Any thoughts among programs?

[psychyes93]

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Which would you advise to go for? Thoughts among Antioch University's Masters in Clinical Psychology, PsyD from American school of professional psychology, or PsyD from Alliant University.

Based in Southern California, so those are my options thus far.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Don't go to/consider any of the for profit schools (Alliant, Argosy, etc). They provide poor training, high debt, and bad outcomes (their match rates, for instance, are horrific). I would advise you to locate programs that fit your professional goals, that have a good reputation, and are fully funded. This may require moving (it usually does).

 

[erg923]

Which would you advise to go for? Thoughts among Antioch University's Masters in Clinical Psychology, PsyD from American school of professional psychology, or PsyD from Alliant University.

Based in Southern California, so those are my options thus far.

No one is going to advise/encourage you to go any of those types of programs.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

USC, UCLA and the SDSU/UCSD joint program are all in southern California, last I checked. There must some others as well.

 

[deleted760483]

Just to throw out a dissenting opinion, I am an Argosy graduate and am very happy with the course of my career. I passed comps on the first try, got my second choice of accredited internships, had a post-doc secured halfway through my pre-doc, passed the EPPP on the first try, and am starting my dream job next month. I feel the quality of training I received was very high. I cannot dispute the high cost of the program, it is very pricey. Personally I was in a situation where I didn't have any other options, I applied to a number of better funded programs and didn't get in, I assume because my overall GPA was a bit lower than ideal, as were my GRE scores. I really didn't start taking school seriously until junior year of college and pretty much had no career aspirations before then. If you have "better" options absolutely consider them, but I have a much higher opinion of Arogsy than many here.

That being said, I am an Argosy Twin Cities grad so I couldn't speak at all the what your experience in California would be. I don't really know how similar they are.

 

[psych.meout]

Just to throw out a dissenting opinion, I am an Argosy graduate and am very happy with the course of my career. I passed comps on the first try, got my second choice of accredited internships, had a post-doc secured halfway through my pre-doc, passed the EPPP on the first try, and am starting my dream job next month. I feel the quality of training I received was very high. I cannot dispute the high cost of the program, it is very pricey. Personally I was in a situation where I didn't have any other options, I applied to a number of better funded programs and didn't get in, I assume because my overall GPA was a bit lower than ideal, as were my GRE scores. I really didn't start taking school seriously until junior year of college and pretty much had no career aspirations before then. If you have "better" options absolutely consider them, but I have a much higher opinion of Arogsy than many here.

That being said, I am an Argosy Twin Cities grad so I couldn't speak at all the what your experience in California would be. I don't really know how similar they are.

Out of curiosity, what were your GPA and GRE scores?

 

[psychyes93]

Just to throw out a dissenting opinion, I am an Argosy graduate and am very happy with the course of my career. I passed comps on the first try, got my second choice of accredited internships, had a post-doc secured halfway through my pre-doc, passed the EPPP on the first try, and am starting my dream job next month. I feel the quality of training I received was very high. I cannot dispute the high cost of the program, it is very pricey. Personally I was in a situation where I didn't have any other options, I applied to a number of better funded programs and didn't get in, I assume because my overall GPA was a bit lower than ideal, as were my GRE scores. I really didn't start taking school seriously until junior year of college and pretty much had no career aspirations before then. If you have "better" options absolutely consider them, but I have a much higher opinion of Arogsy than many here.

That being said, I am an Argosy Twin Cities grad so I couldn't speak at all the what your experience in California would be. I don't really know how similar they are.

I'm assuming you're talking about an MA in Clinical Psych?

 

[psych.meout]

I'm assuming you're talking about an MA in Clinical Psych?

No, PsyD.

https://www.argosy.edu/clinical-psy...ties/clinical-psychology-doctor-of-psychology

 

[psychyes93]

Don't go to/consider any of the for profit schools (Alliant, Argosy, etc). They provide poor training, high debt, and bad outcomes (their match rates, for instance, are horrific). I would advise you to locate programs that fit your professional goals, that have a good reputation, and are fully funded. This may require moving (it usually does).

But some people are successful who attend them..? and admission to those fully-funded programs are so minuscule that I will be waiting years and years, or I can start my training now and help people faster..

 

[Justanothergrad]

But some people are successful who attend them..? and admission to those fully-funded programs are so minuscule that I will be waiting years and years, or I can start my training now and help people faster..

