any IMG in this SOAP?

[Mochepoire]

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[CPmustangs]

I can assure you deans did not make calls for their students but I think the soap is the most fair, it is not a race who gets their phone call in first. It is who does the program actually want. So I think it is better then the scramble

I am asking about the regular ones, who need visa, not greencard holders.

I am starting to think that this SOAP is broken and US Dean Offices already called programs on the list for their graduates.

On the other hand if you get into a residency as IMG (that means you need bigger scores than the average AMG) after that you re the best to fill all the underserved areas

they want to eliminate the prematches, now they are taking away the scramble.. isn't it great? such a wonderful world

 

[Mochepoire]

.

 

[username456789]

well this is what i thought too, and I was really convinced that I have chances.. maybe is the visa then.. I did not like how the old scramble worked, and i knew that in general scramble is something almost impossible.

this SOAP "change" gave me false hopes.

I think SOAP is more "fair" inasmuch as it allows PROGRAMS to end up with who they want (among the initially unmatched), rather than them taking the first applicant who happens to get through on the phone to them.

Unfortunately, this makes things likely more difficult for most IMGs, as the programs may be more likely to take their time and more heavily consider the AMGs if tha is their true desire. Whereas in the old scramble a PD who preferred AMGs may have 'settled' for an IMG early in the process at the risk of not matching anyone otherwise, now they can 'take their time' (relatively speaking) and pick an AMG they want.

This is all just conjecture, though.

 

[Mochepoire]

.

 

[username456789]

the only thing that I consider strange is that the programs are considering AMGs before IMGs regardless of exam scores or previous experience (some IMGs have postgraduate training in their country in the chosen specialty)

in the previous scramble it was a phone/ fax race, now is only "first AMG/ then maybe the others".
the risk is to match someone in a specialty that was not their initial choice (only because they are AMGs and is not good for school reputation to have unmatched students), who maybe after one year will try to reapply.

on the other hand they will leave out IMGs who maybe wanted that specialty from the beginning of this whole process 6 months ago.

Well on a third hand, it makes some sense that the US residency program selection process would favor US educated students who incidentally have incurred US federal loan debt.

With all due respect to any and everyone, if I was applying for residency training in a country other than my own, I would absolutely be shocked if they did not favor their own citizens over me.

 

[DrAwsome]

I am asking about the regular ones, who need visa, not greencard holders.

I am starting to think that this SOAP is broken and US Dean Offices already called programs on the list for their graduates.

On the other hand if you get into a residency as IMG (that means you need bigger scores than the average AMG) after that you re the best to fill all the underserved areas

they want to eliminate the prematches, now they are taking away the scramble.. isn't it great? such a wonderful world

You do realize that this is the US, right? So you should be immensely GRATEFUL if you get any position in a country that is not yours. It is not the responsibility of the US to educate you. Prematches are not fair to the rest of applicants, and I'm glad to see them gone for one. If anything, the system here should be like it is in Canada, where all Canadian applicants get a first shot at residencies, and whatever is left over is up for grabs.

 

[DrAwsome]

I can assure you deans did not make calls for their students but I think the soap is the most fair, it is not a race who gets their phone call in first. It is who does the program actually want. So I think it is better then the scramble

Absolutely. The scramble was a terrible idea, and even though I'm super duper grateful to not have to participate in it, the SOAP is a big improvement from the scramble.

 

[DrAwsome]

the only thing that I consider strange is that the programs are considering AMGs before IMGs regardless of exam scores or previous experience (some IMGs have postgraduate training in their country in the chosen specialty)

in the previous scramble it was a phone/ fax race, now is only "first AMG/ then maybe the others".
the risk is to match someone in a specialty that was not their initial choice (only because they are AMGs and is not good for school reputation to have unmatched students), who maybe after one year will try to reapply.

on the other hand they will leave out IMGs who maybe wanted that specialty from the beginning of this whole process 6 months ago.

Any normal PD will pick a reasonable AMG over an IMG. Scores realistically are not the end all be all of the process, and previous experience is many times irrelevant. The likelihood that an IMG who is a dermatologist in their home country, or a radiation oncologist or ophthalmologist will get into one of those specialties here is next to none, so it's really irrelevant. It's difficult for us to match into those specialties, so much more for IMGs. The positions that are not truly wanted are left over, and you are welcome to apply for them. The problem that IMGs bring with them-cultural issues, lack of English proficiency, difficulty getting acculturated, visa issues, etc. is rather significant, so unless the AMG is terrible, most PD's will pick an AMG over an IMG.

