Anti Aging Supplements for the Brain

[mafunk]

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So I've been thinking.... I need to take really good care of myself in order to succeed in this premed (and hopefully med) path. I teach yoga, eat well and don't drink.

Anyone taking supplements to preserve you 'brain power'. I'm interested to hear your comments on this article. Please, thoughtful comments and no flaming me for being interested in supplements...

http://www.stopagingnow.com/liveinthenow/article/the-7-best-brain-boosting-supplements

 

[whouse]

Gumbo. Lots of gumbo.

 

[RFHawks]

OP, while taking vitamins is good for your overall health, as far as maintaining brain function to get through pre-med, med... none of these will help you. At least for med school, the majority of trickery lies in good memorization techniques and practice, practice, practice. Pre-med on the other hand requires the same but also thinking abstractly for some classes. The key to success in these areas is practice and more practice.

I once had a brilliant physician tell me almost everyone that has strong fortitude has what it takes to be a great physician. Getting in however, one needs to be a genius. Simply not true. Practice, Practice, Practice. One should strive to become more efficient at everything they do, including studying and committing things to memory.

Hope that helps!

 

[whouse]

OP, while taking vitamins is good for your overall health, as far as maintaining brain function to get through pre-med, med... none of these will help you. At least for med school, the majority of trickery lies in good memorization techniques and practice, practice, practice. Pre-med on the other hand requires the same but also thinking abstractly for some classes. The key to success in these areas is practice and more practice.

I once had a brilliant physician tell me almost everyone that has strong fortitude has what it takes to be a great physician. Getting in however, one needs to be a genius. Simply not true. Practice, Practice, Practice. One should strive to become more efficient at everything they do, including studying and committing things to memory.

Hope that helps!

In summary:

Lots of practice.
Lots of gumbo.

 

[Law2Doc]

... I teach yoga, eat well and don't drink.
...

LOL. You are far off the mark. First, to prepare for becoming a doctor, you need to lose the yoga and do something that will keep your heart rate up. Intense cardio. When running for a Code, you will wish you practiced running up stadium steps instead of the downward dog. Second, eating well doesn't prepare your body well for the shock it will face in the clinical years of med school and residency. Hospital food is high starch, high sugar. You will survive on energy bars, energy drinks, chips, poptarts, oreos. If you don't teach your body to perform like a well oiled machine on these, you will be behind the eight ball when you find that every time you come up for air and have time to eat nothing is open but the vending machines. Third, most medical journals suggest that a glass of red wine a day is cardioprotective. Moderation is where it's at.

As for the vitamins, I wouldnt waste the money. The typical US diet gets 100% of what your body can use in terms of vitamins. Everything else you take simply gets excreted, unused. Save your time and just flush away your cash. It's a scam. The FDA doesn't really regulate supplements, and as a result they make all sorts of grandiose claims that have never been borne out. We don't really have a good cause for Alzheimer's yet, so claiming that something can prevent it is BS.

 

[mafunk]

LOL. You are far off the mark. First, to prepare for becoming a doctor, you need to lose the yoga and do something that will keep your heart rate up. Intense cardio. When running for a Code, you will wish you practiced running up stadium steps instead of the downward dog. Second, eating well doesn't prepare your body well for the shock it will face in the clinical years of med school and residency. Hospital food is high starch, high sugar. You will survive on energy bars, energy drinks, chips, poptarts, oreos. If you don't teach your body to perform like a well oiled machine on these, you will be behind the eight ball when you find that every time you come up for air and have time to eat nothing is open but the vending machines. Third, most medical journals suggest that a glass of red wine a day is cardioprotective. Moderation is where it's at.

With respect, I will have to disagree with you here. I hope that you are just poking fun and not serious. But if you are serious....

1. Yoga is much more than down dog - advanced practice improves flexibility, increases physical strength, keeps one feeling/looking/thinking younger, reduces stress hormones in the body, etc. I've helped many people heal with yoga. Thanks to yoga my rather severe scoliosis is under control, and even though an xray of my spine looks like a twisted snake, i look totally normal. These things are all extremely valuable in maintaining health and clear thinking. Plus, I do run, hike, lift, etc. But honestly, running these other things are not nearly as beneficial as yoga, imho. There is a cardio yoga - just check out an advanced Ashtanga class and you will see what I mean. I see so many 'jocks' come who take my yoga classes that struggle through a full yoga practice due to tightness, lack of coordination, unbalanced muscles, and an inability to concentrate.

2. 'Training' to survive on pop-tarts is the silliest thing I have heard. Even on the go one can plan ahead and eat healthy. Trust me I will never eat that kind of food. When I was raising 2 young children and working 70 plus hours a week trying to build a business I ate well and will continue to do so. And that was when I didn't have money. As a yoga instructor and personal trainer (my hobbies), I am disciplined at all times about my intake and would continue that through a stressful experience like medical school. It is well worth the time and money to eat properly. Numerous studies (by physicians) show the link between nutrition and brain function. Please don't pollute yourself with that terrible food.

