Any MD/PhD sistas out there??

[GlycoNE1]

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A shout-out to any MD/PhD chicas,
Have any of you viewed sideways for being a FEMALE MD/PhD applicant? One of my interviewers (female, in her late 60s) actually asked me WHEN i'm planning on having a family and basically tried to color the picture that there are more negs. to being a female phys-scientist than positives. I know in reality there ARE more hurdles for women, but geez, talk about inappropriate q's and comments for a motivated and (as competitive-as-males) female applicant. I mean, would she ask the same questions of a male applicant?

Goodluck to you gals! Don't let them bring you down!!

 

[tr]

One of my interviewers (female, in her late 60s) actually asked me WHEN i'm planning on having a family and basically tried to color the picture that there are more negs. to being a female phys-scientist than positives. I know in reality there ARE more hurdles for women, but geez, talk about inappropriate q's and comments for a motivated and (as competitive-as-males) female applicant. I mean, would she ask the same questions of a male applicant?

I wasn't asked this question during interviews myself, but some other women in my program were. At the time I also thought it was inappropriate, but I no longer do.

This interviewer may just have been trying to get you to think about something that many 22-year-old women don't pause to consider. I bet she's speaking from personal experience. There are reasons why MD-PhDs are overwhelmingly male while both MDs and PhDs hover at 50-50.

The fact is that, as you say, women face problems that men don't have to deal with. It's useful to think about this a bit, even if ultimately it doesn't change your decisions. Of course the interviewer wouldn't have asked a male applicant this question, because he won't face the choices that you and I and other women who have chosen this path will have to make.

 

[beary]

When I was interviewing for MSTPs (7 years ago now - yikes!) I had a male interviewer ask me if I had a boyfriend, was planning on having kids, and came flat out and said "there is no place for women in science." Needless to say I did not attend this program. (Random aside - why do programs fly somebody out, put them up in a hotel, etc., and then discourage them from coming there?) 😕

On the positive side, I haven't noticed anything more difficult or any snide comments about being a female MSTP student in my program (Iowa). My class actually is predominantly women. I agree that we definitely need to think about the "ticking clock", but I think it definitely can be done.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Being an XY and not an XX, I too haven't heard of any stories at my school where male faculty or male MSTP fellows made snide comments towards women physician-scientists or women who were on their way to becoming physician-scientists. If there is one thing that IS talked about is that not enough women apply to MD/PhD programs. Was when I applied and still is (albeit improving though). Many programs, ours included, strive for gender balance within the program (translation: we would kill to have women join our program). However, I think that at our program this may be difficult because the applicants are predominantly male. I've been to lunch with several groups of applicants within the past 2 years and all the applicants, except one, were male.

There was an article in Nature(?) which addresses the problem of not enough women pursuing the physician-scientist track. It deliniates some of the pertinent issues very well.

 

[QofQuimica]

This has never come up for me in an interview for grad school, med school, or MSTP. My mentor (I'm finishing my PhD now and preparing to apply to med school this summer) has been extremely supportive of my desire to go on and earn the MD, as have my labmates (all male except for one). But I'm not planning to have a family anyway, and I'm old enough now that they'd probably believe me. 😉 There is always a minute possibility that I might change my mind, say, ten years from now, when I'd be in my 40s and probably too old to have children of my own, but if that should happen, what is to stop me from adopting?

Overall I do think that the question is not appropriate and should not be asked, but if it does get asked, the best thing to do is to handle it with grace, whatever you choose to respond. If the interviewer is concerned that you won't be able to "hack" their program because you want to have a family, maybe it is best to know that up front when you're considering whether to go there.

 

[Treg]

I have been asked these types of questions for some of my MD interviews, even as I am finishing my PhD in <5 years during which time I have had a husband and a baby. Remember though that your application will be reviewed by a panel after interview, and the majority will not hold these sexist views. Still, it is hard not to roll your eyes when they go there with the "what about a family?" crap.


