Anthrax vs. Rodenticide

[Airborne Vet]

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I was hoping some high speed large animal people around here could answer a question of mine, or at least ask someone at their school who might have an answer for them.

Both anthrax and anti-coagulant rodenticides have very similar post mortem signs, but both require completely different samples to be obtained for a laboratory diagnosis. When rodenticide is suspected, you’re supposed to obtain a sample of the rumen contents, whereas the last thing you want to do is open up the body if you suspect anthrax. Does anyone have any information as to how to distinguish one from the other in a safe and timely manner w/o sending samples to the lab?

I’ve asked both microbiology and toxicology professors this question. The microbiologist told me it was a question for a toxicologist and the toxicologist told me to ask the microbiologist. Great.

I’m just curious, being as how Army veterinarians work in several regions of the world where naturally occurring anthrax poses a threat and farmers use whatever means possible to protect their crops from rodents…leading to possible exposure.

 

[Angelo84]

Well you could take a blood sample and look for anthrax yourself before cutting open the animal. Could you pass a stomach tube on a dead animal? That could get you rumen contents without opening the body cavity. Also in my toxicology course I got the impression that dogs/cats/ferrets are more likely to eat anticoagulent rodenticide then farm animals.

 

[InfiniVet]

In my tox notes I have it that you can submit liver, plasma, serum, feces, spleen and kidney in addition to stomach contents.

I think your best bet is to call up the diagnostic lab and ask them =)

 

[chris03333]

I was hoping some high speed large animal people around here could answer a question of mine, or at least ask someone at their school who might have an answer for them.

Both anthrax and anti-coagulant rodenticides have very similar post mortem signs, but both require completely different samples to be obtained for a laboratory diagnosis. When rodenticide is suspected, you’re supposed to obtain a sample of the rumen contents, whereas the last thing you want to do is open up the body if you suspect anthrax. Does anyone have any information as to how to distinguish one from the other in a safe and timely manner w/o sending samples to the lab?

I’ve asked both microbiology and toxicology professors this question. The microbiologist told me it was a question for a toxicologist and the toxicologist told me to ask the microbiologist. Great.

I’m just curious, being as how Army veterinarians work in several regions of the world where naturally occurring anthrax poses a threat and farmers use whatever means possible to protect their crops from rodents…leading to possible exposure.

I would just assume anthrax and not open the animal. If you suspect rodenticide you can talk to the farmer and see if/where they keep the rodenticide and go from there. Better safe than sorry.

 

[TSUJC]

Airborne Vet - What a Great Question!!!!! (I don't have much to add other than that lol)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Taking a good history like chris said would help a lot (do they even HAVE rodenticide? Checking sheds and storage areas, etc. Have you done any plowing or soil upturning recently? Anyone you don't know seen on the farm? Only one animal or multiple animals? was this very sudden or were any clinical signs observed, etc). If it was just an animal down in the field with no signs except epistaxis or other orifice bleeding...I'd assume the worst and call the state vet.

 

[chagheill]

Also in my toxicology course I got the impression that dogs/cats/ferrets are more likely to eat anticoagulent rodenticide then farm animals.

It's not unknown, though. I personally saw a case when several cows at a local dairy here got into rat poison last year. The vet I work for said it's rare but he's seen a half dozen or so cases of it over the years.

 

[Angelo84]

It's not unknown, though. I personally saw a case when several cows at a local dairy here got into rat poison last year. The vet I work for said it's rare but he's seen a half dozen or so cases of it over the years.

I agree that cows could get into rodentacide but in an antrax endemic area I would put anthrax higher on the list than rodentacide poisoning in a dairy cow.

 

[chagheill]

Just asked the vet I worked for how he'd treat the situation described by the OP - rodenticide poisoning will often cause massive hematomas on the cow from bumping into things over time. If the cow doesn't have these hematomas, call the Ag office.

 

[Bill59]

Rodenticide would be a good name for a heavy metal band.

