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If so, how did med schools handle it during interviews, etc? I am about to apply very soon but am afraid an honor code violation would severely limit my chances.
Anyone gotten accepted to med school despite having honor code violation?
- Thread starter aznboifsho
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Depends what kind of violation you have committed. Something rather benign like being intoxicated at a football game will be viewed way differently than academic fraud. If it is more towards the later, you will have a very tough time.
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The problem is that even there is no record of it, the fact that you missed an entire quarter will be suspicious and you will need to explain why. Or were you on like academic suspension, where they were watching all your moves but you still took classes? I am surprised that your school suspended you for an entire semester and there is no record of it -- i would verify that before applying to medical school. If you don't have a pre-med committee that will be forced to write a recommendation for you, I would talk to your pre-med advisor and see if you should mention this suspension in your apps (or if your school considers it a "learning experience" -- though getting an F on one paper versus an entire quarter suspended... well that's a "big" learning experience... but they might recommend you not mentioning it because you learned your lesson.) Another place to go is talk to the people who did suspend you and see what pre-med students have done in the past when applying to medical school.
This anti-cheaper stance on SDN has to stop. Being pre-med can be stressful at times and I have seen several people go the wrong route trying to get the A. Experiences like this -- were students get caught -- usually are a learning experience and the student changes his or her approach to academic, learning, and cheating. A one time offense should not stop a student from going to medical school.
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Sure it should. Considering there are 18 THOUSAND LEFT OVER applicants every year, why should anyone seriously consider someone who finally got caught cheating? Who knows how often they cheated before getting caught. (I highly doubt the one time they were caught was their "first offense.") If someone cannot correct their own actions w/o the threat of punishment, maybe they don't belong in a career where they are in stressful situations with people's lives on the line constantly. And the whole "pre-med is stressful" is a load of crap. Pre-med classes aren't any more stressful than the rest of college. I did both -- if anything, pre-med coursework is LESS stressful, IMO. Not to mention the simple fact that the little stress we experience as pre-meds is laughably petty by comparison to that which medical/healthcare professionals encounter on a daily basis. (You have finals; they have reviewers they have to keep happy and satisfied while maintaining the safety and well-being of ever pt on the unit -- often w/ every reviewing agency having contradictory yet mandatory "suggestions.")
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Being suspended is an IA so you need to report it. It probably crushes what little chance you had in the first place with your poor stats.
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I'm not saying pre-med classes are more stressful -- I'm saying the drive for every pre-med student to get an A in every class is stressful. Other classes are stressful, but most students are happy with a B. It's only really with pre-meds that you see crazyyy students basically crying if they don't get an A. Maybe it's just my school, but it can get fustrating TAing some of them. Getting a B in a course should be considered a success... but well, with 18,000+ kids get an A in that course, that's when the stress comes along and that is when students look for other options to help get them that A (rather than learn).
The student may have cheated a few times before being caught maybe for years, but the action of being caught is the lesson. He shouldn't be punished for the rest of his life -- and hence, that is why there is no record about it.
But then again, if we are going to reject one-time cheaters at every application we should also do that to students who have been caught smoking pot or drunk before the age of 21 (or drunk over the age of 21 and arrest for public indenceny). For all my friends who smoke pot "it's not a dumb young-person thing," it's is something they do for the rest of their life. Why should those students go to medical school? (Why do I know of residents who binge drink and then go straight off to the hospital?) Why didn't they get automatically rejected?
and what if they don't get caught? i admit i cheated in high school copying homework and stuff but in college, not once. i think people who cheat either have no morals or are just stupid. i wouldn't want either as my doc. why do you need to have a lesson that cheating is wrong? i guess i hate cheaters because they would always do better than me.
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But you have cheated, so you have a lack of morals and are stupid according to what you just said. You don't deserve to be a doctor because you have cheated in your life.
