Any experience on switching into Triple Board?

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CombinedResSwitch

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Hi all,

MS4; just found out I matched into psych. I am so grateful to have matched, but also quite disappointed not to have matched into a Triple Board program. I have been dedicated to that path for awhile, and have specific reasons for wanting the combined training. I interviewed with quite a few TB programs, ranked them all that top, and thought my chances of matching to one of them were good. Although this match day felt like a big setback, I know this is a path I would still very much like to pursue, if I can get the blessing of the PD at the program I matched to, I would like to reapply. I wanted to know if there was anyone out there who had the experience of switching into TB after matching into another specialty, or anyone who has direct knowledge of any of the programs and could speak to what my chances might be.

Feel free to DM me if you would prefer to speak privately, and thanks in advance.
 
Hi there,

Out of curiosity, mind if I ask why triple board over pure psych?
 
Hi there,

Out of curiosity, mind if I ask why triple board over pure psych?

I'm very interested in pursuing a career working and doing research in developmental disabilities, and my other main area of interest is child abuse and abuse prevention, especially in infants and young children. I did pediatric rotations in both these areas, which I loved, but found that there was not much psych element to them, which I really missed. Neither DD nor child abuse is focused on much in most psychiatry programs as far as I can tell, even in ones with decent child fellowship programs. Additionally, my biggest passion is working with children; I love child psych, I also enjoy working with adults but it isn't my passion, and the idea of working with mostly adult psych patients for at least the next three years is really disheartening to me. In retrospect I maybe should have applied to Peds instead of psych along with TB, but I was/am more ingrained in the psych program at my med school, and so I just sort of chose it by default. I matched much farther down my list than I anticipated, at a mid range program that has a big child fellowship but very few/no opportunities for the areas I am interested in, and while it is an academic program there is not a big research initiative there. If I had matched to a psych program higher up on my list that checked more of my boxes, I think I would be more open to the idea of staying, but I just see so few opportunities for the things I want to do at the program, it is nothing against the program itself.
 
I have never heard of someone moving from psych into a triple board program, but the opposite happens regularly so it is probably possible.
 
I'm very interested in pursuing a career working and doing research in developmental disabilities, and my other main area of interest is child abuse and abuse prevention, especially in infants and young children. I did pediatric rotations in both these areas, which I loved, but found that there was not much psych element to them, which I really missed. Neither DD nor child abuse is focused on much in most psychiatry programs as far as I can tell, even in ones with decent child fellowship programs. Additionally, my biggest passion is working with children; I love child psych, I also enjoy working with adults but it isn't my passion, and the idea of working with mostly adult psych patients for at least the next three years is really disheartening to me. In retrospect I maybe should have applied to Peds instead of psych along with TB, but I was/am more ingrained in the psych program at my med school, and so I just sort of chose it by default. I matched much farther down my list than I anticipated, at a mid range program that has a big child fellowship but very few/no opportunities for the areas I am interested in, and while it is an academic program there is not a big research initiative there. If I had matched to a psych program higher up on my list that checked more of my boxes, I think I would be more open to the idea of staying, but I just see so few opportunities for the things I want to do at the program, it is nothing against the program itself.

Focus on the positives: your lifestyle in psych residency will be much better than your pediatrics colleagues. Also, once you fast track you will (depending on where you go) have more opportunity to purse developmental disabilities, and your psychiatric knowledge base will position you very well. My knowledge of general psychopathology, development, biopsychosocial formulation, cognitive assessment etc is of greater value in my work with kids who have ASD than months in the PICU may have been. Many people pursue this area of work from the path of child psychiatry with considerable success. Come to the Child Study Center for an elective and your fellowship 🙂
 
So sorry to hear you didn't end up where you wanted to be!

I imagine transferring would be hard to do unless you start out as a Pediatrics intern. Most TB programs start out heavy in Peds (like 10-12 months worth) so idk how a Psych intern year would translate.

And I agree with the posts above -- you can still get the exposure to DD, abuse, etc. in psych residency (esp fellowship). My one gripe about TB is the number of inpatient ward months in comparison to ambulatory which would arguably be much more useful for child psych (where the majority of grads end up). Wishing you all the best!


