Anyone else get cheesed off when doctors ask "you really wanna do this? I wouldn't do it again"

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Dr. Stalker

Dr. Stalker

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Having shadowed many physicians and gotten to just hang out with residents/attendings, any other premeds get irritated when doctors ask you things like "oh why do you want to do this? This stinks!", "I wouldn't do this again if I could, too much work for too little pay", or the classic "If i could do it all over again, I wouldn't"

I think its just bad advice to give to impressionable young adults who are clearly very interested in the profession; in a humorous setting its fine, but to have doctors openly announce they dislike their job and aren't passionate and wouldn't do this all over again is just disheartening...to me, at least.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
Having shadowed many physicians and gotten to just hang out with residents/attendings, any other premeds get irritated when doctors ask you things like "oh why do you want to do this? This stinks!", "I wouldn't do this again if I could, too much work for too little pay", or the classic "If i could do it all over again, I wouldn't"

I think its just bad advice to give to impressionable young adults who are clearly very interested in the profession; in a humorous setting its fine, but to have doctors openly announce they dislike their job and aren't passionate and wouldn't do this all over again is just disheartening...to me, at least.
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You shadow to gain experience and to learn about what it is to be a doctor logistically (the knowledge of medicine is learned in school). The fact that many doctors are unhappy with their work is one of the most important things you should pick up from shadowing. You want to learn about the profession and people are telling you the truth. You can stick your fingers in your ears and Hum or you can pay attention to what the people who know more than you do are saying.
 
I don't get annoyed by it at all. I think you have to take into consideration what each person says with a grain of salt and come to your own conclusions. Also, especially when I've heard it, it has usually come at a particularly challenging/difficult time (a long day, tough case, something isn't working, etc.), but I haven't met too many doctors that hate what they do.

Also, all the advice for me is invaluable, as being around them and hearing their advice probably saved me $200K in future undergrad debt by helping me to pick a public in-state school vs. a private, out of state.
 
eagles22 said:
You shadow to gain experience and to learn about what it is to be a doctor logistically (the knowledge of medicine is learned in school). The fact that many doctors are unhappy with their work is one of the most important things you should pick up from shadowing. You want to learn about the profession and people are telling you the truth. You can stick your fingers in your ears and Hum or you can pay attention to what the people who know more than you do are saying.
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I agree, its important to see both sides of the coin; not just the magical/fantasy of medicine as life saving, but the day-to-day life of physicians, given this is the career I'm interested in. But still, I wouldn't be so open about it (or at least I think I wouldn't, ask me again in ~10+years when I'm <hopefully> an attending)?
 
True, it may be disheartening to hear, but I wouldn't correlate it with bad advice per se. I don't know the context of the discussion, but if they genuinely don't like their job I'd rather them be honest than lie or sugarcoat it. Wouldn't you, if you're about invest years of your life in the profession?
 
TehTeddy said:
True, it may be disheartening to hear, but I wouldn't correlate it with bad advice per se. I don't know the context of the discussion, but if they genuinely don't like their job I'd rather them be honest than lie or sugarcoat it. Wouldn't you, if you're about invest years of your life in the profession?
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That's a nice way of looking at it. Yeah, I don't want to be lied to as a shadow, but I do find it rather odd when an attending repeatedly asked me (everytime I'd come in, 2x a week) "you still wanna do this? okay..." but hey, at least I got some dope and realistic experience out of it.
 
When I'm shadowing I generally welcome any kind of discussion about the job and how they feel about it. Take the bad with the good. You just kinda nod and throw in the occasional "oh wow that's crazy". It's outside of that setting that I get annoyed. Like when I'm seeing a doctor for personal health, the conversation with the staff or the doc typically approaches "what do you do" at some point, and then I get a barrage of comments about how hellish residency is and the red tape and healthcare and it's so awful and blah blah.
 
The doctor who became my mentor told me he would do it all over again and has absolutely no regrets (except he'd change some things in his personal life). Most people my age complain about it, but they've never worked another job so it's the "grass is greener" mentality. Those I know who switched from a different career love it.
 
Currently scribing for a doc who tells me every single shift to either do something with my finance major or do dentistry/oral surgery if I am intent on going into healthcare (for the cash). I have scribed for and shadowed multiple docs with similar sentiments. Sometimes you just gotta laugh it off when the ortho driving a 2017 tricked out ford raptor while working 8-2 four days a week is saying "don't do it!" If I can't afford a ferrari and have to deal with a bit more red tape, then so be it. Maybe it's not like the good ol' days, but as far as I know, doctors are still helping people and I haven't met one who's starving.

