Anyone interested in veterinary behavior medicine?

[MissBehavior]

I'm thinking about going to vet school to specialize in behavior. I know it's probably not the most lucrative specialty, but it is growing (slowly). Are any of you considering this field, and if so, have you also thought about just getting a PhD in animal behavior instead of going to vet school? I'm torn because I am mainly interested in large animal behavior, and I'm pretty sure all the residencies are mostly small animal. Any advice/comments would be appreciated. Also, have you ever heard of anyone doing a combined DVM/PhD with the PhD in a behavior-related field? One more question: there are a few large animal behaviorists (some are vets) whose work I really admire. Would it be really tacky to email them to find out more about opportunities in the field?

😕

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[Quaggi]

I think there are a lot of opportunities for large animal behavior at vet schools, but i think the choice between DVM and PhD is really whether or not you want to research their behavior or work clinically with behavior-based issues etc. I took an undergrad course at cornell on farm animal behavior, and the professors were DVM's, one of which you have probably heard of, Dr. Houpt. I think it really does depend a lot on what you're specifically interested in though, and my best guess is that you can tailor your DVM degree to fit any of those interests at any vet school. I know someone in my incoming tufts class is interested in behavior of wild animals, and she was told that she could definitely fit it in at tufts if she wanted to. It would probably be a good idea to e-mail some of the people in the field and ask, it cant hurt right?

good luck 🙂

Bari
TCSVM '10

 

[tygris]

I am also interested in behavior, and I did my MS in biology with a focus on animal behavior (research on captive cheetah behavior and endocrinology). I don't think it would be at all tacky to contact people who are doing what you'd like to eventually be doing and ask their opinions on things. The worst that will happen is they won't respond 🙂
I've actually heard that there are so few veterinarians who are board-certified behaviorists that it is a relatively lucrative field, depending on where you end up working. But I don't know much about large-animal behavior, as I am most interested in zoo animal behavioral problems.
I think that I agree with the above person as far as PhD vs. DVM, are you interested in the research side of things or the clinical side? If you're not quite positive, I'm sure there are DVM/PhD programs out there that would allow you to do your research in a behavioral field. I'm not sure that you'd get to research large animal behavior specifically, but I know many vet schools have connections with nearby zoos and similar facilities at which you may be able to work under someone and do your dissertation on a behavioral issue.
Honestly though, since it is a field that isn't very well-defined, I think it would be very wise to contact those folks you've heard of/know. And let us know what they have to say! 😉

 

[ginkogirl]

You might want to consider looking into Tufts. I know that Tufts has an animal behavior advanced degree program (my animal behavior class professor got his PhD from that program at Tufts) and being that they also have a vet school, they might have a program (or at least advice) for someone with your interests. Good luck, and although my interest falls more along the molecular biology track of veterinary medical research, I agree that animal behavior is a really cool and quickly growing field!

~Lisa

 

[kate_g]

Would it be really tacky to email them to find out more about opportunities in the field?

I say definitely e-mail them. I've noticed a pretty universal trait in professors and researchers to enjoy getting compliments and to really like to talk about themselves. 🙂 Say you admire their work, and ask a couple of specific questions ("tell me more about opportunities in the field" is so open, and would take such a long time to answer well, that they may end up blowing you off). Make it very polite and *very* brief, and don't feel bad if you don't get a response. Not that they're likely to be rude, but they're likely to be busy. Hopefully at least a couple of people will write you back, and you might end up with a couple of productive mentoring relationships.

 

[MissBehavior]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'm interested in doing both clinical work and research, which is why I thought a DVM/PhD program would be a good idea. I've heard that DVM's can definitely do research without a PhD, but after taking only 1 behavior course in vet school, I don't see how I would have enough knowledge of the subject to do research. I suppose I could do an internship & residency and try to specialize in behavior after vet school, but that would take about as much time as the PhD.

Behavior is sort of a weird field, in that there are so many directions from which to approach it. Unfortunately, my undergrad doesn't have an animal behavior degree, but I'm trying to learn about it from all angles. Neuroscience, endocrinology, evolutionary aspects of behaviors, comparative psychology- I don't know yet which of these areas interests me more, but it seems like a good idea to have knowledge of all of them, plus any other physiological/pathological issues that may affect behavior, which I would learn in vet school.

I will definitely contact people in the field, as you guys recommended. Thank you!

 

[kate_g]

I've heard that DVM's can definitely do research without a PhD, but after taking only 1 behavior course in vet school, I don't see how I would have enough knowledge of the subject to do research.

