after talking to the patients and watching some more, I thought it was really amazing stuff. The doc I'm shadowing right now, got a diabetic off of her insulin shots (that she was on for 7 years) with 3 months of treatment!!! And she's been insulin free for 4 years now. dude, if thats not efing amazing, I dunno what is...

but yah, its all about your personal preference, but you also need to know what each one is about.

shadow a D.O.! :luck:
 
Dr.ImCute said:
I suggest that you shadow a D.O. (who practices OMM) to help with your decision.

I'm doing that right now... at first when I went in, I thought, OH CRAP, why didn't I apply to any M.D. schools?! What the hell am I getting myself into?! This OMM stuff looks like total bs, but then after talking to the patients and watching some more, I thought it was really amazing stuff. The doc I'm shadowing right now, got a diabetic off of her insulin shots (that she was on for 7 years) with 3 months of treatment!!! And she's been insulin free for 4 years now. dude, if thats not efing amazing, I dunno what is...

but yah, its all about your personal preference, but you also need to know what each one is about.

shadow a D.O.! :luck:
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yahhh , shadow a DO first 🙂 👍
 
Just for the record, DO student's don't have to take the USMLE to get into an MD residency. It depends on the specialty they're looking at and the individual programs. A whole lot of them accept COMLEX scores.
 
DrMom said:
Just for the record, DO student's don't have to take the USMLE to get into an MD residency. It depends on the specialty they're looking at and the individual programs. A whole lot of them accept COMLEX scores.
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This is true. My cousin, a KCOM grad, is doing a family practice residency at the University of Wisconsin and she got in with her COMPLEX scores.
 
JKDMed said:
I don't feel the need to earn the respect of a bunch of pompous dinguses. I don't consider medicine to be the pretigous uber career that a lot of people make it out to be. I see it as more of a humble public service.

I look for respect in other areas. I consider earning the respect of my Sifu much more worthwhile than some guy who spent most of his young adult life studying in a dorm room. Hell, I consider the respect of younger or older students more meaningful.
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I agree with you in that the career is a public service, but I'm not a pompous dingus 🙂

I also didn't spend most of my young adult life in a dorm room, I spent most of it in my fraternity house lol.
 
At 23 you have the leisure of pursuing the MD or a masters degree in Microbiology or anything you want to do. If it were me I would go to the Osteopathic Medical school. Every year more DOs participate in the match and more match into competitive specialties. By the time you graduate, the situation will be even better.
 
Clemson doc,

How did you find out where you were on South Carolina's waitlist? Will they tell you if you call?
 
tarheel04,

Yes, South Carolina will tell you where you are on their waiting list if you call. I called and asked to speak with Rebecca Mills, who is the registrar, and she was very helpful. She will not give you a specific number, but will tell you which third of the list you fall under. By the way, there is one list for in-state students and another list for out-of-state students. There are 58 students on the in-state list, but I'm not sure how many are on the out-of-state list. She was very candid with me, and gave me the "you should have alternate plans in case this doesn't work out" speech as well as discussing my options should I not be accepted and choose to reapply for next year. I asked her if I were almost certainly going to be rejected, and she said no, because the waiting list movement is very unpredictable. She recommended that I call back during the last week in May, or the first week in June, when she would have a better idea of how many spots are available.

As a result of my conversation with her, I made an appointment to meet with one of my interviewers who is on the committee. He was very helpful, but said that the "die has been cast," so to speak, and that there is nothing an applicant can do at this point to help his/her candidacy. He stated that every student is given an overall score based on GPA, MCAT, recommendations, interview impressions, etc. Then they are ranked and pulled off of the list in order. I asked him if he would recommend that I meet with the dean to show my interest and discuss things, and he said that it would not help, that even the dean is not allowed to move certain people ahead of others on the list. I wish the list were unranked, as is the case at some schools, so that you can be moved up based on desire and interest in the school. Oh well.

Thank you, everyone, for your advice regarding my situation. Please contribute if you have not done so already.
 
By the way, VCOM requires its students to take both USMLE and COMLEX, steps 1 and 2. It is my understanding that there is some overlap between the two, but finishing up year two and taking both of those tests will suck if I choose to attend there. Their reasoning is that it allows students the flexibility of applying to both M.D. and D.O. residencies, so I guess it makes sense in the long run.
 