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Focus on the positives: your lifestyle in psych residency will be much better than your pediatrics colleagues. Also, once you fast track you will (depending on where you go) have more opportunity to purse developmental disabilities, and your psychiatric knowledge base will position you very well. My knowledge of general psychopathology, development, biopsychosocial formulation, cognitive assessment etc is of greater value in my work with kids who have ASD than months in the PICU may have been. Many people pursue this area of work from the path of child psychiatry with considerable success. Come to the Child Study Center for an elective and your fellowship 🙂

I don't think it is wise to choose one's career based on lifestyle during residency. Plus peds residency is only 3 years vs 4 years of psych. Whatever you consider to be the misery factor of a peds residency, you need to divide it by .75 to get the psych equivalent, and then your comparison might not hold up.

And at least where I trained, the peds program was funded by the local private children's hospital, which meant cush parking spaces and vacation benefits that we psych residents could only dream of. Plus peds residents can do all sorts of funded international rotations. You ever hear of a psych resident getting paid to do a rotation in Africa or Latin America? No, I didn't think so.

Everything else you're saying in favor of psych can also be said of peds: that a peds knowledge base will position one very well. That months in the PICU are of "greater value" in [insert disease here] than months in psych "may" have been. The OP mentioned an interest in infant child abuse. That's really not the domain of child psych. The sequelae of child abuse, later on in life, are. But those are different things. I believe in infants most of the evidence of child abuse is based on radiology and physical exam findings. Without a peds residency, how can you do that stuff? Similarly, without a psych residency and child fellowship, how can you manage the consequences of the abuse?

I say let the OP start their psych program, see how they like it, think on it a bit, and then make a decision. There's no rush.
 
I don't think it is wise to choose one's career based on lifestyle during residency. Plus peds residency is only 3 years vs 4 years of psych. Whatever you consider to be the misery factor of a peds residency, you need to divide it by .75 to get the psych equivalent, and then your comparison might not hold up.

And at least where I trained, the peds program was funded by the local private children's hospital, which meant cush parking spaces and vacation benefits that we psych residents could only dream of. Plus peds residents can do all sorts of funded international rotations. You ever hear of a psych resident getting paid to do a rotation in Africa or Latin America? No, I didn't think so
It's actually increasingly common for psych residencies to fund "global mental health" rotations in Africa and what not. but yes peds residents often get lots of nice benefits cuz people donate money to train pads residents whereas people donate money to abolish psychiatry...
 
It's actually increasingly common for psych residencies to fund "global mental health" rotations in Africa and what not. but yes peds residents often get lots of nice benefits cuz people donate money to train pads residents whereas people donate money to abolish psychiatry...

I shudder to think what these "global mental health" rotations consist of. Do you happen to know?
 
I think it depends on the program - everything from waving at starving poor black people to exporting western concepts of distress that have no cultural salience, to program development and training locals and community health workers to deliver treatments for various mental disorders. most are terrible, and a few are good.
 
Thank you everyone for your insight. Any further advice/insight is still greatly appreciated as well, especially if you have direct knowledge of any of the TB programs.
 
I think it depends on the program - everything from waving at starving poor black people to exporting western concepts of distress that have no cultural salience, to program development and training locals and community health workers to deliver treatments for various mental disorders. most are terrible, and a few are good.

I think Duke does it right, but then again, their global mental health track requires a nine month commitment and delays graduation as a result. So, you know, not to be undertaken flippantly.
 
I'm very interested in pursuing a career working and doing research in developmental disabilities, and my other main area of interest is child abuse and abuse prevention, especially in infants and young children. I did pediatric rotations in both these areas, which I loved, but found that there was not much psych element to them, which I really missed. Neither DD nor child abuse is focused on much in most psychiatry programs as far as I can tell, even in ones with decent child fellowship programs. Additionally, my biggest passion is working with children; I love child psych. I matched much farther down my list than I anticipated, at a mid range program that has a big child fellowship but very few/no opportunities for the areas I am interested in, and while it is an academic program there is not a big research initiative there.

Based on your interests, I see no use for peds training beyond child psych. Child psych does treat DD frequently and you are plenty qualified to do research in abuse. I think you lucked out by not matching TB.

TB has to cover so much in only 5 years that I don't see how any meaningful research could be completed there. A typical psych/child psych track would have more time to do research in your spare time. I've seen many residents start research where none existed.
 
We have a few triple board attendings, and none of them practice peds/actually use their peds training. I frankly don't see the use of combined track residencies (except for maybe med peds)
 
I don't think it is wise to choose one's career based on lifestyle during residency. Plus peds residency is only 3 years vs 4 years of psych. Whatever you consider to be the misery factor of a peds residency, you need to divide it by .75 to get the psych equivalent, and then your comparison might not hold up.

I'm going to sound like the math police, but this bugs me too much. You mean multiply by 0.75 or 3/4, you need to divide by 1.3333. Now off to take my OCD medicine.
 