🙂 Treg

 

[GlycoNE1]

Amen to QQuimica and Treg! These questions/messages are form of discrimination that shouldn't be judged for assessment. Yes, it is prudent to be cognizant of these unique issues that women physician-scientists face before beginning such a daunting program. However, people in such positions (PIs and interviewers at other schools) should be more supportive and encouraging to female applicants than giving them the trite message that it's hard, that's that, and so you may wanna jump ship. This negative attitude would only perpetuate the disappointing proportion of females in physician-scientist training programs, as Nancy Andrews points out in Nature Medicine, May 2002. For myself I've been fortunately lucky. My advisors (mostly male) have really been supportive of my decision without sugar-coating the reality of women in science. But there are still conservative admission comm. members out there who don't wanna waste time/money/resources on female applicants who plan on "popping babies" during their medical training, and will accept someone else who says that medicine is their ONLY calling in life. I've seen this and they aren't discreet about asking. Something to think about...
FYI, some institutions like Northwestern have special colloquiums for women in their MSTP. I know of other schools (Harvard?) that are actively supportive and allow their female students in the program to take time off during "family matters." Such accomodations for women are indicative of change for the better and I think other programs should follow their examples..

 

[tr]

Amen to QQuimica and Treg! These questions/messages are form of discrimination that shouldn't be used for assessment.

Look, if the adcoms are letting these issues affect their decisions, that's wack. But as AndyMilonakis points out, that really doesn't seem to be happening. If anything, being female may put you at an advantage for admission. (During my interviews, I had at least one program director tell me flat out that he purposely strove for gender balance - i.e., admitted women in greater numbers than their representation in the applicant pool would predict.)

But that's different from bringing it up in an interview so that the applicant can be aware of it. I think that's a favor to the applicant.

Yes, it is prudent to be cognizant of these unique issues that women physician-scientists face before beginning such a daunting program.

Then we agree. And I should note that it's not about being female per se; it's about being female and having a family. Someone like QofQuimica isn't going to face this sort of issue. But the fact remains that, society being the way it is, women generally carry more than half of the child-care burden. A househusband is a lot harder to find than a housewife.

This is the kind of thing that needs to change; and I think it is changing, slowly. Certainly men in my peer group seem much more interested in 'work-family balance' than men my parents' age. And I think that as women enter demanding professions in greater numbers and rise above the radar, the professional world is changing to accommodate them. But we're not there yet, and women my age have to make our life choices now, not in twenty or fifty years. There's no point in behaving as if the world were ideal when it isn't; it's like banging one's head against a brick wall.

 

[GlycoNE1]

Look, if the adcoms are letting these issues affect their decisions, that's wack. But as AndyMilonakis points out, that really doesn't seem to be happening. If anything, being female may put you at an advantage for admission. (During my interviews, I had at least one program director tell me flat out that he purposely strove for gender balance - i.e., admitted women in greater numbers than their representation in the applicant pool would predict.)

But that's different from bringing it up in an interview so that the applicant can be aware of it. I think that's a favor to the applicant.

I agree. Encouragement will do much good in letting bright women shine in their element when they choose this career path. I mean, kudos to them for entering a male-dominant field. It's NOT a favor, though, to dissuade them and to preface their career goals with such negativity. Unfortunately, it does happen that women receive very little encouragement to become phys-scientists, though. I've seen it, witnessed it (happened to me, the purpose for my thread), and I've read about it.. (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nm/journal/v8/n5/full/nm0502-439.html).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Unfortunately, it does happen that women receive very little encouragement to become phys-scientists, though.

I think this is quite tragic. There are certainly many capable, talented, and promising physician-scientists to be out there. However, given the issues delineated above, it is not surprising if females tend to be dissuaded more than males. In any case, if talented people who could get the job done well are dissuaded from pursuing this career track, this is very unfortunate in principle and science will suffer from this.

 

[abeanatrice]

The vast majority of my interviews are still to come this semester, but I really hope I don't get that question. I am fortunate that I am young (still 20) and that women are having children safely at older ages now, but of course it's something I think about. However, it isn't something that I need an ADCOM to bring up as if it might dissuade me from pursuing this career path. I suppose it could be addressed not as a sexist thing, but instead just a question to make sure you have your head on straight and to ensure that you don't have some crazy idealistic view of getting out in 6 years so that you can start your family, but I still think it's rather inappropriate.