Also, it's not really true that IMGs "wanted that specialty from the beginning" most of them will try to get anything. Let's be honest here! And again-this is the US, so it should be the responsibility of deans/medical schools to match their applicants, and not worry about foreign ones.

If you have such a terrible problem with our system, why don't you train in your country?

 

[punch]

I am asking about the regular ones, who need visa, not greencard holders.

I am starting to think that this SOAP is broken and US Dean Offices already called programs on the list for their graduates.

On the other hand if you get into a residency as IMG (that means you need bigger scores than the average AMG) after that you re the best to fill all the underserved areas

they want to eliminate the prematches, now they are taking away the scramble.. isn't it great? such a wonderful world

Many.

 

[albuterolmd]

Keep in mind that there are more positions for residency available than there are US medical graduates. I'm a US citizen who graduated from a foreign school. If I don't get a job in the US, it's not like I have a home country to go back to. I think we get the worst end of the stick honestly.

That being said, I still think that US grads should have preference because they have the largest loans to pay back, and all the other reasons people argue for. I just think there are enough jobs for both AMGs and qualified IMGs, especially US-citizen IMGs.

 

[medicine12]

If you have such a terrible problem with our system, why don't you train in your country?

I'm sure if all AMGs had your same attitude, many IMGs will. Then the US healthcare system will go down.

 

[RooRooBears]

If you have such a terrible problem with our system, why don't you train in your country?

A little advice. Small phrases like this will destroy your career as a doctor. I'm not with you or against you. Just saying, watch what you say. Unless this is truly who you are, then good luck to you and your career.

 

[punch]

a little advice. Small phrases like this will destroy your career as a doctor. I'm not with you or against you. Just saying, watch what you say. Unless this is truly who you are, then good luck to you and your career.

+1

 

[DrAwsome]

Not only have I not said anything wrong, but maybe you should look in other threads, because it's what most of us are saying, and what most of us feel as well. I guess by your statement, the careers of countless PD's who choose AMG's over IMG's will be destroyed too because they prefer AMGs? Not sure what you are getting at. There is a reason why AMG's are picked over IMG's. I'm sorry if this offends you as a US-IMG, but the truth of the matter is that this is the US, and it only makes sense that american grads are given preference. If I went to India or another country and applied for a residency, no one would bother to look at my application. And to be honest, going around the other threads and telling people how they should feel is pretty silly. People feel the way they feel, you cannot change that. If anything, just try to be the very best applicant you can be and leave it at that.

Heck, even if I applied in Canada, the realities is that Canadian citizens would be given preference over me. And why shouldn't they? This is the reality of the system. It's exhausting to see IMGs complaining about how "it's not fair." What I find "not fair" is to see fellow AMGs who spend years and tons of $ to get a medical education and end up with no position.

Good luck

 

[RooRooBears]

Not only have I not said anything wrong, but maybe you should look in other threads, because it's what most of us are saying, and what most of us feel as well. I guess by your statement, the careers of countless PD's who choose AMG's over IMG's will be destroyed too because they prefer AMGs? Not sure what you are getting at. There is a reason why AMG's are picked over IMG's. I'm sorry if this offends you as a US-IMG, but the truth of the matter is that this is the US, and it only makes sense that american grads are given preference. If I went to India or another country and applied for a residency, no one would bother to look at my application. And to be honest, going around the other threads and telling people how they should feel is pretty silly. People feel the way they feel, you cannot change that. If anything, just try to be the very best applicant you can be and leave it at that.

Heck, even if I applied in Canada, the realities is that Canadian citizens would be given preference over me. And why shouldn't they? This is the reality of the system. It's exhausting to see IMGs complaining about how "it's not fair." What I find "not fair" is to see fellow AMGs who spend years and tons of $ to get a medical education and end up with no position.

Good luck

Ok. So good luck to you and your career. Btw, I was referring to your comment "train in your own country" and nothing else. Read between the lines, please.

 

[DrAwsome]

Listen, I feel for you and others who are SOAPING, and do hope that you can find a position where you are happy. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[username456789]

Ok. So good luck to you and your career. Btw, I was referring to your comment "train in your own country" and nothing else. Read between the lines, please.