Or what you are saying is that you learned your lesson during HS (I learned my lesson when I started HS -- and never cheated again after I no longer had spelling bees)... but most students have cheated one time or another, and learned the stress/fear of getting caught doesn't make cheating worth it and stopped. For some students it takes longer -- and they might actually need a wake up call (before they try to submit a plagiarism paper for publication). Cheater might do better academically -- but they aren't learning anything and they definitely can't cheat the MCAT, so they will do poor there (unless they finally sit down and try to actually learn).
For students that have cheated in college, gotten in trouble, and learned from the lesson, they deserve a second chance. That is why many colleges don't put it down on student's academic records, because they realize that part of college is learning how to act in the professional world.
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moved to PA.
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People on here need to stop acting like they are perfect. Yes, cheating is stupid and something that I don't believe in, but I also realize that people make mistakes and people are capable of change.
If you think that people who make mistakes should pay for it for the rest of their lives then maybe you should reconsider your career plans. You will run in to many people with health problems that are a direct cause of their poor decisions. I guess you will just tell them, "Sorry about your broken leg, but you chose to drive drunk and run a red light and that is your fault. I'm not going to treat people who make mistakes. You are not capable of change."
Once again, I don't condone the behavior nor understand why people do it. But I also know that I'm not perfect and that some of my worst mistakes are what has made me who I am today.
Yes OP, you have an uphill battle at best. Decide if this is something you really want to do because you will need to be prepared to spend a lot of time and money on something that is a long shot.
If you think that people who make mistakes should pay for it for the rest of their lives then maybe you should reconsider your career plans. You will run in to many people with health problems that are a direct cause of their poor decisions. I guess you will just tell them, "Sorry about your broken leg, but you chose to drive drunk and run a red light and that is your fault. I'm not going to treat people who make mistakes. You are not capable of change."
Once again, I don't condone the behavior nor understand why people do it. But I also know that I'm not perfect and that some of my worst mistakes are what has made me who I am today.
Yes OP, you have an uphill battle at best. Decide if this is something you really want to do because you will need to be prepared to spend a lot of time and money on something that is a long shot.
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I know someone who got accepted despite being caught plagerizing on essays and getting F's in the class. However, he applied with stats worthy of a top10 med school and ended up being accepted to a very very lowly ranked MD school.
It can be done, but it's tough.
It can be done, but it's tough.
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Create another similar thread with same title maybe you'll get more answers.
EN
EN
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The reality is that your actions have consequences. I work every day with the pts you described. My heart breaks daily for them. I wish I could simply tell them, "Oh well, you'll get another chance. Just don't make that mistake again." The fact of the matter is that most of them won't get another chance. Most of them have made "that one mistake" and will struggle the rest of their lives to gain (and keep) employment, find a spouse, find a house, get to see their kids again, etc. I don't really think the removal of a massive privilege like going to medical school is that big of a price to pay for not learning a lesson like "don't cheat" before turning 18. College students are adults, not children, and should be treated as such.
That being said, if the OP has the stats and an otherwise excellent record, I hope some schools will show him/her some love and consideration beyond the infraction, whatever it may have been.
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You should probably cheat on your applications too and say you discovered a novel chemotherapeutic agent that has shown fantastic results in phase I and II clinical trials. Oh and you were part of the group that founded Twitter. And that LeBron told you and only you where he was going to play basketball. Then they will probably overlook your previous violation.
Joking aside I believe in second chances and hope that some school out there in the medical world does too. That is, if you truly deserve it. Good luck OP.
Joking aside I believe in second chances and hope that some school out there in the medical world does too. That is, if you truly deserve it. Good luck OP.
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There is not a lot of cheating going on around the Meddies at my school. Our egos prevent that if anything else. Why would you cheat? Chances are the person is equal or slightly better, not worth it. As for being accepted, I doubt it. There are so many qualified applicants that get rejected. Good luck though.