Interestingly enough, the only people who have seemed really concerned about my ticking clock are my boyfriend's parents...I guess they are concerned that he's 26, about to become a faculty member somewhere and DAMMIT, they want grandchildren to take care of as soon as possible. Freaks me out...

Anyway, I thought that Nature article was really interesting when I read it a while back. I'm always thankful that I grew up with a mother who was a civil engineer and consistently pushed me to not be afraid of pursuing a male-dominated career. I can't imagine what it must've been like studying civil engineering as a female back in the 70's...especially in the south. I definitely count my blessings that things are more equal now.

 

[GlycoNE1]

The vast majority of my interviews are still to come this semester, but I really hope I don't get that question. I am fortunate that I am young (still 20) and that women are having children safely at older ages now, but of course it's something I think about. However, it isn't something that I need an ADCOM to bring up as if it might dissuade me from pursuing this career path. I suppose it could be addressed not as a sexist thing, but instead just a question to make sure you have your head on straight and to ensure that you don't have some crazy idealistic view of getting out in 6 years so that you can start your family, but I still think it's rather inappropriate.

Goodluck to you! If you do get such a question, be diplomatic about it. I was honest, and I said I subscribed to the movement of supporting women in science by recognizing their unique hurdles. Hopefully, not a sexist thing, as you said, and they're asking these personal questions in good faith to get to know you better.

 

[uproarhz]

I was never asked this question exactly. At the couple of schools that the issues has come up at all, it was to tell me that if I were to wish to have kids during the program they could offer plenty of advice and support from other students or faculty who have gone throught the same thing. So I guess the only word I have heard was one of support. On a recent interview I even met an old friend of mine who is now an MSTP student (MS I) and she started med school being pregnant and the school was amazingly supportive of that.
So I guess you will see all sorts of views out there. Again I remind you that even if one faculty provides a sexist view that doesn't necessarily reflect on the school as a whole. I would mention it to some of the more prominent figures in the program (ie directors, advisors, or administrators) to see if they share the same views or not. A more diplomatic way of asking this I guess would be to ask if there are any students who have completed the program successfully while having children and ask to speak with them.

Anyway, GlycoNE1 I started a similar thread on women in MSTPs a little while ago, you can search for it. We didn't discuss too many issues there but we did kind of talk about the relative proportions of women applying to the program and you can find other females who are currently applying and ask them about their experience during this whole process.

Good Luck to all!

 

[mudphudwannabe]

I wonder...are men not asked about their family plans on interviews, etc, because it's assumed having a family won't significantly affect their careers? Or are they asked but just don't pay much attention to the question because they aren't sensitive to it? I'm inclined to think they aren't asked, but I'm not sure. This would possibly resolve whether the questions are just an effort to get to know you, or if they're actually looking for a particular answer. Someone should study this. 🙂

I think balancing school/work with your personal life can be difficult for any career oriented person, so it's definitely a legitimate question and should be considered by anyone going into medicine (not just women, obviously). One of my female professors has a stay-at-home husband -- that's my ideal goal, but I think they're kind of hard to come by. My great aunts and uncles recently talked for like 10 minutes after they found out I was going into an MD/PhD program about what a shame it is that women aren't staying home with their children anymore...I guess I can allow that they are old and set in their ways, but even with other people it gets to be a little much sometimes. But, I really am committed to this and I don't think I would be truly happy if I didn't do the MD/PhD. So, if I can make it through the admissions process, I think I can make it work. You know, if I never get married, at least I'll have my career. 😍 Haha.

 

[scrappysurfer]

To deflect questions on the fam issue I've used these examples from my own life:
1) my mother had me right before med school and my sisters during. she still got an optho residency
2) stay at home husbands are on the rise (personally I'd love to have one) and gender roles are changing fast. despite his traditional family, my father had a private law practice that he essentially maintained from our house.
3) of my 10 aunts and uncles, the one with the three coolest, best adjusted kids is an MD/PhD and a department chair. her husband is clinical faculty
4) one of my fav research residents did a 2year research residency after med school and had her first son. She got her first choice residency who told her that she could take 2 years research to have another kid and get some letters out of the deal. She now has a happy househusband.

