Any rads residents who came into med school only wanting rads?

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atomi said:
I'm at a crossroads. I'm about to start med school (at a well thought of school for what that's worth) and have come to the realization that rads is the only specialty I can see myself doing (I'm currently an engineer). I know everyone says minds change, but I've been doing nothing but studying this career path for the past three years. I think I would not like medicine at all, and I could not swallow the sacrifices required for surgery. From the surface, path or psych might be tolerable, but I honestly can't say I know enough about it given my lack of bio coursework. So, from where I stand, rads looks like the only field I can see myself going into and enjoying. I'm a work-to-live type of person, and this decision is very important and I need to know that it will be worth it (leaving an engineering career and pursuing rads). The salaries available to radiologists are 5 times more than I could ever hope to make as an engineer, which would allow me to accomplish life goals that otherwise would be unobtainable. The job security and flexibility look amazing in comparison, and I think the work would be an excellent fit for my personality. On top of this, I think it is one of the few specialties my fiancee would be semi-ok with (she would end it now if she thought I was going into ob/gyn or family med). So, I am excited about the prospects of rads, but discouraged about trudging through 4 years of med school and material I may or may not like to get there.

I am wondering how many people come into med school knowing that rads is pretty much the only thing they would want to do with their MD, and how they turn out. Is it a good idea to start med school with little interest in anything besides rads? Is rads really a good match for former engineers (I'm assuming everyone knows the engineering temperament)? And of course the burning question - what if you don't match the first time? Did that happen to anyone here or anyone you know.

Thanks for the advice!
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I think it would be a mistake to be that close-minded so early on, but I'm sure there are those who shared a similar viewpoint and made it through medical school successfully and fulfilled their goal.

I also don't think a previous career in engineering really predisposes you to radiology but again, just my opinion.
 
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you are focused , mm


i hope that now only the "salary" would bring you in
although it is obvious that the explosion in imaging has no shores,


you like physics ? yes
you like anatomy ? yes
pathology?

main differences between radiology and others : it gets harder , others get easier with years ,

little those who think with their own heads, and see with their own eyes 😀

peace.
​
 
If you do well enough to get into radiology (probably not a problem), if you decide that rads is all that you've made it to be, if you don't find something else along the way that you enjoy more, and if you can survive the 5 years of medical school and internship before you get to radiology, then everything can work out just fine for you. There are a lot of ifs in that sentence.

From what you've said, any deviation from that specific pathway will cause major trouble. If you don't get into radiology, then you'll be stuck doing something you don't want to do. If you change your mind and go into another specialty, then your fiancee (wife) will be unhappy. If you get to third year and hate it so much that you can't make it through internship, then you're stuck. You're basically flipping a coin 10 times and hoping it comes up heads everytime.

Your plan is high risk/high reward. If everything works out, then you'll probably have a long and rewarding career as a radiologist. Any deviation from that plan and you could be miserable. The chances are that at least one of the variables at play will change, so the smart money is on not taking the risk. As much as I love radiology, I can't advise someone to go into medicine if they can only see themselves in one particular specialty.
 
Agree with above. Medschool is a huge sacrifice, both financially and personally. It WILL likely strain your relation ship with your wife. Is it worth it? You like the "idea" of radiology, but do you know what radiology actually is? How did you even find out about radiology? There isn't a whole lot of information out there in general, let alone to base a career decision off of. You are taking on a lot of risk for something you are unsure of. If you know at least like the field of medicine, you will surely find something you like even if its not medicine. As much as I love radiology, I encourage med students to keep an open mind. But for you, I'd stick to your day job.
 
atomi said:
I'm at a crossroads. I'm about to start med school (at a well thought of school for what that's worth) and have come to the realization that rads is the only specialty I can see myself doing (I'm currently an engineer). I know everyone says minds change, but I've been doing nothing but studying this career path for the past three years. I think I would not like medicine at all, and I could not swallow the sacrifices required for surgery. From the surface, path or psych might be tolerable, but I honestly can't say I know enough about it given my lack of bio coursework. So, from where I stand, rads looks like the only field I can see myself going into and enjoying. I'm a work-to-live type of person, and this decision is very important and I need to know that it will be worth it (leaving an engineering career and pursuing rads). The salaries available to radiologists are 5 times more than I could ever hope to make as an engineer, which would allow me to accomplish life goals that otherwise would be unobtainable. The job security and flexibility look amazing in comparison, and I think the work would be an excellent fit for my personality. On top of this, I think it is one of the few specialties my fiancee would be semi-ok with (she would end it now if she thought I was going into ob/gyn or family med). So, I am excited about the prospects of rads, but discouraged about trudging through 4 years of med school and material I may or may not like to get there.

I am wondering how many people come into med school knowing that rads is pretty much the only thing they would want to do with their MD, and how they turn out. Is it a good idea to start med school with little interest in anything besides rads? Is rads really a good match for former engineers (I'm assuming everyone knows the engineering temperament)? And of course the burning question - what if you don't match the first time? Did that happen to anyone here or anyone you know.

