Anyone know of recent DPM grads not doing well after residency?

[GymMan]

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By that I mean, those not making a good salary. If you're in big debt I wasn't sure if the 100K+ starting salary is almost a guarantee nowadays? In the old days, DPM's tell me 100K was unimaginable. What do these guys that get 140-150K plus signing bonuses do, that other recent grads don't do, if some of these new grads make alot less? Is it their training, school attended, residency attended, or what? And do ALL new entering students have equal chance to acquire this type of future salary, as long as they complete school and residency of at least two, but preferrably three years? Thanks.

 

[MaseratiGT]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam.

What you make after you graduate is correlated to how hard you have worked during your training. There are people in EVERY field who make a pittance, and others who make a killing.

Medicine is more than patient contact. It's a business also.

 

[Feli]

Anyone know of recent DPM grads not doing well after residency?

Sure, it happens... in any profession, anywhere. The surefire ways to do pretty darn bad financially in pod (or any career) are basically the following:

1) Be unintelligent
(fail to pass classes/boards, fail to get/keep a residency, lose your license for crime/malpractice, etc)
2) Be lazy
(don't read, don't pay attention in CMEs, fall behind the standard of care or never learn it well to begin with, don't work long hours, etc)
3) Fail to use common social sense
(don't network to PCPs, don't treat your patients well, don't treat your staff well, etc)
4) Fail to use common career sense
(bill wrong or practice where there are many DPMs, few patients, bad reimbursements, all of the above, etc)
5) Fail to realize what you're worth
(sign a bad contract for a lot less than you could elsewhere and never realize it)

Any of those factors are going to hurt you. Some are instant killers (ie not getting a license to practice or getting it revolked for fraud, etc). Other ones such as no social skills might even be worse since you will practice but might be bored and miserable since you could potentially have few patients, trouble keeping staff, make lousy money, etc.

...In the end, you can be the DPM who applies himself in school, reads to learn the standards of care and current literature, does a good residency to learn all he can, and applies for and carefully considers various job positions. Then, you can work hard in clinic, network with other MDs/DOs/DPMs and show your interest and competence in seeing ER, consults, clinic patient, etc. You can also strategically market a bit if you need to (practice website, go to conferences). Basic rules and cliches of business (surround yourself with good people, spend money to make money, etc) always apply to pod as well.

GL

 

[HenryH]

When people say that it is key to "work hard" during residency, what, specifically do they mean? Do some residents just sit around or hide in the janitor's closet when they should be assisting attending physicians with procedures, etc.? It just sounds like a vague imperative; I would expect the vast majority of residents to participate as they are expected.

Is it necessary to go "above and beyond" and become respected as the "top" podiatry resident at the hospital in order to get the $150k+ offer from the high-profile orthopedic group, etc.?

 

[GymMan]

Sure, it happens... in any profession, anywhere. The surefire ways to do pretty darn bad financially in pod (or any career) are basically the following:

1) Be unintelligent
(fail to pass classes/boards, fail to get/keep a residency, lose your license for crime/malpractice, etc)
2) Be lazy
(don't read, don't pay attention in CMEs, fall behind the standard of care or never learn it well to begin with, don't work long hours, etc)
3) Fail to use common social sense
(don't network to PCPs, don't treat your patients well, don't treat your staff well, etc)
4) Fail to use common career sense
(bill wrong or practice where there are many DPMs, few patients, bad reimbursements, all of the above, etc)
5) Fail to realize what you're worth
(sign a bad contract for a lot less than you could elsewhere and never realize it)

Any of those factors are going to hurt you. Some are instant killers (ie not getting a license to practice or getting it revolked for fraud, etc). Other ones such as no social skills might even be worse since you will practice but might be bored and miserable since you could potentially have few patients, trouble keeping staff, make lousy money, etc.

...In the end, you can be the DPM who applies himself in school, reads to learn the standards of care and current literature, does a good residency to learn all he can, and applies for and carefully considers various job positions. Then, you can work hard in clinic, network with other MDs/DOs/DPMs and show your interest and competence in seeing ER, consults, clinic patient, etc. You can also strategically market a bit if you need to (practice website, go to conferences). Basic rules and cliches of business (surround yourself with good people, spend money to make money, etc) always apply to pod as well.

GL

I hate to say it, but this is extremely intimidating over the long haul and for a consistent day in and day out basis. Hell I don't even feel like waking up or working out or cooking a healthy chicken meal somedays, let alone working hours that will grind you down and wear you out for daily living. Life is filled with hard days already, to make them ultra hard for a salary that some junior exec's get is hardly incentive.