3. Wine - Many of the beneficial ingredients in red wine are already present in a well rounded, whole food diet. Without the downside of alcohol.

Sorry - I was shocked by your statements and had to say something. As one whose career is to help others with their health, I feel a doctor should practice healthy living. Assuming I become a physician or PA, I want my patients to live a healthy lifestyle so that I don't have to prescribe them so many dang drugs. Preventive medicine is so crucial. If more people and physicians embraced and modeled it our health system and society would be much better off.

 

[mafunk]

😱 my response is OTT - guess I'm more of a health/yoga zealot than I realized

 

[jl lin]

😱 my response is OTT - guess I'm more of a health/yoga zealot than I realized

I agree with you, but some things Law2doc says are true. . . in terms of living off of energy bars and shock to the body. lol I can't tell you how many residents are tearing into energy bars and pouring down the coffee and soda and what not.

I disagree w/ him a lot about the supplements. You have to do your research. Look at Dr. Sahelian, MD a Jefferson Medicine graduate. http://www.raysahelian.com/
I am sure some people here and elsewhere will take some issue with him. I think he tries to look at research here and in abroad.

Do people make money off of supplements? Yep. Is it as much as pharm co.'s, even w/ them trying to make up for FDA approval time? No.

Many physicians are a least taking things like more Vitamin D3, C, and other antioxidants, CoQ10, Omega 3 and 6, ( good stuff like Krill oil--even if you ate enough good quality fish, you'd still have to worry about mercury and other junk, b/c there's almost nothing safe from pollution. It's about limiting it as much as possible.

Pretty much the whole staff at vitacost.com is made of bonafide allopathic physicians. . .one, retired, was one of my docs, and he was excellent.

I do agree with Lawtodoc about cardio. Yoga is great too, but cardio is vital.

I enjoy a glass of red wine or two per week. My schedule is so all over the place that it just wouldn't work to have a glass of wine every night. I don't drink at all if I feel something coming on--like a rhinovirus (I work with kids, my immune system is quirky.), b/c alcohol depresses the immune system in my opinion--at least if you drink over a certain amount--and why put anything extra on the gut or liver when you are sick or at least will be. Also, alchohol has been shown to interfere with REM sleep, but I think the studies NIH referred to showed this was dose related.

All I can tell you was that I had to see a BC rheumatologists many times a year before moving to certain nutritional changes (including supplements--you miss your bcomplex, you feel it for sure--just like if you get into the habit of going for a run regularly and you start missing those runs, your body gives you an attitude about it--and you start to feel it and you feel more stressed.) and exercise and such, and after making these healthy changes, I see him maybe once a year. I have a serious illness that has caused me many health problems including serious problems with pregnancy and other issues. My mother has it also. She has refused to "stay on the wagon" so to speak. She sees the rheumatologists practically every other month, and struggles with many things. (Yes, I realize she is older than I am, but I was diagnosed first--very young and had symptoms and messed up labs a lot longer.) Following these changes has helped me a lot. We can't know how much they would have helped my mother, b/c she hasn't been consistent with following them.

mafunk, I think you are on the right track. Some physicians are more into wellness and some aren't. People will argue stuff back and forth. At the end of the day you have to find what works for you. Only you know your own body. Frankly, I am amazed when I see so many nurses and even some physicians smoking. I mean it's their business, but honestly, I think it's a bit of a PR problem. The public and individual patients watch nurses and physicians; so they do set an example.

 

[n3xa]

A glass of wine in and the room starts to spin. 🙁

I wish I had more time to fit yoga into my schedule. It really helped my test anxiety ten years ago when I first started taking science classes (I can't believe I just typed that 😱).

Since I don't have much time, I do a bit of circuit training. Keeping up my strength comes in handy when transporting people of size.

 

[RFHawks]

In summary:

Lots of practice.
Lots of gumbo.

🤣!

 

[RFHawks]

LOL. You are far off the mark. First, to prepare for becoming a doctor, you need to lose the yoga and do something that will keep your heart rate up. Intense cardio. When running for a Code, you will wish you practiced running up stadium steps instead of the downward dog. Second, eating well doesn't prepare your body well for the shock it will face in the clinical years of med school and residency. Hospital food is high starch, high sugar. You will survive on energy bars, energy drinks, chips, poptarts, oreos. If you don't teach your body to perform like a well oiled machine on these, you will be behind the eight ball when you find that every time you come up for air and have time to eat nothing is open but the vending machines. Third, most medical journals suggest that a glass of red wine a day is cardioprotective. Moderation is where it's at.

