Any insight on path from MD to OMFS? Thinking of switching to dentistry.

[BANGO]

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[Frazier]

A couple things...

Yes, most likely all of the above cases you mentioned were OMFS matches that finished dental school, then did the required med school requirements to get their MD.

There are two OMFS students is my class. They basically only show up for years 3 and 4 since they completed the majority of MS1/MS2 classes in dental school.

From what I read a while back, you will be hard pressed to get a OMFS spot without going back and doing dental school. There is a big old gatekeeper in place at the OMFS residencies and they largely want people from the dental background.

Stinks because OMFS does look like an interesting specialty when it comes to procedures.

But cheers to you for not settling and going for what you want. If you would be happier as a general dentist than a physician, you are smart to get out ASAP.

Sounds like you have it all planned out as your next steps. Good luck.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Just know that OMFS is (I believe) one of the hardest sub-specialties to match into after dental school, on par with orthodontics. You must ask yourself, god forbid you don't absolutely destroy dental school, 'would I be happy being a general dentist (or some other sub-specialty within dentistry)? If the answer is yes, then go for it.

For the record, if you stick with MD, both Plastics and ENT can have some overlap with OMFS for reconstructive surgery.

As for the people that matched OMFS, I know at my school they were dentists who were doing a OMFS residency, did the 3rd and 4th year of medical school, and got their MDs.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

This has been asked a few times before and I believe some posters have thrown out anecdotal evidence that certain OMFS programs are open to taking MD applicants.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Haha yeah but then you stick him with two of the most competitive matches from med school as his other options. Plastics and ENT are probably on par with matching into OMFS from dental school and if you can match into those from med school, you can probably rock dental school and match OMFS if you really want to.

Fair point. Although if he can see himself in plastics/ENT he doesn't have to waste this year of medical school (as I imagine dentistry school will not accept a transfer per se).

 

[lykyamy00]

i'm pretty sure i heard of someone from my school who graduated ent residency and went to plastics fellowship and intends to do omfs after because this person wants to fix cleft palates on kids. not exactly sure if omfs is what this person is doing after plastics but i know they wanted to do something like that

 

[BurghStudent]

Another option might be transferring to a dental school that has a partner medical school. I.e. and this is just an example, Harvard Medical School and Harvard School of Dental Medicine students take classes together the first year. This might allow you to transfer some of your courses from M1. I'm not sure what the application cycle for dental school is, but my guess is you'd want to look into this ASAP.

 

[BANGO]

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[Screwtape]

Welcome aboard the dental train BANGO! Your first year classes in medical school should definitely help you kill some of the 1st and 2nd year dental classes. There is a lot of good info here on the dental forums if you decide to fully commit to the switch. Good luck on your future endeavors!

 

[BANGO]

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[member1000765]

i'm pretty sure i heard of someone from my school who graduated ent residency and went to plastics fellowship and intends to do omfs after because this person wants to fix cleft palates on kids. not exactly sure if omfs is what this person is doing after plastics but i know they wanted to do something like that

My guess is that the person you have heard about is doing a craniofacial surgery fellowship, not OMFS. If that person did ENT followed by Plastics, not only would they have far exceeded the training they would receive doing an OMFS residency (there just wouldn't be a reason for that training, it would already have all been covered twice), but they would already know how to fix cleft lips/palates (from either their ENT training, plastics training or both). Craniofacial surgery is an additional fellowship on top of plastics for those surgeons who want to completely specialize in treating the most severe pediatric craniofacial disorders (e.g. doing cranioplasties with neurosurgeons for craniosynostosis, cleft lips/palates, maxilla or mandibular distraction, fixing Treacher-Collins kids, etc.) Very cool stuff, and yes, a very long road to get there.

