Anyone Fired From Corporate Dentistry Job?

[2TH MVR]

Curious if anyone has been fired or laid off from a Corporate Dentistry job. GPs and Specialists. Reasons for dismissal?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[321931]

Curious if anyone has been fired or laid off from a Corporate Dentistry job. GPs and Specialists. Reasons for dismissal?

I do know of one that did get fired. Had alot of bedside manner with patient, didn't show up to work a few days, showed up late, did crappy fills, lost patients. But it took a long time for them to finally say "you are fired." If it was an assistant or manager they would of been gone a long time ago.

 

[2TH MVR]

I do know of one that did get fired. Had alot of bedside manner with patient, didn't show up to work a few days, showed up late, did crappy fills, lost patients. But it took a long time for them to finally say "you are fired." If it was an assistant or manager they would of been gone a long time ago.

So, in other words .... you would have to be pretty BAD to get canned. Just curious. Thanks for the reply.

 

[charlestweed]

They fired the previous orthos and hired me. That’s how I got the jobs at the corporate chains. I didn’t get to meet any of these doctors. I learned about the reasons why they got fired from the staff, who worked with them:

1. The doctor, who was in his 70s, missed work several times due to his poor health. He couldn’t see very well and the chairside staff often had to help place and position the ortho brackets for him. Patients complained because their appointments had to be re-scheduled several times.

2. The doctor was a recent grad and couldn’t handle a busy schedule. The assistants were very frustrated with the inefficiency. The waiting room was always crowded. Everybody went home late and the chain had to pay thr staff OT hours. Many patients complained because of the long wait time and the lack of the tx progress.

3. Low sale number. The manager couldn’t sell cases because the doctor had very “unusual” and expensive treatment plans. According to the TC, almost every case requires a quad helix, a bite plate or an RPE…and at least 30 months of treatment. The doctor didn’t want to accept to treat transferred cases and difficult cases.

4. The doctor didn’t want to work on the certain days (ie Saturdays) that the corporate office wanted.

5. Several orthodontists (including my friend) at SmileCare were let go because company was in financial trouble and the owner had to sell it to Coast Dental.

A couple of years ago, the corporate chain that I currently work for also faced financial trouble. The CEO had to step down. This made a lot of docs worried about losing their jobs. The company somehow got out the financial trouble. I am glad I have my own practices. Before that, I used to be very afraid of being let go. The good thing about ortho is it still relatively easy to start a practice.

They generally don’t like to fire orthodontists (unless they are really bad) because of the continuation of care. They don’t want patients to get upset because of the change in orthodontists in the middle of the tx.

 

[2TH MVR]

Thanks Charlestweed.

If my two practice locations don't sell for the proper price .... then I will be like you. Working in corporate and private practice. 6 days a week. Not really what I want to do at this point of my life. My wife is so concerned that I may be fired at some point. The transition into the high paced, simple mechanics of doing ortho in the corporate setting has actually been easy for me and dare I say .... somewhat interesting. Just something different at this point of my life.

 

[charlestweed]

Yeah, I feel like I’m on vacation when I work at a chain. I make less here but the stress level and the workload are also much less than working at my own offices. Don’t need to worry about the GP referrals, paying staff salaries/bills, equipment breakdown etc. That’s why I’ve stayed at this corporate job since graduation.....more than 15 years ago. It’s hard to let go of an easy job with great pay.

When I first graduated, I worked for 3 different companies because I didn’t want to be completely out of work if I got fired by one of them. I then started my first…and then second, and third, and fourth office with the plan to quit the corporate job completely. But then I realized that by hiring more part time chairside assistants, I could see more patients per day without having to increase more days at my offices. So I only quit the other 2 corporate jobs and continue to work for the one that I like. Another beauty of working for the corporate office is I get to meet a lot of good chairside assistants. When I am off, they are also off so they can come work part time for me at my offices. Hiring these part time assistants helps keep my overhead low.

 

[TanMan]

Curious if anyone has been fired or laid off from a Corporate Dentistry job. GPs and Specialists. Reasons for dismissal?

For me, they found out I opened my own office (GP) and I did whatever I wanted. Other colleagues that were laid off was primarily due to being too slow or pose as a liability. I couldn't work for corporate again. They don't pay enough to match ownership and all the bureaucracy/politics were annoying.