Thanks for the advice!
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FWIW, I had similar feelings as you before applying and knew that I enjoyed life too much to work like a surgeon.... I read about a majority of the fields that I saw on SDN, especially radiology, rad onc, optho, anesthesiology, dermatology, pathology. I also had an interest in neurology and heme/onc. Excluding heme/onc, most of these have a decent lifestyle/pay and not all are uber competitive. I went into third year open minded and ultimately decided on radiology after rotating through early third year. I matched into rads and it all worked out.

So my advice to you would be to do some research and see if you could possibly be content in a few of the fields listed. You also have to be willing to go through all the schooling. You really shouldn't live with the mindset that once you get from point A to point B, you will begin life and be happy. I am sure you heard life is what happens while you are making other plans. To some extent this is true... 4 years of med school + internship + residency + fellowship (maybe 10 years) is a long time. It takes a special person to go through it and I don't think I could go through it if I hated school, taking exams, etc. The way I justify this time, is even if I didn't go into medicine, I would be working my way up in some company or building a business of my own which could take 10 years in itself. Somehow, I think each person has to find their own way with coming to terms with the long length of training and it is something you need to put some serious thought into before committing.
 
My 2 cents as a non-traditional, married med student who is also interested in rads:

I wouldn't do it if rads is the ONLY thing you can see yourself doing. As noted above, the path through med school is fraught with twists and turns. I've found that I enjoy Phys more than anatomy (at least right now) so I'm opening my mind to some other specialty possibilities.

Married life depends on your spouse. Mine has been incredible supportive and med schools hasn't been much of a strain on us at all. On me? Yes. It's hard. But on "us"? No.

So many things can change between now and when you would graduate med school anyways. Rads might not be competitive then. It might pay less...or more. Who knows?

Instead of worrying so much about specialties, consider what you want to do with your life. Do you want to make a difference? "Help people"? Are you willing to sacrifice certain things (time, family, and yes, sometimes even money) to do that?

If so, go to med school. If not, then don't. It's fine to have a goal, or an idea of what you want to do, but keep an open mind, and be willing to adapt to the changes med school will toss at you.

My 2 cents. All that being said, Rads is still at the top of my list, we'll see if that changes in the next couple years...
 
I applaud you atomi on your guts and determination!
You can't really "research" fields, you have to experience them in your clinical years of med school. We often clinical rotations as processes of elimination. But sometimes rotations can open our eyes up to things we never considered. I went in thinking I'd be a cardiologist. After 3rd year guess what...I still loved cardiology. However, I had discovered that I loved radiology more!
IMHO, the whole of medicine is incredibly fascinating and the human body is an engineering marvel that I'm sure you will learn to appreciate in med school.

As far as falling back to engineering... I have to ask how you plan on paying for med school. Do you have enough savings? Will your wife work to support you both? Building up 100,000 to 200,000 in loans pretty much commits you to seeing it through because it's almost impossible pay that back making 50,000/yr.
One more thing to consider is opportunity cost lost by taking 10+ years off while at the same time accruing debt. If you were in your mid-30s I'd say it's not worth it...although it's not all about money! This graph has been posted on SDN before and is pretty interesting (keeping in mind it doesn't account for interest)
doctor_income_chart.gif



Good luck!
 
I loved the UPS

mm

what about selling hotdogs ? pizzas ? 😀

bye
 
I'd also like to point out that the UPS driver has to work overtime to equal lifetime doctor salary, and that's going to take a big toll on your body. It's not easy work.
 
atomi said:
I'm at a crossroads. I'm about to start med school (at a well thought of school for what that's worth) and have come to the realization that rads is the only specialty I can see myself doing (I'm currently an engineer). I know everyone says minds change, but I've been doing nothing but studying this career path for the past three years. I think I would not like medicine at all, and I could not swallow the sacrifices required for surgery. From the surface, path or psych might be tolerable, but I honestly can't say I know enough about it given my lack of bio coursework. So, from where I stand, rads looks like the only field I can see myself going into and enjoying. I'm a work-to-live type of person, and this decision is very important and I need to know that it will be worth it (leaving an engineering career and pursuing rads). The salaries available to radiologists are 5 times more than I could ever hope to make as an engineer, which would allow me to accomplish life goals that otherwise would be unobtainable. The job security and flexibility look amazing in comparison, and I think the work would be an excellent fit for my personality. On top of this, I think it is one of the few specialties my fiancee would be semi-ok with (she would end it now if she thought I was going into ob/gyn or family med). So, I am excited about the prospects of rads, but discouraged about trudging through 4 years of med school and material I may or may not like to get there.

I am wondering how many people come into med school knowing that rads is pretty much the only thing they would want to do with their MD, and how they turn out. Is it a good idea to start med school with little interest in anything besides rads? Is rads really a good match for former engineers (I'm assuming everyone knows the engineering temperament)? And of course the burning question - what if you don't match the first time? Did that happen to anyone here or anyone you know.

Thanks for the advice!
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Hey Atomi,

You seem reasonable (for a premed😉) and thought I would put in my .02 as a senior (non-rad) resident with many resident friends in different specialties. A few of your comments concerned me a bit and I thought I would offer a slightly different perspective than you received from others.

First of all, I think radiology (for now at least) is a great field relative to medicine as a whole. If you absolutely have to practice medicine/go to med school, it is one of a few fields of medicine that I can even begin to recommend (the others being derm, rad onc, ent, em, and gas). Other than those fields, I would stay far far away.