Likely you were misreading some nonexistent xenophobic vibe in his post. The line about training in their country was, in context with the rest if his paragraph, clearly stating that as indeed the alternative to matching and training here.

Before we go hunting between the lines, it's best to read those lines first.

 

[sineapse]

With all due respect to any and everyone, if I was applying for residency training in a country other than my own, I would absolutely be shocked if they did not favor their own citizens over me.

QFT

Same issue applies all over the world. UK graduates get pissed when foreign docs come in and get training jobs.

 

[Chalo1986]

Surprisingly, the "train in your country" comment might be the must sincere and compassionate advice one can give to many IMGs.
As hard as it must be for many foreign doctors looking for an american education, the doors are closing. While there still might be a physician deficit, the gap is rapidly shrinking, and its being filled by AMGs.
Thats why I consider spreading false hope to underqualified IMGs to be malicious. Many spend their life savings in the pursuit of a dream thats rapidly fading.
If you want any proof, look at the number of unfilled positions after the match, each year it decreases. As a doctor from Latin America I knew the stakes, dont believe everything you hear from businesses like Kaplan.
I matched and I'm grateful, had to work my ***** off to get in, but to argue that we deserve any kind of advantage over AMGs is ignorant to the fact that this is not our country, or just plain ignorant...

 

[SOAPonarope]

the only thing that I consider strange is that the programs are considering AMGs before IMGs regardless of exam scores or previous experience (some IMGs have postgraduate training in their country in the chosen specialty)

in the previous scramble it was a phone/ fax race, now is only "first AMG/ then maybe the others".
the risk is to match someone in a specialty that was not their initial choice (only because they are AMGs and is not good for school reputation to have unmatched students), who maybe after one year will try to reapply.

on the other hand they will leave out IMGs who maybe wanted that specialty from the beginning of this whole process 6 months ago.

Dude, really? You aren't a US citizen. The training system exists to train US Doctors. You attended medical school elsewhere, and as several other posters have alluded: you are perfectly free to train further under THAT system. There is absolutely no reason that our system HAS to cater to you. Why the preference for Americans? Um, again, really?

And for the PC-folks... Get a clue. Nothing that has been said here is offensive. Its the cold hard reality that IMGs need to come to grips with. Quite simply- the US residency selection process was designed to tailor to US medical graduates: this isn't rocket science and it dang sure isn't xenophobia.

Furthermore, this entire process (i.e. increasing med school seats without concomittant increase in res spots) is a premeditated two pronged effort to 1) Fill US spots entirely with US GRADS and 2) Force more US grads into primary care specialties. That's been the stated goal of the AAMC and the ACGME. So yeah, IMG, blame the system if it makes you feel better. Good luck to you next year or the year after that or...

 

[derailed]

I really think this can stop,
at least at for the sordid time being.

 

[albuterolmd]

What about US citizens who are FMG? Back when I was applying for US med schools there weren't a lot of US med school spots at all and people were going to foreign schools in droves.

 

[Bigbro]

Folks appearing for the SOAP. I wish you all success. I just hope all of you match at a program of your choice.

I had tried to ‘scramble' (given a choice I would rather gamble instead) for a couple of years. I would like to point you to the facts and the odds we face during the post match season. I am not here to discourage you, or say nobody has got it.

Read on to see what you are against. But do not lose hope as they say " In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure"


From the NRMP data we can see that there are approximately 23,000 residency positions out of which roughly 1100 were unmatched (from 2010 match results). Assuming that we have a similar trend this year, let us check how this plays out. There were close to 8800 applicants who did not match.

We know that not all AMGs match (95% +- match), some might match to advanced positions but fail to get a PGY1 ( this is the reason I guess there are usually many preliminary positions which are left unfilled) if we assume 3% of ~ 16,000 AMG seniors did not match- that is 480.

Another group of AMGs are graduates of US allopathic medical schools who had applied this year. They have a success rate of 50-60% match- if 600 of them applied- 300 are unmatched and SOAP eligible.

The next group is seniors from US osteopathic medical schools (though they have their own match) some of them participate in this match as independent candidates (like us / with us!) They have a success rate of 70% in the match. If 2000 of them appear for the match- 600 of them are SOAP eligible.

The above list adds up to 480+300+600= 1380 competing for 1100 available spots. Preference is given to these applicants first. It is America, there is nothing wrong in AMGs preferred over FMGs. An FMG should be glad that he is allowed to train here in the US..