 

[2TH MVR]

Yeah, I feel like I’m on vacation when I work at a chain. I make less here but the stress level and the workload are also much less than working at my own offices. Don’t need to worry about the GP referrals, paying staff salaries/bills, equipment breakdown etc. That’s why I’ve stayed at this corporate job since graduation.....more than 15 years ago. It’s hard to let go of an easy job with great pay.

When I first graduated, I worked for 3 different companies because I didn’t want to be completely out of work if I got fired by one of them. I then started my first…and then second, and third, and fourth office with the plan to quit the corporate job completely. But then I realized that by hiring more part time chairside assistants, I could see more patients per day without having to increase more days at my offices. So I only quit the other 2 corporate jobs and continue to work for the one that I like. Another beauty of working for the corporate office is I get to meet a lot of good chairside assistants. When I am off, they are also off so they can come work part time for me at my offices. Hiring these part time assistants helps keep my overhead low.

Your strategy makes a lot of sense and is probably the direction most grads with high debt should consider/and are doing. Take the corp job that is available and start/buy your own private practice as soon as you can. Do both until you find a balance that works for you.

 

[Localnative]

Another beauty of working for the corporate office is I get to meet a lot of good chairside assistants. When I am off, they are also off so they can come work part time for me at my offices. Hiring these part time assistants helps keep my overhead low.

Be aware of the legal ramifications (if any... read your contract very carefully) of poaching help from a corporate office where you are currently employed. If they find out, you may find yourself in a nasty battle with the company's legal team. Happened with a pedodontist down here in the Southeast... they dragged her through the mud.

 

[TanMan]

Be aware of the legal ramifications (if any... read your contract very carefully) of poaching help from a corporate office where you are currently employed. If they find out, you may find yourself in a nasty battle with the company's legal team. Happened with a pedodontist down here in the Southeast... they dragged her through the mud.

An important lesson for those that are afraid of the corporate legal teams: Every corporate chain has their own dirty laundry. Document and know who does what, the hypocrisy of corporate chains (they tend to hide behind their SOP, but their actions are different), and other things that they wouldn't want known to the public. They know who gathers information either through their own internal monitors or if you spread it to the upper level admins. They typically do not want this information in a deposition and won't pursue you any further. In this instance, they have more to lose than to gain by going after you. With the advent of social media, these things tend to spread a lot faster than they used to (going viral). Stay safe and protected.

 

[charlestweed]

Be aware of the legal ramifications (if any... read your contract very carefully) of poaching help from a corporate office where you are currently employed. If they find out, you may find yourself in a nasty battle with the company's legal team. Happened with a pedodontist down here in the Southeast... they dragged her through the mud.

They actually know that some of their assistants work part time for me at my office. Since most of the corporate offices only give their assistants 16-18 work days per month (I guess to avoid paying the OT hours), I actually do the corporate office a favor by giving these assistants the additional work days. When these assistants have enough days, they won’t have the intention leave their current job (at the corporate office and at my office) to find another job that gives them full time hours. It’s expensive to live in CA and working 16-18 days/month is not enough.

I remember one time the regional manager asked me if I could hire one of their assistants, whom they really like, 2-3 days a month because they could only give this assistant 18 days/month. I ended up hiring this assistant 6 days per month.

Having these P/T assistants helps a lot in reducing the overhead. There’s no reason for me to waste money in hiring full time assistants (and let them sit around doing nothing) when each of my offices is only opened a few days/month to treat patients.

Yes, I remember they made me sign a form that prohibits me from hiring their employees after I leave my associate job. I don’t think they are going to do anything to me if I violate that contract. If they lose an employee, they can easily find another one. I don’t think they are going to waste their time and money in hiring a lawyer to sue me for “stealing” their employee.

 

[Munks]

I do know of one that did get fired. Had alot of bedside manner with patient, didn't show up to work a few days, showed up late, did crappy fills, lost patients. But it took a long time for them to finally say "you are fired." If it was an assistant or manager they would of been gone a long time ago.

Also West Coast here.

I want to say it is rare that GPs have been let go for not reaching production.. and that is because at this point, most dentists leave on their own volition because they're not taking home enough on percentage-based pay.

There were 2 specialists I knew of that got let go - one was an Ortho that nobody liked, assistants, receptionists, other dentists in the practice, etc, and he bad mouthed other dentist/ortho tx plans when they were transferred to him. As a sidenote I'd mention it seems like transfers happen a lot more than private practice unless you've been in the corporate practice for a long time, if I'm not mistaken CTweed.