Based on your interests, I see no use for peds training beyond child psych. Child psych does treat DD frequently and you are plenty qualified to do research in abuse. I think you lucked out by not matching TB.

TB has to cover so much in only 5 years that I don't see how any meaningful research could be completed there. A typical psych/child psych track would have more time to do research in your spare time. I've seen many residents start research where none existed.

In many ways I agree but child abuse of kids ages 0-3 is only covered by child psychiatry in the respect that we deal with the sequele for a living. Contrast to peds which has a 3 year fellowship specializing in this with extensive forensic training and you rotating on their service.

That said sounds like OP is split between doing developmental peds, child abuse peds, and child psych. Well you are now narrowed down to child psych and can easily carve out a special interest in DD (likely with extensive ASD work). This is not the most popular of sub-areas in child psych so it should be easy to carve yourself into. If you really like dealing with child abuse, PTSD and complex PTSD work is also quite in vogue. Instead of helping to put away the abusers you can help fix the abused!
 
I'm going to sound like the math police, but this bugs me too much. You mean multiply by 0.75 or 3/4, you need to divide by 1.3333. Now off to take my OCD medicine.
I disagree. Peds is shorter, so divide by 0.75 (or multiply by 4/3) to get it in Psych equivalent terms. Math all checks out.
 
You are right, I read it as going from psych to peds, but it is the other way around. My intrusive obsessing was relieved none the less.
 
Thanks TexasPhysician and Merovinge for your input. In regards to the child abuse piece - what I am particularly interested in is integrated care models where child psychiatrists are involved with pediatricians in the community to help develop programs for abuse prevention. In my experience, there is a lot of child abuse, especially in young children, that stems more from ignorance, frustration, and lack of resources than malevolent intent. One of my main interests in this area is developing programs, especially for young parents, new parents, single parents, and parents that otherwise fall into higher risk categories (like low socioeconomic status) that help them be successful parents. For example, helping them to understand what is and is not reasonable to expect from children at which ages, how to deal with high stress moments like tantrums or incessant crying, and potentially doing workshops and guided parent-child interaction sessions in a therapeutic setting. I'm also interested in how to help increase comfort level of pediatricians on how to screen for and identify signs of potential abuse, and how that could be effectively integrated into well-child visits. Since many children tend to manifest physical distress (rather than expressing psychological distress) after experiencing abuse, I think having the pediatric training would be useful for all aspects of this. Also, you would have a better understanding of typical outpatient pediatric care and therefore potentially be better able to develop programs that work well in an integrated care model.

In regards to developmental disabilities - I think both the research and training is really fractured and different in terms of what you get in developmental peds versus what you get in child psychiatry. Having seen these patients be managed in both settings, the approach is often quite different. Dev peds often focuses exclusively in the medical domain, whereas child psych operates in the psychiatric domain. They both prescribe anti-psychotics, stimulants, and other heavy duty drugs, but the methods behind choosing medication type and dose varies a lot between the two specialties. The other pieces is that kids with DD (particularly autism) often have both psychiatric AND medical comorbidities, many of the young adult patients with autism that I've seen also have diabetes, and/or high cholesterol or HTN, there are often also chronic GI issues, etc. Triple board seems like a way to get training that allows you to truly be the go-to physician for that patient - you will be able to prescribe drugs that help manage depression, anxiety and irritability and help them manage their medical complaints like chronic constipation or diabetes. Ultimately, you could also help build bridges between the world of developmental pediatrics and child psychiatry, which I think is going to be hugely important for kids and adults with DD.

Someone also mentioned not knowing how a couple months in PICU would help someone be a better child psychiatrist - but given that several of the child abuse cases I saw originally presented in the PICU, I disagree. I think it is incredibly valuable to see child abuse from first presentation, to understand how abuse is first identified, how things like court cases proceed, and how difficult the whole process is for them. These children have already experienced a traumatic or multiple traumatic events, usually caused by someone that is supposed to be one of their primary sources of love, protection, and support. They then have to cope with feeling like they "caused" the investigation, potentially going into foster care, and also potentially having to testify in court. I think it really important for a child psychiatrist to have exposure to this process first-hand.

Likewise, I spent a month in the NICU during 4th year, and for me understanding the many medical complications that can occur during a stay in the NICU was really valuable in terms of understanding the later medical and developmental disabilities that can occur for preemies. People tend to view infants as these really simple beings with simple needs, but they are incredibly complex and are at a stage where the most important neurological development is occurring. Having someone with both pediatric and child psychiatry training help assist NICUs in creating therapeutic environments that cause the least amount of stress possible I think would be extremely valuable. Also, having someone with both peds and child psych training there to provide outpatient support as parents make the difficult transition from having their child in the NICU, potentially for several months, to bringing that child home, would also be very valuable.