That said, I understand these physicians aren't saying this stuff just for the sake of making sad conversation. Being a doctor clearly isn't for everyone, and I'd like to think that I am pretty aware of most of the negatives.
 
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Well, honesty is important. Why are you shadowing a doctor if not to know their perspective? Their "don't do it" is one data point you should take into account when making your final life decision. That said, how many people have you met in your life who actually like their jobs? I've met very few, but (and take this with a grain of salt because my sample is obviously very biased) all of those lucky few have been doctors.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
Having shadowed many physicians and gotten to just hang out with residents/attendings, any other premeds get irritated when doctors ask you things like "oh why do you want to do this? This stinks!", "I wouldn't do this again if I could, too much work for too little pay", or the classic "If i could do it all over again, I wouldn't"

I think its just bad advice to give to impressionable young adults who are clearly very interested in the profession; in a humorous setting its fine, but to have doctors openly announce they dislike their job and aren't passionate and wouldn't do this all over again is just disheartening...to me, at least.
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Would you rather they lie to you? They are trying to provide you with solid advice- medicine can be a pretty terrible field for anyone without a masochistic streak. They aren't kidding, they are telling you straight up they would not do it again. I'd say half the residents and attendings I've met strongly feel medicine is not a very good profession to be in, and would not do it over again if they had the chance.

I don't even know how I feel about it some days, but most days I'm fine with it. It certainly isn't puppies and rainbows, and many days are pretty damn miserable, but most jobs are. I guess the real thing I'd say to most premeds is, "Look, medicine is just a job, and it's a job you burn most of your youth getting ready to do, only to find it's not all that much different than any other job in the end. It's not all bad, it's not all good, it just is. So if you think you've got some fluffy joy-filled dream world where you're some hero that's saving lives left and right, I'd say you should re-evaluate your priorities, because most likely you'll be doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of dealing with bureaucrats, a little bit of direct patient care, a lot of second-guessing yourself, and a little bit of feeling like you actually made a difference every once in a while.

You're going to kill people, and a lot of the time, you won't know it, and even when you do know it, it'll be something that you couldn't have expected and couldn't have known. You're going to give people some of the worst news of their life, and they're going to remember those words for the rest of their days. And a lot of the time you'll just be spinning your wheels, or helpless in the face of death and disease, or crippled by rules and red tape and endless preauthorizations and subsequent denials. At the end of the day, it's a dirty, tedious, emotionally draining, physically exhausting, difficult, stressful job where the pain flows broad and deep while moments of satisfaction can be few and far between. So hey, you think that's all good, welcome aboard kiddo. If not, I'd seriously rethink your priorities."
 
Mad Jack said:
Would you rather they lie to you? They are trying to provide you with solid advice- medicine can be a pretty terrible field for anyone without a masochistic streak. They aren't kidding, they are telling you straight up they would not do it again. I'd say half the residents and attendings I've met strongly feel medicine is not a very good profession to be in, and would not do it over again if they had the chance.

I don't even know how I feel about it some days, but most days I'm fine with it. It certainly isn't puppies and rainbows, and many days are pretty damn miserable, but most jobs are. I guess the real thing I'd say to most premeds is, "Look, medicine is just a job, and it's a job you burn most of your youth getting ready to do, only to find it's not all that much different than any other job in the end. It's not all bad, it's not all good, it just is. So if you think you've got some fluffy joy-filled dream world where you're some hero that's saving lives left and right, I'd say you should re-evaluate your priorities, because most likely you'll be doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of dealing with bureaucrats, a little bit of direct patient care, a lot of second-guessing yourself, and a little bit of feeling like you actually made a difference every once in a while.