I was in your situation last year, and it has turned out great for me. I was a accepted at the only DO school in Texas, and waitlisted at five other Texas medical schools. I thought long and hard about what I wanted to do with my life, and in the end, I turned down the DO school and came to Texas Tech to start graduate school. I had a 3.5 GPA and a 28 MCAT, so I felt I should just sit tight on my MCAT score. The difference for me was that I enrolled in a non-degree graduate school program in molecular biology here at Tech, and after only one year of graduate school, got into Tech's medical school.

I realized that in the long run, I still felt my career would be best benefitted by having MD after my name instead of DO. I was super excited when I found out I had gotten into TCOM, but after thinking long and hard, I decided to reapply. It has turned out wonderfully for me. I'll have two publications out by the time I leave in July, and will only have spent a year extra in grad school. I had a great time, too, this year. Traveling, hunting, and doing other things I wouldn't have been able to do if I'd gone ahead and went to TCOM.

My advice is to see if any programs around will let you do a non-degree program. Tech let not sign up for a specific degree for up to a year, and if I hadn't gotten in this time, I would have just gone ahead and gotten my master's. Again, this situation has turned out great for me, and I think you should try to explore this option before you sign on for the long term anywhere else.
 
Clemson Doc,

Thanks for the info. I'm out of state, so I don't have high hopes of getting in off the waitlist, although I really liked the school.
 
Actually when I was 23 (not that long ago, I'm 27 now) I was only accepted at a DO school. I also was really excited about the acceptance but still couldn't decide if I really wanted to go there. I defered my admission (can you do that at VCOM??) and took a year off. In that year I decided to go to grad school, did the MCAT again and reapplied. I got a 25 the first time and a 28 the 2nd. Still not all that high but enough this time to get me into 4 Ohio schools (I'm an OH resident) and waitlist at 1 out of state private. If you feel good about VCOM I would just go. But the concerns you stated sound really legitimate...young school, not so sure about match for residency, the cost. It would not put your life on hold that long to give yourself some time and possibly explore other options. If you can defer at VCOM that may be something to think about....
 
You have to go to VCOM. Your GPA is too low. Not sure how high you can pull that up even after post-bac courses. There is a vert distinct possibility that you will never get into a medical school. If you have 3.5 and 33 from Harvard, fine. Go ahead and reapply. But that's not the case.
 
Stay with the plan to graduate from a medical school in 2008. Do not reapply.
I know that you don't. If you want a rematch in GPA thing, do it in your med school. Good luck
 
Okay, I could not resist any longer . . .

I just want to give you something to think about:

MD/DO, IMHO is not the issue. The bigger issue by the time you get out of school is the number of mid-level practitioners who want to increase their scopes of practice (some of them are doing it now), in all likelihood infringing upon yours in the process. I have no problem with mid-level practitioners (I even planned to become not too long ago) as long as they stick to their scopes of practice. The MD/DO thing is for the pre-meds who are too preoccupied with the letters behind their names and not the big picture upon completing training. The VAST majority of your patients (99.9%+) will not care (as a side note I know MD's who have been discriminated against by patients because of their gender and/or the color of their skin, so the letters were irrelevant). By the time you get out of school you will be a physician. You're 23 and still young, so good luck to which ever path you decide to take. Just remember that either one will allow you to practice medicine. (You may want to see if you can contact some DO's in the speciality area you would like to puruse to see if they can give you some additional insight).

🙂
 
I'd go to the DO school. You can't garantee that you'll have more sucess next year but you can garantee yourself that the DO school won't accept you a second time.
There is nothing wrong with the education recieved by DO's. Anyway I believe you get out of your education what you put in. You can go to a state school and get a first rate education and I think the same is true for DO programs.
 
Hey Clemson,
A quick question -- have you actually gotten into the gtown SMP? I know the MCAT cutoff is set at 27, so georgetown may not be an option for another year or so until you retake the MCAT if you truly have your heart set on Gtown (there are similar programs that are less stringent -- see post bacc forum). Then its a year of gtown, then med school. That's a lot of extra work just for two letters. I personally would do the VCOM in your case, but that's an entirely personal choice.
 
Hey Clemson,

I too was accepted to VCOM but the M1 budget given for the year was $52,000 for everything (tuition, school fees including COMLEX and USMLE, living expenses, computer, etc...) and not $70,000...are you planning to take out more private loans?
 
Personally I would goto the DO program you were accepted to.
 