You can probably get research experience during vet school without doing the full-on PhD. Your vet school will almost certainly have a summer research program that you could do multiple times. Some have a year-long program, where you'd take a year out of your studies and do research the whole year. (Similarly if you were doing a DVM/PhD you'd probably stop after second year, do the PhD research for however long it takes, and then go back for third and fourth year.) So the key there would be finding out what vet schools have PIs doing research you're interested in (or even just a *lot* of PIs doing behavior research so you'll have a lot of options) and targeting your applications there.

 

[lillytwig]

You can probably get research experience during vet school without doing the full-on PhD. Your vet school will almost certainly have a summer research program that you could do multiple times. Some have a year-long program, where you'd take a year out of your studies and do research the whole year. (Similarly if you were doing a DVM/PhD you'd probably stop after second year, do the PhD research for however long it takes, and then go back for third and fourth year.) So the key there would be finding out what vet schools have PIs doing research you're interested in (or even just a *lot* of PIs doing behavior research so you'll have a lot of options) and targeting your applications there.

animal behavior, huh 😴

 

[tygris]

animal behavior, huh 😴

Yeah, you'll go really far with that attitude. 🙄

 

[lillytwig]

Yeah, you'll go really far with that attitude. 🙄

ill manage just fine with that attitude, seeing as how my plans include zero understanding of animal (read: non-human) psy. thats ok! best of luck to you!! 😀

 

[MissBehavior]

ill manage just fine with that attitude, seeing as how my plans include zero understanding of animal (read: non-human) psy. thats ok! best of luck to you!! 😀

Lillytwig,

Unless you plan on working only with dead animals, or doing research in lab with no direct animal contact, of course you will need at least a rudimentary understanding of animal behavior, as boring as it may seem.

Handling and restraining animals safely and effectively requires knowledge of their behavior, including what they are communicating through their body language, and trying to predict what they will do next. I can just see it now... "Doctor Lillytwig, watch out! This dog is trying to bite you!" "No, he's not. I choose to ignore animal behavior because it's boring...OUCH!!"

In addition to its value when one is working in close proximity to animals (which is presumably why many people become vets, though you may be an exception), knowledge of animal behavior is useful in diagnosing many diseases and medical problems.

If your client tells you that her horse has suddenly started tossing his head constantly when she rides, maybe you will just refer her to a trainer because you don't "do" behavior (since it's boring). Don't you think you'll feel like a dumb*ss when she gets a second opinion from another vet who finds an abscessed tooth?

Or a client brings his cat into your clinic because the cat has started urinating in small amounts, frequently, in inappropriate places. You can dismiss it as a behavioral problem, or you can look into it further, realizing that this behavior can be a sign of a UTI, diabetes, etc (presumably unboring).

Your attitude that veterinary medicine requires "zero understanding" of animal behavior reminds me of what Bernard Rollin calls "garage mechanic" veterinarians. This mindset might be shared with some clients, but certainly not all of them.

If you plan to practice small animal medicine, it would behoove you to realize that behavioral problems are a major cause of pets being relinquished to shelters. So, even if only from a financial standpoint, wouldn't it be in your best interest to help a client with his dog's issues than to have the client get rid of the dog (and by extension, you)? Ditto for equines, with behavior problems landing many horses at slaughterhouses. If you plan on working with other livestock, why shouldn't you help your farmer client find out what is stressing his dairy cows, if it means increased production and health?

Veterinary behavior medicine is not playing "animal psychic," putting FiFi on a little shrink's couch, asking her "Why don't you wuv Mommy anymore, FiFi?" If it would be boring to you to increase the welfare of your patients, strengthen the human-animal bond between clients and patients, recognize that changes in behavior can be caused by physiological dysfuctions, save your patients from "convenience" euthanasia, etc, then, by all means go be a garage mechanic vet. But at least be able to have an intelligent debate about veterinary issues. Telling someone their interests are boring with no background information or further explanation may have been "cool" in high school, but in the professional world it is, well, unprofessional.

 

[irish_pompano]

I completely agree with MissBehavior. There are so many examples that illustrate the importance of understanding an animal's behavior when attempting to diagnose a more "physical" problem. Several animals communicate only through specific observable behaviors, and understanding these is often the only way to identify a problem. Even worse, some patients are non-vocal, so the only way a vet can interpret the problem is through behavioral analysis. To lillytwig, a fish in a multi-million dollar community tank that exhibits erratic swimming patterns and scratching against the substrate just has an itch; to more responsible, professional vets wishing to fulfill their client's needs the fish is flashing- a pretty sure sign of cryptocaryon, or a suite of any other highly contagious protozoan diseases that will undoubtedly wipe out the entire community (including the more 'important ' members like 400 lb sharks) if left untreated. Not all patients can bark or meow as a reflection of a potential disorder.
Tres irresponsible.

 

[Bill59]

Some organization (may have been AAHA) did a survey recently of the most common problems seen in small animal practice. The top 3 were dentistry, dermatology, and behavior.