These are truths. And from what I've learned, nothing will prepare one for clinical years and internship/res. Also, for what it's worth, Law2Doc's comment on eating is very real. I've met young docs that ate healthy worked out and were very fit, only to lose weight during internship year cause they are surviving off of vending machine food b/c it is the only thing available to eat at the one time during your 24 hour shift that you have time. Think about cooking before hand? Not during internship. I bet you'd rather sleep. Most interns I've talked to don't even have time to laundry let alone prepare your meals in advance for the next 24 hours you have to stay up.

 

[jl lin]

These are truths. And from what I've learned, nothing will prepare one for clinical years and internship/res. Also, for what it's worth, Law2Doc's comment on eating is very real. I've met young docs that ate healthy worked out and were very fit, only to lose weight during internship year cause they are surviving off of vending machine food b/c it is the only thing available to eat at the one time during your 24 hour shift that you have time. Think about cooking before hand? Not during internship. I bet you'd rather sleep. Most interns I've talked to don't even have time to laundry let alone prepare your meals in advance for the next 24 hours you have to stay up.

Yes, hence the need to always pack protein bars and apples. Shoot being a "mere" RN means I live off of these and water at least half the time already. The other thing is, in the hospital, especially in the units on nights, everyone tends to order out A LOT. Can you say pizza and Chinese? Maybe it's an inner city thing.

 

[21p]

you may want to check out the http://www.imminst.org/ for information on anti-aging supplements. Some of those folks are pretty hardcore imo, but hey.. so was Linus Pauling...err... not a good example.

I'm 29 and have adhd... here's what I've noticed makes a difference..

fish oil for memory concentration and mood
multi-vitamin duh
cinnamon tablets in the morn for blood glucose stabilization
memantine for memory
adhd medication for concentration

here's what I can't tell making a difference, but I'm told it does...

resveratrol (L-isomer) for anti-oxidants


I feel like i've made a good balance with the above regimen, and have noticed many positive effects on my ability to focus and remember tiny details needed for difficult pre-med classes.

Who the hell knows what med school will be like. I'm not gonna pretend to have a clue, because I think you can easily limit your flexibility by anticipating the unknown... have a good day!

 

[baj6974]

I drink the acai berry juice that's in a purple bottle. I can really tell a difference in the way I feel after drinking it. It also helps w/ memory and the brain. I started walking on the treadmill every couple days for 30-35 minutes and weights every now & then. I am 6ft and 160'ish and always been on the thin side. The main thing I have decreased diet wise is meats and burgers, if you cook alot of meats,fish,chicken,etc... don't fry fish or chicken,but bake it if you do fry it, use a george foreman type grill deal that traps all the grease underneath. I'm more concerned heart health more than brain/memory function. I also like the vitamin waters and I am trying to cut out the colas and not so much black tea, I also feel better when I drink green tea. Not to mention smoothies, but smoothies tend to mess up my stomach, can't stand wine or alcohol, it also messes up my stomach after I had a open appy w/ abscess....ever since I can't drink any alcohol.But I do smoke a cigar or 2 a week.

 

[n3xa]

1.) Fiber One bars and all any generic high-fiber granola bars for that matter: NEVER AGAIN. Or at least eat them at home first.

2.) Yes to cardio. It's become tradition that after morning anatomy lab on Tuesdays, the post-bacc students take over the bball court and hash out the stress for an ~hour. The school gym is free. I jump at every opportunity to make trips to the pharmacy/labs from the ED when I volunteer because that = more walking for me.

3.) Some hospitals have a really nice salad bar and I wish this was the case at every teaching hospital at the very least. That's how I lost weight and got back into shape as a graduate student at UW Madison.

 

[startoverat40]

Mg has recently been shown to improve memory (maybe it's because ATP exists in the body as Mg-ATP?)
getting enough sleep has been shown to improve brain function
cardiovascular exercise has been shown to improve brain function

 

[Law2Doc]

you may want to check out the http://www.imminst.org/ for information on anti-aging supplements. Some of those folks are pretty hardcore imo, but hey.. so was Linus Pauling...err... not a good example.

I'm 29 and have adhd... here's what I've noticed makes a difference..

fish oil for memory concentration and mood
multi-vitamin duh
cinnamon tablets in the morn for blood glucose stabilization
memantine for memory
adhd medication for concentration

here's what I can't tell making a difference, but I'm told it does...

resveratrol (L-isomer) for anti-oxidants


I feel like i've made a good balance with the above regimen, and have noticed many positive effects on my ability to focus and remember tiny details needed for difficult pre-med classes.

Who the hell knows what med school will be like. I'm not gonna pretend to have a clue, because I think you can easily limit your flexibility by anticipating the unknown... have a good day!

