Any regrets on pursuing dentistry?

[Lankers]

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You may have some leeway on DTI as a dentist, but it still matters. You will need at least 10% down payment to buy a practice. If you are starting a practice, you'll need to produce credible proforma projections that convinces a bank that you know what you're doing. Buying a practice is a little easier as you'll have historical financials on which to evaluate repayment ability.

Interesting. Most people I know (graduating students / practice owners) usually get the loan from the practice owner and then pay them back over time.

Here is the math: if a new dentist is only making $600/day working 5 days/week, that's $6,000 bi-weekly gross. Bi-weekly take home is $4,150 (in Arizona - many states have higher tax rates), so monthly take home is $8,200.

That seems extremely low from conversations I have had with said graduating students / practice owners. Again, I think the location of where you are practicing makes a huge difference, and categorically saying it is not worth it due to financial reasons is unfair. You are not mistaken though, the high amount of student loan could cause problems. Then again, there are military scholarships, as well as other scholarships. Also, people can handle to debt load differently. Some people will just look as it as an investment that will pay off over time, while some people will cringe over it everyday. Again, it is a very personal decision and not an easy yes or no as to if it is worth it.

 

[charlestweed]

I'll add my two cents for the fellow pre-dents. I was offered admission to a state dental school this year, but will decline it due to cost (~$385K COA including interest accrual over 4 years). What really concerns me is that for every post from a pre-dent regarding concerns over cost of attendance, there are probably 1,000 others that are blindly jumping into dental school with no concern for tuition and fees. However, tuition costs are just the beginning.

After graduation, you will have to contend with problematic industry economics (saturation, DSOs, declining insurance reimbursements, etc). I was planning to attend dental school, complete a one-year GPR residency, and then invest/open a practice in the area. I have a good business and finance background and was looking forward to putting forth the "sweat-equity" required to grow a new practice. Nonetheless, the numbers simply don't add up. It will be very hard to comfortably invest in anything while paying $4,000/month for 10 years on an associate GP salary. That is before accounting for insurance, house and living expenses, malpractice, retirement and investing, etc. Banks will have a hard time lending to someone with such a high debt-to-income ratio.

After living like a broke student for 4+ years under considerable pressure, the last thing you'll want to do is feel like the working poor for years on end.

So you decide not become a dentist after all. On another post, you told us that you quit your banking job and went back to school to take prerequisite classes for dental school. I hope you didn't take out loan to take those prerequisite classes. What is your plan for the future?

 

[VJP212]

Interesting. Most people I know (graduating students / practice owners) usually get the loan from the practice owner and then pay them back over time.

That seems extremely low from conversations I have had with said graduating students / practice owners. Again, I think the location of where you are practicing makes a huge difference, and categorically saying it is not worth it due to financial reasons is unfair. You are not mistaken though, the high amount of student loan could cause problems. Then again, there are military scholarships, as well as other scholarships. Also, people can handle to debt load differently. Some people will just look as it as an investment that will pay off over time, while some people will cringe over it everyday. Again, it is a very personal decision and not an easy yes or no as to if it is worth it.

I'm sure there is variability depending on location, type of clinic, etc. However, it's a risky bet. You are right that certain people have different relationships with money and debt.

I've always said that money management is 90% psychological and 10% technical. Most of the technical is common sense after some self-education and experience. It's the psychological part that leads to the drastically different outcomes you see across the socioeconomic spectrum. Our society constantly telegraphs that you must take "risk" to become wealthy. However, equally important is managing the financial road bumps that can easily turn into financial beartraps if you don't have a clear-eyed view of what you're doing. Dentistry, unfortunately, appears to be one of those paths with asymmetric outcomes...there are 100 ways it can go wrong (debt, depression, bad locations, etc etc) and only a select few (in my opinion) where it can really pay off.

 

[VJP212]

So you decide not become a dentist after all. On another post, you told us that you quit your banking job and went back to school to take prerequisite classes for dental school. I hope you didn't take out loan to take those prerequisite classes. What is your plan for the future?

That is correct. Fortunately, I only spent a couple thousand on the prerequisite courses at a great community college, plus the cost of time away from work. I'm also fortunate that the stock and real estate markets have done well - which has enabled me to have flexibility so far. I wouldn't have been able to do it if I had debt or family. It was a long shot, and I "made it," but sometimes you have to know when to walk away from a bad deal.

Plans are to return to banking and continue trying to get my own consulting business off the ground.

 

[Lankers]

Dentistry, unfortunately, appears to be one of those paths with asymmetric outcomes...there are 100 ways it can go wrong (debt, depression, bad locations, etc etc) and only a select few (in my opinion) where it can really pay off.

You and I have met vastly different practicing dentists. It could be possible I have met top producing dentist. For the most part, I think there are more asymmetric outcomes in other fields than dentistry. Maybe there are 100 ways it can go wrong in dentistry, but there are probably 1000 ways it can go wrong in other professions. At the end of the day, dentistry is about serving your patients and the community. It seems money is more of your motivation and trying to get a consulting business off the ground will probably serve you and dentistry for the best.

 

[GoDental101]

You and I have met vastly different practicing dentists. It could be possible I have met top producing dentist. For the most part, I think there are more asymmetric outcomes in other fields than dentistry. Maybe there are 100 ways it can go wrong in dentistry, but there are probably 1000 ways it can go wrong in other professions. At the end of the day, dentistry is about serving your patients and the community. It seems money is more of your motivation and trying to get a consulting business off the ground will probably serve you and dentistry for the best.