As far as I'm concerned, the glass ceiling is broken. It can be done. I am happy to hear other women who hear such a powerful call to academic medicine. Good luck gals.

 

[mdphd2b]

Hi,

I'm a 5th year MSTP sista at Pitt. I started the program when I was 28yo. Luckily I didn't get any messed up "questions" during my MSTP interview days. I did have one Vanderbilt faculty interviewer comment that the MSTP is a long hard process, since his wife was an MD/PhD back in the days of the NIH payback agreement, and he thought we still had to do that. I'm not sure if he meant to sound concerned or discouraging, but once I informed him that we no longer had a payback obligation, he warmed up a bit.

In contrast, a number of our MS4's have had the age question pop up during residency interviews, as well as direct questions about what there spouse does and when they plan to have kids. I thought these were considered "illegal questions", but if one is in the middle of an interview, one needs to think of some constructive answers.

 

[lynnier79]

As a 25 year-old just applying for MSTP now, I have actually purposefully brought up the subject of family (i have a sig other, but no kids yet) at a number of interviews.

Seems crazy that these programs should care-- but in some ways we have to realize that one of the things that they are evaluating of us, the applicants, is whether or not they think that we are actually going to stick it out in the whole program. I think they ask these seemingly inappropriate and pushy questions in an attempt to ascertain if we are going to leave the program half way through when we discover how much we love staying home with our kids or something. Because they are indeed investing in us -- both with time and with money....

but I have also read somewhere that anyone has a right to refuse to answer questions about family issues at an interview -- female or male. so thats always an option.

just my 2 cents.

lynnie

 

[LuckyBear]

Hi gals,
I was asked "the question" when I interviewed at U of MN - it was, specifically, "don't you ever want to have a family?" I replied that I didn't believe that an MD-PhD and a family were mutually exclusive. I also didn't go there.
The U of IL MSP program was much more supportive. One gal in the program gave birth to twins with much celebration my first year. When I interviewed here, I was assured, as a "selling point" for the program, that no one had graduated an "old maid": they may have had same-sex partners, but they all had partners. 😍
I also believe that graduate education in general and medical education especially needs to make it easier for women to start their families while in school because we shouldn't be forcing women to wait until they're older and risks of complications are higher.
I am 5 years into the program with about 3 to go. I'm getting married this summer (to another MD-PhD student) and I would like to have my children before I'm 35. Grad student stipend is not one that makes it easy to raise children on, so I'm planning on being a pregnant resident - and waiting until 2nd year of residency since first year is notoriously stressful.
That's my 2 cents.
We just have to be agents of change, ladies...

 

[1Path]

Personally, the older I get (I'm 38) the less I dwell on issues like discrimination based on gender, race, ect and the reason is simple. I'll have to bust my arse no matter what to get earn the MD/PhD and I'm finding that pondering things I have NO control over (like people's antiquated attitudes) tends to be a HUGE waste of time.

I'm NOT necessarily saying that we should simply turn the other cheek when disparaging comments are made but I've learned over MANY years that the best way to fight ignorance is simply to be excellent. Furthermore, I know what my family repsonsibilities are and I will not hesitate for one minute to tend to them, with VERY few exceptions.

The bottom line is that I think most any program will accommmodate personal emergencies like taking a leave of absence without regard for gender because people do this for all kinds of reasons both personal and professional. Really, what's the difference between the guy who takes a year off from school for "mental reasons" or to get an MPH and the woman who does it to have a child IF they both plan to come back and finish school? If anything we as women have to MAKE these schools realize by example, that we intend to have lives OUTSIDE of medical/graduate education.

FYI, LuckyBear I LOVED your response to the interview question!!! 👍

 

[GlycoNE1]

I think this bit of news is relevant to this thread.. Looks like the proverbial glass ceiling is NOT quite broken in some places... You gals are very correct in that programs need to be more supportive of women in science and their lifestyles.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/19/harvard_womens_group_rips_summers/

 

[QofQuimica]

There's a thread about this in the pre-allopathic forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=173515

It's been kind of interesting to follow it, because there are certainly plenty of girl geeks on this site posting their experiences, myself included, and I am happy to see them all. That being said, I agree with 1path: if some people want to pass their time pontificating about innate differences in capabilities between the sexes, that's their business. In the meantime, I have a dissertation to write and my medical school applications to fill out.