Then we have people who are American FMGs (they have their own advantages)- who would be considered next the above mentioned group of applicants- they have at least 2 years of experience working through their 3rd and 4th year of medical school and more importantly they have no visa issues (that is true, having a visa helps- source- the NRMP survey of PDs. I would guess especially in post match scenario visa situation would play a good role).

Even though we enter the post match assuming that there is a 8:1 or 9:1 chance of matching. For an IMG, it is a tough game compared to the regular match.

Take a deep breath, enjoy the spring, spend time with your family, friends and loved ones. Get prepared to attack the next match season with a bang!

Good luck!

 

[DrAwsome]

Likely you were misreading some nonexistent xenophobic vibe in his post. The line about training in their country was, in context with the rest if his paragraph, clearly stating that as indeed the alternative to matching and training here.

Before we go hunting between the lines, it's best to read those lines first.

Thanks, and that's exactly what I was referring to. I mean I find it crazy that some applicants come to a foreign country (the US) and say, hey this system is all screwed up! They are not giving me preference! It's unfair and those evil AMGs/PDs are not treating me fairly!

If IMGs don't like the system we have in place in the US, I don't see why they cannot simply look for a position in their respective countries, and train there! If I was looking for a job abroad and could not get one, I would simply come back to the US and try to look for a job here. Call me crazy like that!

 

[DrAwsome]

Dude, really? You aren't a US citizen. The training system exists to train US Doctors. You attended medical school elsewhere, and as several other posters have alluded: you are perfectly free to train further under THAT system. There is absolutely no reason that our system HAS to cater to you. Why the preference for Americans? Um, again, really?

And for the PC-folks... Get a clue. Nothing that has been said here is offensive. Its the cold hard reality that IMGs need to come to grips with. Quite simply- the US residency selection process was designed to tailor to US medical graduates: this isn't rocket science and it dang sure isn't xenophobia.

Furthermore, this entire process (i.e. increasing med school seats without concomittant increase in res spots) is a premeditated two pronged effort to 1) Fill US spots entirely with US GRADS and 2) Force more US grads into primary care specialties. That's been the stated goal of the AAMC and the ACGME. So yeah, IMG, blame the system if it makes you feel better. Good luck to you next year or the year after that or...

Thanks! I found it kind of crazy that the one poster was telling me how i'm going to destroy my career by saying something that not only is well known by everyone, but also the reality! I said nothing xenophobic at all in any of my posts, simply stating the cold reality as you also point out. And again-call me crazy, but it would be absolutely insane if overall, non-US grads would be given preference!
It is the US, and although it's fine to have spots that are left over by IMGs, it is essential and logical that US grads be given preference. I would even take it one step further and say that we should definitely adopt a system like Canada, where only US citizens are allowed to participate in the main match, and remaining spots are given to anyone else who wants to apply.

 

[DrAwsome]

Surprisingly, the "train in your country" comment might be the must sincere and compassionate advice one can give to many IMGs.
As hard as it must be for many foreign doctors looking for an american education, the doors are closing. While there still might be a physician deficit, the gap is rapidly shrinking, and its being filled by AMGs.
Thats why I consider spreading false hope to underqualified IMGs to be malicious. Many spend their life savings in the pursuit of a dream thats rapidly fading.
If you want any proof, look at the number of unfilled positions after the match, each year it decreases. As a doctor from Latin America I knew the stakes, dont believe everything you hear from businesses like Kaplan.
I matched and I'm grateful, had to work my ***** off to get in, but to argue that we deserve any kind of advantage over AMGs is ignorant to the fact that this is not our country, or just plain ignorant...

I'm glad that you realize that my post had no malice or xenophobic rhetoric to it. I have no problem overall with IMGs as long as they know their stuff, are not lazy, are competent, can speak the language, are ready to work hard, are ready to get used to the culture and the system here, etc. However, as you point out, having the expectation that an IMG would be preferred/taken over an AMG is kinda insane. I find your statement about Kaplan truthful as well-they are a business, and will fill you with insane ideas about possibilities to train here and take your money, even if you realistically have low chances of matching here. I also don't understand why so many IMGs come here to train. I guess I cannot understand it since I trained here, but I would hope for a more humble attitude.

