Any "old timers" struggling to understand the meaning of new MCATs scores?

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It's the saddest thing ever! I feel like with the exception of top 10 or even top 20 where they have a surplus of applicants with both high gpa and high mcat, that low GPA students who've demonstrated a strong trend and aced the MCAT should be on equal footing with the typical applicant that tends to be accepted at the majority of schools. I know many schools do treat applicants like this but definitely not all.

As a low GPA/High MCAT applicant, life was rough and I needed two app cycles to get into a top 10 while applying broadly. The final result was not worth the BS of two application cycles. At one point, I would have loved to be the average 3.7/30 type of guy. I would love GPA blind admissions.
 
Unexplained dissonance makes everyone uneasy.

And what makes things trickier is the factors that will dictate the direction of the discordant applicant are often very hard to gague/judge in a WAMC thread or MDapplicants profile.

Can dissonance ever really be "explained though"? It seems really easy to venture into the line of excuse making trying to do such a thing. Is the solution simply always have a period of sustained high level performance since the poor showing and hope somebody buys the newer version of you is what will show up in medical school?

It's the saddest thing ever! I feel like with the exception of top 10 or even top 20 where they have a surplus of applicants with both high gpa and high mcat, that low GPA students who've demonstrated a strong trend and aced the MCAT should be on equal footing with the typical applicant that tends to be accepted at the majority of schools. I know many schools do treat applicants like this but definitely not all.

The higher ranked the school is often the more risk averse they are. When you have a stack of applications that is 5X bigger than what you can interview full of people who have been two standard deviations above their competition in everything theyve done in their entire life, any blemishes get noticed regardless of when they are from. The schools that can afford to be the pickiest often are. See enough 3.9/38 applicants and even a 3.6/38 or 4.0/34 can make you a bit at unease.

Having said that there are certain higher end schools that repeatedly stand out to some extent in their willingness to give consideration to these type of applicants more so than others.
 
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While being in the first batch of new MCAT takers was a struggle, I can't imagine how confusing it would be to a new SDN member trying to figure out what MCAT they should shoot for or what their score means seeing as there's still a decent level of confusion regarding the topic.
 
While being in the first batch of new MCAT takers was a struggle, I can't imagine how confusing it would be to a new SDN member trying to figure out what MCAT they should shoot for or what their score means seeing as there's still a decent level of confusion regarding the topic.

Reading the stickies will help a lot 😉
 
Can dissonance ever really be "explained though"? It seems really easy to venture into the line of excuse making trying to do such a thing. Is the solution simply always have a period of sustained high level performance since the poor showing
The actual reasons for significant (high MCAT) dissonance are not the things anyone wants to discuss in their application.
 
The actual reasons for significant (high MCAT) dissonance are not the things anyone wants to discuss in their application, though.

Just curious, what is defined as significant dissonance between GPA and MCAT? Like a 3.5 + 40?
 
The actual reasons for significant (high MCAT) dissonance are not the things anyone wants to discuss in their application.

Ultimately it's just a very tricky situation for an applicant in terms of potentially trying to discuss dissonance in an application.

The reasons for that dissonance often dont reflect favorably on applicant which is why so many dont mention it. And if one chooses to discuss it the risks are real if you try to as well in terms a) handling it properly and delicately b) not coming across as an excuse maker or someone not taking responsibility for their own actions.

And in many situations if there is a clear reason for the dissonance, often times in situations like these even those reasons can be tricky to discuss. Things like undiagnosesd learning disabilities that post diagnosis lead to a complete turnaround in academic performance or prevoius mental health disorders that when treated lead to significant improvement are types of things that are common reasons explaining the dissonance. Even trickier to discuss might be personal issues such as significant family issues that once resolved led to marked improvement. But mentioning these issues can often bring its own set of red flags and it can be difficult to convey that you are truly under control of these issues to an ADCOM and be convincing doing so even if your performance has improved markedly since treatment.
 
Ultimately it's just a very tricky situation for an applicant in terms of potentially trying to discuss dissonance in an application.

The reasons for that dissonance often dont reflect favorably on applicant which is why so many dont mention it. And if one chooses to discuss it the risks are real if you try to as well in terms a) handling it properly and delicately b) not coming across as an excuse maker or someone not taking responsibility for their own actions.