Honestly the only thing you listed that has EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE support behind it is the ADHD meds. The multivitamins shouldn't have any effect if you eat the typical US diet -- the only ones in this country with any degree of vitamin deficiency tend to be alcohol and substance abusers who forget to eat. The other stuff is either simply wives tale stuff, or perhaps some homeopath has written a paper based on non-scientific data that cannot be reproduced. I'd save the money on cinnamon tablets and just get cinnamon flavored poptarts to wash down with your energy drinks.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Mg has recently been shown to improve memory (maybe it's because ATP exists in the body as Mg-ATP?)
getting enough sleep has been shown to improve brain function
cardiovascular exercise has been shown to improve brain function

Hmm, let's check out that hypothesis..... Since ATP exists in the body as Mg-ATP, then a deficiency of Mg would result in a loss of ATP function. ATP is part of memory, therefore reversing a deficiency would cause memory function to increase. So far so good.

Let's see, is there anything else that ATP is involved with in the body that also might be affected by a decrease in Mg-ATP - like heart-function, moving, breathing, seeing, talking, breathing.....

Wow, you're right! A deficiency in Mg might result in a decrease in memory function, since dead people don't remember much.

Sigh.

 

[startoverat40]

the brain has the highest energy demands compared to other organs, so it would be first to experience reduced function with reduced availability of fuel, and to benefit with increased availability. anyway it was just a guess that i threw out there. I think Mg and Ca ions also help to stabilize the cell membrane.

do you always have to be sarcastic and condescending?

sigh...


by the way, here's where I read about it: http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20100127/magnesium-may-improve-memory

ps. Mg modulates current flow through NMDA receptor channels, so that's another possibility.

 

[EdLongshanks]

the brain has the highest energy demands compared to other organs, so it would be first to experience reduced function with reduced availability of fuel, and to benefit with increased availability. anyway it was just a guess that i threw out there. I think Mg and Ca ions also help to stabilize the cell membrane.

do you always have to be sarcastic and condescending?

sigh...


by the way, here's where I read about it: http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20100127/magnesium-may-improve-memory

ps. Mg modulates current flow through NMDA receptor channels, so that's another possibility.

To people who are not supposedly scientists I wouldn't be sarcastic and condescending when talking about pseudo-science which is not backed by double blind studies performed by non-financially-interested parties. You all ought to know better.

Why don't we just get a black kettle and stir it while muttering "Double, Double, toil and trouble, Cauldron burn and Cauldron bubble."

Edit: Ok, I read the link and see that it is a real study based on experiments with rats. So my initial sarcasm may have been too much. But the history of the "science" of dietary supplements should lead us to extreme skepticism.

 

[jl lin]

Honestly the only thing you listed that has EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE support behind it is the ADHD meds. The multivitamins shouldn't have any effect if you eat the typical US diet -- the only ones in this country with any degree of vitamin deficiency tend to be alcohol and substance abusers who forget to eat. The other stuff is either simply wives tale stuff, or perhaps some homeopath has written a paper based on non-scientific data that cannot be reproduced. I'd save the money on cinnamon tablets and just get cinnamon flavored poptarts to wash down with your energy drinks.

Look at European studies. In American economic systems, it doesn't pay to do LT expensive studies. Here the name of the game is about bucks. Ask anyone that is totally honest about pharmaceuticals. I'm not against them. I am just real and balanced about them. Same thing with some diagnostics. Excessive upcharging in part of the reason we are in mess in terms of the cost of healthcare. Truth is, a lot of the problem stem from plain ole upcharging and greed.

Many people in this country are lacking in B-complex and Mg, etc.

I don't get the rigidity here. No one is telling people to go hog wild into vitaminotosis.

I have been dx w/ SLE and Anticardiolipin Ig since early 20s. It has caused me to be sick a lot. Living on steroids sucks, and I've lost many pregnancies and developed other problems. Yes, I see and excellent BC'd rheumatologist and a ivy legue medical education system/university center. Changing many things with nutrition and wellness has made a HUGE difference in my immune system fxing and other things.

EVM is good to a point. It has its limits. And in reality, following the money puts perspective on things.

Sadly a number of HC Profiders smoke, eat poorly, do NOT consistently exercise, or take reasonable supplemenation. On top of that,there are many bitter, insecure,, and well, plain ole miserable people in healthcare, and these kinds of attitude/soul issues affects health and quality of life as well. I respect most my healthcare providers that take wellness seriously. One dude smokes and doesn't eat right, but he's a heck of a nice guy and he knows his FM. He's probably not going to change until he is forced to do so. Even then he may not. Mind and attitude and openness are everything.

Some folks just refuse to have teachable spirits about things. There's research out there. It just doesn't $$$ in the US to launch the highgrade, FDA approval studies. It's tough to push an extreme profit off of nutrition and wellness approaches compared to justifying outrageous fees for pharms b/c of 100's of millions of dollars in studies for approval. If people want to find information they can.

Mg++ is great, but you have to be careful with it. Pain specialists are using it more and more in their tx of folks with longstanding/chronic pain of various sorts.