You're going to kill people, and a lot of the time, you won't know it, and even when you do know it, it'll be something that you couldn't have expected and couldn't have known. You're going to give people some of the worst news of their life, and they're going to remember those words for the rest of their days. And a lot of the time you'll just be spinning your wheels, or helpless in the face of death and disease, or crippled by rules and red tape and endless preauthorizations and subsequent denials. At the end of the day, it's a dirty, tedious, emotionally draining, physically exhausting, difficult, stressful job where the pain flows broad and deep while moments of satisfaction can be few and far between. So hey, you think that's all good, welcome aboard kiddo. If not, I'd seriously rethink your priorities."
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I'm not saying I want them to lie to me. However, I think there's a fine line between telling a student the truth vs. telling them this is the worst job in the world and god forbid anyone pursue it. I understand that residency blows and being an attending is certainly tough and rough, but I disagree with telling students "don't ever do this you'll be making the biggest mistake of your life." If they told me that its difficult and a highly demanding job and asked me if I'm up for that, that's a totally different story.
 
bbbcccppp said:
That can only mean one thing unfortunately


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Yep.

After surgery, there were five of us sitting at the table chatting. Both doctors and one PA were divorced. The struggle is real.
 
I am going to be real here. Most people at some point get fed up with their jobs. They may be content with what they are doing, but most jobs weight down on you. You then start thinking about what ifs. It's not just medicine and people will whine because they need an outlet for their frustration. So many jobs have bad organization, bureaucracy, and other nuisances.
 
Mad Jack said:
Would you rather they lie to you? They are trying to provide you with solid advice- medicine can be a pretty terrible field for anyone without a masochistic streak. They aren't kidding, they are telling you straight up they would not do it again. I'd say half the residents and attendings I've met strongly feel medicine is not a very good profession to be in, and would not do it over again if they had the chance.

I don't even know how I feel about it some days, but most days I'm fine with it. It certainly isn't puppies and rainbows, and many days are pretty damn miserable, but most jobs are. I guess the real thing I'd say to most premeds is, "Look, medicine is just a job, and it's a job you burn most of your youth getting ready to do, only to find it's not all that much different than any other job in the end. It's not all bad, it's not all good, it just is. So if you think you've got some fluffy joy-filled dream world where you're some hero that's saving lives left and right, I'd say you should re-evaluate your priorities, because most likely you'll be doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of dealing with bureaucrats, a little bit of direct patient care, a lot of second-guessing yourself, and a little bit of feeling like you actually made a difference every once in a while.

You're going to kill people, and a lot of the time, you won't know it, and even when you do know it, it'll be something that you couldn't have expected and couldn't have known. You're going to give people some of the worst news of their life, and they're going to remember those words for the rest of their days. And a lot of the time you'll just be spinning your wheels, or helpless in the face of death and disease, or crippled by rules and red tape and endless preauthorizations and subsequent denials. At the end of the day, it's a dirty, tedious, emotionally draining, physically exhausting, difficult, stressful job where the pain flows broad and deep while moments of satisfaction can be few and far between. So hey, you think that's all good, welcome aboard kiddo. If not, I'd seriously rethink your priorities."
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And this is why we keep telling young kids to take a longer time getting an education and take a few years off between UG and medical school. Obviously every career has its ups and downs, but I have met more unhappy doctors than, say, engineers. Part of it is getting in too young, part is perspective, part of it is genuine dislike of the field (usually people who did not realize what they were getting into), and part of it is burnout. Drop in salary, late night call, paperwork (and more paperwork), crazy hours, etc. don't help. The doctor I shadowed (who said he would do it all over again), stopped being on call a few years ago (he's past retirement age, so he probably should have stopped even sooner). He said that gave him an additional 20 years of practice. Another friend I shadowed (who tried to talk me out of it), mentioned that I really need to consider how much I'd be on call when I choose residency. It's not something many younger applicants consider, but it has definitely crossed my mind.

I've been in engineering for over 10 years and I know it isn't all roses in a different career. But I'm also well aware that I have a really hard road ahead and I absolutely cannot take that lightly.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
I'm not saying I want them to lie to me. However, I think there's a fine line between telling a student the truth vs. telling them this is the worst job in the world and god forbid anyone pursue it. I understand that residency blows and being an attending is certainly tough and rough, but I disagree with telling students "don't ever do this you'll be making the biggest mistake of your life." If they told me that its difficult and a highly demanding job and asked me if I'm up for that, that's a totally different story.
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If you want it plain and simple, I'll rate it for you.