You would be better off getting a masters degree (from a good program) after you account for lost revenue during years of training, massive accrued debt (150,000+ is very likely), and high liklihood of not being able to get an internship. There is a reason people here don't encourage those programs- they're bad investment decisions.

 

[psychyes93]

You would be better off getting a masters degree (from a good program) after you account for lost revenue during years of training, massive accrued debt (150,000+ is very likely), and high liklihood of not being able to get an internship. There is a reason people here don't encourage those programs- they're bad investment decisions.

I don't mind a masters. Where is a good program?

 

[erg923]

But some people are successful who attend them..? and admission to those fully-funded programs are so minuscule that I will be waiting years and years, or I can start my training now and help people faster..

and be in debt up to your eyeballs.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I don't mind a masters. Where is a good program?

I don't know masters programs for mental health as well as I do doctoral programs. I would suggest asking in the masters subforum. This also will depend on your professional goals and interests.

 

[psych.meout]

But some people are successful who attend them..? and admission to those fully-funded programs are so minuscule that I will be waiting years and years, or I can start my training now and help people faster..

Do you want to help people faster or help people better?

You could get a master's in counseling or related discipline and get licensed as a counselor, depending on your state, which would be really nice. Alternatively, you could complete an experimental psych master's degree or get a research-related job to help you get into a funded doctoral program.

There are lots of paths to get into doctoral programs. Sure, it may not be immediate gratification, but you might be more fulfilled in the long run.

 

[smalltownpsych]

You can have a career going to one of those schools, but there are a lot of better options. Most students in your situation are lacking the requisite research experience for the fully funded Ph.D. option. There are ways of getting that is experience and thus saving yourself a lot of difficulties down the road.

 

[Istilldontknow]

I wouldnt recommned attending any for profit schools. What are your stats? Whats your main goal as a clinician? A masters level counselor may be a better option

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I cannot recommend any of those programs because they are expensive, have poor outcome numbers, and qualitatively I have not been impressed by their graduates (based on CVs I've reviewed over the years for internship/fellowship/faculty positions).

1. What are your goals in regard to a career?
2. Why a doctorate and not a masters?

 

[deleted343839]

But some people are successful who attend them..?

You're talking about some long odds, especially if you plan to remain in California. Don't deliberately put yourself on the wrong side of probability.

 

[psych.meout]

You're talking about some long odds, especially if you plan to remain in California. Don't deliberately put yourself on the wrong side of probability.

This is the best advice in this thread, because it has numerous, critical applications and causes trouble for a number of people without it.

I think so many people don't understand probability and statistics very well. They think they are going to be one of the outliers who, say, attends a mostly unfunded program, but will be one of the very few who actually gets funding, gets matched to a really good internship (despite the publicly available statistics on every clinical program) and post-doc, passes the EPPP and gets licensed on the first try (again, despite what program stats indicate), and gets offered their dream job in their dream location (regardless of market saturation, reputation of their program/internship/etc., and personal training and experience).

Other times, it's simply a matter of generally poor mathematical comprehension. They are told or research the high debt of many of these unfunded programs, especially freestanding professional schools, and the pay ranges for practicing psychologists. They don't really understand what $100,000 to $200,000 of student loan debt is really like, what compound interest does to it, how even income-based repayments affect net income and lifestyle, the true access and availability of loan forgiveness programs, etc.

 

[MCParent]

They don't really understand what $100,000 to $200,000 of student loan debt is really like

I asked about debt in a study I did on upper level psych udergrads intending to apply to graduate school (these particular data were not published in the final paper; actually the general ignorance of the sample tanked the ability to look at the hypotheses we really wanted to get at!).

I gave them a scenario where they were to imagine having $200,000 in debt, and a $50,000 income. How long would it take to pay back the debt?

A substantial portion said four years.

 

[deleted760483]

Out of curiosity, what were your GPA and GRE scores?

My cumulative GPA was 3.55 which was mainly a result of my freshman GPA being about a 2. It was 3.8 + from sophomore year on. My GRE was 1140 with a 5.5 on the written section. High school and freshman year of college I had no interest in academics and that limited my options.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I've seen plenty of folks get into great fully funded R1 programs with those scores. Some of it was fit, other parts was having done research, some of it was just broadening the search regionally, etc.

 

[chicandtoughness]

[deleted]

 

[psychyes93]

Do you want to help people faster or help people better?

You could get a master's in counseling or related discipline and get licensed as a counselor, depending on your state, which would be really nice. Alternatively, you could complete an experimental psych master's degree or get a research-related job to help you get into a funded doctoral program.