The other specialist was an endo that had horrible bedside manner, back-talked patients, poor clinical results (from what I and other dentists have seen), who actually ended up being rehired a few years later because he was so productive lol.

And as oppose to what Rainee said, I'd say assistants or managers took even longer to fire.. zzz not missing that.

 

[Munks]

They actually know that some of their assistants work part time for me at my office. Since most of the corporate offices only give their assistants 16-18 work days per month (I guess to avoid paying the OT hours), I actually do the corporate office a favor by giving these assistants the additional work days. When these assistants have enough days, they won’t have the intention leave their current job (at the corporate office and at my office) to find another job that gives them full time hours. It’s expensive to live in CA and working 16-18 days/month is not enough.

Sounds like bologna about the assistants but it's totally true - assuming you have a good relationship with your employer. In one of my corp practices, they were trying to hire an awesome assistant, but they only had enough hours to give her ~3-4 days/week and she needed a FT week (kids and bills).. ended up getting her at the expense of reducing hours for all the other assistants and/or making everyone spread days traveling to different practices! Ouch!

I'm sure they would have been glad to have her busy another 2 days a week PT at some other office.. and like you said her being only on a PT basis with you is ideal as well! Great situation all around.. I will definitely be on the lookout if I could do that as well.

Off-tangent, but now that I'm thinking about it - I do wonder how it works for scheduling if your office or the corporate office decides to change days up, and how that works with shared staff. I would imagine for you CTweed it probably doesn't happen much since you've been there so long and it's stable.. but for the initial stages of setting up a practice it's worth thinking about.

 

[charlestweed]

Off-tangent, but now that I'm thinking about it - I do wonder how it works for scheduling if your office or the corporate office decides to change days up, and how that works with shared staff. I would imagine for you CTweed it probably doesn't happen much since you've been there so long and it's stable.. but for the initial stages of setting up a practice it's worth thinking about.

I am very flexible to changes in scheduling at the corp offices because I work at my own offices mostly on the weekends (3 Saturdays, 3 Sundays and only 6 weekdays). The corp offices can pick whatever days they want and I can just use the other available days for my own offices. That’s why I didn’t need to quit my F/T associate job when I started my first office years ago. With a nice F/T associate income, starting an office was much less stressful for me. At the beginning, I could handle up to 20 patients a day by myself w/o a chairside assistant. Six months later when I got busier, I started asking some P/T assistants to help so I could see more patients without having to add more days at my office…w/o having cut my associate days at the corp.

It’s also easier to find P/T assistants to help on the weekends because most other offices are closed. With more assistants, I can see 1.5-2x more patients and produce 1.5-2x more on the weekends than on the weekdays. So working 6 weekend days per month is equivalent to working 10-12 regular weekdays. Having weekend hours helps attract the parents who don't want their kids to miss schools. It’s actually not too bad working on Saturdays and Sundays. I start at 8am and finish at around 11:00-11:30am. Sometimes, I come home even before the kids get out of their beds and finish their breakfast.

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm jealous that some of you have good corp job asst's. In my corp gig .... I have 4 asst's assigned to me. 2 nubes and 2 experienced. The two nubes work hard, but are SLOWWWWWWW. The two experienced asst's have been in the corp environment too long and they do just enough to keep their jobs. They wouldn't last long in my private offices. What's worse is that the veteran asst's are teaching the two nubes. Now the nubes are learning the corporate way as opposed to the private practice way. But I then I remind myself that ..... I'm in a corp practice.

 

[stocktrader31007]

I'm jealous that some of you have good corp job asst's. In my corp gig .... I have 4 asst's assigned to me. 2 nubes and 2 experienced. The two nubes work hard, but are SLOWWWWWWW. The two experienced asst's have been in the corp environment too long and they do just enough to keep their jobs. They wouldn't last long in my private offices. What's worse is that the veteran asst's are teaching the two nubes. Now the nubes are learning the corporate way as opposed to the private practice way. But I then I remind myself that ..... I'm in a corp practice.

2TH MVR,

What kind of income are you pulling working 6 days per week?

 

[2TH MVR]

2TH MVR,

What kind of income are you pulling working 6 days per week?