I can't say that I've met too many people who entered medical school thinking seriously about radiology. Most people seem to want to do primary care or a surgical specialty early on. As people lose their idealism, realize there is more to life than medicine, and tire of the general entitled patient population, interests start to drift into other fields with better reimbursement, less paperwork, and less patient care (or at least less "ownership" or the patient). This is a gross generalization, but this is what I've seen. Generally, this happens 3rd/4th year but if you've already gotten to this point, 3rd/4th year might be more challenging for you.:laugh:

You mentioned that you need to know that "it will be worth it." IMHO, prior to matriculating to med school, you have to accept that it may very well not be worth it 10 years from now when you would be finishing, at least by your standards (salary 5X that of an engineer, job security, flexibilty). Obviously, you are aware that the healthcare system and reimbursement structure will likely look very different 10 years from now than it does today. The increasing cost of imaging services is arguably the biggest target of politicians/insurances companies, and it is unclear how this issue will be resolved. With regard to job security, radiology faces a variety of challenges with regard to turf battles with several other specialties, commoditization, teleradiology, etc. Imaging continues to play an even more important part of the practice of medicine and radiology will likely continue to thrive but the field faces more challenges than the average field.

Finally, on a personal note, you mentioned that your fiance would "end it now" if you were going to do something like FM or OB/Gyn. It's none of my business, but that concerns me a bit. Be careful. I will leave it at that.😀

Good luck.
 
atomi said:
Thanks for your input and concerns. Coming from a previous career, I am by no means an idealistic premed. I have no daydreams of spending every night in the ICU and giving the whole of my life to this job. Besides rads and maybe path or psych, I don't know what else I could swallow - maybe gas, I don't know. I get the impression that everybody thinks radiologist reimbursement will go down in the future. My question is, what determines reimbursement? Is this all based on what insurance companies are willing to pay? If the government requires everyone to have insurance (which seems to be the main idea of the healthcare "reform"), wouldn't that be a positive impact for providers? What is a realistic scenario of how things will change in the future? Are we talking about a 20% across the board pay cut to radiologists or a 50% cut? Even at a 50% cut, the pay level would still be enough to make it worth it financially. Do you all think this is really going to happen? I don't see how this can possibly be a good thing - slashing salaries would only drive away the best minds from the field, no?

The personal life issue you mentioned is a whole nother can of worms. Having a non-supportive partner is going to make this difficult.
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What determines reimbursement today will likely be very different than what determines reimbursement in the future. The change could be beneficial...but more than likely will not be beneficial. It is impossible to know. At the moment, physicians get paid for individual procedures or patient care activities from office visits to surgeries. This is the "professional component." Some physicians, such as surgeons who own ambulatory surgery centers and radiologists (and non-radiologists) who own imaging centers also collect a "technical component" for housing the surgery in their ASC or performing the scan in their imaging center. The relative value for all of these professional activities was initially established by some economist at Harvard for Medicare and the relative values are "adjusted" on a regular basis. Private insurance reimbursement is heavily influenced by these rates.

There is a movement among key members of the political leadership (people like Max Baucus, Sebilius, etc.) towards the idea of paying for "episodes of care." For a patient who is admitted for appendicitis, for example, intead of paying the ER doc for the initial evaluation, the radiologist for the CT reading, the surgeon for the diagnosis and surgery, the anesthesiologist for anesthesia services, the hospitalist for consulting on the patient's other medical problems, the psychiatrist for..., etc, the government will simply pay X dollars for the entire episode of care. How that X will be divided among all the docs will be controversial but I doubt this will be more advanageous to radiologists than the current system. But who knows? If you really enjoy radiology, I think it will be fine.

As for having a "non-supportive partner"...that is a challenge.
 
I wouldn't worry too much. I was fairly certain I wanted to do rads upon coming to medical school and it was what I ended up doing. I recommend keeping an open mind like everyone else has mentioned but there's no harm in having a couple of early ideas or targets.
 
Well it sounds like you've done your homework. You have a back up plan and you have some financial means. Knowing that and knowing what the risks are, go for it! Good luck!
 
atomi said:
I'm at a crossroads. I'm about to start med school (at a well thought of school for what that's worth) and have come to the realization that rads is the only specialty I can see myself doing (I'm currently an engineer). I know everyone says minds change, but I've been doing nothing but studying this career path for the past three years. I think I would not like medicine at all, and I could not swallow the sacrifices required for surgery. From the surface, path or psych might be tolerable, but I honestly can't say I know enough about it given my lack of bio coursework. So, from where I stand, rads looks like the only field I can see myself going into and enjoying. I'm a work-to-live type of person, and this decision is very important and I need to know that it will be worth it (leaving an engineering career and pursuing rads). The salaries available to radiologists are 5 times more than I could ever hope to make as an engineer, which would allow me to accomplish life goals that otherwise would be unobtainable. The job security and flexibility look amazing in comparison, and I think the work would be an excellent fit for my personality. On top of this, I think it is one of the few specialties my fiancee would be semi-ok with (she would end it now if she thought I was going into ob/gyn or family med). So, I am excited about the prospects of rads, but discouraged about trudging through 4 years of med school and material I may or may not like to get there.

