Any integrative medicine doctors? How did you pursue you education? Advice/guidance?

[Tuximus]

I'm seriously interested in becoming an integrative medicine doctor (DO or MD) with a solid understanding of acupuncture and Eastern medicine philosophy. I've been at a loss for exactly how to most efficiently and effectively obtain both educations. I already have a BA (GPA 3.75 with departmental honors) from a small private liberal arts in music/art, worked for 5yrs, and returned to school at a good community college (current GPA 3.85) to fulfill all the medical prerequisites basically from scratch (aka algebra). Next year I will complete ochem/study for MCAT and am on track for either:

1) Masters in acupuncture/oriental medicine (AOM) OR
2) Straight into MD or DO school if accepted

So I have three main questions:

1) Since I had to start my prereqs back at algebra I basically have enough credits/one more year in which I could transfer next year to a state university and receive a second Bachelor's (of science this time) for all my prerequisite coursework I have done OR just finish all my prereqs at my community college which actually has a quite rigorous science department and good ochem professor with an AS, which doesn't really stand to a BS from a big state university. Should I go for the second BS or would it even matter since I already have a BA?

2) After I finish my prereqs, I'm currently trying to decide if I should get my Masters in AOM first (3/4yrs) then medical school OR just go straight to med school and somehow get the AOM/integrative medicine training later? A Masters first would probably be more expensive but I think med school would be easier because I would have a working knowledge of the body even if in a totally different context. Also if I don't do well on the MCAT first time around I would have more time to study up (but also more time to forget...). If I go straight to med school after my prereqs I could be done 3/4yrs soon but I'm not sure how an MD/DO would go about getting additional AOM training after med school? I know there is medical acupuncture training available but I don't think it covers the depth of a Masters in AOM...

3) How long are prerequisites good for? If I pursued a Masters first, it would be a 4yr gap and I'm worried my prereqs won't be valid, especially without a BS tagged to it. I know MCAT is good for 4yr...?

I've thought a lot about how to go about this with not much guidance and rolled around many options, applying to schools that have integrative medicine departments, osteopathic schools, medical acupuncture... I'm also 29 and thinking about the timeline of having a family in my mid/late thirties so aside from whether or not I get good MCAT scores/accepted to med school, any advice on your experience or suggestions would be much appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DrMidlife]

What I've seen when people want to merge complementary/alternative medicine with western medicine, is that they really want the prestige/sanction/reputation of an MD under a complementary/alternative practice. Not a quack! An MD! There is a minimum of seven years of very western, very pharm-centric, very regulated training to get an MD, and even if you land at a residency site that promotes integrated healing, 99.5% of that most-of-a-decade can have exactly nothing to do with integrated healing.

So in terms of years spent getting to your practice, you appear to be 2+7+ years from your MD practice, and that's with no time for training in acupuncture or other modalities. You have maybe 1-2 months during 4th year on an elective, and maybe 3 months total on electives during an FM residency.

Meanwhile, with acupuncture and other modalities, when you are done with school you have a tiny speck of knowledge that must be nurtured over a lifetime, with humility, if you want to be somebody who can be called a "healer" without irony. If you want to start down the path to being a wise and learned practitioner of an ancient art, do you also want to carry the responsibility to be a board-certified MD? Point being, the 3-4 years of AOM to get qualified make you a novice, not a practitioner. (This line of thinking can be reversed and applied to MD, with most of the adjectives intact.)

What I suggest:

1. Start finding people who are doing what you want to do. Maybe they are ND's in Austin, maybe they are DO's in Portland, maybe they are MD's who did OMM/CAM training in Cleveland. Maybe they only work with oncology patients or patients with fibromyalgia. Maybe they are nurse practitioners. Step away from the MD to identify the job you want to have, and find a lot of people who are doing something similar. Assume that about half the people you find who appear to be doing what you want are not actually doing it (this is true in all fields). Find some mentors.

2. Spend a lot of time in the worst health care "system" in the developed world, which is what you're required to do in med school and residency. Get an understanding of how providers are paid. Figure out if the patients who would most benefit from integrative healing can pay for it. Or are your future integrated care patients only going to be wealthy, or only in particular pockets in particular states, and is that what you want? Are you actually willing to write thousands of prescriptions for drugs you don't believe in, to earn the right to guide patients through another kind of treatment?

Regardless, med school and residency are ridiculously difficult and expensive and life-sucking and disappointing, with occasional breaks of sunshine. Good lord don't go down this path if you aren't going to stick with it and get through it and use it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Patassa]

Medical School 4 years
Primary Care residency 3-4 years
2 year fellowship through U of Arizona Integrative Medicine Program

This seems to be the less "quack" approach, in my opinion. Others may disagree.

