anyone else facing dismissal from med school and appealing it?

[hotchocolate]

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Getting a lawyer for representation is a catch 22 situation.

- On the one hand if you don't get a lawyer, you're screwed because you don't really know how to represent yourself.

- On the other hand, if you do get a lawyer and the school knows about it, the may really emphasize negative things in your student record to really bring out the worst in you. Med schools will go out of their way to cover their asses, even so far as faking documentation to make you look guilty.

Is this true? Man, I really hope not.

 

[Taurus]

You would be lucky if the school fakes up documents. They would be in huge amount of doo-doo for that ethical breach. No, they're not that stupid.

They're more subtle. It'll be how they phrase your dean's letter or calls to residency directors giving them a heads up. When you read a sentence from your dean's letter, it may look completely innocent to you, but to the residency director who has been doing this for years they know what the red flags are.

That's why I emphasize that you don't want to appear like a trouble-maker. Accept responsibility and make steps to change.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread.

 

[DickyV]

Getting a lawyer for representation is a catch 22 situation.

- On the one hand if you don't get a lawyer, you're screwed because you don't really know how to represent yourself.

- On the other hand, if you do get a lawyer and the school knows about it, the may really emphasize negative things in your student record to really bring out the worst in you. Med schools will go out of their way to cover their asses, even so far as faking documentation to make you look guilty.

Better to look guilty and stay in med school than look perfectly innocent and get kicked out.

 

[hotchocolate]

Taurus, DickyV: actually, i don't think submissiveness is the best tactic in my situation, however i appreciate you giving your 2 cents.

 

[notdeadyet]

They're more subtle. It'll be how they phrase your dean's letter or calls to residency directors giving them a heads up. When you read a sentence from your dean's letter, it may look completely innocent to you, but to the residency director who has been doing this for years they know what the red flags are.

What is "the dean" folks are talking about when they refer to dean's letter? Which dean does it come from? Is this the dean of admissions, or are they only involved on the recruiting side?

 

[Sartre79]

You would be lucky if the school fakes up documents. They would be in huge amount of doo-doo for that ethical breach. No, they're not that stupid.

They're more subtle. It'll be how they phrase your dean's letter or calls to residency directors giving them a heads up. When you read a sentence from your dean's letter, it may look completely innocent to you, but to the residency director who has been doing this for years they know what the red flags are.

That's why I emphasize that you don't want to appear like a trouble-maker. Accept responsibility and make steps to change.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread.

Don't they write up fake documents while flying in their black helicoptors?

 

[GuzzyRon]

I made a D and an F in two of my first year courses. The promotions committee granted me permission to remediate the courses by taking reexaminations. I passed one of the exams (the class I made an F in). The F was replaced with a C. According to the first year promotions guidelines, I should be promoted to the first year as long as I have no F, no more than one D, and a cumulative GPA no lower than a 2.0. I meet this criteria but the promotions committe did not pass me into the 2nd year bc they say I did not get a high enough score for the class I made a D in. I am currently appealing this decision. Can anyone give me advice as far as what more I can do? Thanks!

PS If anyone has successful appeal stories, please share!

I don't know what to tell you but one, you should go before the appeals cmte with a copy of the promotion guidelines to point out the fact that you've met the conditions for promotion to second year as spelled out in the guideline. Secondly, appeal to the cmte to disregard some arbitrary "high enough score" that you supposedly fell short of but that they should go by the official grade. Politely remind them that a D grade is a D grade and that there are no 'high' or 'low' D's.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Medguy123, why did you double-post this in the Osteopathic forum? If anyone is going to give you credible advice, I think we need to know whether we're talking about an AOA or an LCME school. If it's AOA, I have no idea. If it's LCME, I'd say your school has a pretty liberal policy. At my school, no D's are permitted - period. D's can be remediated if the instructor and promotion committee chose to grant you that option, but F's cannot be remediated - if you fail, you're repeating. At any rate, I think remediation is a privelege, not a right, so unfortunately I think you have little grounds for appeal. I do wish you the best of luck, however.

 

[medguy123]

I don't know what to tell you but one, you should go before the appeals cmte with a copy of the promotion guidelines to point out the fact that you've met the conditions for promotion to second year as spelled out in the guideline. Secondly, appeal to the cmte to disregard some arbitrary "high enough score" that you supposedly fell short of but that they should go by the official grade. Politely remind them that a D grade is a D grade and that there are no 'high' or 'low' D's.[/qu

The reason why they let me remediate the class with an F was because I had a special circumstance. In that class, I made C's on two exams and completely bombed the third exam. Anyhow, on the re-exam, I passed it with a B, and the promotions committee replaced the F with a C.