I am wondering how many people come into med school knowing that rads is pretty much the only thing they would want to do with their MD, and how they turn out. Is it a good idea to start med school with little interest in anything besides rads? Is rads really a good match for former engineers (I'm assuming everyone knows the engineering temperament)? And of course the burning question - what if you don't match the first time? Did that happen to anyone here or anyone you know.

Thanks for the advice!
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so i am a current 3rd year med student in pretty much the exact same situation. i was an engineer in undergrad concentrating on imaging. i went straight from undergrad to med school...but i walked in thinking rads. i was surprised to see that i actually really liked internal medicine, general surgery, pediatrics, amongst others...but rads is still the best 🙂.

i cant tell you whats right for you...and i can say med school is painful, but im almost done and feeling its totally worth it. radiology is a great compromise between medicine and engineering and is really a field that makes you think on a daily basis without as much busy work as the other specialties.

i say go for it cause ive liked it. like i said...there were times when i couldnt take it cause i didnt care about what i was learning (ie obgyn)...but im really excited to get to 4th year and apply into rads. totally worth it.
 
If you really wanted to be doctor , go for it .

otherwise no
 
I'm a former engineer as well, and I just wanted to chime in to say that the two schools are like night and day. Engineering requires lots of dedicated focus and problem solving, whereas medicine is hours and hours of tedious memorization. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I only used my brain for actual problem solving for about 20 minutes in total during my entire medical school career. The rest of the time was essentially reading and memorizing material which was slightly more interesting than the phone book.

I only bring this up because its a very common complaint of engineers turned med students that they "aren't good at memorization" when in reality I think its more that they're not used to it, and are simply unwilling to do it. Its a whole new way of thinking, if you can call it that, and it may prove to be a bigger challenge than any of your current concerns. Many of your classmates will be memorizing machines, having come up through the life sciences pathways, so your work will be cut out for you to stay in the top x% of your class to be competitive for rads if you're not willing to change the way you work.

I'm not joking, its 100% memorization with the occasional "that's kind of interesting" moment thrown in there every few hours. At no time in medical school will you find yourself actually thinking.
 
I absolutely agree with Ham,

I struggled mightily the first 4 months of med school. Hated it. Thought I made a mistake, but changed studying habits. To this day I miss engineering problem solving.
One recommendation from personal experience I could give (though i'm only MS3), is to do something other than medical school on the side. I did programming/ software development for labs in 2nd year - ofcourse that meant skipping class. kept me sane 🙂
 
Man, to each their own. I rather stick a screw driver in my ear than go back to programming.
 
I decided to go into medicine while getting a degree in physics. I wanted to be either a rad onc or a radiologist. I volunteered at a gamma knife facility in a major hospital while in school for 3yrs. When I started med school those were the only two fields I considered. Even during my med school interviews when they asked me what I was interested in I gave very specific answers.

Although while going through I can honestly say that many different fields held my interest. I think most people that like radiology enjoy many different fields though. I even considered going into several different fields instead if I could not make the grades or did poorly. Glad it all worked out and I'll be finishing internship here in a month and finally doing nothing but radiology. I'm really excited about studying for the physics board. I know that sounds weird, but I love physics.
 
jpro said:
I decided to go into medicine while getting a degree in physics. I wanted to be either a rad onc or a radiologist. I volunteered at a gamma knife facility in a major hospital while in school for 3yrs. When I started med school those were the only two fields I considered. Even during my med school interviews when they asked me what I was interested in I gave very specific answers.

Although while going through I can honestly say that many different fields held my interest. I think most people that like radiology enjoy many different fields though. I even considered going into several different fields instead if I could not make the grades or did poorly. Glad it all worked out and I'll be finishing internship here in a month and finally doing nothing but radiology. I'm really excited about studying for the physics board. I know that sounds weird, but I love physics.
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I think you will find that the physics you've learned for your degree is substantially different than the "physics" you'll have to know for the ABR. Your practical knowledge from working in the rad-onc facility may be of more help on that examination.
 
atomi said:
My study habits in engineering school was basically to make a formula sheet with equations and examples, and then work sample problems all night long. Understanding the concept was more important than memorizing it.

I have heard that engineers make excellent medical students and doctors, but what you are saying seems contrary to that. Not being able to figure things out or think critically doesn't sound too appealing. That being said, to a former engineer, what would you recommend as the most effective method of study? Highlighting and flash cards? I don't think I ever used those once in undergrad.

You have to be in the top of your class to match into rads? What if your schools is P/F with no AOA?
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First, you don't have to be at the top of your class to match into rads somewhere. You just want to be near the top to match to maximize your chances of going where you want to go. The top programs are as competitive as Derm, and getting a Rads spot in cities like San Diego, New York, LA, Boston can be ridiculously difficult. Just smoke your boards and try to distinguish yourself from your classmates in some way, if you can't otherwise do it with grades/AOA.

Second, I found the best way for me to study is to look up and verify every little thing that I didn't understand, using multiple sources, and ultimately create a single summarized cheat-sheet for every lecture. That way the process is at least active, and you're thinking about the best way to synthesize it all into as concise a form as possible. You still have to memorize your cheat sheet, and end up with 15-20+ cheat sheets per exam to memorize, but at least its somewhat an active process. You still don't really use your brain in any meaningful way, but its the best I could do.