Do all DPM's feel over worked, taxed and burdened just to achieve a goal? If so, you're right this is not a fun nor even sensible undertaking when framed this way. I'm no dummy (nor rocket scientist) but I see the difficult writing on the wall. And clearly I certainly think twice about an endeavor that, though very "possibly" (once again "possibly" is the optimal word here) potentially lucrative, has a path laden with astronomical pitfalls. These pitfalls are all too easy to fall into, should you go astray at any point during this expensive undertaking. I reread this and scared MYSELF with that series of statements.

 

[GymMan]

When people say that it is key to "work hard" during residency, what, specifically do they mean? Do some residents just sit around or hide in the janitor's closet when they should be assisting attending physicians with procedures, etc.? It just sounds like a vague imperative; I would expect the vast majority of residents to participate as they are expected.

Is it necessary to go "above and beyond" and become respected as the "top" podiatry resident at the hospital in order to get the $150k+ offer from the high-profile orthopedic group, etc.?

Obviously, the more you put into it the more you'll gain in recognition or salary potential. But there's a point where it is diminishing returns. Working long hours, etc. is fine but it's going to over tax you and cause burnout real fast trying to maintain this pace for years or even a year.

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

You make no sense whatsoever gymman. Most physicians must complete a residency. There is no such thing as easy money. If you are scared of residency than do chiropractic because they have no residency whatsoever. But, as a chiropractor I guarantee that you will be working twice as hard as any other physician just to get over the six figure mark. Nothing worth having comes easy

 

[GymMan]

You make no sense whatsoever gymman. Most physicians must complete a residency. There is no such thing as easy money. If you are scared of residency than do chiropractic because they have no residency whatsoever. But, as a chiropractor I guarantee that you will be working twice as hard as any other physician just to get over the six figure mark. Nothing worth having comes easy

I know docs do residency. I'm skirting it to make the money easier. Sure you need to work long hours comparatively but you're not mandated to, as you would in a structured residency. If, as a DC, you want to work a longer "day" to see more people then you can. But if you choose to leave early (unlike residency where you MUST stay under a directive of a res. director, etc.) you may leave early. Flexibility is built in to DC, not a residency DMP program or Ortho group post-DPM graduation. You can link to an MD that knows your style and get away with unstructure to some extent. Try linking to an Ortho group as a DPM and calling YOUR own schedules and time slots to see people, "occasionally" or elongated or shortened hours as you deem fit. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

Yup...chiro sounds perfect for your style. I say go for it. I don't think you have the dedication or ambition to persue a legitimate health profession like podiatry. You come across to me as a slacker who wants to play doctor. So, go for chiro

 

[MaseratiGT]

Yup...chiro sounds perfect for your style. I say go for it. I don't think you have the dedication or ambition to persue a legitimate health profession like podiatry. You come across to me as a slacker who wants to play doctor. So, go for chiro

I agree. GymMan, I think your a troll. If your not, you have some serious work ethic problems to deal with.

 

[Feli]

...Do all DPM's feel over worked, taxed and burdened just to achieve a goal? If so, you're right this is not a fun nor even sensible undertaking ...

Not all.... but honestly, many do. That is the state of doctors (MD, DO, or DPM) in general... residents even moreso. I don't care what your specialty is. It's still a great career if you are interested in the human body, working with people, etc... but dwindling reimbursements and the growing knowledge base mean that it will be hard work. Good pay? Yes. Hard work? Yep, that too.

One of my attendings (older Jewish guy in the twilight of his career) once said this to me on rounds: "medicine's not a job, it's a calling." It stuck with me. I'm sure it's a cliche that one of his attendings told that to him back in his training 40yrs ago also, but I think I believe that statment. You will work hard in medicine... absolutely. The tradeoff is that you get to truly help people with problems they cannot fix themselves.

...These emotional medicine and patient hand-holding type of topics sound so canned that I hate even posting it, but it is true. You do have to care about people and be smart as heck to do medicine. If you are not a very intellegent person or are someone who just wants to make money, quit pre-med now and go to law/business/computer/etc school. Those fields will give you better hours and more money.

Gymman and Henry, I generally try to stay quite positive in both life and my posts here, but you both make me cringe a bit when I read your posts... are you sure you're picking medicine for the right reasons? Talk to an advisor, or better yet, find a physician mentor and see what they think.