And in many situations if there is a clear reason for the dissonance, often times in situations like these even those reasons can be tricky to discuss. Things like undiagnosesd learning disabilities that post diagnosis lead to a complete turnaround in academic performance or prevoius mental health disorders that when treated lead to significant improvement are types of things that are common reasons explaining the dissonance. Even trickier to discuss might be personal issues such as significant family issues that once resolved led to marked improvement. But mentioning these issues can often bring its own set of red flags and it can be difficult to convey that you are truly under control of these issues to an ADCOM and be convincing doing so even if your performance has improved markedly since treatment.
You've hit on many of them. All difficult.
And the ones you didn't mention are even higher on the differential.
 
Almost everybody has a good gpa. They don't have the same school or major or years in college, though.
I don't think I've ever gotten your position on this - do you view the same GPA differently between undergrads? Is the 3.7 bio major from Berkeley on equal footing with the same from Riverside?
 
I don't think I've ever gotten your position on this - do you view the same GPA differently between undergrads? Is the 3.7 bio major from Berkeley on equal footing with the same from Riverside?
Not enough difference to cause any discussion. They are both fine.
We don't compare them this way...
 
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You've hit on many of them. All difficult
And the ones you didn't mention are even higher on the differential.

Which ones would be even higher?

Here a few more I might guess. These are probably rarer but I would have even less clue of how to ever address them in an application
Substance abuse
Abuse from family and/or very dangerous and unstable family situations(due to things perhaps such as bad divorces)
Spousal/relationship problems that turn either violent or lead to complete chaos
Overly aggressive personalities/lifestyles/backgrounds that often lead to haphazard decisions with significant consequences
 
I don't think I've ever gotten your position on this - do you view the same GPA differently between undergrads? Is the 3.7 bio major from Berkeley on equal footing with the same from Riverside?

I doubt you'll get a straight answer on that. The institution must be taken into account within the gestalt of the overall level of achievement. People who try to boil it down to an "Ivy GPA boost" or whatever are thinking small.
 
Which ones would be even higher?

Here a few more I might guess. These are probably rarer but I would have even less clue of how to ever address them in an application
Substance abuse
Abuse from family and/or very dangerous and unstable family situations(due to things perhaps such as bad divorces)
Spousal/relationship problems that turn either violent or lead to complete chaos
Overly aggressive personalities/lifestyles/backgrounds that often lead to haphazard decisions with significant consequences
Now you've covered most of them.
Substance abuse is common.
 
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Now you've covered most of them.

You mentioned earlier nobody with the 3.1/39 dissonance wants to talk about hte reasons behind the dissonance in their application. The big question then ultimately I would ask is have you seen examples where people have choosen to address the issues behind such a dissonance in their application and where their response was looked upon favorably by evaluators(ie it was to their benefit to have made a point to address it in their application as opposed to just not making any mention of reasons behind the dissonance at all)?

Alot of this just strikes me as a lose lose situation which is why Im asking; dont mention it and evaluators might assume the worst. Mention it and you are drawing negative attention to yourself in a way that might further cause fears/scare off an evaluator.
 
You mentioned earlier nobody with the 3.1/39 dissonance wants to talk about hte reasons behind the dissonance in their application. The big question then ultimately I would ask is have you seen examples where people have choosen to address the issues behind such a dissonance in their application and where their response was looked upon favorably by evaluators(ie it was to their benefit to have made a point to address it in their application)?

Alot of this just strikes me as a lose lose situation which is why Im asking; dont mention it and evaluators might assume the worst. Mention it and you are drawing negative attention to yourself in a way that might further cause fears/scare off an evaluator. It's just a tough situation.
Their best chance is an explanation that gives evidence that they have been treated successfully and risk of recurrence is addressed. This is the real reason that sustained success is emphasized before an application.
 
Which ones would be even higher?

Here a few more I might guess. These are probably rarer but I would have even less clue of how to ever address them in an application
Substance abuse
Abuse from family and/or very dangerous and unstable family situations(due to things perhaps such as bad divorces)
Spousal/relationship problems that turn either violent or lead to complete chaos
Overly aggressive personalities/lifestyles/backgrounds that often lead to haphazard decisions with significant consequences

Add: personal illness.