 

[deleted547631]

I am currently an M1 at an MD school. During undergrad I aspired to med school but near the end did some assisting with an oral surgeon and really loved it. By the time I seriously thought about pursuing dental school, I had already nailed the MCAT and submitted my AMCAS and felt like a **** for even thinking of changing course. Besides, my physician mentors told me of how many great fields there are in medicine...so I'm not sure if I still just havn't found them or if I won't find them. I got some ENT and plastics exposure over winter break too (as was recommended) but I didn't like the scope/culture/environment nearly as much as OMFS. Anyway, I scanned the 2013 match results and found these oral surgery matches from med schools:

2 matches from Drexel, 3 matches from UT Houston, 2 from USC, 1 from Jefferson, 3 from Penn, 6 from UT Southwestern, 2 from Mount Sinai

I checked out all the program websites that these students matched at and couldn’t find anything about any MD --> DDS --> OMS path. Every program states you need a DDS/DMD to apply. Anyone have any insight into this? Are these students above ones that already completed dental school and have just finished the medical studies of their 6 year residency? Or are they going into programs that allow them to complete their dental degree then begin residency? I will call to find out but just wanted to see if I can gain some clarification. I don't go to one of the above med schools if that matters (which it seems like it does as its just these clusters going into OMFS).

I am aware that oral surgery is very hard to get into, but even it didn't work out I think I'd enjoy being a general dentist (did shadowing here too) more than I would being in most medical specialties I have experienced (I tried but my personality doesn't seem to fit well with family, peds, internal, psych, OB/GYN). I have a slight interest in ENT, EM, PM&R, and gas but don't think the practice environment/culture/lifestyle fit me as well as OMS and dentistry. If I find out that this MD to OMS path is essentially impossible, I plan on finishing this semester and then apply for dental schools this summer. The finances in doing this switch are negligible and would be worth it to me. I met someone who dropped out of med school (no failures) and is in his 3rd year of dental school and has tips for me as far as gaining acceptance. Any recommendations/insight anyone can give on my situation would be awesome. Thanks!

Here's a thread buried deep in the dental resident section that might also help with finding contacts for programs that have a history of taking medical students: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/m-d-d-o-grad-and-omfs.500885/#post-6311065

A fourth-year dental student in my program is on the HPSP scholarship and recently matched into OMFS at USAF David Grant Medical Center at Travis AFB. I can ask him any questions you may have if you'd like! He is part of the first class that had to take the NBME CBSE for dental HPSP.

On another note, I've actually been pondering a switch to medicine - I've really been enjoying my biomedical courses over the dental lab courses and I believe much of this is due to the fact that the chair of biomedical sciences and director of pre-clinical curriculum at my program is an MD.

 

[BANGO]

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[growinpains]

I am currently an M1 at an MD school. During undergrad I aspired to med school but near the end did some assisting with an oral surgeon and really loved it. By the time I seriously thought about pursuing dental school, I had already nailed the MCAT and submitted my AMCAS and felt like a **** for even thinking of changing course. Besides, my physician mentors told me of how many great fields there are in medicine...so I'm not sure if I still just havn't found them or if I won't find them. I got some ENT and plastics exposure over winter break too (as was recommended) but I didn't like the scope/culture/environment nearly as much as OMFS. Anyway, I scanned the 2013 match results and found these oral surgery matches from med schools:

2 matches from Drexel, 3 matches from UT Houston, 2 from USC, 1 from Jefferson, 3 from Penn, 6 from UT Southwestern, 2 from Mount Sinai

I checked out all the program websites that these students matched at and couldn’t find anything about any MD --> DDS --> OMS path. Every program states you need a DDS/DMD to apply. Anyone have any insight into this? Are these students above ones that already completed dental school and have just finished the medical studies of their 6 year residency? Or are they going into programs that allow them to complete their dental degree then begin residency? I will call to find out but just wanted to see if I can gain some clarification. I don't go to one of the above med schools if that matters (which it seems like it does as its just these clusters going into OMFS).