Here's the God's honest truth. . .No one stands to make the money that the pharms do. . . No one tops them. . . Talk about financially interested parties. LOL

Speaking of wellness, I am WAY behind on my sleep.

 

[jl lin]

the brain has the highest energy demands compared to other organs, so it would be first to experience reduced function with reduced availability of fuel, and to benefit with increased availability. anyway it was just a guess that i threw out there. I think Mg and Ca ions also help to stabilize the cell membrane.

do you always have to be sarcastic and condescending?

sigh...


by the way, here's where I read about it: http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20100127/magnesium-may-improve-memory

ps. Mg modulates current flow through NMDA receptor channels, so that's another possibility.

start, listen, you will get mixed views all over this board on this topic. Stand you ground for wellness. Your body will thank you, and so will your patients, if they are willing to apply the practices.

The other thing is, sound wellness practices go a long way to keeping people out of the hospital--and shuffled from specialist to specialist for chronic-->acute illnesses. Hmmm. . .so is wellness really in our nation's healthcare industry's best/true interest?

Where it is sound and safe to use preventative and wellness measures, that is where they should be used.

Some physicians here and other places embrace integrative medicine and some do not. And in all of medicine, even with the employment of EBM (and it too has its limits in terms of practice), opinions WILL vary. Medicine will never be some absolute, rigid science. It will employ science, but it is more than that, and it really has to be. It is the nature of what is really is in terms of art and science in treating the individual from a holistic standpoint.


Also this is a bit of a hot-button issue for those that just enjoy arguing. So hey, to them I say: It you don't want ot exercise, eat more live vegetation and drink pure water, supplement where you will not get enough of certain nutrients in your diet. . .if you want to smoke, drink more than very limited amounts a ETOH and grow to taking handfuls of pharmaceutical agents. . . and if you do not explore positive attitudes that affect health and behavior.. .be my guest. It's a free country. Those of us that choose to employ sound wellness will continue to have high levels of functioning and have a higher quality of life.

I guess Dr's Oz and Roizen are total whack job "pseudo-scientists."

Whatever. Do what you want. Just don't crap on the wellness approaches of others, especially when they have increased their health and quality of life.

 

[startoverat40]

Edit: Ok, I read the link and see that it is a real study based on experiments with rats. So my initial sarcasm may have been too much. But the history of the "science" of dietary supplements should lead us to extreme skepticism.

so you learned that childish kneejerk snapping at people and making fun of them is not appropriate behavior. i hope you won't take that kind of tendency to the bed side with you, where patients and their families are bound to have plenty of "stupid" theories about their own condition.

 

[whouse]

.

 

[EdLongshanks]

so you learned that childish kneejerk snapping at people and making fun of them is not appropriate behavior. i hope you won't take that kind of tendency to the bed side with you, where patients and their families are bound to have plenty of "stupid" theories about their own condition.

I could take a couple of lessons away from this, if I wished. One would be to never admit to error. Fortunately, I will resist this.

 

[thomasfx10]

This is a great post ... Let us keep it civil. If you do not agree with someone, then say it in a nice way. This is a non-trad. forum which I hope is different in respect with the others ... anyway ... here are my thoughts

I have been a person fitness trainer for many years and I have been taking vitamins all my life ... Am I wasting my money? I do not think so ... I am in 46, and I look like I am in my early thirties. Is it just the vita's? No, there are many other factors that come into play (Staying out of the sun, exercise, eating healthy food, etc..) however, I do believe it has helped me.

Other thoughts ...

I have been shadowing a DO doc, and when a patient presents with low energy, and depression, he runs a vitamin D test for deficiency.

I have been taking cinnamon tablets (1000 mg), and it has lowered by cholesterol from 220 to 180's.

Mg - I take this for migraines and it has helped. It is good to read that it can help with memory too.

Sam-e for mood/depression. (I have no experience with this one) There has been many studies stating in increasing serotonin (Do Google search)

ADHD/ADD - I have tired Phosphatidylserine, and I have received good results with this. It has helped me concentrate. Do a Google search on studies.

In regards with drinking alcohol, it has a negative effect on me. One glass of wine, and I feel it the next day. Not exactly good for studying. If you want the benefits take resveratrol.

Sleep ... Try to get at least seven hours. I do not operate well on six hours or less.

Just my thoughts and experience ... Lets keep it coming ... in a civil way 😀

 

[EdLongshanks]

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[whouse]

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[EdLongshanks]

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[n3xa]

You apologized. I accepted. These type of comments seem to be your style though. You were insulting me, not my ideas. You've done the same to others.

I've seen posters like that before on car forums. *shrug* It happens.

 

[mafunk]

It's been wonderful to read various peoples opinions and experience with preventive health practices.

BALANCE - I don't think one should start licking crystals to heal their cancer, but at the same time rigid adherence to a narrow form of medicine that is tightly controlled by self interested lobby groups is not wise either. I believe a medical practitioner should practice discernment, while being open to anything that can help his/her patients.