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Most sense anyone's made in a while. What one believes SHOULD happen often does not reflect the manner by which the world operates [Can't really do anything about it either]. We can spout ideals all day long about learning your lesson and making a change blah blah blah. Only under extremely special circumstances can I see an adcom choosing a dishonest applicant over an honest one. As the post mentions above, why would he/she need to?
Would an adcom be afraid that voting to accept a cheater might reflect poorly on him/her, particularly if the person cheats/fails in medschool.
"Hey Jim, did you hear about Leroy? He just got put on academic probation again.... wasn't it your idea to accept him?"
"God damn it Leroy"
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Was it Loma Linda... I'm asking because of your avatar lol
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I wasn't necessarily talking to you. There have been a few threads like this lately and what I wrote has been on my mind lately.
I am not disagreeing with your opinion on what the outcome would be if the OP applied either. Chances are he/she won't get in. All I am saying is that people on here often lay in hard on people, most of the time for good reason, but refuse to acknowledge that they are capable of making mistakes as well. My main point was not about medical admissions either, but was rather about how an attitude of superiority will not make one a good doctor but most likely make one a poor doctor IMO.
if you want to become a doctor enough, if that's your dream, you will eventually get in. just keep trying, even if it doesn't work out this year.
if it's obvious that you regret cheating, and that you have learned your lesson, i don't see why you shouldn't get in.
people make mistakes, get punished, and live the rest of their lives never making that same mistake again.
my advice - apply early and apply everywhere, mention what you did in your apps, because you need to prove that you are honest and taking responsibility
do something that shows that you changed - get involved with your university's 'honor code' department (sorry, don't know what that's called)
get involved with helping children, like become a mentor at a school, talk to kids about 'cheating' and how it's wrong
anything else that you can think of that shows you changed
if you do these things, even after you submit your app, you'll have something to talk about during interviews, because it will definitely come up
showing consistent initiative is extremely important
of course, if you don't get in after a couple years, and you still want to be a doctor, you can always try foreign medical schools
and finally, if all the above just seems like too much time/work, then it's obvious that you don't want to be a doctor, so just choose another field
if it's obvious that you regret cheating, and that you have learned your lesson, i don't see why you shouldn't get in.
people make mistakes, get punished, and live the rest of their lives never making that same mistake again.
my advice - apply early and apply everywhere, mention what you did in your apps, because you need to prove that you are honest and taking responsibility
do something that shows that you changed - get involved with your university's 'honor code' department (sorry, don't know what that's called)
get involved with helping children, like become a mentor at a school, talk to kids about 'cheating' and how it's wrong
anything else that you can think of that shows you changed
if you do these things, even after you submit your app, you'll have something to talk about during interviews, because it will definitely come up
showing consistent initiative is extremely important
of course, if you don't get in after a couple years, and you still want to be a doctor, you can always try foreign medical schools
and finally, if all the above just seems like too much time/work, then it's obvious that you don't want to be a doctor, so just choose another field
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I'm gonna say what's on everyone's mind. Cheaters can GTFO!
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i cheated once and i hate to admit it...
but she deserved it 👍
but she deserved it 👍
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No action was taken so you don't have to report it technically (assuming it doesn't go down as some sort "IA: warning" in your academic record).
Of course your LOR writers might mention it.... In which case not having mentioned and explained it in your app might come back and bite ya....
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GH253 - Verify with the person who gave you the warning that there is no record of it and you should be fine. Technically though you are suppose to mention it on the AMCAS -- but based on what many anti-cheater people are saying, if you mention it, you are ****ed and your application will be rejected.
(So why would anyone willing say something not on their record if they can't even rectify the situation)
Also -- don't ask for LORs from people who know of your IA warning (based on apumic's suggestion)
(So why would anyone willing say something not on their record if they can't even rectify the situation)
Also -- don't ask for LORs from people who know of your IA warning (based on apumic's suggestion)
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So do I
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What pressured you to lose your integrity? I too loath cheaters and would not want to go to a professional school with one. But, this is life and I know there are cheaters in medical school or anywhere you go. Your problem is that you got caught and it's on your record. Now you have to deal with it. You automatically put yourself in a position that zaps you out of any top tier medical school no matter how nice your transcript/resume looks. You should still apply if that is what your heart desires, but be happy with whatever you can get.