I am aware that oral surgery is very hard to get into, but even it didn't work out I think I'd enjoy being a general dentist (did shadowing here too) more than I would being in most medical specialties I have experienced (I tried but my personality doesn't seem to fit well with family, peds, internal, psych, OB/GYN). I have a slight interest in ENT, EM, PM&R, and gas but don't think the practice environment/culture/lifestyle fit me as well as OMS and dentistry. If I find out that this MD to OMS path is essentially impossible, I plan on finishing this semester and then apply for dental schools this summer. The finances in doing this switch are negligible and would be worth it to me. I met someone who dropped out of med school (no failures) and is in his 3rd year of dental school and has tips for me as far as gaining acceptance. Any recommendations/insight anyone can give on my situation would be awesome. Thanks!

Hey Bango, I have the exact same feeling you do. I am having a little buyer's remorse as a 3rd year at Harvard. I have friends in the Mass General OMFS program, and I really like it. I totally get the personality thing... It's so true. Anyway, I am wondering what you found out. There is little to no information out there on the issue. I know there was someone who did the HarvardMGH OMFS program but dropped after he figured out he had to pay tuition (went ENT), so I don't know how open they are to it. I would love to be in contact with you to figure this out.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

I am currently an M1 at an MD school. During undergrad I aspired to med school but near the end did some assisting with an oral surgeon and really loved it. By the time I seriously thought about pursuing dental school, I had already nailed the MCAT and submitted my AMCAS and felt like a **** for even thinking of changing course. Besides, my physician mentors told me of how many great fields there are in medicine...so I'm not sure if I still just havn't found them or if I won't find them. I got some ENT and plastics exposure over winter break too (as was recommended) but I didn't like the scope/culture/environment nearly as much as OMFS. Anyway, I scanned the 2013 match results and found these oral surgery matches from med schools:

2 matches from Drexel, 3 matches from UT Houston, 2 from USC, 1 from Jefferson, 3 from Penn, 6 from UT Southwestern, 2 from Mount Sinai

I checked out all the program websites that these students matched at and couldn’t find anything about any MD --> DDS --> OMS path. Every program states you need a DDS/DMD to apply. Anyone have any insight into this? Are these students above ones that already completed dental school and have just finished the medical studies of their 6 year residency? Or are they going into programs that allow them to complete their dental degree then begin residency? I will call to find out but just wanted to see if I can gain some clarification. I don't go to one of the above med schools if that matters (which it seems like it does as its just these clusters going into OMFS).

I am aware that oral surgery is very hard to get into, but even it didn't work out I think I'd enjoy being a general dentist (did shadowing here too) more than I would being in most medical specialties I have experienced (I tried but my personality doesn't seem to fit well with family, peds, internal, psych, OB/GYN). I have a slight interest in ENT, EM, PM&R, and gas but don't think the practice environment/culture/lifestyle fit me as well as OMS and dentistry. If I find out that this MD to OMS path is essentially impossible, I plan on finishing this semester and then apply for dental schools this summer. The finances in doing this switch are negligible and would be worth it to me. I met someone who dropped out of med school (no failures) and is in his 3rd year of dental school and has tips for me as far as gaining acceptance. Any recommendations/insight anyone can give on my situation would be awesome. Thanks!

I know at my program, the dental students take all the classes the med students take in M1 and parts of M2. So, if your dental and med curriculum are similar early one, it might be worth looking into the dental program at your med school (if they have a dental program) and asking if you can transfer over.

 

[DermViser]

Hey Bango, I have the exact same feeling you do. I am having a little buyer's remorse as a 3rd year at Harvard. I have friends in the Mass General OMFS program, and I really like it. I totally get the personality thing... It's so true. Anyway, I am wondering what you found out. There is little to no information out there on the issue. I know there was someone who did the HarvardMGH OMFS program but dropped after he figured out he had to pay tuition (went ENT), so I don't know how open they are to it. I would love to be in contact with you to figure this out.

Wow, and I thought the carpet was rolled out for Harvard medical students in terms of good grades, etc.

 

[DermViser]

I know at my program, the dental students take all the classes the med students take in M1 and parts of M2. So, if your dental and med curriculum are similar early one, it might be worth looking into the dental program at your med school (if they have a dental program) and asking if you can transfer over.