Finally, in medical school the concepts are entirely secondary to the details. With the exception of maybe your physiology/path classes, concepts are what you learn on your own time for fun, in between periods of rote memorization of the details which will show up on the exam/boards.

If you find a more engineer-friendly way of doing it, more power to you. There's just no way around memorizing a ton of useless ****.
 
To add to the engineering to rads discussion:

Im an engineering undergrad who realized I wanted to medicine so i shadowed my friend's dad who worked in engineering industry for a little while before eventually becoming a radiologist.

FWIW: He said engineers often struggle first 2 years of med school but start to perform really well once you get to 3/4th year and residency. (I guess the problem solving comes in handy at that point?)
 
surftheiop said:
To add to the engineering to rads discussion:

Im an engineering undergrad who realized I wanted to medicine so i shadowed my friend's dad who worked in engineering industry for a little while before eventually becoming a radiologist.

FWIW: He said engineers often struggle first 2 years of med school but start to perform really well once you get to 3/4th year and residency. (I guess the problem solving comes in handy at that point?)
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If by problem solving, you mean figuring out which flavor of coffee to get your resident, then yes, you will do well. LOL! 3rd and 4th year of med school pretty much comes down to being a nice resourceful scut monkey who doesn't whine a lot and doesn't step on other people's toes.

You will probably do better during first couple of years when your grade solely depends on how you do on tests.
 
gluon999 said:
If by problem solving, you mean figuring out which flavor of coffee to get your resident, then yes, you will do well. LOL! 3rd and 4th year of med school pretty much comes down to being a nice resourceful scut monkey who doesn't whine a lot and doesn't step on other people's toes.

You will probably do better during first couple of years when your grade solely depends on how you do on tests.
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That was just his experience, things might have changed in the last 20 years.
 
I would say that's still a pretty accurate assessment. Only instead of getting coffee, you make phone calls.
 
atomi said:
Why did you choose rads over rad onc? How much of it actually is flexing your physics knowledge? I ask because I myself am a huge physics nerd too, although I decided on the EE route with an E&M focus when I was an undergrad. Where does gamma knife fall under? IR or rad onc? Also, can you explain what exactly the field of "nuclear medicine" entails? I can't seem to tell if it is a separate residency of its own or a fellowship or some sort of interdisciplinary specialization.
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1. Rads > Rad Onc: For me this was tough because obviously Rad onc is much heavier on the physics but also is mope heavy on patients and clinic. I can't stand clinic, and I'm getting pissed just thinking about it. Also, radiology is way more all encompassing with greater opportunities and not so focused unless you want to. I loved diagnosing and finding the problems in med school, not necessarily treating. I you want to get into physics in radiology trust me you can. Most people don't like getting into it and that's OK.

2. Gamma Knife is Rad Onc

3. Nuclear Medicine can be a residency on its own but most people prefer to do rads instead for many reasons you can search on this and many other forums. You can also do a fellowship I think. Nuclear medicine in a nutshell is detecting radiation coming from the body. I think I will leave it at that and have you look up the rest.😉
 
Another former "engineer" (fake one, computer science) here, thought it would be fun to chime in.

Contrary to what many here seem to suggest, I thought the first two years were surprisingly easy. In fact, I was surprised how little intellect it takes to become a medical doctor. I was seriously like the village idiot at my engineering company (cs, ee, physics and aerospace guys) and I remember hoping I would be able to just pass the classes. But in med school I'm always near the top of the class and I make it a point to study less than average (disclaimer- not a top 25 school) .

Personally I am a very $hitty rote memorizer but when it came to visual-spatial stuff like anatomy, being able to visualize stuff in your head as an engineer and make those connections makes it much easier than the kids who sat down and made 500 stupid flashcards. You will enjoy classes like pharm and respiratory because all of the bio kids cry whenever they see an equation, and while they try to memorize equations for the test you will be better at rederiving and retaining the fundamental formulas.

In general your classmates will be much strong memorizers than you but you will retain a better underlying understanding of the material with a strong conceptual background. Because of this you are much more likely to kick their asses on step I.

And while there is a $hit-ton of blind memorization, the material is actually pretty fascinating. And after 3rd or 4th year all of the bull**** semi-comes together and start to appreciate the big picture / "gist" of medicine.

As many others have alluded to, the downside is there is little to no creative thinking in practical medicine. Everything is more and more evidence based, giving you little creativity in how to attack problems. It's all pattern recognition and algorithm execution. The exception is probably surgery where there is a little more spontineity in your choosing your cuts.

The other day I stayed up until 5am working on a little hobby program for fun and I realized how much I missed that freedom / creativity.
 
Though I'm not dead set on any specialty as of yet, this is an awesome thread, hearing the perspective of fellow engineers going into medicine. Hopefully my experience will mimic GMDMDs.

It will be quite an adjustment not having open book exams. Some of my textbooks (fluid mechanics, heat transfer) are covered in those little plastic post-it tabs with the important formulas/graphs on them for easy reference, cause otherwise you're just running out of time on the exams.