There are lots of paths to get into doctoral programs. Sure, it may not be immediate gratification, but you might be more fulfilled in the long run.

I don't know which schools offer a master's in counseling, and the differences between counseling and MFT baffles me...
At this point, I am losing steam and want to get started on my career already..a couple of years out of undergrad..

 

[psychyes93]

Reputable programs in Southern California include:

UCLA's Clinical Psychology Ph.D.
USC's Clinical Science Ph.D.
UC Santa Barbara's Counseling, Clinical, & School Psychology Ph.D.
UC Riverside's School Psychology Ph.D.
SDSU/UCSD's Clinical Psychology Ph.D.


Programs that are in Southern California and are less competitive, but still more reputable than ones you listed would be:
Pepperdine's Psy.D.
Loma Linda Psy.D. or Ph.D.
Biola Psy.D. or Ph.D.
Fuller Theological Seminary Psy.D. or Ph.D.


and I would absolutely stay away from:
Any Alliant, Argosy, Antioch, etc
Anything for "professional psychology" in the title
Pacifica
University of LaVerne

I am unsure of your interests so I included all licensable doctoral programs that I knew of in Southern California, whether clinical, counseling, or school. If you're interested only in counseling, you may have a better chance at being accepted to a master's level licensable program, and it would really depend on what you'd like to do after.

UCLA and USC have excellent MSW programs with state stipends if you participate in certain programs (e.g. with CPS or DMH) as does CSU Los Angeles. Pretty much any of the California State University campuses will have MFT departments, I just don't know how reputable they are (CSULA, CSU Northridge, CSU Long Beach, CSU Dominguez Hills, San Diego State University, CSU Fullerton, CSU Channel Islands, CSU Bakersfield).

I am extremely family oriented and truly believe my mental health would plummet if I had to leave California for more than a year or two. I was told early on that wanting a doctoral degree, especially a licensable one, would not be feasible if I was geographically limited, so I planned around that to ensure I stayed, but this resulted in extra time. I had to take more time to retake the GRE twice to be up to an acceptable standard to the UC system and I earned a master's degree to obtain some publications and complete a thesis. So, time was my sacrifice. I think everyone has to make one, be it time, or moving away from family, but I wouldn't let that sacrifice be attending a poor program just to get going, as the consequences of that (financially, and career satisfaction wise, and then financially again as a result of difficulty finding a job) are just too severe. There are success stories from every professional program, but statistically, it's just better not to fight an uphill battle. I'd suggest attending one of those mid-range programs I mentioned if you're absolutely 100% set on getting a doctoral degree in Southern California (they are very expensive though), or, obtaining a licensable master's degree if you want to get started immediately, and if you can take some time, then I'd suggest doing a terminal experimental master's degree and applying to the higher tier, funded programs.

Good luck!!!

Thanks so much, this helped me a lot!! What masters degree did you complete? and did you focus on counseling or research based?

 

[Grenth]

I don't know which schools offer a master's in counseling, and the differences between counseling and MFT baffles me...
At this point, I am losing steam and want to get started on my career already..a couple of years out of undergrad.

Based on this you more than likely don't want to shoot towards a doctoral level degree, because you'd then be 5-7 years out from getting your career going. Unless you start a master's and find you love research like I did 🙂
In my state, the differences between a master's degree at a CACREP counseling program and a master's degree at a COAMFTE MFT program are the counseling students have to take a career counseling class and learn more intensely about individual focused theories and the MFT students had courses in family systems theory and couple and sex therapy. My experience has been the LMFT/LMHC licenses lead to many of the same jobs at least at the entry level. I have an MFT degree and some of my classmates took the career class and are dual licensed as LMFTS/LMHCs. I know CA can be kind of odd as far as adhering more to their own state organizations than national organizations so you'll want to check and see what applies there.

 

[deleted760483]

I've seen plenty of folks get into great fully funded R1 programs with those scores. Some of it was fit, other parts was having done research, some of it was just broadening the search regionally, etc.

I apparently wasn't one of them, though I did only apply to a limited geographic area due to family.

 

[EmotRegulation]

Also, to the OP, check out this website which has a lot of information, and great links to other types of programs too: http://clinicalpsychgradschool.org/

 

[bmedclinic]

No one is going to advise/encourage you to go any of those types of programs.

and you'll have a much harder time getting hired once you're out of those programs, IF you successfully complete them.

 

[chicandtoughness]

I don't know which schools offer a master's in counseling...