Difficulty 10/10
Stress 9/10
Value for Time Invested 3/10
Satisfaction 2/10 on a bad day 9/10 on a good day, probably two or three days a month you feel great
Overall Rating 6/10

Would You Recommend this Job to a Friend: No, I feel it would likely be less happy having pursued it than not.
Would You Pursue this Job Again: Yes, but only because I know I would have never felt satisfied had I not. If I knew what I know now, it would be a very difficult decision and I can't say what I would choose because I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see any way but forward.
What is the Worst Thing About This Job: Not being able to do the best things for your patients because of the many barriers to care that exist on every conceivable level. Also, having patients that are noncompliant and literally killing themselves while you can do nothing but watch, which is a great number of patients.
What is the Best Thing About This Job: The days when you actually feel like you made a difference. There aren't many of those, most of the time it's just by-the-numbers.
What Other Job Would You Pursue: NP, PA, PhD in psychology.
What Job Would You Encourage Others to Pursue: I don't know, I'm not them.
 
Mad Jack said:
If you want it plain and simple, I'll rate it for you.

Difficulty 10/10
Stress 9/10
Value for Time Invested 3/10
Satisfaction 2/10 on a bad day 9/10 on a good day, probably two or three days a month you feel great
Overall Rating 6/10

Would You Recommend this Job to a Friend: No, I feel it would likely be less happy having pursued it than not.
Would You Pursue this Job Again: Yes, but only because I know I would have never felt satisfied had I not. If I knew what I know now, it would be a very difficult decision and I can't say what I would choose because I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see any way but forward.
What is the Worst Thing About This Job: Not being able to do the best things for your patients because of the many barriers to care that exist on every conceivable level. Also, having patients that are noncompliant and literally killing themselves while you can do nothing but watch, which is a great number of patients.
What is the Best Thing About This Job: The days when you actually feel like you made a difference. There aren't many of those, most of the time it's just by-the-numbers.
What Other Job Would You Pursue: NP, PA, PhD in psychology.
What Job Would You Encourage Others to Pursue: I don't know, I'm not them.
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I can't speak from experience, but from attendings I got to work with that would tell me how hard it is and point out all of the worst things you listed, that's still fine. But when I tell them despite all that I'm in this for the long run, I don't think its appropriate to continue talking down the career and "horribleness" of it. Agree with you on all the points you listed, however.
 
Mad Jack said:
If you want it plain and simple, I'll rate it for you.

Difficulty 10/10
Stress 9/10
Value for Time Invested 3/10
Satisfaction 2/10 on a bad day 9/10 on a good day, probably two or three days a month you feel great
Overall Rating 6/10

Would You Recommend this Job to a Friend: No, I feel it would likely be less happy having pursued it than not.
Would You Pursue this Job Again: Yes, but only because I know I would have never felt satisfied had I not. If I knew what I know now, it would be a very difficult decision and I can't say what I would choose because I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see any way but forward.
What is the Worst Thing About This Job: Not being able to do the best things for your patients because of the many barriers to care that exist on every conceivable level. Also, having patients that are noncompliant and literally killing themselves while you can do nothing but watch, which is a great number of patients.
What is the Best Thing About This Job: The days when you actually feel like you made a difference. There aren't many of those, most of the time it's just by-the-numbers.
What Other Job Would You Pursue: NP, PA, PhD in psychology.
What Job Would You Encourage Others to Pursue: I don't know, I'm not them.
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I think a big part is something you mentioned - not being able to do the best things for your patients. You get reimbursed more and possibly get better hours if you work for a large hospital with a huge network. You get reimbursed less (like half) if you work in private practice. But higher pay comes with more bureaucracy, and, from what I've heard, less choice in patient treatment.

PS
If it makes you feel any better, all the PAs I know have over $100k in student loan debt and are on call a lot more often than the doctors. I think people paint that as a much better life than it might be.
 
DBC03 said:
I think a big part is something you mentioned - not being able to do the best things for your patients. You get reimbursed more and possibly get better hours if you work for a large hospital with a huge network. You get reimbursed less (like half) if you work in private practice. But higher pay comes with more bureaucracy, and, from what I've heard, less choice in patient treatment.

PS
If it makes you feel any better, all the PAs I know have over $100k in student loan debt and are on call a lot more often than the doctors. I think people paint that as a much better life than it might be.
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I could have paid for PA or NP school outright with the amount I was making in my prior career, but medicine has left me in one hell of a hole. As to call, I was mostly looking at fields that don't have call for midlevels- urgent care, EM, outpatient psychiatry, etc.