I am a bit surprised by the harsh way in which some folks reject holistic health/nutrition. I agree with Jlinn - the Pharma industry has big bucks and it is in their self interest to create an enviroment in which science proves that we manage our health with expensive pills as opposed to other less expensive means.

I remember when the 'shocking' and 'ground breaking' scientific breakthrough was announced --- "Hormone replacement for women is linked to cancer." What a joke! As one who is interested in all types of medicine, including the holistic paths followed in Germany, I had known this for years. But in our country our scientist were 'unable' to prove and accept the validity of this truth until very recently.

I think that the best physicians are well educated about both traditional medicine and preventive health measures. They also question both paths. They question the validity of studies... who is funding these studies? What is their vested interest? They question the lack of studies in other things....why is there no funding for said topic? Who would be harmed if said topic was proven to be an effective wellness solution?

I feel that an excellent physician knows all the 'hard' science backed by pharma companies and mainstream medical sects, as well as other cutting edge or traditional wellness practices that have been shown to be useful and helpful. Just one woman's opinon.

 

[EdLongshanks]

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[whouse]

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[Law2Doc]

... but at the same time rigid adherence to a narrow form of medicine that is tightly controlled by self interested lobby groups is not wise either. I believe a medical practitioner should practice discernment, while being open to anything that can help his/her patients.
...

If there isn't evidence to support it, it's not something you should be professionally endorsing. There are no medications or supplements with no side effects. And many have interactions with other meds/supplements. The problem with supplements, is there is no agency oversight, and nobody to police the often fraudulent claims made by their manufacturers. So people take a variety of herbs and roots and minerals for a variety of ailments with not a lick of science backing them up. And often get sick from this. Or they screw up the effect/dose of prescription meds. Or they are very hard on the kidney or liver, and over time cause real damage. Or folks simply have no idea what the real effect is -- for all you know cinnamon tablets diminish brain acumen. You really don't know because there isn't science behind the supplement. Nobody did the study. Pointing toward an example where evidence based medicine got it wrong (hormone treatment) is fine, but you have to realize that for every bad decision that was evidence based, there are literally thousands of bad decisions that are wives-tale/non-evidence based. Most supplements out there are not benign. They neither do what the manufacturer claims nor are they free of side effects. These days when doctors take a patient's history, they ask not just about what medications they are on, but also what supplements, because these are rather frequently culprits of what can put someone in the ED. They are not safe, and often don't do what they purport, it's just that because they aren't considered "drugs", the FDA takes a hands off approach.

The person self prescribing Mg because it "stabilizing the brain" or for migranes is buying into a supplemental use that is not based on science and is actually quite dangerous. I don't know if it's helping you because there's some value there, or you think it's helping you and psychologically you have tricked your body into feeling like it works -- but until somebody proves that this is a valid use for magnesium in a study, a DOCTOR has no business playing with this. Why? Because eg hypermagnesemia can cause dangerous arrhythmias. Somebody comes into the hospital with palpitations and crazy lab values he's going to earn himself an overnight admission and a cardiology complication. So not really an example of a benign supplement, even if lots of people use it sparingly for its laxative properties.

 

[whouse]

If there isn't evidence to support it, it's not something you should be professionally endorsing. There are no medications or supplements with no side effects. And many have interactions with other meds/supplements. The problem with supplements, is there is no agency oversight, and nobody to police the often fraudulent claims made by their manufacturers. So people take a variety of herbs and roots and minerals for a variety of ailments with not a lick of science backing them up. And often get sick from this. Or they screw up the effect/dose of prescription meds. Or they are very hard on the kidney or liver, and over time cause real damage. Or folks simply have no idea what the real effect is -- for all you know cinnamon tablets diminish brain acumen. You really don't know because there isn't science behind the supplement. Nobody did the study. Pointing toward an example where evidence based medicine got it wrong (hormone treatment) is fine, but you have to realize that for every bad decision that was evidence based, there are literally thousands of bad decisions that are wives-tale/non-evidence based. Most supplements out there are not benign. They neither do what the manufacturer claims nor are they free of side effects. These days when doctors take a patient's history, they ask not just about what medications they are on, but also what supplements, because these are rather frequently culprits of what can put someone in the ED. They are not safe, and often don't do what they purport, it's just that because they aren't considered "drugs", the FDA takes a hands off approach.

The person self prescribing Mg because it "stabilizing the brain" or for migranes is buying into a supplemental use that is not based on science and is actually quite dangerous. I don't know if it's helping you because there's some value there, or you think it's helping you and psychologically you have tricked your body into feeling like it works -- but until somebody proves that this is a valid use for magnesium in a study, a DOCTOR has no business playing with this. Why? Because eg hypermagnesemia can cause dangerous arrhythmias. Somebody comes into the hospital with palpitations and crazy lab values he's going to earn himself an overnight admission and a cardiology complication. So not really an example of a benign supplement, even if lots of people use it sparingly for its laxative properties.