 

[HorseyVet]

Some organization (may have been AAHA) did a survey recently of the most common problems seen in small animal practice. The top 3 were dentistry, dermatology, and behavior.

Mind though that dentistry is largely a compliance issue (as is dermatology to a lesser extent), dermatology cases are usually just difficult to treat/manage (steriods vs. risk of steriods), and behavior is a mix of the two problems---that is even if you take the time to explain a behavior modification program to a cilent, they often don't follow it or follow up with you...also behavior is really difficult to treat as an outpatient sort of thing even if you're a vet that really wants to try....a lot of vets also simply have to refer behavior cases to specialists (not always vet specialists) just because there is no time to do anything effective in the hospital.

I guess where I'm going with this is not that there is always a lack of attempt to fill these medical needs and often not a real shortage of particular specialists...it's more of a problem of the inheirent difficulties of the treatment course.

 

[medtechv79]

I would love love to know more about animal behavior...as to why my cat still likes to nip me once in a while after being so affectionate...or why he meows all the time at midnight or 7am to go out on the patio to bask etc. etc.....but I love my cat nontheless with all his idiosyncracies 😀
I do agree u should have some idea about behavior in animals as u do in a humans...in fact I've read somewhere that some people don't even base psychology/psychiatry as science or something like that b/c its not something tangible alot of it is like assumptions and guesses....which is quite true....
how do u really know if someone is depressed etc? well based on the symptoms and what is it called ISDM IV or something he exhibits such and such behavior?
then he is labeled as depressed?
I should know I actually see a psychiatrist....for personal reasons...human and even animal behavior is to me hard but very interesting subject matter....hard to define but absolutely very fascinating!

 

[medtechv79]

I'm thinking about going to vet school to specialize in behavior. I know it's probably not the most lucrative specialty, but it is growing (slowly). Are any of you considering this field, and if so, have you also thought about just getting a PhD in animal behavior instead of going to vet school? I'm torn because I am mainly interested in large animal behavior, and I'm pretty sure all the residencies are mostly small animal. Any advice/comments would be appreciated. Also, have you ever heard of anyone doing a combined DVM/PhD with the PhD in a behavior-related field? One more question: there are a few large animal behaviorists (some are vets) whose work I really admire. Would it be really tacky to email them to find out more about opportunities in the field?

😕

omg! no way! by all means unless they're snotty and/or rude I'd go ahead and email them!!! and if they don't reply find someone who does! =)

 

[youthman]

Interesting article, didn't want to start a new thread for it so...

Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers

Dog training is a divided profession. We are not like plumbers, orthodontists or termite exterminators who, if you put six in a room, will pretty much agree on how to do their jobs. Dog training camps are more like Republicans and Democrats, all agreeing that the job needs to be done but wildly differing on how to do it.

The big watershed in dog training is whether or not to include pain and fear as means of motivation. In the last twenty years the pendulum swing has been toward methods that use minimal pain, fear or intimidation - or none at all.

The force-free movement has been partly driven by improved communication from the top. Applied behaviorists, those with advanced degrees in behavior, and veterinary behaviorists, veterinarians who have completed residencies specializing in behavior problems are in greater abundance than in previous decades, and there is much more collaboration between these fields and trainers on the front lines. These two professions are quite unified on the point that the use of physical confrontation and pain is unnecessary, often detrimental and, importantly, unsafe.

**note: I have take out the rest of the article because it's irrelevant (and sort of ridiculous).

 

[MissBehavior]

Really interesting article, youthman. Could you post a link to the whole thing?😀

 

[MissBehavior]

I finally worked up the nerve to email Sue McDonnell. She's a PhD, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, and arguably the top equine behaviorist in the country. She works at Penn, runs a behavior clinic and a manages a semi-feral herd of ponies used for behavior research. I asked her which academic path she thinks is the most beneficial for someone going into applied equine behavior. Though she didn't say anything about vet school vs. PhD, she recommended taking as many of the following classes as possible: neuroscience, comparative sensation and perception, neuroanatomy, physiology, pharmacology, and anything related to the biological basis of behavior. Also obviously expertise in behavior modification, and behaviors of horses in natural and domestic settings are extremely important. So none of her advice was that surprising I guess, but it made me question the value of an animal science degree as opposed to one in psychology, neuroscience, or something related to the evolution of behavior- especially if I were to take the vet school route. I was also completely impressed that she emailed me back the following day!

 

[youthman]

Really interesting article, youthman. Could you post a link to the whole thing?😀

http://www.sfspca.org/Viewpoint/index.shtml

 

[Moonpaw]

I know this is from a few weeks ago, but just so you guys know, it appears that LillyTwig is a pre-podiatry student...so don't take anything she says about vet medicine to heart. God knows why she feels the need to make rude, unconstructive comments on this board.