Thewonderer said:
You have to go to VCOM. Your GPA is too low. Not sure how high you can pull that up even after post-bac courses. There is a vert distinct possibility that you will never get into a medical school. If you have 3.5 and 33 from Harvard, fine. Go ahead and reapply. But that's not the case.
Click to expand...

I think its completely naive to think that if you turn down this school that you've sealed your fate forever...raising your MCAT score by 3 points or more will do wonders as well as maintaining around a 3.5 at a graduate program. Don't think at anytime that you are completely out of options. A lot of good info has been posted and I think ultimately it's just a personal decision...however, don't "sell yourself short" with a DO if it's not something you truly want to do.
 
Thanks for all of the responses thus far, everyone.

I have not been accepted to Georgetown SMP. In fact, I just found out about it a few days ago. The application deadline is June 1, and I realize that my numbers are borderline for getting into the program. I have heard several people say that there is a great deal of variability, though (i.e., people reguarly get in with numbers lower than that). I know that I need to decide ASAP whether or not I'm going to apply.

The whole idea of not attending VCOM arose when it became clear that there was a very real chance that attending South Carolina might not be an option. I vacillate several times each day as to whether I want to go ahead to VCOM or roll the dice, improve my MCAT score and grades, and reapply for next year. One minute I think, "I'm 23, putting medical school off for a year isn't a big deal in the long run, D.C. would be an awesome experience, and it's worth it if I would be happier getting an M.S. and going to my dream school." The next minute, I'm thinking, "It probably doesn't matter where I get my medical degree, because I'll be a doctor anyway, be finished a year sooner, and won't have to risk reapplying for fall 2005 and not getting in anywhere."

I agree with what someone else said about my grades and MCAT scores being a huge liabilities. I realize that my overall GPA won't change much as a result of a graduate program, but getting a 3.5 or above in a master's program would show admissions committees a lot - especially since most of those are medical school classes. I know I am capable of doing well academically. My 3.0 in undergrad was a combination of graduating in two and a half years, and lacking the maturity when it came to study habits and class attendance. In addition, those courses would hopefully make my first year of medical school somewhat easier since some of the topics would be review.

I know that I can improve my MCAT score, because I was hitting around 30 on practice exams last August. Unfortunately, I ran out of time on the PS section of the real thing and left 11 questions totally blank (I still managed an 8, but I know that probably cost me a couple of points). I work full-time, and I would work all day, get home around 6:00, and study MCAT until midnight or so. I am resigning from my job at the end of June, so I would have all of July and part of August to study for the MCAT should I decide to go that route. I must say, though, that I really studied long and hard to get that 26. I don't know if I want to go through that again.

This thread isn't about some hangup I have about the letters behind my name. I know very much about the D.O. philosophy, and have a good bit of experience shadowing a D.O. My concerns, as stated in my original post, deal mostly with VCOM and the opportunities it will provide me. I think it is going to be a great school, with impressive technology and facilities, but I don't want to be held back because the school has no history with residency directors. If I attend VCOM this fall, I will be part of the second class at the school. That could be a positive, because they will really want our input and it could be special to be among the first to give the school its reputation. It could also be bad, because we could be guinea pigs while the kinks are worked out. Finally, I have already discussed my concerns about the debt after school. There is a lot of difference between private and public school tuition, and I'm not sure how long I would have to pinch pennies in order to repay those debts. Then again, I understand that my grades and test score don't exactly allow me to be too choosy at this point. I realize that I was very blessed to be accepted at VCOM, especially since I know a lot of people with better "numbers" than I who were quickly rejected there.

Perhaps my concerns aren't valid, but I feel that I owe it to myself to evaluate my options now while I still have the time. After all, this is my future, and I've worked too hard not to carefully consider my options. I realize that it's my decision, but everyone's input is certainly appreciated. Please keep the comments coming.
 
Seems to me like you have already decided what you want and you are trying to figure out what you should actually do. If your are not sure that going to VCOM is not what you want at this point, don't go. You owe it to yourself to do what will make you happy in the end. Take another shot at the MCAT, consider special master's programs, etc. Then when you have decided that you are the best applicant you are ever going to be, apply to both MD & DO schools. Even if you end up at DO school after all, you will at least know in your heart that you did everything you could to give yourself the most options at the beginning of your medical career. Plus, you will have gained more life experiences, and most of your first year of medical school will practically be a review.