On second thought, there are times when the adcoms might not even notice. It's a warning? That could be anything. They may call your school up to check and if it is mild enough and they are mild enough, it could be water under the bridge. You should look at both senarios though. Don't let this little mess up screw with your mind when you apply or interview. People do make mistakes.
On second thought, there are times when the adcoms might not even notice. It's a warning? That could be anything. They may call your school up to check and if it is mild enough and they are mild enough, it could be water under the bridge. You should look at both senarios though. Don't let this little mess up screw with your mind when you apply or interview. People do make mistakes.
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People make mistakes. But is it really that much to demand from future physicians that they don't cheat? I don't think so. I think cheating is a perfectly good reason for barring you from applying. Most of the time, the crap people spew about "learning from their mistakes" and "maturing" isn't genuine and is just the expected canned response. I know a few people that have done some seriously sketchy things, and it truly scares me to think they will get accepted to medical school somewhere simply because they weren't caught.
You're attempting to hold everyone in society to the same standard. I think we would have a serious problem if that was the expectation. Call me judgmental, but I think a future physician should be judged much more harshly than a garbage man, grocery store cashier, or even other members of the medical profession.
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I doubt that, a recent poll found 62% of students had cheated at at least one point in their life. It was self-reported.
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I know it's not "ethical" to do this, since they want you to be honest even if it's not on your record, but don't schools usually expunge academic dishonesty records once you graduate if the infraction was mild enough, and automatically expunge all records after 5 years? My school does at least...
I personally think there should be levels to this, and you shouldn't always just discount someone for simply having a letter in their file. Cheating on a test and copying a prelab answer from your lab partner are not at all the same in imo, but it seems like they get treated as such.
I personally think there should be levels to this, and you shouldn't always just discount someone for simply having a letter in their file. Cheating on a test and copying a prelab answer from your lab partner are not at all the same in imo, but it seems like they get treated as such.
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Let me make a couple points;
First, I don't think I was completely clear that I don't think this person deserves to go to medical school, and most cheaters don't either. I agree that by the time one knows that medical school is something they want to do they should play it pretty safe from then on and realize that their ethics are part of the "package."
My post was something that has been building with me for a while on this site though. People on here love to get on their high horse and make pretty harsh comments. Again, they may be deserved, but I just think that we should all remember that if medical schools really knew of all the stuff we have done very few of us would come out clean. I just think that it is possible to be honest with a poster without acting superior is all.
At least he has chicken..
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If you were suspended because of it that is institutional action against you and it must be reported on AMCAS.
I disagree. While I'm not advocating drug use, smoking pot does not call into question issues of morality in terms of honesty. Don't get me wrong--substance abuse is equally unacceptable, but it's an entirely different issue.
Cheating is bad enough for a high school student. But a pre-medical college student who cheats clearly is not ready for the medical field. I don't care if a physician got a C in gen chem and barely passed physiology. The material you learn is important, but there are plenty of fantastic physicians who were mediocre students and barely made it into (and out of) medical school. Integrity is more important. When you are entrusted with the health of other people, honesty is crucial.
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^THIS.
If you make a mistake as an attending (or a med student -- and you will), you'd better let someone know as soon as you discover it. That can be a very scary thing but if you let someone know right away, they may be able to help you out of the situation; whereas if you try to bury your mistake, falsify documentation, etc. and that pt dies or is seriously harmed as a result, it's only a matter of time before you get investigated, suspended from medical practice, slapped w/ a multi-million dollar lawsuit, and imprisoned for related charges. (Obviously, I am being a bit melodramatic here, but the fact of the matter is that professional ethics are crucial in any healthcare field and someone who blatantly lacks them upon reaching adulthood should probably never get close to the life or death professional situations healthcare providers deal with everyday.)