Oh, that's another thing that's always bugged me about medicine. It's so hard to change up your career once you're in, and specialty choice isn't exactly guaranteed. Get bored with EM and want to try psych, neurology, or anything else? Get ready for 3-4 years of residency! Find out you really love neurosurgery? Hope you've been studying for Step 1 since you were a premed and that you've got 18 papers published in the New England Journal. As a PA, going from one field to another is much less difficult in general, which appealed to the part of me that has serious ADD.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
I can't speak from experience, but from attendings I got to work with that would tell me how hard it is and point out all of the worst things you listed, that's still fine. But when I tell them despite all that I'm in this for the long run, I don't think its appropriate to continue talking down the career and "horribleness" of it. Agree with you on all the points you listed, however.
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Actually, here's my question for you, and it gets to the heart of why you started this thread in the first place: why do you, truly, want to be a doctor? And I'm not asking for some bull**** fluffy answer, I want you to answer from your heart of hearts, lay everything out. Do you want to save lives? Do you want to feel the power of being at the top of the food chain? The social capital that comes with the coat? The money and career stability? Does your family have expectations? What drives you, really. You'll get the most out of this exercise if you don't bull**** me and don't lie to yourself, which is hard because many premeds condition themselves to say the politically correct things about their reasons for wanting to be a doctor.
 
Mad Jack said:
I could have paid for PA or NP school outright with the amount I was making in my prior career, but medicine has left me in one hell of a hole. As to call, I was mostly looking at fields that don't have call for midlevels- urgent care, EM, outpatient psychiatry, etc.

Oh, that's another thing that's always bugged me about medicine. It's so hard to change up your career once you're in, and specialty choice isn't exactly guaranteed. Get bored with EM and want to try psych, neurology, or anything else? Get ready for 3-4 years of residency! Find out you really love neurosurgery? Hope you've been studying for Step 1 since you were a premed and that you've got 18 papers published in the New England Journal. As a PA, going from one field to another is much less difficult in general, which appealed to the part of me that has serious ADD.
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Jealous on the prior career! I've been in engineering most of my career but have been informed that lab techs in the northeast make more than I did as a professional engineer. I should add that I am definitely not making the career change for money. I've been paying taxes too long to know exactly how much gets taken before I'll even see it. But I can see how that decision would be much harder for someone who is making a lot.

And I've heard, and this absolutely cannot be confirmed, that there are thoughts of having PAs do residencies in the future. It kind of makes sense, but I imagine there may be some blow back on it.
 
Mad Jack said:
Actually, here's my question for you, and it gets to the heart of why you started this thread in the first place: why do you, truly, want to be a doctor? And I'm not asking for some bull**** fluffy answer, I want you to answer from your heart of hearts, lay everything out. Do you want to save lives? Do you want to feel the power of being at the top of the food chain? The social capital that comes with the coat? The money and career stability? Does your family have expectations? What drives you, really. You'll get the most out of this exercise if you don't bull**** me and don't lie to yourself, which is hard because many premeds condition themselves to say the politically correct things about their reasons for wanting to be a doctor.
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To steal really nice pens from nurses.

I'm partly influenced by this---I can't explain why or how-- but i'm gonna do it someday-- i'm in it for the long game.
 
DrRiker said:
If you don't mind, I have a question for you. Considering your satisfaction level with clinical medicine, have you considered transitioning into a nonclinical role? Perhaps working entirely in research, or consulting for a different industry such as biotechnology? If not, what barriers are there that prevent such a transition?

I'm only asking as a premed who entirely understands the risk of becoming dissatisfied with clinical medicine. It would be nice to hear from your perspective how a career shift is perceived.
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I have strongly considered it. I've found an outpatient clinical path moving forward that will likely allow me to remain in control of things, but I don't want to lay out my business plan on SDN until I prove I can do it successfully. Moving into hospital management, group practice management, research, or even transitioning into a non-clinical teaching role have crossed my mind, as has entering a less clinical field such as pathology. But there is one niche I've found to be my passion, though I hate the way it is currently done in most practices, so we'll see if I can make it work doing it my own way. Sorry to be vague, but I don't want to increase my competition by giving anyone any ideas.
 