However, in the class I made a D on, the professor did everything she could to not help me. I had a month to prepare for the exam (at the same time, I had an internship I had to attend). I asked her what I needed to know, if I can look at old exams, and if I could have a tutor. I consistenly emailed her, and was finally able to get a tutor 1 week prior to the exam. She would also not let me look at old exams, and put all the questions I missed on the old exams.

Also, whether the school is liberal or not, the guidelines say that I should be promoted as long as I have no F, no more than 1 D, and a GPA of 2.0 or higher.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Nevertheless, double-posting is not permitted.

 

[medguy123]

Nevertheless, double-posting is not permitted.

I realize that now,and the administration has already taken that post off of here.

 

[hotchocolate]

medguy:

you clearly already know that they are violating their own guidelines by not promoting you, but it is intimidating to be one person against a committee and school that has the power to affect your career in ways you don't want them to. So, I would first suggest that if you can, get a lawyer. At the least he will be able to help you represent yourself confidently, since you already know how they are violating their own rules, and at the most he can be at the meeting with you, which could potentially show the school that you are serious about this. Contact your bar association, or if you have any friends or family who know good lawyers, ask for some references. It may cost money but it's worth it. Also find out if you can have an advocate present at the meeting. If you decide not to get a lawyer, then you must build up your own defense and be your own advocate (and if you have a lot of free time on your hands, you might be able to do this and do it well). I would suggest that you do what someone posted earlier which is bring a copy of the promotions guideline to the committee meeting, also bring a copy of your transcript, make a copy for each person on the committee preferably, and remind them that you meet the criteria for promotion and that there is no high or low D. I'm not sure if remorse would help in this case because it seems that they are blatantly disregarding their own procedures and think that they can get away with it. Seriously, get a lawyer if at all possible.

 

[medguy123]

medguy:

you clearly already know that they are violating their own guidelines by not promoting you, but it is intimidating to be one person against a committee and school that has the power to affect your career in ways you don't want them to. So, I would first suggest that if you can, get a lawyer. At the least he will be able to help you represent yourself confidently, since you already know how they are violating their own rules, and at the most he can be at the meeting with you, which could potentially show the school that you are serious about this. Contact your bar association, or if you have any friends or family who know good lawyers, ask for some references. It may cost money but it's worth it. Also find out if you can have an advocate present at the meeting. If you decide not to get a lawyer, then you must build up your own defense and be your own advocate (and if you have a lot of free time on your hands, you might be able to do this and do it well). I would suggest that you do what someone posted earlier which is bring a copy of the promotions guideline to the committee meeting, also bring a copy of your transcript, make a copy for each person on the committee preferably, and remind them that you meet the criteria for promotion and that there is no high or low D. I'm not sure if remorse would help in this case because it seems that they are blatantly disregarding their own procedures and think that they can get away with it. Seriously, get a lawyer if at all possible.

I got this response from them:
I wish to clarify an apparent misconception you have.
You had not met the requirements for promotion because you had more than
one D originally. Your remedial program required you to pass all
courses, not just one. Because you did not fulfill those stated
requirements, you cannot claim to be eligible for promotion because you
have now only one

Also, I wanted to know if you were successful in your appeal and how you went about this. Thank you

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I got this response from them:
I wish to clarify an apparent misconception you have.
You had not met the requirements for promotion because you had more than
one D originally. Your remedial program required you to pass all
courses, not just one. Because you did not fulfill those stated
requirements, you cannot claim to be eligible for promotion because you
have now only one

Also, I wanted to know if you were successful in your appeal and how you went about this. Thank you

Makes sense to me. If you don't comply with the remedial program, I can't see where they can really let you move on. Also, as NonTrad pointed out in the DO thread, I don't think a remedied F changed to a C counts the same as a true C, so no you don't technically meet the required promotions requirements even with the improved grade. As of the end of the year, you hadn't met the promotions requirement. They gave you a second chance, and you didn't succeed. To me, it seems like their hands are tied.

 

[medguy123]

Makes sense to me. If you don't comply with the remedial program, I can't see where they can really let you move on. Also, as NonTrad pointed out in the DO thread, I don't think a remedied F changed to a C counts the same as a true C, so no you don't technically meet the required promotions requirements even with the improved grade. As of the end of the year, you hadn't met the promotions requirement. They gave you a second chance, and you didn't succeed. To me, it seems like their hands are tied.

Yeah, I can see the point, but if anyone has any advise to give me, it would be great help. Also, the F was remediated with a real C on the final transcript.

 

[Blade28]

Yeah, I can see the point, but if anyone has any advise to give me, it would be great help. Also, the F was remediated with a real C on the final transcript.