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I agree with some of this.
There have been a lot of these cheating/moral violation/etc threads as of late, and it all boils down to the same thing. If you are a pre-med, and you know that you are applying to medical school, you shouldn't be doing stupid **** and expecting to get away with it. Yes, there are some that do. But that is wrong. Why should someone with a good record and amazing stats get rejected from a school so they can make room for the idiot who got caught cheating on his exams? I'm not going to go ahead and be vindictive and say that I'm glad whatever person got caught and now they can't go to medical school and laugh at them - that just makes me childish - but it's always a relief to know that if someone screws up, they have to pay for it. Most cheaters have done it before - their quote en quote "first offense" is basically the first time they actually got caught.
What I don't agree in the quoted post is that integrity matters more than grades. Yes, honesty is crucial in this field, but if my physician/surgeon failed gross anatomy twice and barely made his way out of medical school.. I'm not going to want him to be my doctor and screw up my surgery or medications or what have you.. just my opinion there. I do realize that most will not graduate if they can't pass courses or if they fail too many, but with your saying that students who barely made it out of medical school are fantastic physicians.. well, they may have wonderful bedside manner, and they may be able to do some procedural work, but if they failed pharmacology, I can't see doling out meds to be working very well.
I am going to through in my 2 cents here i know its two years late but, everyone here condemning cheaters is fraudulent in itself. If you really expect someone to believe you went through undergrad and never got cheated, you're dead wrong. Someone working out online homework problems for you? Cheating. Comparing answers from an online quiz with a friend? Cheating. Having someone sign you into class where attendance was taken as a grade? Cheating. Using a professor's previous test that was not intended for student view? Cheating. Don't lie to yourselves. As a profession we are competitive by nature, and the upper hand is always what we seek. I'm absolutely not condoning the act, but you can't righteously sit on your high-horse and speak so wrongly of people, when you yourself have cheated someway somehow. Personally, I was caught for cheating my freshman year, I'm not a cheater by nature, and the act was 100% not pre-meditated. I didn't even need to cheat, me and a friend were in the top 10 of our class of 200 anyway. I wont go into the story, because frankly its pointless and nobody here cares anyway. But the fact is I am marked for cheating, but do not considered myself a cheater, I have succeeded throughout my classes on my own accord and ability. Yet I will still be seen a cheater when it comes time for me to apply. And I will apply. Becoming a physician is really the only thing I can see myself doing as a career. And I'll be damned if I let a little note from my school saying I made one mistake in my undergrad prevent me from achieving what I want to do in life. It will be harder, absolutely. But if I would let a little obstacle like that stop me from doing what I want to do with my life, then why even try in the first place? Okay maybe this was more than 2 cents, probably close to 99. But that's my experience as a "Cheater"
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I've been asked point blank if it's okay to copy off my test, as a senior in undergrad. that is inexcusable. I flat out said no to their face in a very condescending manner because frankly, it's time to grow up. I don't care about your bad grades, you incompetent twit. Now it's another story if someone asks for help while showing a bit of their own effort or asks me to join a study group
If you need to cheat in undergrad to get by, drop out of school and go into a trade. undergraduate is easy as hell. There was a girl who cheated on everything in my year (phone during biochem tests, copying p-chem lab reports, you name it), and when a teacher finally called her out on it and wrote her up for academic dishonesty, she made herself out as a victim. I'm glad someone like that has less of a chance of robbing a more deserving candidate of a seat
If you need to cheat in undergrad to get by, drop out of school and go into a trade. undergraduate is easy as hell. There was a girl who cheated on everything in my year (phone during biochem tests, copying p-chem lab reports, you name it), and when a teacher finally called her out on it and wrote her up for academic dishonesty, she made herself out as a victim. I'm glad someone like that has less of a chance of robbing a more deserving candidate of a seat