I don't mean you broke your arm while skating. I mean something which took years to diagnose and 4 operations and weeks of time spent in a hospital bed.

That might be enough to take a huge bite out of your GPA, though your MCAT might be above the 99th %ile.
 
How are adcoms viewing the Psych section since you are comparing old and new MCAT scores among the current applicants? Do you see the score making a difference when everyone is converted to the same test?
 
How are adcoms viewing the Psych section since you are comparing old and new MCAT scores among the current applicants? Do you see the score making a difference when everyone is converted to the same test?

Gyngyn has mentioned before that he feels the content of the section is the most, of the four sections, resembling problems that arise in clinical practice. I'll let him explain how that affects interpretation but if I had to guess the answer will always be Composite >>>>>> any single section. At the end of the day, there will never be a single thing that "makes" an application (there are a myriad single things that can break you, such as IAs or extremely low academic scores).

The Stanford admissions dean did a talk at a Uc undergrad about what medical schools look for in admissions (google it, Gabriel Garcia is his name) and in it he says something to the effect of "the first thing we consider is academic readiness. This is a switch, not a continuum." In other words, a 39 is not "more ready" than a 37. However, from his words it was clear the bar was already very high for Stanford, "A 3.9 is not more prepared than a 3.8, they are both academically prepared." I think, even if unintentional, his choice to compare a 3.9 to a 3.8 rather than a 3.8 to 3.7 is telling.

Of course, if Stanford were really serious in this endeavor they would do away with GPA and MCAT to begin with and instead just institute specific cutoffs which they feel signify academic preparedness, perhaps giving a second look to applicants who specify they are post-baccs or nontrads since their numbers can be a bit misleading when looked at all at once. Stanford, like all other schools, is still a slave to Step exams and the race to have the most impressive and prestigious roster of alumni possible.

Tangentially, I had a very interesting conversation with a Stanford MD student who said that only about 60% of the graduating class goes on to residency and the rest often end up doing something else in medicine that isn't clinical practice or leaving for startups, consulting, etc. I asked whether he believed that every time an MD student didn't go on to residency the medical admissions committee had essentially failed in their presumed mission of choosing physicians. He told me, convincingly, that at Stanford students often discovered many ways to contribute to medicine, science or patient care without actually going to residency so people diversified and he felt this was a positive thing for the school and it's students.

In the current system everyone wins if by everyone you mean the applicants and the medical school. I feel like we could be doing more to actually choose the people we really believed would be the best physicians for the people who need them the most outside of having a handful of mission specific schools in certain areas.
 
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Gyngyn has mentioned before that he feels the content of the section is the most, of the four sections, resembling problems that arise in clinical practice. I'll let him explain how that affects interpretation but if I had to guess the answer will always be Composite >>>>>> any single section. At the end of the day, there will never be a single thing that "makes" an application (there are a myriad single things that can break you, such as IAs or extremely low academic scores).

The Stanford admissions dean did a talk at a Uc undergrad about what medical schools look for in admissions (google it, Gabriel Garcia is his name) and in it he says something to the effect of "the first thing we consider is academic readiness. This is a switch, not a continuum." In other words, a 39 is not "more ready" than a 37. However, from his words it was clear the bar was already very high for Stanford, "A 3.9 is not more prepared than a 3.8, they are both academically prepared." I think, even if unintentional, his choice to compare a 3.9 to a 3.8 rather than a 3.8 to 3.7 is telling.

Of course, if Stanford were really serious in this endeavor they would do away with GPA and MCAT to begin with and instead just institute specific cutoffs which they feel signify academic preparedness, perhaps giving a second look to applicants who specify they are post-baccs or nontrads since their numbers can be a bit misleading when looked at all at once. Stanford, like all other schools, is still a slave to Step exams and the race to have the most impressive and prestigious roster of alumni possible.

Tangentially, I had a very interesting conversation with a Stanford MD student who said that only about 60% of the graduating class goes on to residency and the rest often end up doing something else in medicine that isn't clinical practice or leaving for startups, consulting, etc. I asked whether he believed that every time an MD student didn't go on to residency the medical admissions committee had essentially failed in their presumed mission of choosing physicians. He told me, convincingly, that at Stanford students often discovered many ways to contribute to medicine, science or patient care without actually going to residency so people diversified and he felt this was a positive thing for the school and it's students.