Most important thing I took away from engineering classes: Make the units cancel, and you're 90% of the way towards solving the problem.
 
atomi said:
Well this is encouraging. I am still worried on how to start. I don't remember a thing from Bio since I flushed it from my mind after taking the MCAT. And I have no idea how to study properly in med school (I had it down to a science for engineering and math). I guess you're just saying try to memorize what you can and then work your way through the exams. I'll see how it goes!
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I think it is unwise to go into medical school set on just one highly competitive specialty, and a specialty that is in a very precarious position. Why do I say this?

First of all, you may be smarter than your high school and college classmates. Many of us were. But in med school you're competing with many people with equal or superior backgrounds/qualifications. You may expect to be near the top of your class, but top of your class is not an absolute - it's relative to the others and you might be surprised at the competition.

Second, "smoking the boards" is no joke. I did quite well but didn't get a 265. You will be competing with rads applicants with scores of 260-280+ (yes, they exist). A 250-260 score will be sufficient but won't really impress anyone.

Third, radiology is more precarious than many patient-contact specialties precisely because it does not involve proximity to the patient. What are you going to do when hospitals decide it's cheaper to transmit the images to India and have their radiologists prepare the reports than to pay radiologists in the US huge salaries for the same job? The only reason radiology is so popular today is because it avoids direct patient contact (which was sort of the point of medicine, wasn't it?), because it is artificially reimbursed so high (esp. vis-a-vis primary care), and because its workload and off-work responsibilities are far less grueling than those of EM, the medical specialties, and especially general surgery.

Fourth, if you are an engineer, if you are interested in mechanisms and systems, the most interesting specialties are going to be 1.) the "macro-system" specialties - nephrology, urology, cardiology, pulmonology, orthopedics, neurology, ophthalmology; 2.) the diagnostic ones - the ones with the mysterious, bizarre diseases, the diseases that are devastating and have no cure yet. Pathology, internal medicine, pediatrics, neurology, etc. and the various subspecialties of these fields. So it really doesn't make sense to me that radiology would be the most fascinating field for you.
 
GMDMD said:
Another former "engineer" (fake one, computer science) here, thought it would be fun to chime in.

Contrary to what many here seem to suggest, I thought the first two years were surprisingly easy. In fact, I was surprised how little intellect it takes to become a medical doctor. I was seriously like the village idiot at my engineering company (cs, ee, physics and aerospace guys) and I remember hoping I would be able to just pass the classes. But in med school I'm always near the top of the class and I make it a point to study less than average (disclaimer- not a top 25 school) .

Personally I am a very $hitty rote memorizer but when it came to visual-spatial stuff like anatomy, being able to visualize stuff in your head as an engineer and make those connections makes it much easier than the kids who sat down and made 500 stupid flashcards. You will enjoy classes like pharm and respiratory because all of the bio kids cry whenever they see an equation, and while they try to memorize equations for the test you will be better at rederiving and retaining the fundamental formulas.

In general your classmates will be much strong memorizers than you but you will retain a better underlying understanding of the material with a strong conceptual background. Because of this you are much more likely to kick their asses on step I.

And while there is a $hit-ton of blind memorization, the material is actually pretty fascinating. And after 3rd or 4th year all of the bull**** semi-comes together and start to appreciate the big picture / "gist" of medicine.

As many others have alluded to, the downside is there is little to no creative thinking in practical medicine. Everything is more and more evidence based, giving you little creativity in how to attack problems. It's all pattern recognition and algorithm execution. The exception is probably surgery where there is a little more spontineity in your choosing your cuts.

The other day I stayed up until 5am working on a little hobby program for fun and I realized how much I missed that freedom / creativity.
Click to expand...

Step 1 is not about concepts, it's about details. You can know all the physiology, biophysics, biochem, etc. concepts perfectly and if you don't know the details you will do poorly or fail.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Step 1 is not about concepts, it's about details. You can know all the physiology, biophysics, biochem, etc. concepts perfectly and if you don't know the details you will do poorly or fail.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. Of course you have to know a million bull**** details just to pass medical school classes.

However, if you're smart you can get away with less. You will have classmates who study forever and will have memorized more details than you (ie every hundredth detail between trisomy 13 and 18- useless $hit i REFUSE to memorize), and yet you can do better on exams than they do because the logical reasoning and synthesizing isn't there. And it is clear when you talk to them that they have more volume of knowledge but the understanding of the underlying material isn't as solid. You ask them a conceptual question and they say "I don't know I just memorized that page." Not an uncommon mentality in the biological sciences. You'll find these guys are useless to learn from unless you're trying to remember trivia.

Details are king but a little understanding can go a long way. It can be the difference between a 230 and a 240. It helps you reason through questions and situations you haven't seen before. The difference between me and my buddy who routinely topped our classes wasn't in the details. It was in his superior critical thinking ability.

You will find that this will extend to third year and beyond. You will have residents who are pretty good at managing patients etc but you will see that many of them don't understand a lot of what they do or give you bull$hit or fluff answers to more probing questions. The better residents and attendings understand pathophys, understand why certain tests are ordered, understand why certain treatments/techniques are used and what makes them more effective.
 