BTW, I feel that although you can't go wrong with an MD next to your name, going to DO school can confer particular advantages for your future as a physician. Not only is osteopathy becoming more mainstream, but osteopaths have a tight-knit network and really help each other. I know a DO cardiologist (who incidentally was named by USNews as one of the top 50 or so cardiologists in the nation). This guy loves his job and his patients love him back. He says that he wouldn't trade his DO degree for anything. He also said that the other osteopaths in the community refer patients only to him as opposed to MD cardiologists. Although osteopathy is trying to make a name for itself, DO's are very supportive of each other and help each other whenever possible. This translates into a busy practice.
 
Ok, here's my take on this....
Firstly there is a big hangup of what initials follow a person's name here on SDN....HOWEVER that hangup is mainly between pre-med students. There is not this huge hangup about initials when you are a doctor. Is there sterotyping... yes....Is it alot ...No.

Think of it this way, you will always be dealing with people who think they are better than you and it will have nothing to do with whether you are a DO or a MD. A lot of surgeons look down at primary care docs. Does that mean the primary care docs are going to hang their head in shame....Heck no.

DO =MD=Doctor

You know at VCOM we will have to take both DO and MD boards. Lots of work... you bet. But with both scores you have just a good a chance to get either residency. The board scores will prove whether you have the knowledge to be a doctor in either residency. VCOM is new but they have a staff of seasoned professionals who are valued in the profession. Dean Rawlin's reputation is high up there, so don't worry about the newness and whether you will penalized because it is a new school.

D.C. is very expensive and the post-bac program will cost a bunch, so keep that in mind when you are kicking around the costs of things. I won't even go into the traffic problems up here. TRAFFIC IS AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are young and if you want to skip this opportunity to go to medical school hoping to try and improve your stats and get into an MD school, then do it. But what if you aren't able to improve? What if there are just so many qualified applicants that you just can't get in iregardless of your stats? What if you run out of time on the MCAT again? What if your GPA lowers because of your post-grad work because the profs stinks or you get sick or the classes don't make sense, or etc, etc, etc....... Where will you be then and how will you deal with it?

Are you coming to accepted student's day on Saturday? Maybe that would help you decide if VCOM is for you. Only you can make the choice. But please don't make your decision based on 2 little initials at the end of your name. You will be a doctor and what you make of that is going to be the only thing that matters. What kind of doctor you will be to your patients is what is going to be important to you and them and NOT the initials that follow your name.

I really wish you could find some DOs to talk to and see that the DO education will provide you with a great oportunity to become a doctor and that it really isn't an issue out in the real health care world.

Good luck. All my best to you.
 
vandypatty said:
I think its completely naive to think that if you turn down this school that you've sealed your fate forever...raising your MCAT score by 3 points or more will do wonders as well as maintaining around a 3.5 at a graduate program. Don't think at anytime that you are completely out of options. A lot of good info has been posted and I think ultimately it's just a personal decision...however, don't "sell yourself short" with a DO if it's not something you truly want to do.
Click to expand...

I disagree. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. Anyone who tells you differently hasn't lived enough life to give good advice.
Numbers are just numbers and relying on the percieved infalibility of a few more MCAT points is foolishness at best.
 
Clemson Doc,

Again, I would like to add that the debt issue, albeit rather high, is not as high as you say...$52,000 not $70,000
for the whole year which includes the COMLEX and USMLE testing fee, living expenses including rent, cable TV, and internet. This debt load is comparable to other schools I have interviewed at and really is not that high.

As far as newness, what medical school hasn't been brand new before? They've all been there and the students probably had the same worries.

I agree with AmyB and I don't want to push you. But at the same time, nothing is guaranteed in the future. That is something to look at too. Applicants to med school have been slowly increasing since 2002. You never know, you could be taken off the waitlist at the state school or not, but yet you still have the VCOM acceptance. Go to the Accepted Students Day as your second look, talk to some more DO's, and then make a decision. If you truly want to be a physician, MD/DO and cost shouldn't really matter.

Make sure you are happy with the decision you are about to make because you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life. Good luck!
 
Clemson Doc- who did you interview with at USC?
 
Anesthesia is considered moderately competitive. Here are the statistics from the Allopathic Match for the number of DOs matching into Anesthesia. Remember how few DOs graduate every year, and note how quickly the number has grown since 1996. This doesn't include any DOs pursuing Anesthesia through the Osteopathic Match.