In the current system everyone wins if by everyone you mean the applicants and the medical school. I feel like we could be doing more to actually choose the people we really believed would be the best physicians for the people who need them the most outside of having a handful of mission specific schools in certain areas.
Dr. Garcia has been replaced.
 
How are adcoms viewing the Psych section since you are comparing old and new MCAT scores among the current applicants? Do you see the score making a difference when everyone is converted to the same test?
Composite is most important. Everyone has their own pet subscore, though.
 
I don't even know why they bother to make up silly scales that don't correspond to anything and make no sense
Just report everything as a percentile

This is an interesting suggestion. But...

Composite is most important. Everyone has their own pet subscore, though.

... if composite score is the most important, do you think getting rid of the subsection scores and reporting the composite as a percentile is a good idea? I'm probably wrong but i was getting the notion that in medical schools and beyond, board scores were commonly reported in overall percentiles (or at least overall scores without the subsections).
 
There are schools that believe in reinvention and a strategically thought out list can increases one's chances.

It's the saddest thing ever! I feel like with the exception of top 10 or even top 20 where they have a surplus of applicants with both high gpa and high mcat, that low GPA students who've demonstrated a strong trend and aced the MCAT should be on equal footing with the typical applicant that tends to be accepted at the majority of schools. I know many schools do treat applicants like this but definitely not all.


Indeed. Many secondaries will have prompts like "Is there anything you want to tell us?" or "Please explain poor grades etc".

Their best chance is an explanation that gives evidence that they have been treated successfully and risk of recurrence is addressed. This is the real reason that sustained success is emphasized before an application.
 
This is an interesting suggestion. But...



... if composite score is the most important, do you think getting rid of the subsection scores and reporting the composite as a percentile is a good idea? I'm probably wrong but i was getting the notion that in medical schools and beyond, board scores were commonly reported in overall percentiles (or at least overall scores without the subsections).

What's wrong with reporting subsections as percentiles? My score report gave both percentiles and number score for subsections as well as composite.
 
What's wrong with reporting subsections as percentiles? My score report gave both percentiles and number score for subsections as well as composite.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just a little lost why there are subsections begin with when apparently there are none in future exams in medicine. And subsection percentiles can be slightly complex because they aren't additive (not sure whether a simple average works as well)
 
There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just a little lost why there are subsections begin with when apparently there are none in future exams in medicine. And subsection percentiles can be slightly complex because they aren't additive (not sure whether a simple average works as well)

There are a ton of subsections on step scores actually. Third year exams are pretty much subsection exams with national percentiles given
 
There are a ton of subsections on step scores actually. Third year exams are pretty much subsection exams with national percentiles given

Eh. Not really. The questions can be broken down by topic, but if you get a 230 on the exam and totally ate it on a particular topic it doesn't actually matter.

For example, my significant other did pretty well on her step 1, but she only got 30% on the 'foundations of science' section because she was only asked a very small number of questions and didn't get a couple right.
 
Eh. Not really. The questions can be broken down by topic, but if you get a 230 on the exam and totally ate it on a particular topic it doesn't actually matter.

For example, my significant other did pretty well on her step 1, but she only got 30% on the 'foundations of science' section because she was only asked a very small number of questions and didn't get a couple right.

Yes it does because if you did better on that section you would have gotten higher than a 230. And how do you know which questions were "foundations of science"? I can't remember a single question that I answered from any of the exams I've taken
 
Yes it does because if you did better on that section you would have gotten higher than a 230. And how do you know which questions were "foundations of science"? I can't remember a single question that I answered from any of the exams I've taken

Wow! If you get more questions right on the exam you get a higher score?!

...



The point is that residency programs and such do not actually look at subscores, they just look at your score. Med schools do actually look at the subscore. Also, on the USMLE you do not take an immuno section, a heme section, a neuro section, etc. You just answer questions serially.
 
Wow! If you get more questions right on the exam you get a higher score?!

...



The point is that residency programs and such do not actually look at subscores, they just look at your score. Med schools do actually look at the subscore. Also, on the USMLE you do not take an immuno section, a heme section, a neuro section, etc. You just answer questions serially.