I have to agree with GMDMD here. Not just because I'm an ex-engineer myself, but because my experience has very closely followed his own. I studied far less than average and was always in the top 10-20% of my class on every exam. Sure, I spent my fair share of time trying to memorize those little details that you knew were going to come up (after all, it doesn't really do a lot of good to know how a particular drug works if you can't recall the name for an exam!), but the general concepts, links from subject to subject, mechanisms, underlying principals... that was where I found myself spending the most time. And it seemed to have paid off.

Step 1 was no different. While I didn't break any records, I think a 250+ score confirms that my class wasn't just a bunch of slackers. And much as GMDMD stated, I found that while there were always a few students in my class who studied their butts off for every exam and were also the top couple of scorers, they also scored 20+ points lower on step 1. The boards, at least step 1, is not just about details. You need to know plenty of them, but mechanisms, true understanding, and application rule the day, not regurgitation.

As far as the statement that you'll be competing against 260-280 board scores and that 250 won't impress anyone, that's just a bunch of BS unless you are suicide ranking the top program in the country. Sure, there are plenty of applicants out there with 260+ scores (there might be one 280 out there, and he probably isn't even applying for rads, and if so probably isn't ranking the programs you are, and if so who cares because there aren't any programs with only a single slot... let's get real). But if you look at the real data, you'll see that the average score for matched rads residents has hovered around or just above 235. The average. Keep in mind that 250 is around the top 10% or so of all students nationally. And while more top scores might be applying for rads than would be proportionate, you can still expect to have a better score than the majority of people who will match, much less be competing with you in interviews. Also keep in mind, however, that a 250 isn't a particularly easy score to achieve... but a little more realistic than 265. A 240 puts you right in the thick of things, and as always you school grades (clinical), letters, and the rest of your application, not to mention interviews, carry just a bit of weight too... it isn't like the program director looks at your step 1 score and says yea or nay.

I will agree that the future of rads has some uncertainty. What field doesn't? With Obama at the wheel, the whole of medicine is full of uncertainty. But of you've done your homework, crunched the financial numbers, and think this is really the right path for you, go for it. As an engineer, I'd say you have a better chance of matching to the specialty of your dreams than the average med student.
 
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GMDMD said:
However, if you're smart you can get away with less. You will have classmates who study forever and will have memorized more details than you (ie every hundredth detail between trisomy 13 and 18- useless $hit i REFUSE to memorize), and yet you can do better on exams than they do because the logical reasoning and synthesizing isn't there. And it is clear when you talk to them that they have more volume of knowledge but the understanding of the underlying material isn't as solid. You ask them a conceptual question and they say "I don't know I just memorized that page." Not an uncommon mentality in the biological sciences. You'll find these guys are useless to learn from unless you're trying to remember trivia.

Details are king but a little understanding can go a long way. It can be the difference between a 230 and a 240. It helps you reason through questions and situations you haven't seen before. The difference between me and my buddy who routinely topped our classes wasn't in the details. It was in his superior critical thinking ability.

You will find that this will extend to third year and beyond. You will have residents who are pretty good at managing patients etc but you will see that many of them don't understand a lot of what they do or give you bull$hit or fluff answers to more probing questions. The better residents and attendings understand pathophys, understand why certain tests are ordered, understand why certain treatments/techniques are used and what makes them more effective.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is right on. I have always had classmates (undergrad and beyond) who seemed to be able to regurgitate more information/trivial facts than myself, but I have been in the top 5-10% throughout undergrad, MCAT, medschool, and Steps1&2. I've never studied my ass off, but rather used logic to figure questions out. This is especially true for standardize exams such as the MCAT and Step exams that heavily test concepts. Understanding the big picture is the most important thing and will also help for long-term retention. A lot of questions can be answered by logical deduction or by remembering things professors said in class. The details that you do need to memorize by brute force you will see over and over again and heavily stressed in lectures. I thought I was the only one like this, then I became friends with the #1 guy in our class and found he did things the same way....

Now that I am on the medicine month of my TY, I can definitely say there is WAY more memorization needed than there was for Step 2, that I recently took.... I thought I would be well prepared with 265+ on Step 2.. I was wrong!
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
I think it is unwise to go into medical school set on just one highly competitive specialty, and a specialty that is in a very precarious position. Why do I say this?

First of all, you may be smarter than your high school and college classmates. Many of us were. But in med school you're competing with many people with equal or superior backgrounds/qualifications. You may expect to be near the top of your class, but top of your class is not an absolute - it's relative to the others and you might be surprised at the competition.

Second, "smoking the boards" is no joke. I did quite well but didn't get a 265. You will be competing with rads applicants with scores of 260-280+ (yes, they exist). A 250-260 score will be sufficient but won't really impress anyone.

Third, radiology is more precarious than many patient-contact specialties precisely because it does not involve proximity to the patient. What are you going to do when hospitals decide it's cheaper to transmit the images to India and have their radiologists prepare the reports than to pay radiologists in the US huge salaries for the same job? The only reason radiology is so popular today is because it avoids direct patient contact (which was sort of the point of medicine, wasn't it?), because it is artificially reimbursed so high (esp. vis-a-vis primary care), and because its workload and off-work responsibilities are far less grueling than those of EM, the medical specialties, and especially general surgery.