I feel bad as well for IMGs who spend thousands trying to match yet never do, or to find only prelim spots to never actually be allowed into a full blown residency. I have seen it first hand, and it's quite sad. Also, I have seen that a number of IMGs get entitled. I trained with some of them when I did my internship, who constantly complained that the work load was too much, constantly dumped patients on others, had a seriously difficulty with speaking and/or writing, which created problems with patient care. Who wants to deal with that?

Congratulations on matching, and I'm glad that you have a good work ethic!

 

[Mochepoire]

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[PrimaryCareAppl]

In my opinion. The SOAP does favor AMG's and I believe that there is nothing wrong with that. This is actually and improvement, from the old scramble, to favor those who trained in the USA. After all, it is their tax money paying for the funding of all residency programs (I don't believe any country sends money for this purpose). I do feel that the IMG citizens that chose to go abroad for medical training should be second on the list, after all they are good tax paying citizens and do deserve a chance for their effort (However, the thousand of dollars in debt went to those countries where they trained). Lastly, all other positions should go to FMG such as myself who have no debt whatsoever and even though I do pay taxes like anyone else, I will not be adding money to the system in thousands of dollars in loan interest like the IMG do. I know that some people will crucifix me say that it is this kind of attitude that kept me from matching this year (for the second time) and what about the thousands of dollars I spend in applications?. I would answer to that that I personally choose to do that and that the respect to others (specially in their own country and their system) is peace. We should be thankful we are being given an opportunity (as small as it might seems) and should do our best to strive and eventually obtain training in the USA if that is our desire. I would also advice those who did not match this season to prepare themselves for the next one (ace step 3, research, volunteer work, etc). Do not criticize the USA system as this will not bring you peace or a residency position, but instead get ready for the next challenge and meet your destiny.

 

[bambi]

I think the issue with the "train in your own country" thing was more to do with phrasing. It is fine to think things like that and even say them but you need to be very careful about the way you say them. Once you are a doctor you will realise very quickly that even if everyone else feels the same if you say something the wrong way it really can destroy your career so you do need to be careful.

 

[deleted103644]

I think the issue with the "train in your own country" thing was more to do with phrasing. It is fine to think things like that and even say them but you need to be very careful about the way you say them. Once you are a doctor you will realise very quickly that even if everyone else feels the same if you say something the wrong way it really can destroy your career so you do need to be careful.

Don't think he said it the wrong way. The first person who took offense did not appear to be a native speaker so probably misinterpreted.

 

[medicine12]

Don't think he said it the wrong way. The first person who took offense did not appear to be a native speaker so probably misinterpreted.

Correct, but even though I am not a native speaker, everyone else would take it the same way.

And in response to your PM, no I won't send you how many spots are unfilled for which programs because I am too busy and frustrated and it won't help you anyway so it's irrelevant.

 

[deleted103644]

Correct, but even though I am not a native speaker, everyone else would take it the same way.

Sorry, you're wrong. It could have been phrased a bit less bluntly but it clearly was not xenophobic.

As for responding to a PM on a public forum, classy. Failing to match couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

 

[SOAPonarope]

Surprisingly, the "train in your country" comment might be the must sincere and compassionate advice one can give to many IMGs.
As hard as it must be for many foreign doctors looking for an american education, the doors are closing. While there still might be a physician deficit, the gap is rapidly shrinking, and its being filled by AMGs.
Thats why I consider spreading false hope to underqualified IMGs to be malicious. Many spend their life savings in the pursuit of a dream thats rapidly fading.
If you want any proof, look at the number of unfilled positions after the match, each year it decreases. As a doctor from Latin America I knew the stakes, dont believe everything you hear from businesses like Kaplan.
I matched and I'm grateful, had to work my ***** off to get in, but to argue that we deserve any kind of advantage over AMGs is ignorant to the fact that this is not our country, or just plain ignorant...

In my opinion. The SOAP does favor AMG's and I believe that there is nothing wrong with that. This is actually and improvement, from the old scramble, to favor those who trained in the USA. After all, it is their tax money paying for the funding of all residency programs (I don't believe any country sends money for this purpose). I do feel that the IMG citizens that chose to go abroad for medical training should be second on the list, after all they are good tax paying citizens and do deserve a chance for their effort (However, the thousand of dollars in debt went to those countries where they trained). Lastly, all other positions should go to FMG such as myself who have no debt whatsoever and even though I do pay taxes like anyone else, I will not be adding money to the system in thousands of dollars in loan interest like the IMG do. I know that some people will crucifix me say that it is this kind of attitude that kept me from matching this year (for the second time) and what about the thousands of dollars I spend in applications?. I would answer to that that I personally choose to do that and that the respect to others (specially in their own country and their system) is peace. We should be thankful we are being given an opportunity (as small as it might seems) and should do our best to strive and eventually obtain training in the USA if that is our desire. I would also advice those who did not match this season to prepare themselves for the next one (ace step 3, research, volunteer work, etc). Do not criticize the USA system as this will not bring you peace or a residency position, but instead get ready for the next challenge and meet your destiny.