So, for all those reasons, and others that I could expound on more than I'm sure anyone wants to hear, I am still very interested in trying to pursue TB training, and I am still hopeful of applying again this year - I just want to know if anyone has any advice on how to maximize my chances. I do understand that doing adult psych and child fellowship can still get me where I want to go, and if things don't work out again I will accept that and move on from TB. But I've worked really hard to get to this point in my training and did a lot of soul searching when thinking about what specialty I wanted to pursue, and I'm not ready to give up on that goal yet.
 
You have some really great ideas and I hope you keep up the passion for them. As someone who's best medical school experience was a month of the peds child abuse service, I certainly get where you are coming from.

That said, even as a TB you are really not going to often wanting to manage all aspects of care for severe DD cases with comorbidities. There's a few reasons, 1 is that you are not going to get reinbursed for it and second is that staying up to date on all that will require an incredibly specific niche job that almost no one in the country has.

Being trained in psychiatry well really not offer any help with designing NICU care. If anything peds neuro would have a better grasp but child psychiatry generally has zero exposure to kids 0-2. Maybe the credentials will look cooler but the training wont help.

By all means go for what you want but just realize that CAP alone will get you the things you want for your ultimate career and will also be what you practice on a day-to-day basis in almost all likelihood. I could have easily been a pediatrician, it is a great field and I'm sure you would enjoy the training, but at the end of the day I'm glad I have maximized my time in psychiatry because that is what people expect when they come to see me, an expert in child psychiatry. Most are really uninterested if I can manage their kid's ear infection at the same time.
 
I don't think it is wise to choose one's career based on lifestyle during residency. Plus peds residency is only 3 years vs 4 years of psych. Whatever you consider to be the misery factor of a peds residency, you need to divide it by .75 to get the psych equivalent, and then your comparison might not hold up.

And at least where I trained, the peds program was funded by the local private children's hospital, which meant cush parking spaces and vacation benefits that we psych residents could only dream of. Plus peds residents can do all sorts of funded international rotations. You ever hear of a psych resident getting paid to do a rotation in Africa or Latin America? No, I didn't think so.

Everything else you're saying in favor of psych can also be said of peds: that a peds knowledge base will position one very well. That months in the PICU are of "greater value" in [insert disease here] than months in psych "may" have been. The OP mentioned an interest in infant child abuse. That's really not the domain of child psych. The sequelae of child abuse, later on in life, are. But those are different things. I believe in infants most of the evidence of child abuse is based on radiology and physical exam findings. Without a peds residency, how can you do that stuff? Similarly, without a psych residency and child fellowship, how can you manage the consequences of the abuse?

I say let the OP start their psych program, see how they like it, think on it a bit, and then make a decision. There's no rush.
Given that most of the peds people around here average 70 hours a week and those in psych average 50, you're still putting in more overall hours in peds vs psych. Plus there's the wear factor hours over 40 tend to have due to the finite nature of the day- working 8 hours for five days is about half as taxing as working 12 hours for five days...
 
Thanks TexasPhysician and Merovinge for your input. In regards to the child abuse piece - what I am particularly interested in is integrated care models where child psychiatrists are involved with pediatricians in the community to help develop programs for abuse prevention. In my experience, there is a lot of child abuse, especially in young children, that stems more from ignorance, frustration, and lack of resources than malevolent intent. One of my main interests in this area is developing programs, especially for young parents, new parents, single parents, and parents that otherwise fall into higher risk categories (like low socioeconomic status) that help them be successful parents. For example, helping them to understand what is and is not reasonable to expect from children at which ages, how to deal with high stress moments like tantrums or incessant crying, and potentially doing workshops and guided parent-child interaction sessions in a therapeutic setting. I'm also interested in how to help increase comfort level of pediatricians on how to screen for and identify signs of potential abuse, and how that could be effectively integrated into well-child visits. Since many children tend to manifest physical distress (rather than expressing psychological distress) after experiencing abuse, I think having the pediatric training would be useful for all aspects of this. Also, you would have a better understanding of typical outpatient pediatric care and therefore potentially be better able to develop programs that work well in an integrated care model.