Fourth, if you are an engineer, if you are interested in mechanisms and systems, the most interesting specialties are going to be 1.) the "macro-system" specialties - nephrology, urology, cardiology, pulmonology, orthopedics, neurology, ophthalmology; 2.) the diagnostic ones - the ones with the mysterious, bizarre diseases, the diseases that are devastating and have no cure yet. Pathology, internal medicine, pediatrics, neurology, etc. and the various subspecialties of these fields. So it really doesn't make sense to me that radiology would be the most fascinating field for you.
Click to expand...

interesting message. i wonder what is the right specialty for me? I like how u described 1) and 2). But in specialties like cardiology and pulmonology dont you just give expensive drugs and artery cleanings for patients who are too sick to survive. While in EM you actually diagnose heart attacks, arhythmias, and pneumonia? And I know very little about radiology, but Ive been learning about xrays. And I still struggle to tell apart which is ulna and which is radius in a lateral view and that should be very easy. I imagine radiologists get to solve some puzzles from their images? Or do they just say "i am not sure" whenever someone consults them for a complicated image?
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
I think it is unwise to go into medical school set on just one highly competitive specialty, and a specialty that is in a very precarious position. Why do I say this?

First of all, you may be smarter than your high school and college classmates. Many of us were. But in med school you're competing with many people with equal or superior backgrounds/qualifications. You may expect to be near the top of your class, but top of your class is not an absolute - it's relative to the others and you might be surprised at the competition.

Second, "smoking the boards" is no joke. I did quite well but didn't get a 265. You will be competing with rads applicants with scores of 260-280+ (yes, they exist). A 250-260 score will be sufficient but won't really impress anyone.

Third, radiology is more precarious than many patient-contact specialties precisely because it does not involve proximity to the patient. What are you going to do when hospitals decide it's cheaper to transmit the images to India and have their radiologists prepare the reports than to pay radiologists in the US huge salaries for the same job? The only reason radiology is so popular today is because it avoids direct patient contact (which was sort of the point of medicine, wasn't it?), because it is artificially reimbursed so high (esp. vis-a-vis primary care), and because its workload and off-work responsibilities are far less grueling than those of EM, the medical specialties, and especially general surgery.

Fourth, if you are an engineer, if you are interested in mechanisms and systems, the most interesting specialties are going to be 1.) the "macro-system" specialties - nephrology, urology, cardiology, pulmonology, orthopedics, neurology, ophthalmology; 2.) the diagnostic ones - the ones with the mysterious, bizarre diseases, the diseases that are devastating and have no cure yet. Pathology, internal medicine, pediatrics, neurology, etc. and the various subspecialties of these fields. So it really doesn't make sense to me that radiology would be the most fascinating field for you.
Click to expand...

Mercapt,

I don't think you have a very good understanding of radiology at all. First of all, it's hardly necessary to score 250 to be competitive in the applicant pool. 220s is respectable, if not outstanding, for a radiology applicant and people get accepted into residencies with even less than 210.


Your comments about what should and should not be interesting to people are quite arbitrary as well. There's no reason why someone who is interested in systems SHOULDN'T enjoy radiology, and it makes utterly no sense for you to list several "diagnostic specialties" without including radiology in the group. Radiologists see a great deal of pathology, and in many senses see more pathology than any other specialty because their patient volume is so high -- virtually no other specialty literally encounters hundreds of patients a week, all of whom potentially (though not generally in reality) carry different diagnoses and pathology with them.

Radiology is a particularly interesting field, in my limited experience, for people who enjoy learning about disease, want a breadth of different pathologies to deal with, and enjoy puzzle-solving but are not so interested in management or follow-through. And also for geeks who love computers (though this is not a requirement). 👍
 
atomi said:
So what type of person and mind is radiology ideal for?
Click to expand...

I was a rad tech for many years that decided to go to med school to become a radiologist from day one and am now applying to residency. I knew exactly what they did day-in and day-out, so I knew what I was in for. You have to spend significant amounts of time with them to make an informed decision or you will be miserable.

With that said, if you know you wanna do rads from day one, you can pay special attn to areas of your studies that will help you in rads. I have picked up so many pearls from years 1-3, knowing that I will use them later in my career.

You have to keep an open mind in all areas of medicine though. I was quite surprised how much I enjoyed psych, pedi and surgery. Still applying to rads though, but in case you aren't a stellar applicant, try to have a back-up plan as you go through school and then decide for sure.

Yeah, it's competative. You have to be willing to do residency anywhere in the country. If you aren't willing to go to a no-name program in the middle of nowhere, then I think you aren't committed enough to do this, or any specialty in medicine. Don't do all the work to get there and not cross the finish line.

Radiology mind? Generally, you have to be extremely detail-oriented and not mind spending a hour looking at a something. Specifically, you have to love anatomy and pathology. There are massive amounts of information you have to know and you will spend hours-upon-hours reading books and going over and over films. That's the only way to learn it.

Financially, if your wife will work while your in school, you don't have to take out much loans at all. We are doing just fine, but I also go to a public school in the south, which are cheaper than the north or coasts. It's all about happiness, not loans, work hours, big name programs, etc. If you think it'll make you happy, do it. Everything else will fall into place 🙂
 
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