1996: 14
1997: 7
1998: 17
1999: 35
2000: 55
2001: 107
2002: 89
2003: 126
2004: 133

Source
http://www.grogono.com/nrmp/2004/Recruitment04.pdf
 
Thank you for your advice, Amy B. You know a lot, and I respect your willingness to help people on both the Allopathic and Osteopathic boards. Unfortunately, you seem to have misunderstood some of my positions.

1. I am not obsessed with the letters following my name. I did, however, point out that some residency directors are. Some people in the medical profession are. Does it matter that my options for residency decrease somewhat because of those letters, or that a few ignorant old-school M.D.'s will turn their noses up at me? Probably not, but it's worth considering before I throw $200,000 and at least seven years of my life toward becoming an osteopath. I think everyone owes it to themselves to consider these issues, just as I am, before finalizing any plans.

I am not nearly as concerned about my title as I am with my options when I graduate. I fooled around as an undergrad, for the most part, and I am determined to work my tail off in medical school to prove to myself that I can really achieve in medicine. I don't want to get turned down because of the initials following my name, or where I went to school. And if I go to VCOM, hopefully I won't. 🙂

2. I have issues with the difference in tuition between one of my state medical schools and a private school like VCOM.

By the way, box29, I need to clarify what I meant with the $70,000 estimate (which was a generous one). I realize that VCOM is $52,000 a year, but my state school estimates ~$36,000 a year, including tuition, fees, rent, food, etc. Over the course of four years, that comes out to $64,000 total. That, Amy B, is my biggest concern with VCOM. Perhaps it's not a big deal, but my business/finance background causes me to think in these terms. To me, that is a lot of money to repay over the course of my professional career.

3. As I stated previously, I have experience shadowing a D.O. and understand the D.O. philosophy. I have the utmost respect for him as a physician, and you can definitely tell that he cares a ton for his patients. He went to NYCOM and did his residency at Columbia University in IM (this was in the late 80's), so he is obviously a smart guy and is proof that you can still get a good residency as a D.O. He has been incredibly helpful to me, and I realize the value of what he does on a regular basis.

At this point, I'm leaning toward just going to VCOM. Although the riskiness of retaking the MCAT, reapplying, and knowing I have to do well in a Master's program appeals to my adventurous side, the practical side of me says that it makes a lot more sense to take the sure thing and go to VCOM. This is like the angel on one shoulder/devil on the other deal!

VCOM is a good school, with talented faculty and great facilities, and I think that I will get a very good education there that will allow me to really help my patients. Learning OMM will give me an extra tool at my disposal. I will try not to worry about accreditation, the extra debt, or the fact that I am not the least bit interested in rural medicine. I will not let myself get bored in a small college town (I can just get my big city fix during residency). 😀

Whatever I decide, I know it's going to turn out great. Thanks again everyone.
 
I can see why you thought I might have been coming down on you about what you may or may not be thinking about the initials. I reread my post and realized my first sentence sounded like I was meaning you. I took out the you and changed my wording to show what I was trying to say. Sorry it sounded like I was being harsh to you, that was not my intention.

I understand what you are saying about the money aspect of going to med school. I also am worried about that, especially because I just today signed my promissory note for this year. Obviously if you get into your state school this year, that would be great for you. I assumed we were talking about if you didn't get in and you would have to pay for a master's or post bac program. Some of them can be very expensive so the extra money and time you would take to do that plus have to pay again to reapply and pay for secondaries and interviews could really add up. Then there is moving to a new city to take the grad program and of course the dreaded idea that you may not get in the year you reapply. All things to be considered.

I gave up an acceptance once and have questioned my motives behind that decision for 3 years now, so I am just trying to help you not make the same mistake. If you chose to reapply, I will hope that you get in and then you won't question your reasoning for giving up an acceptance and we can all be very happy for the way things turn out for you.

If I have offended you, I am truely sorry. It was not my intention, which is why I editted my previous post.

I hope that you hear from your state school ASAP. I do wish you the best in whatever decision you make. And if you decide to attend VCOM I shall look forward to meeting you. 🙂 😎
 
unless you care what pre-meds think about you, because everyone else will think of you as "a doctor", and won't care which two letters come after your name. my stepdad is a D.O. and for a long time, i had no idea that there was a difference (wasn't looking into med school at that point...). if you are just as well qualified, it seems like there's no point in putting in a great deal more effort (think about all you have done up to this point!) to try and do something that might not even happen.
that said, if you have a bad feeling about being a D.O. deep down, don't do it. but from your post i gather that that's not the case.

good luck in your decision. 🙂
 
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