I'm currently finishing up medical pharmacology and prepping for the pharm Shelf exam. I think a lot of these issues will be cleared up in the poster's minds once they've come to understand med pharm. It's been a huge eye-opener for me.

 

[EdLongshanks]

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[whouse]

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[whouse]

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[EdLongshanks]

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[DPT2DO]

With respect to supplements and regulation; does anyone know how a legal supplement goes from being a supplement to a FDA regulated pharmaceutical? Is it possible? I feel that there is some truth to the fact that the fiscal benefits are not there for research or clinical trials on supplements. If you peruse the research on ginkgo, piracetam, lecithin/choline, Mg, Zn or others, you will find that there are some bright spots with respect to learning/cognition but never sufficient evidence for a clinician to recommend these supplements. Some research suggests that creatine has positive effects on cognition, particularly in vegetarians (who lack sufficient dietary sources). Research also suggests that omega-3 FA's, among their myriad benefits, may have neuroprotective benefits on aging, or in those with neurodegen diseases. From what I've read, the strongest effectors of cognition are the pharm stimulants, particularly ritalin, adderal, strattera and modafinil.
EDIT: and of course, good old exercise, particularly cardio, has + effects on cognition, vigilance and learning/memory.

 

[thomasfx10]

Thank God we are back on topic ...

I do not think you will see many studies done on vitamins since the money is not there. However, in regards to other studies you need to be careful on who is conducting those studies. The Pharm companies love conducting their own studies, which I take with a grain of salt. Independent studies, IMO are much more reliable.

In regards to fish oil. I have been taking that for a few years, and there are documented studies (here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oil) that it works and does help in some areas and not in others. I found it helped with my joints when I ran long distances.

 

[QofQuimica]

Come on, folks, let's please stop with all this forum angst. Everyone is being a little over-sensitive here: all of you are welcome to contribute. But keep in mind that when other people read your posts, they don't have the benefit of knowing you, being able to see your facial expressions, or hearing the inflection of your voice. It can be hard to interpret another person's intention, so when you're not sure where someone else is coming from, best to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As for the thread topic, I pretty much agree with L2D. I spent two weeks of my elective time learning about CAM in med school, and the main reason I did this was so that I could talk to my patients about it when they asked. There is insufficient evidence in most cases to recommend CAM therapies, and the lack of oversight in terms of herbal supplement content and purity is a major problem. All that being said, I'm overall neutral about patients using CAM, because even if it's placebo effect, there's a lot to be said for the power of the placebo effect. Anyone who figured out how to put that power in a pill would be the greatest physician in history!

The only caveat I'd give is that if you're going to take supplements, you should consider them like medications (and in particular, tell your doc that you're taking them when you're asked what meds you're taking). Hopefully the doc would specifically ask about supplements, but if not, you should volunteer the info.

 

[thomasfx10]

Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). I had to look that one up. I agree about the placebo effect can make a huge difference. My thoughts are if it is not hurting me, and there is a chance that it can help, then I will try it.

Your doc does need to know ALL the pills you are popping ... including over and under the counter, plus any illegal kind you are getting from Uncle Julio in Mexico.

 

[whouse]

Your doc does need to know ALL the pills you are popping ... including over and under the counter, plus any illegal kind you are getting from Uncle Julio in Mexico.

Agreed. This becomes incredibly important when you factor in P450 enzyme inhibitors and inducers that may be OTC (St. John's Wort) or even mundane substances (grapefruit juice).

 

[MillerMoth]

Read the forum sticky!

Whouse, Wow! he pulled the sticky on you! What are you going to do now???? LOL This dude needs anger management class. He yells at people on every darn thread and almost always realizes that he was wrong. LOL Now, he will yell at me and try to get me banned and then his wife will show up and yell at me too. LOL. Edshortshanks is a bully!!!

 

[jl lin]

This is a great post ... Let us keep it civil. If you do not agree with someone, then say it in a nice way. This is a non-trad. forum which I hope is different in respect with the others ... anyway ... here are my thoughts

I have been a person fitness trainer for many years and I have been taking vitamins all my life ... Am I wasting my money? I do not think so ... I am in 46, and I look like I am in my early thirties. Is it just the vita's? No, there are many other factors that come into play (Staying out of the sun, exercise, eating healthy food, etc..) however, I do believe it has helped me.

Other thoughts ...

I have been shadowing a DO doc, and when a patient presents with low







energy, and depression, he runs a vitamin D test for deficiency.

I have been taking cinnamon tablets (1000 mg), and it has lowered by cholesterol from 220 to 180's.

Mg - I take this for migraines and it has helped. It is good to read that it can help with memory too.