These guys clearly get it, so why is it so hard for you to understand, MP?

my post was not about giving preference to IMGs over AMGs, it was about "equal chances" when they have same credentials.

I know, you will say that you cannot have same credentials when you have graduated abroad.. but I thought that USMLE exams were the ones trying to create an even pool of applicants.

I am not upset about the "train in your own country" comment, I believe that a lot of AMGs are thinking the same. and I hope more and more IMGs will follow the advice, and after that maybe we will see more and more AMGs in those "shortage areas" that are filled right now with J1 waiver IMGs. or maybe we will see more and more shortage areas.

as long as there is a need of physicians, and you have to pass the same medical license examinations as american graduates, I will not consider the training in US a privilege.

Only FMGs serve underserved areas... this is a false premise and I will not address your weak attempt at straw man arguments.

With more US medical school slots and stagnancy in # of resident positions, the weakest US grads will fill primary care slots and go to less desirable areas. FMGs will no longer enter the equation.

In regards to passing the USMLE, it does not instantly equate your medical training to US MD training. The LCME heavily regulates US med schools to the point that training is standardized and the average US grads all meet the same competencies and standards of excellence. Further, all have a similar clinical experience. This simply cannot be said for IMGs because, well, the LCME does not regulate your schooling. Thus, you do NOT have the "same credentials...." I cannot simplify it any further for you.

Also, the purpose of the USMLE is not to "create an even pool of applicants." Per the NBME, USMLE, and FSMB:

"In the United States and its territories, the individual medical licensing authorities ("state medical boards") of the various jurisdictions grant a license to practice medicine. Each medical licensing authority sets its own rules and regulations and requires passing an examination that demonstrates qualification for licensure. Results of the USMLE are reported to these authorities for use in granting the initial license to practice medicine. The USMLE provides them with a common evaluation system for applicants for initial medical licensure.

The USMLE is sponsored by the Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States, Inc. (FSMB), and the National Board of Medical Examiners® (NBME®).
The USMLE assesses a physician's ability to apply knowledge, concepts, and principles, and to demonstrate fundamental patient-centered skills, that are important in health and disease and that constitute the basis of safe and effective patient care. Each of the three Steps of the USMLE complements the others; no Step can stand alone in the assessment of readiness for medical licensure. Because individual medical licensing authorities make decisions regarding use of USMLE results, physicians seeking licensure should contact the jurisdiction where they intend to apply for licensure to obtain complete information."

In other words, the purpose of the USMLE is to assess the competency of a candidate to be eligible for licensure by the individual state medical boards in accordance with the standards of each. It doesn't have jack to do with "creating an even pool of applicants" to residency. It has merely assumed a role of standardization among otherwise similar applicants, because it is a standardized test. Heck, they even state clearly that the individual steps are not to be interpreted as an assessment of readiness for licensure. So without step 3 (post intern year) you don't have any "credentials" (as if passing the USMLE is suddenly a magic gateway...) to truly even be evaluated upon. Furthermore: this assumed role as a standardized comparative criterion most assuredly does NOT apply to IMGs because all other details regarding medical education are NOT equal for these applicants. Sorry, but I'm just stating the facts for you.

 

[DrAwsome]

Sorry, you're wrong. It could have been phrased a bit less bluntly but it clearly was not xenophobic.

As for responding to a PM on a public forum, classy. Failing to match couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Correct again, there is no xenophobia in my post, and it's annoying that MP is trying to make something into what it's not.
If they don't like the system here, no one is forcing them to train here.

 

[K31]

What about US citizens who are FMG? Back when I was applying for US med schools there weren't a lot of US med school spots at all and people were going to foreign schools in droves.

Same advice--train in the US if you want to practice here. It's not like it has ever been easy to get into residency as a US citizen IMG--the success rate in the match has always been around 50% (see Table 6 of this PDF). If you couldn't get into school in the US, going abroad has always been a gamble.