In regards to developmental disabilities - I think both the research and training is really fractured and different in terms of what you get in developmental peds versus what you get in child psychiatry. Having seen these patients be managed in both settings, the approach is often quite different. Dev peds often focuses exclusively in the medical domain, whereas child psych operates in the psychiatric domain. They both prescribe anti-psychotics, stimulants, and other heavy duty drugs, but the methods behind choosing medication type and dose varies a lot between the two specialties. The other pieces is that kids with DD (particularly autism) often have both psychiatric AND medical comorbidities, many of the young adult patients with autism that I've seen also have diabetes, and/or high cholesterol or HTN, there are often also chronic GI issues, etc. Triple board seems like a way to get training that allows you to truly be the go-to physician for that patient - you will be able to prescribe drugs that help manage depression, anxiety and irritability and help them manage their medical complaints like chronic constipation or diabetes. Ultimately, you could also help build bridges between the world of developmental pediatrics and child psychiatry, which I think is going to be hugely important for kids and adults with DD.

Someone also mentioned not knowing how a couple months in PICU would help someone be a better child psychiatrist - but given that several of the child abuse cases I saw originally presented in the PICU, I disagree. I think it is incredibly valuable to see child abuse from first presentation, to understand how abuse is first identified, how things like court cases proceed, and how difficult the whole process is for them. These children have already experienced a traumatic or multiple traumatic events, usually caused by someone that is supposed to be one of their primary sources of love, protection, and support. They then have to cope with feeling like they "caused" the investigation, potentially going into foster care, and also potentially having to testify in court. I think it really important for a child psychiatrist to have exposure to this process first-hand.

Likewise, I spent a month in the NICU during 4th year, and for me understanding the many medical complications that can occur during a stay in the NICU was really valuable in terms of understanding the later medical and developmental disabilities that can occur for preemies. People tend to view infants as these really simple beings with simple needs, but they are incredibly complex and are at a stage where the most important neurological development is occurring. Having someone with both pediatric and child psychiatry training help assist NICUs in creating therapeutic environments that cause the least amount of stress possible I think would be extremely valuable. Also, having someone with both peds and child psych training there to provide outpatient support as parents make the difficult transition from having their child in the NICU, potentially for several months, to bringing that child home, would also be very valuable.

In theory, your ideas make sense. In reality, there is no clinical role that you could realistically and financially achieve. By merely agreeing to be a part of the peds faculty, you will take a pay cut vs psych or child psych. The peds faculty will then not want you to handle combined issues because it isn't billable. They also won't want to pay you for helping coordinate care. You would need way too much time to handle all issues yourself vs broken into separate clinic appointments and referrals. If you want research time on top of that, good luck. I'd wager that every university setting would try to plug you into the child psych role (hardest to recruit) and maybe put you on child consults to appease your desire to be involved with peds.

I would estimate that the role you imagine that includes TB value for patients plus dedicated research has a salary of $50,000 if you could find somewhere willing to accept your diversified interests.

Every TB I've met has ended up straight child psych. While I applaud your desire to improve care, Id first be 100% sure on how you see yourself dedicating your time. What you describe above is not feasible.
 
In theory, your ideas make sense. In reality, there is no clinical role that you could realistically and financially achieve. By merely agreeing to be a part of the peds faculty, you will take a pay cut vs psych or child psych. The peds faculty will then not want you to handle combined issues because it isn't billable. They also won't want to pay you for helping coordinate care. You would need way too much time to handle all issues yourself vs broken into separate clinic appointments and referrals. If you want research time on top of that, good luck. I'd wager that every university setting would try to plug you into the child psych role (hardest to recruit) and maybe put you on child consults to appease your desire to be involved with peds.

I would estimate that the role you imagine that includes TB value for patients plus dedicated research has a salary of $50,000 if you could find somewhere willing to accept your diversified interests.

Every TB I've met has ended up straight child psych. While I applaud your desire to improve care, Id first be 100% sure on how you see yourself dedicating your time. What you describe above is not feasible.

This is probably good general advice and true in most places, and I also think that child psych offers such terrific work life balance that it's a great choice if you are on the fence.

However, there are places where the OP could practice in this way. For example, in connecticut the state funds a variety of integrated programs and one is literally for kids with comorbid psychiatric and medical issues, where both are managed by a multidisciplinary team and there is an in home component. There's no billing as it's grant based but they cover a good salary for a psychiatrist and pediatrician - this would be a good fit for the OP. And these programs are not isolated to the dark blue northeast - WUSTL has an integrated peds/child psych program where they manage the mental health and physical health of young kids with early trauma. And so whilst I agree that most practice settings are not well suited to capatilize on a combined skill set, there are settings where the OP could pursue this niche.
 
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