Maybe I'm misreading what that note from your school stated, but isn't it suggesting you needed to pass BOTH classes (the ones where you earned an F and D)? You remediated the F to a C, but what happened to the D?

I know you had stated that "no more than one D" was acceptable - are you sure about this? Doesn't sound like a passing grade to me.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yeah, I can see the point, but if anyone has any advise to give me, it would be great help. Also, the F was remediated with a real C on the final transcript.

Well, since each school has a different policy, I don't think anyone can offer you much help. At my school, you have to remediate any grade below a C in the summer after MS1 to move on. If you don't successfully pass the remediation exam with a grade of 70% or higher, you redo the year. I would be surprised that any school would let a student move on who hadn't successfully remediated their classes.

And again, I still don't think you fit the school policy of being able to move on if you have no more than 1 D and a 2.0 or higher because you really had a D and an F. The fact that you remediated the F doesn't totally take it out of consideration.

At least you're not facing dismissal like the op.

 

[medguy123]

Maybe I'm misreading what that note from your school stated, but isn't it suggesting you needed to pass BOTH classes (the ones where you earned an F and D)? You remediated the F to a C, but what happened to the D?

I know you had stated that "no more than one D" was acceptable - are you sure about this? Doesn't sound like a passing grade to me.

The D remained bc I did not score a C+ or higher. also, I am positive about one D being acceptable for promotions...I made a B on the exam where I made an F in. The professor in that class was very helpful...however, in the other class, the professor was a total bitch. she replied to my email 4-5 days late, offered no help, when I asked for a tutor, it took her 3 weeks to get me one. I asked if I could look at old exams, and she told me no. On the remedial exam, she put all of the old exam questions I missed previously.

 

[medguy123]

Well, since each school has a different policy, I don't think anyone can offer you much help. At my school, you have to remediate any grade below a C in the summer after MS1 to move on. If you don't successfully pass the remediation exam with a grade of 70% or higher, you redo the year. I would be surprised that any school would let a student move on who hadn't successfully remediated their classes.

And again, I still don't think you fit the school policy of being able to move on if you have no more than 1 D and a 2.0 or higher because you really had a D and an F. The fact that you remediated the F doesn't totally take it out of consideration.

At least you're not facing dismissal like the op.

I agree that at least I'm not facing dismissal. Still, it is a stressful point in my life because they're making me retake the class for the course I failed and remediated with a B on the exam. Arghhh...I know I put myself in this position, but I had depression during my second semester. I didn't really know what was wrong with me at the time, but I had a really hard time functioning in school and other aspects of my life...sigh

 

[MattD]

The D remained bc I did not score a C+ or higher. also, I am positive about one D being acceptable for promotions...I made a B on the exam where I made an F in. The professor in that class was very helpful...however, in the other class, the professor was a total bitch. she replied to my email 4-5 days late, offered no help, when I asked for a tutor, it took her 3 weeks to get me one. I asked if I could look at old exams, and she told me no. On the remedial exam, she put all of the old exam questions I missed previously.

It makes sense to me that she would put the questions you missed earlier on the test.... she knows you know the answer to the ones you got right, why test you on those things again? Basically she was giving you the chance to sort of raise those other tests up by giving you a second chance on the ones you missed. Did you not go back and study the things you were weak on initially? Studying what you already know doesn't tend to raise scores.....

 

[medguy123]

It makes sense to me that she would put the questions you missed earlier on the test.... she knows you know the answer to the ones you got right, why test you on those things again? Basically she was giving you the chance to sort of raise those other tests up by giving you a second chance on the ones you missed. Did you not go back and study the things you were weak on initially? Studying what you already know doesn't tend to raise scores.....

I studied EVERYTHING! The reason I wanted to go back and look at old exams was to see what my weak points were...obv she did not allow me to do so

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I studied EVERYTHING! The reason I wanted to go back and look at old exams was to see what my weak points were...obv she did not allow me to do so

She probably didn't allow you to just because she planned on reusing the questions. My school is like that -- we can generally never look at old exams regardless of the issue. I guess once they write a good question, they're going to milk it for all it's worth. 🙄

So have you sought treatment for the depression? Do you have the support you need if you do in fact have to repeat the year? Not helpful at all, but from what I've seen, people pretty much hit a brick wall when they decide to take on the promotions people, so you might get more on focusing on your mood and not fighting this to the bitter end.