But this crunch in residency positions hasn't come out of nowhere--the AAMC announced the current initiative to increase US grads during my first year of med school, 2005.

 

[DrAwsome]

In my opinion. The SOAP does favor AMG's and I believe that there is nothing wrong with that. This is actually and improvement, from the old scramble, to favor those who trained in the USA. After all, it is their tax money paying for the funding of all residency programs (I don't believe any country sends money for this purpose). I do feel that the IMG citizens that chose to go abroad for medical training should be second on the list, after all they are good tax paying citizens and do deserve a chance for their effort (However, the thousand of dollars in debt went to those countries where they trained). Lastly, all other positions should go to FMG such as myself who have no debt whatsoever and even though I do pay taxes like anyone else, I will not be adding money to the system in thousands of dollars in loan interest like the IMG do. I know that some people will crucifix me say that it is this kind of attitude that kept me from matching this year (for the second time) and what about the thousands of dollars I spend in applications?. I would answer to that that I personally choose to do that and that the respect to others (specially in their own country and their system) is peace. We should be thankful we are being given an opportunity (as small as it might seems) and should do our best to strive and eventually obtain training in the USA if that is our desire. I would also advice those who did not match this season to prepare themselves for the next one (ace step 3, research, volunteer work, etc). Do not criticize the USA system as this will not bring you peace or a residency position, but instead get ready for the next challenge and meet your destiny.

So what about all the $$ you spent? I spent thousands of dollars too, even as an AMG. Not sure how you spending money gives you an edge over someone else? As an AMG, I didn't have it easy matching, and I come from a pretty good school, have very good credentials, an advanced degree in addition to my MD, etc. etc. You even mention that you have no debt, so makes even less sense to pick you over an AMG with tons of loans who are going to rear their ugly heads in 6 months!

And training in your own country is a perfectly naive comment. As I said many times-if I go to the UK, Canada, etc. I will not be a PD's first choice, and I am not even ALLOWED to go into the first stage of the match in Canada at all!!! Canada makes no excuses for preferring their own students, which makes perfect sense!

If you feel the American system is so unfair and evil, nothing is preventing you from:
A) Not applying here
B) Doing residency in your own country

I've said my peace. If IMGs want to continue applying, that's their choice, but the system is what it is, and yes, it's meant to favor AMGs.

 

[SOAPonarope]

So what about all the $$ you spent? I spent thousands of dollars too, even as an AMG. Not sure how you spending money gives you an edge over someone else? As an AMG, I didn't have it easy matching, and I come from a pretty good school, have very good credentials, an advanced degree in addition to my MD, etc. etc. You even mention that you have no debt, so makes even less sense to pick you over an AMG with tons of loans who are going to rear their ugly heads in 6 months!

And training in your own country is a perfectly naive comment. As I said many times-if I go to the UK, Canada, etc. I will not be a PD's first choice, and I am not even ALLOWED to go into the first stage of the match in Canada at all!!! Canada makes no excuses for preferring their own students, which makes perfect sense!

If you feel the American system is so unfair and evil, nothing is preventing you from:
A) Not applying here
B) Doing residency in your own country

I've said my peace. If IMGs want to continue applying, that's their choice, but the system is what it is, and yes, it's meant to favor AMGs.

Game. Set. Match.

 

[medicine12]

Game. Set. Match.

Why do I get the impression that you and DrAwsome are the same person?

By the way, I am an IMG and I'm not against anything you have said. I was only referring to the way you phrase it, but yes I am not a native speaker so I might be wrong

 

[SOAPonarope]

Why do I get the impression that you and DrAwsome are the same person?

By the way, I am an IMG and I'm not against anything you have said. I was only referring to the way you phrase it, but yes I am not a native speaker so I might be wrong

Probably because we both are logical people that agree that you can feel free to not apply to train here if you feel it is unfair. Guess our "healthcare system is going down" without you... That is what you said, right? Narcissistic much? If you want to know why you didn't match, you should realize that kind of stuff comes through during interviews...

While we're on the subject: are you and mochepoire the same person? Because everybody that agrees with anyone else certainly must be the same guy on a diff. username right?

You've lashed out at pretty much everybody who is just trying to talk common sense to you. So I'll just echo their sentiment and say "Good luck to you." Not going to flame away with you, friend. You know as well as anybody else I'm sure: your level of success is directly correlated with your attitude. Have a great day

 

[Newbie212]

I love lamp.