 

[tr]

Somewhat related. Do you think your romantic life has been negatively impacted because guys are intimidated by your MD-PhD status?

Speaking for myself only, no. The men in my life have always been very intelligent, secure individuals who are high achievers in their own rights, and would be unlikely to be intimidated by anyone else's graduate program.
So I don't think it's affected me chiefly because I wouldn't want to date anyone who was insecure enough to be intimidated by this sort of thing.

A few of the guys in my program have said, only half in jest, that we (the women) are educating ourselves out of the dating pool, that our only options for partners are other MD-PhDs. Which is ridiculous, not least because it posits that the MD-PhD is at the top of some mythical hierarchy of graduate programs. Which, as I said, is ridiculous. People study what they like, and the smartest ones are not usually MD-PhDs (I think they're more often to be found in abstract fields like mathematics, philosophy, and theoretical physics). But anyway, this shows that there are some men out there who subscribe to this intimidation theory.

But I really don't think that there are a lot of (educated) men out there who truly find highly educated women 'intimidating.' Most of them mainly seem to want women to be cute and not-bitchy, with not-*****ic as a plus. I think most men care about women's educational/intellectual attainments a lot less than most educated women think they do.

 

[BandGeek]

In my program, all the women in tyears 1 and 2 are taken and it is the men who are left going "where am I going to find someone?" In fact, one of my male collegues has expressed on many ocassions that he would LOVE to be a stay at home father (and he is a mudpud!) Frankly, from the day I met my partner I said this is who and am and what I going to do, WITH or WITHOUT their support. My willingness to dedicate myself to my goals is what made me more attractive to him, because he knew that when I wanted to be with him, I used the same steadfastness. I won't deny there are drawbacks (lack of time, stress, concerns about ever having a family) to relationships in the mudpud life, but you can't let those fears dictate your ambitions. My partner and I deal with every bump in the road one day at a time.

 

[QofQuimica]

Somewhat related. Do you think your romantic life has been negatively impacted because guys are intimidated by your MD-PhD status?

No. If anything, it's the opposite. I've had four guys wanting to marry me before I reached the age of 30, and I've been engaged twice.

 

[1Path]

No. If anything, it's the opposite. I've had four guys wanting to marry me before I reached the age of 30, and I've been engaged twice.

I KNOW what you mean. I used to think the movie "Runaway Bride" was about me!

Thankfully, there are men out there that find very smart women HIGHLY desirable!!! 👍

 

[PHD_2007]

Hey Guys,
I have been experiencing the same thing. I think that guys are more attracted to my accomplishments like being in grad school and applying to med school than to me as a person. I don't like it, although it was cute at first it is becoming a real turn off. Now when I meet guys I am reluctant to tell them my career goals and aspirations. (I know I shouldn't feel that way.) Can anyone offer me some advice? 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey Guys,
I have been experiencing the same thing. I think that guys are more attracted to my accomplishments like being in grad school and applying to med school than to me as a person. I don't like it, although it was cute at first it is becoming a real turn off. Now when I meet guys I am reluctant to tell them my career goals and aspirations. (I know I shouldn't feel that way.) Can anyone offer me some advice? 🙂

My serious suggestion is that you seek out guys who are also accomplished academically, not necessarily having PhDs, but with professional or graduate degrees of some type. They will still appreciate your accomplishment of earning your PhD, but they will also have some accomplishments of their own to be proud of as well. If both partners have impressive accomplishments and high aspirations, hopefully that will take some of the pressure off of you. But that does raise the risk that your paths will cross and then move off in different directions.

My somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion: don't date other grad students: date an assistant professor instead. There are tons of single ones in physics, chemistry, computer science, and engineering who would love to meet a girl that doesn't run away screaming at the sight of an equation. 😍