Harvard does this actually!

 

[maxxor]

Wow, and I thought the carpet was rolled out for Harvard medical students in terms of good grades, etc.

...please. They rotate at some of the toughest hospitals and have a strict curve on grades for clinical rotations.

 

[DermViser]

...please. They rotate at some of the toughest hospitals and have a strict curve on grades for clinical rotations.

You mean High Honors vs. Honors? The hospitals are very prestigious but I highly doubt they would say only a certain percentage of students are allowed the top most grade. Harvard is synonymous with grade inflation. Only Harvard can get away with 15 people in a class matching into Derm.

 

[maxxor]

You mean High Honors vs. Honors? The hospitals are very prestigious but I highly doubt they would say only a certain percentage of students are allowed the top most grade. Harvard is synonymous with grade inflation. Only Harvard can get away with 15 people in a class matching into Derm.

There is a strict curve for the grade distribution. No more than 30% are allowed high honors on all rotations. Neurology has a reputation for only giving high honors to 10% of students. They also have tough minimum percentile requirements for the shelf exams that are normalized to the school, not nationally. You must get above 80th percentile to be eligible for high honors on medicine for example.

Source: my third year students.

 

[DermViser]

There is a strict curve for the grade distribution. No more than 30% are allowed high honors on all rotations. Neurology has a reputation for only giving high honors to 10% of students. They also have tough minimum percentile requirements for the shelf exams that are normalized to the school, not nationally. You must get above 80th percentile to be eligible for high honors on medicine for example.

Source: my third year students.

I'm surprised that Harvard Medical School would even use NBME shelf exams for their clerkships, that most other medical school use for standardization. Yale, for example, at least till now doesn't use shelf exams.

 

[maxxor]

I'm surprised that Harvard Medical School would even use NBME shelf exams for their clerkships, that most other medical school use for standardization. Yale, for example, at least till now doesn't use shelf exams.

They use them for all clerkships. The stressor is that you are compared to the year immediately prior's results, so a > 80%ile is better than 80% of the cohort of HMS students 1 year before you.

That's a tough bar to leap over.

 

[DermViser]

They use them for all clerkships. The stressor is that you are compared to the year immediately prior's results, so a > 80%ile is better than 80% of the cohort of HMS students 1 year before you.

That's a tough bar to leap over.

Yikes!

 

[growinpains]

Wow, and I thought the carpet was rolled out for Harvard medical students in terms of good grades, etc.

Yeah, the carpet is rolled out. The clerkships are great. I have immense opportunity, but I really love oral surg. When I first decided to pursue medicine, I wanted to fix cleft lips/palates with an organization called Operation Smile. I still find myself drawn to OMFS. Sure, if I don't do OMFS, I will likely do plastics or get into it via derm or ophtho. My buyer's remorse doesn't step from grades or mistreatment, just perhaps not having the opportunity to pursue the career I like most.

 

[growinpains]

There is a strict curve for the grade distribution. No more than 30% are allowed high honors on all rotations. Neurology has a reputation for only giving high honors to 10% of students. They also have tough minimum percentile requirements for the shelf exams that are normalized to the school, not nationally. You must get above 80th percentile to be eligible for high honors on medicine for example.

Source: my third year students.

It's really supposed to be 15% get HD (honors with distinction), and pretty much the rest get honors. I think the goal is to get HD in a couple of things and one would be considered top notch. After all, the competition isn't exactly weak.

 

[maxxor]

It's really supposed to be 15% get HD (honors with distinction), and pretty much the rest get honors.

Interesting. My students tell me that between the High Honors vs Honors with Distinction changes, the tough shelf requirements, and the general insanity of third year grading, it's gotten a lot harder to go straight high honors / honors with distinction like it used to be. Apparently getting 6/8 core clerkships as HH happened every now and then, but getting 6/8 HD is unheard of.