Starting next week .... I will be working 3 days in my private practices and 3 days at Corp. Lets just say that with the guaranteed daily plus the generous incentives .... I will be making more at the Corp job than my private practice. I am essentially making more than double what I had been making after taxes for the last 10 years. The amount I currently make after-tax is essentially what I was making pre-recession era on 4 days a week at my private practices. I'm not going to mention numbers, but PM me at tax season (April 15th) and I can give you the EXACT number based on the tax return.

Remember ... my end game is not to work 6 days a week. I am currently transitioning (selling) out of my private practice and hopefully only 4 days per week in the Corp practice. Hopefully. 😉

 

[jda02624]

2TH MVR, thanks for sharing your info. Maybe I missed it, but what is the reason you are moving from private practice to corporate? Is it simply financial?
As far as your original question, I do know of a couple dentists that have been let go in the corporate setting. I don't know the exact reasons, but one was supposedly doing dodgy stuff (not sure if it was a Medicaid issue or just crappy work -- he was a pedodontist) and the other GD just butted heads with the regional director and they fired the dentist. One orthodontist was hired, but the growth wasn't as much as expected and she was really slow, so she was let go.
I think the biggest issue in your case may be that they see you as too highly paid (that's my fear too). I think someone at corporate can just determine that they can find another orthodontist for, let's say, $200 less/day and then look at how much they can save over a year, for example. Hopefully they do not realize it's that simple because it's not just about simple numbers that mean success.

 

[2TH MVR]

55 yrs old and wanting to downsize my life. Empty nesters. I'm selling my home and both practices. Tons of equity in the home and the practices are paid for. I own the building that one practice is housed in. Not selling the building.

Quite simply BORED with private practice and everything that comes with it. Time for something totally different. Not interested in teaching or the low pay that accompanies teaching. An ortho friend of mine mentioned that their office needed a part time ortho. I thought why not. Went in and LOVED the atmosphere. It was nice being an employee for once. My friend then decided he was going to move to another state and I was offered the full time job.

As with any employee ... the issue is getting canned for whatever reason. I've always been my own boss and find it somewhat humorous thinking about getting fired. I just don't see it. My ortho buddy was there for 8 years.

As of now .... my home and two practices are still on the market. I may just keep one of the offices as a fallback. We'll see.

 

[Apramana]

Thanks for the perspective, @2TH MVR .

With all the emphasis on new grads becoming owners as quickly as possible, and avoiding corporate as much as possible, do you feel that corporate may not be the evil that people make it out to be?

From what you've said, it sounds like your income at corporate is fairly comparable to private practice as an owner, and I would think the headaches of being an employee are probably less numerous and severe than the headaches of being a practice owner.

The ability to be our own boss seems to add quite a bit of flexibility, however, but I wonder if when we take both corporate and owner roles in their totality, they come out to be similar from an income and quality of life perspective.

It's tough to imagine how one could earn the same as an employee as one could as an owner, but I guess if we looked solely at the pay-per-hour, the employee has fewer issues to deal with.

I believe @vasco started off corporate and then transitioned to ownership, and seems to prefer ownership, both for the autonomy and the income, but I wonder if the pay-per-hour might actually be similar, since owners likely work more for their larger income, whereas employee dentists can just focus on clinical practice.

Thanks, as always, for whatever insight you might be kind enough to share.

 

[2TH MVR]

To add clarity to my posts .... I have been practicing in an urban, very popular city which means ..... LOTS OF DENTIST, SPECIALIST, CORP, DSO SATURATION. I am literally surrounded by others offering orthodontic treatment. Add the recession and the changed purchasing habits of people ... my PRIVATE practice salary has gone down approx. 30-40% of what it was prior to 2008.

And of course .... nearing retirement tends to lead to less practice development. Past referrers are retiring, disabled and now teaching, etc. etc. All of this adds up to LESS salary. Therefore .... I will bring home more salary at the Corp office than private .... or close to it ... based on the number of days I work.

Now ... I will preface that a young, energetic, GP or Specialist who has a complete understanding of social media advertising, etc. etc. would expect to make more in the private setting.

I very much enjoyed having the privilege to owning my practice ... and still do. If you spent all those years studying to be a dentist ... you deserve to be your own boss and nothing beats private practice. Again ... I'm just bored and looking to do something "different".

My advice to new dentists with debt which is probably everyone. Corp Dentistry is an option that I did not have when I came out of Ortho school. Use it to have a job and quickly look to get into private practice.

 

[Apramana]

Thanks, @2TH MVR 🙂 I appreciate the additional perspective and feedback. Please have a great day.