 

[medicine12]

Probably because we both are logical people that agree that you can feel free to not apply to train here if you feel it is unfair. Guess our "healthcare system is going down" without you... That is what you said, right? Narcissistic much? If you want to know why you didn't match, you should realize that kind of stuff comes through during interviews...

While we're on the subject: are you and mochepoire the same person? Because everybody that agrees with anyone else certainly must be the same guy on a diff. username right?

You've lashed out at pretty much everybody who is just trying to talk common sense to you. So I'll just echo their sentiment and say "Good luck to you." Not going to flame away with you, friend. You know as well as anybody else I'm sure: your level of success is directly correlated with your attitude. Have a great day

Dude, relax! Did you join the forum just to write on this thread? I am narcissistic and an aweful applicant, cheers!

 

[Mochepoire]

.

 

[Law2Doc]

my post was not about giving preference to IMGs over AMGs, it was about "equal chances" when they have same credentials.

I know, you will say that you cannot have same credentials when you have graduated abroad.. but I thought that USMLE exams were the ones trying to create an even pool of applicants...

um no. The USMLE exams are simply minimum competency tests, they aren't meant to demonstrate an equivalency to US education. This is what seems to frustrate IMGs a lot in the process -- they have to have much better scores just to even be looked at for less competitive paths, simply because this isn't the primary yardstick at play here. The problem with your notion is suggesting that US and IMG folks are ever going to have the same credentials. In fact, all US residencies put great stock in the LCME oversight of US training, and put great weight on that branding. That you know medicine and practiced elsewhere and did well on the USMLE is nice, but you aren't being hired for your knowledge, you are being hired to be someone who effortlessly can jump into the US system, and make patients ad attendings happy and not cause your PD any headaches. Being smart is great, but knowing your way around the US system. More important to PDs. The LCME makes sure US programs train people in certain standard US hospital based ways and the PD knows what it's getting. Basically what I'm saying is that for a PD, a good sub-I in a LCME accredited US school trumps a decade of experience and top board scores elsewhere.


I tend to agree with prior posters that SOAP is a huge disadvantage to IMGs as compared to the previous scramble. In the past places grabbed well credentialed foreigners who got them on the line first, out of fear that they wouldn't get applications from US folks. Now they have time to see what their choices are, and realize that they can land a few more US people. It takes the quick trigger out of the game, and that was something that really worked in the IMGs favor.

 

[punch]

anyone getting offers without being interviewed?

 

[Mochepoire]

.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Actually, I'm not certain that there really is a huge disadvantage to IMG's in SOAP. US Grads almost always got through on the phone first -- partially because any call from a Dean would be routed to me directly (rather than to one of my office staff to write down the details), and because it seemed like the Deans probably got the list a bit earlier than everyone else (no proof, just my gut instinct) giving USMG's a jump on spots.

That being said, since SOAP slows the process down, it does give US grads more time to apply broadly, and that probably will impact IMG post-matching to some extent.

I guess my point was that the pre-SOAP scramble wasn't fun for IMG's in the first place. Whether this is the same, or a bit worse, is unclear. We'll never know, since the NRMP never measured how anyone did in the scramble, we won't have any way to compare this year's performance to last.

I do agree with L2D about the USMLE. USMLE measures one thing -- ability to recall facts on an exam. There is much more to medicine than that. Hence, a USMG and an IMG with the same USMLE are not the same, as the USMG has (usually) much more US experience, which is clearly valuable.

 

[Mochepoire]

aProgDirector, thank you very much!

 

[Chalo1986]

I love lamp.

Stay classy, sdn....

 

[Law2Doc]

aProgDirector, thank you very much! from what I heard going into scramble was the worst outcome for IMGs, and finding a position was nearly impossible. my hope that SOAP will be different was only wishfull thinking. anyway, I will rank another 5 positions until Friday. after that I will start to plan my next move for the new application session

The bottom line is that for now the number of residency spots outnumbers the number of US grads, so there are spots out there that will be filled with IMGs, regardless of the scramble/SOAP system used, so don't give up, but definitely be realistic. The US grad that didn't get ortho and wants that radiology spot on SOAP is going to get it before any IMG. But that FM spot in an underserved less desirable part of the US is probably up for grabs.