 

[DermViser]

Interesting. My students tell me that between the High Honors vs Honors with Distinction changes, the tough shelf requirements, and the general insanity of third year grading, it's gotten a lot harder to go straight high honors / honors with distinction like it used to be. Apparently getting 6/8 core clerkships as HH happened every now and then, but getting 6/8 HD is unheard of.

Yes, oops, this must be a recent change - I guess High Honors no longer exists: http://hms.harvard.edu/departments/...tion-and-policies/203-grading-and-examination
Apparently the distribution is:

• Honors with Distinction: up to 30%
• Honors: 50-60%
• Pass: 10-15%

 

[Dave89]

Harvard does this actually!

Harvard lets med students transfer to dental school without taking the DAT? Or were you just talking about their sharing classes?

 

[DermViser]

Harvard lets med students transfer to dental school without taking the DAT? Or were you just talking about their sharing classes?

Not sure. I believe HMS students and Harvard Dental School students take their basic sciences together. I could be wrong on this.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Double post.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Yeah, the carpet is rolled out. The clerkships are great. I have immense opportunity, but I really love oral surg. When I first decided to pursue medicine, I wanted to fix cleft lips/palates with an organization called Operation Smile. I still find myself drawn to OMFS. Sure, if I don't do OMFS, I will likely do plastics or get into it via derm or ophtho. My buyer's remorse doesn't step from grades or mistreatment, just perhaps not having the opportunity to pursue the career I like most.

Have you thought about otolaryngology? Tremendous overlap with OMFS: craniomaxillofacial trauma, oral surgery, head and neck oncology and reconstruction, mix of procedure-heavy outpatient clinic and surgery. You have the option of doing bread and butter cases all day (tubes and tonsils vs. wisdom teeth and implants) or going nuts with major head and neck oncology (much larger market for otolaryngologists; there are only a few places in the country that do a good amount of H&N for OMFS so Harvard might be skewing your perspective).

Derm doesn't really do plastics aside from some office-based stuff like botox, fillers, peels (AFAIK), unless you do a Mohs fellowship. Ophtho plastics is basically confined to oculoplastics (hope you like blephs).

If you really want to do clefts, plastics has the market cornered, but there are few places where ENT does a good amount of clefts: Arkansas, Colorado, Pitt, etc. Doing clefts essentially requires a pediatrics fellowship.

 

[PL198]

why the f*ck do they have honors and honors with distinction? so if you just got honors from a harvard m3 rotation, is that considered comparable to honors(which would be the highest grade in most other places) at somewhere else(completely excluding it's the fact that it's harvard and of course that would be prestigious). I guess I just don't see how they'd make up their own grades basically and where the avg person(50-60%) get the same thing that I feel certainly less than 50-60% of other school students get.

 

[operaman]

why the f*ck do they have honors and honors with distinction? so if you just got honors from a harvard m3 rotation, is that considered comparable to honors(which would be the highest grade in most other places) at somewhere else(completely excluding it's the fact that it's harvard and of course that would be prestigious). I guess I just don't see how they'd make up their own grades basically and where the avg person(50-60%) get the same thing that I feel certainly less than 50-60% of other school students get.

My thoughts:

1) Any PD with half a brain can see that their H = HP.

2) Any PD who can't see that is not somebody I want to spend 5+ years with as a resident.

 

[PL198]

My thoughts:

1) Any PD with half a brain can see that their H = HP.

2) Any PD who can't see that is not somebody I want to spend 5+ years with as a resident.

After your post, I said "get rekt" to myself , I guess the fact that it's Harvard I was fishing for them to have some BS exception where their honors is held to the same standard as normal honors or something like that.

 

[DermViser]

why the f*ck do they have honors and honors with distinction? so if you just got honors from a harvard m3 rotation, is that considered comparable to honors(which would be the highest grade in most other places) at somewhere else(completely excluding it's the fact that it's harvard and of course that would be prestigious). I guess I just don't see how they'd make up their own grades basically and where the avg person(50-60%) get the same thing that I feel certainly less than 50-60% of other school students get.

Some schools do "Superior", "Outstanding", "Excellent", etc. as grades.