 

[medguy123]

She probably didn't allow you to just because she planned on reusing the questions. My school is like that -- we can generally never look at old exams regardless of the issue. I guess once they write a good question, they're going to milk it for all it's worth. 🙄

So have you sought treatment for the depression? Do you have the support you need if you do in fact have to repeat the year? Not helpful at all, but from what I've seen, people pretty much hit a brick wall when they decide to take on the promotions people, so you might get more on focusing on your mood and not fighting this to the bitter end.

Thanks. I have been taking meds and going to therapy for almost 2 months...it's been great, and I have more motivation, drive, and energy to do well. I was doing well in school prior to my second semester...Trust me, depression can hit anyone! Anyhow, I really do not want to give up on my appeal until the end..worse come to worse, I repeat the year.
I've had friends who had to face tougher academic challenges (such as getting accepted into medical school) I was sure this would never happen, but she got in this year!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Thanks. I have been taking meds and going to therapy for almost 2 months...it's been great, and I have more motivation, drive, and energy to do well. I was doing well in school prior to my second semester...Trust me, depression can hit anyone! Anyhow, I really do not want to give up on my appeal until the end..worse come to worse, I repeat the year.

Medguy, you may be getting closer to something that might actually help your appeal. DocBagel has been giving you some very sound advice, and I hope that I have, too.

I don't enjoy being right in this case, but the response from your committee was precisely what I expected: the 'promotion rule' applies only to your original end-of-semester grade - once you took an 'offer in compromise' from your committee and tried to remediate, your fate is entirely within their hands. I think you should eliminate entirely any ideas of challenging the committee's authority from your appeal - you'll lose, clearly, from what they've told you.

I have a great deal of sympathy for you. My adjustment to medical school in the first semester was extremely difficult - I lost tremendous amounts of weight and needed some help to get back-on-track. I'm not on any admissions committee, but I've been around for a very long time (including a stint working in medical education as a manager) and I'm sure I have a pretty good idea of how the committee will view you - I'm 45 and probably about the same age as your panel members. Dr. Bagel is also a non-trad with a long history in the business and legal professions prior to medical school.

What still concerns me is that I'm not hearing you take full responsibility for your own actions. You refer to one instructor as a "bitch" because she took 4-5 days to respond to your e-mail. Horrors! And she had the nerve to take three weeks to find you a tutor? Fancy that - in the summer, I'm sure the campus was just crawling with eligible tutors. And she gave you the test questions that you missed? Wow. As Bagel said, at our school - if you're even given a chance to remediate - you're never allowed to see a test, no instructor is under any obligation to help you during a remediation study period, and the dean's office is committed to helping you find a tutor only during the regular session - not during a remediation study period. Any remediation exam at our school is comprehensive over the whole semester and likely has a bunch of essay questions, so you'd better know your stuff - all of it. Remediations are not tutoring sessions, they're a last-ditch privelege to prove that you've managed to master the material - most likely by using your own wits and finding your own tutors.

If you go to any appeal whining about how you were mis-treated, I'd predict rapid failure. The bottom line is: you had the same chance to pass that everyone else did, and you blew it. You had a chance to remediate both classes, and you blew that, too. I guarantee you that there were other first-year students suffering from severe depression and worse - it's quite common - and I'd wager some of them found a way to pass. And, if you're going to have the attributes necessary to be a physician, you need to take responsibility for your own behavior. That's what medical training is like - and your evaluations are going to be more and more subjective as you progress in training. If you want to be the attending physician - if you want to be the "engineer who drives the train" - you need to face the fact that, if the wheels fall off the train, you're going to get blamed for it no matter who was supposed to check the wheels, because you were supposed to be watching that person, too. Welcome to medicine - we won't get paid the big bucks for being cute.

Same thing with depression. While I have great sympathy for a depressed student, when I was in difficulty I was suffering greatly but I forced myself to study no matter what and my grades were not affected. Physicians also get severe depression at times - they also develop drug and alcohol problems - but they're held absolutely accountable for their actions, no matter what the cause. If you can take the same attitude with your appeal - take total responsibility for your failure but be willing to discuss what steps you've taken with medication and therapy and, if need be, allow the committee to talk to your therapist - and you'll be showing the professional behavior required of a physician. Showing some true professionalism might actually change some hearts and minds on your committee - otherwise, I'd say you're pretty well done at this point. It's your last hope.

If that doesn't work - well, I can't imagine the heartbreak that will be for you, and I am sympathetic. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but perhaps a little less so if you can accept that the committee wanted to act in your best interests, even if you can't fully agree with them. You aren't being dismissed from school - and one additional year in a 7-10 year training period is not the end of the world. The committee knows that they're forcing you to re-take all your classes and pay an additional year of tuition and living expenses - I'm sure they don't take that step lightly. But, it may just be that when they look at the overall picture of your performance that they just don't feel that it is in your best interest to move on yet.