Mad Jack said:
Would you rather they lie to you? They are trying to provide you with solid advice- medicine can be a pretty terrible field for anyone without a masochistic streak. They aren't kidding, they are telling you straight up they would not do it again. I'd say half the residents and attendings I've met strongly feel medicine is not a very good profession to be in, and would not do it over again if they had the chance.

I don't even know how I feel about it some days, but most days I'm fine with it. It certainly isn't puppies and rainbows, and many days are pretty damn miserable, but most jobs are. I guess the real thing I'd say to most premeds is, "Look, medicine is just a job, and it's a job you burn most of your youth getting ready to do, only to find it's not all that much different than any other job in the end. It's not all bad, it's not all good, it just is. So if you think you've got some fluffy joy-filled dream world where you're some hero that's saving lives left and right, I'd say you should re-evaluate your priorities, because most likely you'll be doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of dealing with bureaucrats, a little bit of direct patient care, a lot of second-guessing yourself, and a little bit of feeling like you actually made a difference every once in a while.

You're going to kill people, and a lot of the time, you won't know it, and even when you do know it, it'll be something that you couldn't have expected and couldn't have known. You're going to give people some of the worst news of their life, and they're going to remember those words for the rest of their days. And a lot of the time you'll just be spinning your wheels, or helpless in the face of death and disease, or crippled by rules and red tape and endless preauthorizations and subsequent denials. At the end of the day, it's a dirty, tedious, emotionally draining, physically exhausting, difficult, stressful job where the pain flows broad and deep while moments of satisfaction can be few and far between. So hey, you think that's all good, welcome aboard kiddo. If not, I'd seriously rethink your priorities."
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Mad Jack said:
If you want it plain and simple, I'll rate it for you.

Difficulty 10/10
Stress 9/10
Value for Time Invested 3/10
Satisfaction 2/10 on a bad day 9/10 on a good day, probably two or three days a month you feel great
Overall Rating 6/10

Would You Recommend this Job to a Friend: No, I feel it would likely be less happy having pursued it than not.
Would You Pursue this Job Again: Yes, but only because I know I would have never felt satisfied had I not. If I knew what I know now, it would be a very difficult decision and I can't say what I would choose because I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see any way but forward.
What is the Worst Thing About This Job: Not being able to do the best things for your patients because of the many barriers to care that exist on every conceivable level. Also, having patients that are noncompliant and literally killing themselves while you can do nothing but watch, which is a great number of patients.
What is the Best Thing About This Job: The days when you actually feel like you made a difference. There aren't many of those, most of the time it's just by-the-numbers.
What Other Job Would You Pursue: NP, PA, PhD in psychology.
What Job Would You Encourage Others to Pursue: I don't know, I'm not them.
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These were very insightful posts and I hope that everyone can benefit from them in the future.
 
DBC03 said:
Jealous on the prior career! I've been in engineering most of my career but have been informed that lab techs in the northeast make more than I did as a professional engineer. I should add that I am definitely not making the career change for money. I've been paying taxes too long to know exactly how much gets taken before I'll even see it. But I can see how that decision would be much harder for someone who is making a lot.

And I've heard, and this absolutely cannot be confirmed, that there are thoughts of having PAs do residencies in the future. It kind of makes sense, but I imagine there may be some blow back on it.
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I was actually a respiratory therapist previously. With shift differentials and everything, I pulled in between 35 and 38 an hour, plus time and a half for overtime. But we had these awesome things, contracts, which would pay you up to a 3k bonus a month to put in an extra amount of work so long as you didn't call out (3k contracts were 80 hours extra in a 4 week period). I was kind of gaming the system, as the extra hours were over your base hours, and I was coded as 20 hours part time, so I'd put in for two contracts that worked out to about 60 hours a week total for a 6k bonus on top of my 35-38 an hour and 52.50 an hour for overtime. Works out to about $8,000 every two weeks, insane money. But it was feast or famine- contracts were usually winter only because there were more sick people and we were short staffed, so the rest of the year you'd make $5,000 every two weeks for the same amount of work, which still wasn't bad. You clear 26 contracts in a year and work 60 hours throughout and you could pull in some serious cash- at my rate it would work out to $164k. About a third of the department was making $100k+ a year even when contracts were thin, and we were making less than the nurses in the place lol.

Financially, medicine has really been shooting myself in the foot. But really, I'd do it again because I'm happier than I'd have been had I not gone into it. And I really, really hope I can find a place that fits how I want to practice in the future, because medicine has the potential to be wonderful, it simply isn't as it exists right now.