They see your shelf exam scores and see the percentiles. Not sure why you're so obsessed with this though especially since you haven't even taken any of them
 
The point is that no one seems to care about subsection scores on Step 1, while they probably do (at least a little) on the MCAT.


I think 1 main reason they have 4 separate sections on the MCAT is to make it easier to understand for the test takers.

For example, scoring a 30 (old system) is good. But when you look and see that it is broken down 12/6/12, it becomes obvious which subject you need to study!
 
They see your shelf exam scores and see the percentiles. Not sure why you're so obsessed with this though especially since you haven't even taken any of them

And again, the shelf exams do not have subsections. It's not like you take a surgery shelf broken into oncology, minimally invasive, cosmetic, and transplant (etc) and then get 4+ scores reported. You just take 1 surgical shelf exam and get 1 score. If you bomb every question about cancer but get all of the others correct, you still get a good score. (And, yes, if you got those questions right, you would get a better score)
 
And again, the shelf exams do not have subsections. It's not like you take a surgery shelf broken into oncology, minimally invasive, cosmetic, and transplant (etc) and then get 4+ scores reported. You just take 1 surgical shelf exam and get 1 score. If you bomb every question about cancer but get all of the others correct, you still get a good score. (And, yes, if you got those questions right, you would get a better score)

They dont do it like that because nobody cares about a score breakdown on such minute details and the sample size is too small for each individual section you're proposing like minimal invasive cancer for a sugery shelf to make any judgments.

The MCAT doesnt do what you are describing either. It gives a breakdown in general subjects. If they did what you are describing your physical sciences section would have a breakdown such as "% of correct on questions regarding SN2" "% of questions correct on concave mirrors" etc. Nobody would care about that information, nor would it be meaningful since the sample size is so small and everybody gets different questions.
 
True. Point is, it is not inaccurate to state the USMLE Steps lack sub-sections.
 
The actual reasons for significant (high MCAT) dissonance are not the things anyone wants to discuss in their application.

I'm talking 3.3 and below/38 and above.

I have to admit, I wasn't that far off from those numbers and not a single person interviewing me brought it up. I took this to mean that I wasn't interviewing where I was interviewing because of my scores, but because of everything else in my application. But, I know you mean...
 
I have to admit, I wasn't that far off from those numbers and not a single person interviewing me brought it up. I took this to mean that I wasn't interviewing where I was interviewing because of my scores, but because of everything else in my application. But, I know you mean...

Didnt you also have like a 3.8 sGPA despite the lower cGPA? That certainly changes things to some extent.
 
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The point is that no one seems to care about subsection scores on Step 1, while they probably do (at least a little) on the MCAT.

I'm getting lost in the discussion here. So the boards have subsection scores but no one cares about them?

It's all part of the overall percentile scheme in shaping the MCAT. I was thinking it makes since for the overall MCAT score to be reported as a percentile, but i'm not sure as to how having subsection scores in terms of percentiles would help.
 
I understand they give you some sort of broad score report that gives you an idea of how you did in various topic areas like behavioral science, pharmacology, cardiovascular, etc. Google "Step 1 score report."
 
I'm getting lost in the discussion here. So the boards have subsection scores but no one cares about them?

It's all part of the overall percentile scheme in shaping the MCAT. I was thinking it makes since for the overall MCAT score to be reported as a percentile, but i'm not sure as to how having subsection scores in terms of percentiles would help.
All we see at the residency level is the total USMLE score (numerical scores for Steps 1 and 2 and P/F for CS).
 
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I understand they give you some sort of broad score report that gives you an idea of how you did in various topic areas like behavioral science, pharmacology, cardiovascular, etc. Google "Step 1 score report."
All we see at the residency level is the total USMLE score, numerical scores for Steps 1 and 2 and P/F for CS.

So what is the disadvantage in reporting MCAT scores only in terms of overall percentile? That way we can see that someone retaking an 80th percentile score is really making a bad choice without having to resort to difficult unbalanced scores scenarios etc.
 
So what is the disadvantage in reporting MCAT scores only in terms of overall percentile? That way we can see that someone retaking an 80th percentile score is really making a bad choice without having to resort to difficult unbalanced scores scenarios etc.
It wouldn't bother me much.
 
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