But, again, I think a more physician-like acceptance of responsibility might be the only chance you have for them to see you in a new light. I certainly wish you the best, and good luck.

 

[medguy123]

Medguy, you may be getting closer to something that might actually help your appeal. DocBagel has been giving you some very sound advice, and I hope that I have, too.

I don't enjoy being right in this case, but the response from your committee was precisely what I expected: the 'promotion rule' applies only to your original end-of-semester grade - once you took an 'offer in compromise' from your committee and tried to remediate, your fate is entirely within their hands. I think you should eliminate entirely any ideas of challenging the committee's authority from your appeal - you'll lose, clearly, from what they've told you.

I have a great deal of sympathy for you. My adjustment to medical school in the first semester was extremely difficult - I lost tremendous amounts of weight and needed some help to get back-on-track. I'm not on any admissions committee, but I've been around for a very long time (including a stint working in medical education as a manager) and I'm sure I have a pretty good idea of how the committee will view you - I'm 45 and probably about the same age as your panel members. Dr. Bagel is also a non-trad with a long history in the business and legal professions prior to medical school.

What still concerns me is that I'm not hearing you take full responsibility for your own actions. You refer to one instructor as a "bitch" because she took 4-5 days to respond to your e-mail. Horrors! And she had the nerve to take three weeks to find you a tutor? Fancy that - in the summer, I'm sure the campus was just crawling with eligible tutors. And she gave you the test questions that you missed? Wow. As Bagel said, at our school - if you're even given a chance to remediate - you're never allowed to see a test, no instructor is under any obligation to help you during a remediation study period, and the dean's office is committed to helping you find a tutor only during the regular session - not during a remediation study period. Any remediation exam at our school is comprehensive over the whole semester and likely has a bunch of essay questions, so you'd better know your stuff - all of it. Remediations are not tutoring sessions, they're a last-ditch privelege to prove that you've managed to master the material - most likely by using your own wits and finding your own tutors.

If you go to any appeal whining about how you were mis-treated, I'd predict rapid failure. The bottom line is: you had the same chance to pass that everyone else did, and you blew it. You had a chance to remediate both classes, and you blew that, too. I guarantee you that there were other first-year students suffering from severe depression and worse - it's quite common - and I'd wager some of them found a way to pass. And, if you're going to have the attributes necessary to be a physician, you need to take responsibility for your own behavior. That's what medical training is like - and your evaluations are going to be more and more subjective as you progress in training. If you want to be the attending physician - if you want to be the "engineer who drives the train" - you need to face the fact that, if the wheels fall off the train, you're going to get blamed for it no matter who was supposed to check the wheels, because you were supposed to be watching that person, too. Welcome to medicine - we won't get paid the big bucks for being cute.

Same thing with depression. While I have great sympathy for a depressed student, when I was in difficulty I was suffering greatly but I forced myself to study no matter what and my grades were not affected. Physicians also get severe depression at times - they also develop drug and alcohol problems - but they're held absolutely accountable for their actions, no matter what the cause. If you can take the same attitude with your appeal - take total responsibility for your failure but be willing to discuss what steps you've taken with medication and therapy and, if need be, allow the committee to talk to your therapist - and you'll be showing the professional behavior required of a physician. Showing some true professionalism might actually change some hearts and minds on your committee - otherwise, I'd say you're pretty well done at this point. It's your last hope.

If that doesn't work - well, I can't imagine the heartbreak that will be for you, and I am sympathetic. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but perhaps a little less so if you can accept that the committee wanted to act in your best interests, even if you can't fully agree with them. You aren't being dismissed from school - and one additional year in a 7-10 year training period is not the end of the world. The committee knows that they're forcing you to re-take all your classes and pay an additional year of tuition and living expenses - I'm sure they don't take that step lightly. But, it may just be that when they look at the overall picture of your performance that they just don't feel that it is in your best interest to move on yet.

But, again, I think a more physician-like acceptance of responsibility might be the only chance you have for them to see you in a new light. I certainly wish you the best, and good luck.

Thank you so much! Actually, I have taken complete responsibility for my actions as well as an explanation for why I was not doing well. Also, I did not mention anything negative about anybody...most importantly, I did not mention anything about that teacher who was a bitch...wish me luck!!!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Thank you so much! Actually, I have taken complete responsibility for my actions as well as an explanation for why I was not doing well. Also, I did not mention anything negative about anybody...most importantly, I did not mention anything about that teacher who was a bitch...wish me luck!!!

Good luck! Remember, it'll be fine either way - you're still on your way to becoming a physician. Let us know what happens!