Click on the two links in my post above. They bring up all of the accredited schools in the nation and you can narrow down your search by geography there.

 

[MJPsych]

Just to throw out a dissenting opinion, I am an Argosy graduate and am very happy with the course of my career. I passed comps on the first try, got my second choice of accredited internships, had a post-doc secured halfway through my pre-doc, passed the EPPP on the first try, and am starting my dream job next month. I feel the quality of training I received was very high. I cannot dispute the high cost of the program, it is very pricey. Personally I was in a situation where I didn't have any other options, I applied to a number of better funded programs and didn't get in, I assume because my overall GPA was a bit lower than ideal, as were my GRE scores. I really didn't start taking school seriously until junior year of college and pretty much had no career aspirations before then. If you have "better" options absolutely consider them, but I have a much higher opinion of Arogsy than many here.

That being said, I am an Argosy Twin Cities grad so I couldn't speak at all the what your experience in California would be. I don't really know how similar they are.

I just want to throw my info out here so that CWard isn't alone in representing an Argosy program. I hail from Argosy in Phoenix. I also passed my comps the first try, I received my first choice internship at an APA accredited program, had no issue with post doc, passed the EPPP by a fair margin my first try, and am currently in a position where I am getting my loans paid back in a small city making a competitive salary. I also received good training and there is no question that these types of programs are pricey. I had personal reasons for choosing this program over others ones that I got into, and I agree that generally there are more cost effective options and that the quality of training can vary. Having been on the inside of a program such as this, I will say that there are good students and "not so good" students that get accepted given the nature of these types of programs. If you are of the latter category your career path will definitely be impacted. I think the worst thing that for profit schools do (outside of debt) is give the not so good students a false hope that they can be successful as a psychologist. Oh, and in case anyone wants to ask about my GPA/GRE scores...I received a full scholarship to public university and (which I chose over a partial scholarship to Emory University, saving up all my debt for grad school🙂) and had a GPA of 3.8 and I honestly don't remember my GRE scores.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Hate on the school, don't hate on the students. 😉 I am glad that students from these programs are willing to post here because it can be a fairly hostile environment. I also went to an expensive program and have exceedingly high debt. I often post here to warn students from the path that I took. I also think that these schools can be dangerous to the field and need to be reigned in by APA. That's a tall order though because of the money streaming from the student loan program. If you fund it they will come.

 

[deleted760483]

I just want to throw my info out here so that CWard isn't alone in representing an Argosy program. I hail from Argosy in Phoenix. I also passed my comps the first try, I received my first choice internship at an APA accredited program, had no issue with post doc, passed the EPPP by a fair margin my first try, and am currently in a position where I am getting my loans paid back in a small city making a competitive salary. I also received good training and there is no question that these types of programs are pricey. I had personal reasons for choosing this program over others ones that I got into, and I agree that generally there are more cost effective options and that the quality of training can vary. Having been on the inside of a program such as this, I will say that there are good students and "not so good" students that get accepted given the nature of these types of programs. If you are of the latter category your career path will definitely be impacted. I think the worst thing that for profit schools do (outside of debt) is give the not so good students a false hope that they can be successful as a psychologist. Oh, and in case anyone wants to ask about my GPA/GRE scores...I received a full scholarship to public university and (which I chose over a partial scholarship to Emory University, saving up all my debt for grad school🙂) and had a GPA of 3.8 and I honestly don't remember my GRE scores.

I agree, there were a few (but really a small proportion overall) students in my program that I couldn't see succeeding in our field and didn't totally understand how they got accepted in the first place. But that really didn't have much impact on me as an individual. I went to class, did what I needed to do, and didn't worry about other people in the program and it worked out great.

 

[Mellowmish]

Just to throw out a dissenting opinion, I am an Argosy graduate and am very happy with the course of my career. I passed comps on the first try, got my second choice of accredited internships, had a post-doc secured halfway through my pre-doc, passed the EPPP on the first try, and am starting my dream job next month. I feel the quality of training I received was very high. I cannot dispute the high cost of the program, it is very pricey. Personally I was in a situation where I didn't have any other options, I applied to a number of better funded programs and didn't get in, I assume because my overall GPA was a bit lower than ideal, as were my GRE scores. I really didn't start taking school seriously until junior year of college and pretty much had no career aspirations before then. If you have "better" options absolutely consider them, but I have a much higher opinion of Arogsy than many here.

That being said, I am an Argosy Twin Cities grad so I couldn't speak at all the what your experience in California would be. I don't really know how similar they are.

How much debt are you in?