Sam-e for mood/depression. (I have no experience with this one) There has

been many studies stating in increasing serotonin (Do Google search)

ADHD/ADD - I have tired Phosphatidylserine, and I have received good results with this. It has helped me concentrate. Do a Google search on studies.

In regards with drinking alcohol, it has a negative effect on me. One glass of wine, and I feel it the next day. Not exactly good for studying. If you want the benefits take resveratrol.
Sleep ... Try to get at least seven hours. I do not operate well on six hours or
less.

Just my thoughts and experience ... Lets keep it coming ... in a civil way 😀

🙂:👍👍


I prefer the no added sulfites, organically grown merlot....even then, more than 2 glasses, spaced out, and I am toast. I've always been a cheap date, lol


I disagree w some positions here. Are we really looking at how many things aren't and really cannot be prescribed by way of ebm? It's unrealistic. What's more, plenty of things are used off label.

Next thing you know, physicians will not be able to truly individualize care or take a truly holistic approach to care...and that is when you will definitely see people flocking to alternative
providers--some of them reputable and responsible, and some of them not so much.

The answer is to increase education in nutrition, supplements, and wellness practices...not to
just poo poo it out of hand. Too many people are suffering from too many chronic illness. 9 times out of 10, the side effects...potential and actual for pharm and other txs far exceed those of judiciously taken nutrients and supplements and sound wellness practices.

The bottom line is the issue is really based in control, money, and politics more than anything else. But look out. You speak out for balance and you become a marked forum member.

 

[jl lin]

A worthy man can admit wrong. Thank you.

Edit: It may seem strange to some that someone as sharp-tongued as I would demand a public apology. The reason for it was that the posts went beyond judging my words to judging me, and in fact judging my spirit and even the condition of my soul. For that, I took offense. If someone can find an example of me doing something similar, please let me know, because I will apologize for it.

OMG....wow


Honestly, you have been judgmental, condescending...and all I can say to you is...wow...

 

[jl lin]

Whouse, Wow! he pulled the sticky on you! What are you going to do now???? LOL This dude needs anger management class. He yells at people on every darn thread and almost always realizes that he was wrong. LOL Now, he will yell at me and try to get me banned and then his wife will show up and yell at me too. LOL. Edshortshanks is a bully!!!

Truthfully, ITA. I am disappointed in it.

 

[momgracea]

Honestly the only thing you listed that has EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE support behind it is the ADHD meds. The multivitamins shouldn't have any effect if you eat the typical US diet -- the only ones in this country with any degree of vitamin deficiency tend to be alcohol and substance abusers who forget to eat. The other stuff is either simply wives tale stuff, or perhaps some homeopath has written a paper based on non-scientific data that cannot be reproduced. I'd save the money on cinnamon tablets and just get cinnamon flavored poptarts to wash down with your energy drinks.

Actually, there is quite a bit of research to support taking fish oil for memory; the one caveat being it needs to be a high potency DHA or EPA product. Do a search on PubMed (eicosapentaenoic acid AND memory) or docosahexaenoic acid AND memory) and you'll find several peer reviewed studies that support its use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=eicosapentaenoic acid memory

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=docosahexaenoic acid memory

There was also a huge trial on school age children conducted, which examined its efficacy with ADHD and dyprexia, and showed promising results.

http://www.durhamtrial.org/

That's not to say that fish oil is a panacea, but I would not be so quick to discount its use.

Grace

 

[EdLongshanks]

Actually, there is quite a bit of research to support taking fish oil for memory; the one caveat being it needs to be a high potency DHA or EPA product. Do a search on PubMed (eicosapentaenoic acid AND memory) or docosahexaenoic acid AND memory) and you'll find several peer reviewed studies that support its use.

Advocating the use of a dietary supplement without sufficient information to provide a prescription provides many possibilities of abuse. Already profit-making companies are selling fish oil with the claim that physicians are telling people to take it. But how much should a person take? What is the dosage? What chemicals are in fish-oil besides the studied ones? Are there any side-effects?

This is what I am talking about when I compare dietary supplements to witch-craft. The herb-wives through the ages gave many potions to people, many of them quite potent. It is the herb-wives and witch-doctors who knew how to give willow-bark for pain and who induced abortions with ergot.

As a gardener I know that all vegetables are not the same. At medium summer temperatures my cucumbers are sweet and wonderful. Later in the summer, during the extreme heat, they are bitter and unpalatable. If cucumbers are good for you, which cucumbers should be given? If the homeopath "doctor" tells people that medical doctors have been advocating fish oil and then sells them his over-priced formula, how does he know which kind to give? Is it five cc's of trout oil? Female trout? Spawning trout? Fresh water parr? Salt water? Is there anything else in the oil that may be detrimental. Maybe only cod oil has a chemical that is harmful when given to girls just before ovulation?

Doctors (and even doctors to be) have a special responsibility to not let their reputations be used in a harmful way.