The U of A program seems to be the main game in town. If you peruse the Duke Center for Integrative Medicine website (and others like it) you'll find that most of the physicians doing Integrative Medicine were trained through Dr. Weil's program at U of Arizona Medical School.

 

[FunkyHealer]

Thank you DrMidlife for telling it how it is. I've read 2 of your postings so far and I kindof shiver at your accuracy

I can say from personal experience, that an MSTOM program is NO JOKE. At least not from a reputable establishment. My immediate thought is to call a school that offers both and ask them how they would work w a dual degree seeker. Chicago College of Osteopathic Med is positioned near 3 MSTOM colleges; maybe they have worked w dual degree seekers before? Pacific College of Oriental Med may be your best bet.

 

[DrMason]

My wife is a fellow of Age-management and I am trained in FM, SPM and also now a fellow in BHRT. We both intend to join Dr Weil's IM fellowship later on and have already gotten "pre-approved". We had university faculty that had trained with Andrew Weil along with their MD/Phd in our residency as well

It is gaining more and more acceptance (not really a serious issue any more) and presence this is why many urbanites now use ND's as PCP, because they want a more integrative approach. As an integrative medicine practitioner, you breathe it, live it and practice it with every patient you see. The evidence based/methodology/turf war with mainstream is VERY aggressive and you better know your things!! A friend of mine is a GI doctor that have turned VA evaluator and acupuncturist. I am currently training in how to apply EMDR (http://www.ptsdsupport.net/emdr.html) on vets with PTSD and we are now trying to contract with our regional VA for a two year trial period. Needless to say, there is a multitude of things you can do and approach this way. I also treat ED for veterans which often happens due to the meds they are on along with another problem that is DE( Delayed ejaculation).

Now, how has the term evolved? In the past, the term alternative medicine was often more used, but is NOT the same. In the past, we had many MD's that practiced alternative modalities, but not under the auspices of their MD. For example, I know a radiologist that does Reikki healing and Yoga practitioner. I went back into this field part time after I had such a huge burn-out from the normal hamster race. My wife had a legal situation with an employer (nothing about medicine) that sucked al energy out of us as well. Once this was over (in her favor), we both crept back to Integrative medicine, but also opted out of ALL third party stuff for several reasons. Now, I work one day a week as MD and I work as custom stone Mason (my specialty is dry stonewalls) 4 other days and "rest" on weekends.
Integrative Medicine is most correctly defined as being able to blend allopathic medicine with CAM (complimentary&alternative Medicine) for a net result better than both. Philosophically, you could make an argument that even Oxygen supplementation is "alternative" as well. More importantly, if you apply principles that are not always established, but have anecdotal clinical suspicion of an improved outcome, it is integrative medicine. SO if you tell a patient to have chewing gum post-op, while he is NPO to stimulate peristalsis in select responsible patients, this can help and you can even find data on it now.

Mixing a compounded drug with a regular one, could also be named as Integrative Medicine. A while back, in organized medicine, I was chastised for having a patient on Warfarin and Armor Thyroid. An endocrinologist chewed me out as well. Interestingly enough, this is also a mix Hillary Clinton is on now and Medicare does NOT cover Armor.

Our healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional, but I think the main reason is the fragmentation of our healthcare. To use a cliché, one cannot see the forest, because only the trees code for something. The old term of "Healing" is another term, mostly scoffed at today by establishment. Healing is not magic, but combines restoration, repair and rejuvenation. The old Norse definition is "to make whole ,<again>" and not some "LayOnHands" depiction or "snake oil". It is terrifying to be in this field at times due to the constant attacks and vile vitriol we often get from other healthcare people, unfortunately mostly MD's, is depressing and sad, but it cannot stop what is going on. One of my friends is a soccer physician for an MLS team and he complains that he does not know enough CAM. TigerWoods flies around the world to get PRP, Falcao' was under intense HBOT for ACL reconstruction to speed up his recovery. None of this is "evidence based", so therefore whoever did this were mere frauds according to the experts.

How did Integrative Medicine start in USA? Goes back to Nixon era. One of his press corps had appendicitis in China during the table tennis glasnost. The handling of pain was mainly dealt with by acupuncture. It has been (and continues to be) a tough road, but never a day of bore, even as I only do it one day a week My wife normally has two medical students rotating with her and it is very popular elective in that school. IM is real, it is evolving and anyone who still resorts to "snake oil"; "quack"; "scam" rhetoric are simply worthless. By the time you finish BHRT will be more normal for a guy than to have a colonoscopy (I PREDICT).

Finally, acupuncture is a beautiful field and CAN effectively be learned after becoming an attending MD as well. My concern with doing it first, unless it is super-rigorous is inability to practice the art during medical school/residency. I would contact University of Arizona Dept of Integrative medicine for more up to date advice.

All the best and good luck.