That last part was low key kinda savage haha, but yeah I agree money shouldn't be the entire reason someone is going into dentistry. There are so many other factors to consider. Definitely such a personal and individual type of decision.

 

[PerioDont]

Interesting. Most people I know (graduating students / practice owners) usually get the loan from the practice owner and then pay them back over time.

That seems extremely low from conversations I have had with said graduating students / practice owners. Again, I think the location of where you are practicing makes a huge difference, and categorically saying it is not worth it due to financial reasons is unfair. You are not mistaken though, the high amount of student loan could cause problems. Then again, there are military scholarships, as well as other scholarships. Also, people can handle to debt load differently. Some people will just look as it as an investment that will pay off over time, while some people will cringe over it everyday. Again, it is a very personal decision and not an easy yes or no as to if it is worth it.

From the people I know, the vast majority of people do not do internal financing and seek outside financing options. This is an interesting perspective.

Definitely agree that location can make a great difference in income levels for dentistry.

 

[Lankers]

From the people I know, the vast majority of people do not do internal financing and seek outside financing options. This is an interesting perspective.

I wonder if it is a regional thing? I guess it is possible I have been lucky enough to have shadowed the higher producing dentists- so they have the financial flexibility to provide the loan. Maybe that really is an outlier. Again, I bet it has a lot to do with the location. Some states have multiple dental schools, some have one, some have none. The barriers of entry could be higher in some states. Sure, all you need is the DMD or DDS (NY requires GPR or AEGD), but do you really want to move to somewhere in the midwest if you have no family or friends here? If you don't already live here, it is easy to say hell no.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone just starting dental school- albeit I have had very open and transparent conversations with new grads as well as practicing dentists.

 

[GoDental101]

I wonder if it is a regional thing? I guess it is possible I have been lucky enough to have shadowed the higher producing dentists- so they have the financial flexibility to provide the loan. Maybe that really is an outlier. Again, I bet it has a lot to do with the location. Some states have multiple dental schools, some have one, some have none. The barriers of entry could be higher in some states. Sure, all you need is the DMD or DDS (NY requires GPR or AEGD), but do you really want to move to somewhere in the midwest if you have no family or friends here? If you don't already live here, it is easy to say hell no.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone just starting dental school- albeit I have had very open and transparent conversations with new grads as well as practicing dentists.

I'd agree on the regional take. People from across the U.S vary significantly on how they view these types of practice transitions. More rural/small town type of areas are more likely to do a deal with the practice owner in order to get financing or even smaller local banks.

 

[charlestweed]

That is correct. Fortunately, I only spent a couple thousand on the prerequisite courses at a great community college, plus the cost of time away from work. I'm also fortunate that the stock and real estate markets have done well - which has enabled me to have flexibility so far. I wouldn't have been able to do it if I had debt or family. It was a long shot, and I "made it," but sometimes you have to know when to walk away from a bad deal.

Plans are to return to banking and continue trying to get my own consulting business off the ground.

I think you make the right decision. I too would decline the school’s acceptance offer, if I were in my mid 30s and had to take out that much loan amount to become a dentist. I would say yes, if I were a young 21-22 yo 3rd or 4th year undergrad student.

I had a dental classmate who started school at 40. I was 22 when I started. After dental school, my classmate spent 2 additional years for his ortho residency. So he didn’t start earning his dream 6-figure income until he was 46. About 3 years ago (I was 45-46 yo and he was 63-64 yo), he called and asked me if I was interested in buying his office because he has had some health problems and wanted to retire. So even with the less physically demanding job like ortho, you can’t work forever. As you get older, you start having aches and pains that don’t go away. Getting old sucks. I am a big Dave Ramsey's fan…..work hard now and get out of debt ASAP. You need to be in good health and have enough time to accomplish this.

 

[VJP212]

I think you make the right decision. I too would decline the school’s acceptance offer, if I were in my mid 30s and had to take out that much loan amount to become a dentist. I would say yes, if I were a young 21-22 yo 3rd or 4th year undergrad student.

I had a dental classmate who started school at 40. I was 22 when I started. After dental school, my classmate spent 2 additional years for his ortho residency. So he didn’t start earning his dream 6-figure income until he was 46. About 3 years ago (I was 45-46 yo and he was 63-64 yo), he called and asked me if I was interested in buying his office because he has had some health problems and wanted to retire. So even with the less physically demanding job like ortho, you can’t work forever. As you get older, you start having aches and pains that don’t go away. Getting old sucks. I am a big Dave Ramsey's fan…..work hard now and get out of debt ASAP. You need to be in good health and have enough time to accomplish this.

40- wow! I'm sure dental school and the specialty programs at the time weren't as prohibitively expensive as they are today. Seems like all of the ortho residencies demand at least another $200K.

I've been listening to Dave Ramsey since high school - perhaps why I'm so afraid of debt! I had a modest amount of student loans after my undergrad. At the time I was working in a corporate accounting job and hated most aspects of it. I remember the awful feeling of working and thinking about paying down the debt. It turbocharged my already frugal nature, which helped me in the long run. Nonetheless, I don't want to feel that way again.