As to your last bit, I doubt PAs will ever have required residencies, as it's sort of antithetical to the official position of the AAPA that PAs are generalists that should function as Swiss Army knives for their physicians.
 
Mad Jack said:
but I don't want to lay out my business plan on SDN until I prove I can do it successfully.
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I expect a full write-up on SDN(I look forward to it) in the years to come-- you gotta guide us to the promise land!!
I recommend The White Coat Investor to folks in the field every chance I get-- Backdoor Roth IRAs and all that jazz. It baffles me at how much people neglect to plan for this kinda stuff-- you can't be 25 forever.
 
LutGholein said:
I expect a full write-up on SDN(I look forward to it) in the years to come-- you gotta guide us to the promise land!!
I recommend The White Coat Investor to folks in the field every chance I get-- Backdoor Roth IRAs and all that jazz. It baffles me at how much people neglect to plan for this kinda stuff-- you can't be 25 forever.
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Seriously, I may or may not be plotting a way out of medicine thanks to the info...
 
Pepe18 said:
....so you do want them to lie to you. You just believe that their truth isn't the truth if it isn't what you think is true. Most attendings told me not to do medicine if I could see myself doing anything else at all. And you know what? I enjoy med school and I enjoy learning medicine and if I could go back in time, I think I would have gone into finance (my backup if I didn't get into med school). They weren't wrong.
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I'm saying there's no need to be ultra negative and repetitive in an attendings hatred of medicine if their student is clearly still interested.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
I'm saying there's no need to be ultra negative and repetitive in an attendings hatred of medicine if their student is clearly still interested.
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They may have seen other people who were just "interested" who went on to commit suicide. There are a lot of parts of medical training that suck and it is very hard to leave because of the debt once you start. Unfortunately that leads to physician suicide way too often. I think it is nearly impossible to understand exactly what a doctor does without working in an adjacent field or possibly having a close family member as one.

Also if you mention anything about how hard premed is, I would expect noisy attending to either laugh or worry as medical school is much harder and residency is harder yet. That isn't to discourage you because the vast majority of people who get into medical school do just fine with each of those steps, learning to do more than they could have earlier, just to put things into perspective.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Mad Jack said:
Actually, here's my question for you, and it gets to the heart of why you started this thread in the first place: why do you, truly, want to be a doctor? And I'm not asking for some bull**** fluffy answer, I want you to answer from your heart of hearts, lay everything out. Do you want to save lives? Do you want to feel the power of being at the top of the food chain? The social capital that comes with the coat? The money and career stability? Does your family have expectations? What drives you, really. You'll get the most out of this exercise if you don't bull**** me and don't lie to yourself, which is hard because many premeds condition themselves to say the politically correct things about their reasons for wanting to be a doctor.
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@Mad Jack I respect your honesty. I'm barely an incoming MS1 but I can tell you that I'm entering medicine for all the politically correct reasons plus the fact that I'm a glutton for punishment. I want to be constantly challenged and stressed as it's when I'm at my happiest. I was born for the grind and I've come to learn when I'm not on it, it makes me severely depressed. I suppose the constant chasing of a carrot on a stick distracts me from how incredibly mundane life is.. I've always told myself I should have been born in a different era, but alas, here I am, ready to begin my medical career. Perhaps I am a bit of a masochist though, 😉
 
Mad Jack said:
Would you rather they lie to you? They are trying to provide you with solid advice- medicine can be a pretty terrible field for anyone without a masochistic streak. They aren't kidding, they are telling you straight up they would not do it again. I'd say half the residents and attendings I've met strongly feel medicine is not a very good profession to be in, and would not do it over again if they had the chance.

I don't even know how I feel about it some days, but most days I'm fine with it. It certainly isn't puppies and rainbows, and many days are pretty damn miserable, but most jobs are. I guess the real thing I'd say to most premeds is, "Look, medicine is just a job, and it's a job you burn most of your youth getting ready to do, only to find it's not all that much different than any other job in the end. It's not all bad, it's not all good, it just is. So if you think you've got some fluffy joy-filled dream world where you're some hero that's saving lives left and right, I'd say you should re-evaluate your priorities, because most likely you'll be doing a lot of paperwork, a lot of dealing with bureaucrats, a little bit of direct patient care, a lot of second-guessing yourself, and a little bit of feeling like you actually made a difference every once in a while.