 

[david594]

Rodenticide would be a good name for a heavy metal band.

We have a local hard rock band named Fatal Plus.

 

[chris03333]

Just asked the vet I worked for how he'd treat the situation described by the OP - rodenticide poisoning will often cause massive hematomas on the cow from bumping into things over time. If the cow doesn't have these hematomas, call the Ag office.

Maybe it is the non-farmer in me but I say forget that mess and call the state vet anyway😉.

 

[Airborne Vet]

Thanks for the great feedback everybody.

BTW, both of the professors that I asked also work at one of the state's diagnostic labs...not to say somebody else there wouldn't know…but mildly disappointing.

Everything I've learned also suggests most animals poisoned with rodenticide are small animals. However, I would suspect quite a bit that info is gleaned from Western countries where farmers on the whole are fairly well educated and restrictions in place are stricter than in regions such as the Middle East.
Some possible scenarios:
1) Accidental contamination of feed with rodenticide at either a granary or farmer's barn.
2) An insurgent belligerently contaminates feed at a major distributor in an effort to further destabilize the region.
3) Farmer Muhammad’s prized milk cow, Betsy, wanders into an area she shouldn't be and ingests rodenticide. Farmer M. didn’t see where she went or what she got into.

The 1st and 2nd scenarios would be relatively easy, considering you'd have many more than just one sick animal. But #3 is more along the lines of what I'm considering.

In addition:
As for obtaining a history from farmer… In many Arab cultures, it is considered a great dishonor for a man to answer a question with “I don’t know”. To compound the problem, they will proceed to tell Americans what they think the Americans want to hear, rather than the truth. Any history obtained would be suspect at best. They don’t do this with a malicious intent; it’s just different cultures clashing.

I asked this question b/c vets in these areas often don’t have the luxury of a state diagnostic laboratory to send samples and often have to make a decision on the ground.

If I were in this situation, you bet I’d leave it alone if anything was shady.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this, it’s been a crazy week.

 

[chris03333]

Thanks for the great feedback everybody.

BTW, both of the professors that I asked also work at one of the state's diagnostic labs...not to say somebody else there wouldn't know…but mildly disappointing.

Everything I've learned also suggests most animals poisoned with rodenticide are small animals. However, I would suspect quite a bit that info is gleaned from Western countries where farmers on the whole are fairly well educated and restrictions in place are stricter than in regions such as the Middle East.
Some possible scenarios:
1) Accidental contamination of feed with rodenticide at either a granary or farmer's barn.
2) An insurgent belligerently contaminates feed at a major distributor in an effort to further destabilize the region.
3) Farmer Muhammad’s prized milk cow, Betsy, wanders into an area she shouldn't be and ingests rodenticide. Farmer M. didn’t see where she went or what she got into.

The 1st and 2nd scenarios would be relatively easy, considering you'd have many more than just one sick animal. But #3 is more along the lines of what I'm considering.

In addition:
As for obtaining a history from farmer… In many Arab cultures, it is considered a great dishonor for a man to answer a question with “I don’t know”. To compound the problem, they will proceed to tell Americans what they think the Americans want to hear, rather than the truth. Any history obtained would be suspect at best. They don’t do this with a malicious intent; it’s just different cultures clashing.

I asked this question b/c vets in these areas often don’t have the luxury of a state diagnostic laboratory to send samples and often have to make a decision on the ground.

If I were in this situation, you bet I’d leave it alone if anything was shady.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this, it’s been a crazy week.

Yes but there are also other differentials for the same presentation that the history may not help (lightning strike for instance) and there are some features you can look for (like if it has been less than 72 hours and there is no rigor mortis then anthrax moves WAY up on the list. You can try to get samples from blood in the soil under the animal and send it out, but....

When it comes to anthrax (even if it is just a slight possibility) do NOT mess with it!!!👍

 

[projekt]

Right. Rodenticide shouldn't prevent rigor mortis. Good tip!