You're going to kill people, and a lot of the time, you won't know it, and even when you do know it, it'll be something that you couldn't have expected and couldn't have known. You're going to give people some of the worst news of their life, and they're going to remember those words for the rest of their days. And a lot of the time you'll just be spinning your wheels, or helpless in the face of death and disease, or crippled by rules and red tape and endless preauthorizations and subsequent denials. At the end of the day, it's a dirty, tedious, emotionally draining, physically exhausting, difficult, stressful job where the pain flows broad and deep while moments of satisfaction can be few and far between. So hey, you think that's all good, welcome aboard kiddo. If not, I'd seriously rethink your priorities."
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Thanks this is good to know

I know it's probably pretty specialty-dependent, but how much time does one spend seeing patients vs. talking to management or doing paperwork?
 
altblue said:
Thanks this is good to know

I know it's probably pretty specialty-dependent, but how much time does one spend seeing patients vs. talking to management or doing paperwork?
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As a hospitalist, perhaps two out of twelve hours. Hell, as most impatient doctors. Surgeons technically spend more time doing procedures (only because they're time consuming), but actual patient face to face time? Maybe a fifth to a sixth of your time at work. The rest is charting, ordering labs, making calls, coordinating things, doing discharge planning etc.
 
It can be a tough job and not always rewarding, and everyone should think carefully about going into medicine, but the grass is always greener. Lots of people in different professions hate their job at least some of the time and would probably say similar things.
 
Everyone in every profession tells you this. The amount of doctors that told me to become a PA or NP is hilarious (they do have a good heart o maybe they're a little miserable lol), but there's an equal amount that seem pretty happy to hear about my plans. Little side story, I was talking to this older lady who's got a daughter in dental school and she asked about my future plans so I shared with her and she asked if I wanted some advice, which consisted of her clucking her tongue and advising me to marry rich instead lol.
 
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I posted this on another thread some time ago and since then, chatted with more colleagues about their career choice in medicine. All of them (from 30 years in practice to PGY1's, medical subspecialists, FPs, hospitalists), all have NO regrets in pursuing medicine as a career. Medicine is gratifying, intelligently and physically challenging, stressful, exciting, tedious, frustrating, depressing.... and at the end of the day, very worthwhile. You can make a difference in how you perceive your work, your attitude and motivations can drive your perceptions. It's important to have other interests and passions so if medicine does become a burden to you, you can still use it to finance your real or new passions.
 
I've had several residents at my job tell me not to do it. I ignore them. Plenty of other residents congratulate me on getting in and chat with me about medicine. It's a spectrum and you'll find it in any job. I think doctors are cynical as a coping mechanism from seeing all the sad/horrific things they do, so they're often likely to point to the annoying things about their job.

Another thing is some of these guys were docs back in a different time of medicine (the profession has changed a lot in the last several years with EMRs, law changes, etc.) and all the changing is bothering them as well. My work is switching to a new EMR and all the doctors are complaining about it. They'd probably say it's negatively affecting their job satisfaction. I actually like the new program we'll be using. So I guess it's just a matter of perspective a lot of the time.
 
Dr. Stalker said:
Having shadowed many physicians and gotten to just hang out with residents/attendings, any other premeds get irritated when doctors ask you things like "oh why do you want to do this? This stinks!", "I wouldn't do this again if I could, too much work for too little pay", or the classic "If i could do it all over again, I wouldn't"

I think its just bad advice to give to impressionable young adults who are clearly very interested in the profession; in a humorous setting its fine, but to have doctors openly announce they dislike their job and aren't passionate and wouldn't do this all over again is just disheartening...to me, at least.
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"I wouldn't do medicine all over again." Says the doctor who spent all day saving lives before driving home in a Porsche lol

I agree. It is disheartening.
 
if you are that easily disheartened i honestly dont think ur going to make it. good luck.

would i do it again. nope.

do i know how do do anything else better after being on this one track for 10 years? no.

so what do i do? stick it out.
 
bannie22 said:
if you are that easily disheartened i honestly dont think ur going to make it. good luck.

would i do it again. nope.

do i know how do do anything else better after being on this one track for 10 years? no.

so what do i do? stick it out.
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Great advice, you're right I have zero business in medicine! THanks mate!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
 
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