When people say that it is key to "work hard" during residency, what, specifically do they mean? ...

...Is it necessary to go "above and beyond" and become respected as the "top" podiatry resident at the hospital in order to get the $150k+ offer from the high-profile orthopedic group, etc.?

Regarding residency, it's up to you. There are some laid back programs out there, average ones, and there are tougher ones. Podiatry Institute member Stanley Kalish said in Gerard Yu's funeral that Yu believed "that to see further, one must stand on the shoulders of giants... he became a giant himself." Similarly, I just finished getting up at 430am to do rounds and a couple surgical cases - on a Sunday mind you - to work with a "giant," Robert Mendicino, at my West Penn clerkship today. Those names probably don't mean anything to you as a pre-pod, but they sure as heck will mean a whole lot in 4+yrs if you go to pod school and learn about the profession. If you want top training, you need great teachers. And guess what... those top attendings all work very hard and will expect nothing less from their residents.

I'm not saying you absolutely need the 80hr week residency to do good financially, but it does make it more likely. You need decent training to be a good doc, but you don't need to kill yourself at a top top top program unless you are sure that you want to teach, be famous, publish research, etc. That said, money often does follow skill, and traing with "giants" will open a lot of doors for you after residency. It's a fairly small profession; most of the big guys know each other.

...There is no such thing as easy money....

...Nothing worth having comes easy...

👍

 

[HenryH]

Not all.... but honestly, many do. That is the state of doctors (MD, DO, or DPM) in general... residents even moreso. I don't care what your specialty is.

One of my attendings (pretty religious old Jewish guy) once said "medicine's not a job, it's a calling." I'm sure one of his attendings told that to him back in his training also. I think I believe that. You will work hard... absolutely. The tradeoff is that you get to truly help people with problems they cannot fix themselves.

...These emotional medicine and patient hand-holding type of topics sound so canned that I hate even posting it, but it is true. You do have to care about people to do medicine. If you just want to make money, quit pre-med now and go to law/business/computer/etc school. Those fields will give you better hours and more money.

Regarding residency, it's up to you. There are some laid back programs out there, average ones, and there are tougher ones. Podiatry Institute member Stanley Kalish said in Gerard Yu's funeral that Yu believed "that to see further, one must stand on the shoulders of giants... he became a giant himself." Similarly, I just finished getting up at 430am to do rounds and a couple surgical cases - on a Sunday mind you - to work with a "giant," Robert Mendicino, at my West Penn clerkship today. Those names probably don't mean anything to you as a pre-pod, but they sure as heck will mean a whole lot in 4+yrs if you go to pod school and learn about the profession. If you want top training, you need great teachers. Well, those guys work hard and will expect nothing less from their residents.

I'm not saying you absolutely need the 80hr week residency to do good financially, but it does make it more likely. You need decent training to be a good doc, but you don't need to kill yourself at a top top top program unless you are sure that you want to teach, be famous, publish research, etc. That said, money often does follow skill, and traing with "giants" will open a lot of doors for you after residency. It's a fairly small profession; most of the big guys know each other.

👍

Thanks for offering some explanation on the topic. Just out of curiosity...would you say that residents who graduate from laid-back/slower paced programs tend to have a harder time nabbing the "all-star," six-figure jobs? In other words, are these the guys who have turned the Network 54 Podiatry Forum into a graveyard of horror stories?

 

[Feli]

Thanks for offering some explanation on the topic. Just out of curiosity...would you say that residents who graduate from laid-back/slower paced programs tend to have a harder time nabbing the "all-star," six-figure jobs? In other words, are these the guys who have turned the Network 54 Podiatry Forum into a graveyard of horror stories?

Yes. I agree with that statement.

A lot of the people that train at the "laid back" programs that get marginal surgical numbers/attendings/clinic/etc were students who didn't apply themself. Maybe they couldn't get a good residency due to bad grades, or maybe they bypassed stronger residencies because they didn't want to work the hours. Either way, those are a big part of the disaster formula I listed for you earlier.

Good students seldom take the easy residencies. Why would they work hard for 4yrs of undergrad and 4yrs of pod school only to settle for a below average final 3yrs of residency? That makes zero sense, and it seldom happens.

 

[MaseratiGT]

nabbing the "all-star," six-figure jobs?

Did you read his entire post?? 😕

 

[PJAG]

One of my attendings (older Jewish guy in the twilight of his career) once said this to me on rounds: "medicine's not a job, it's a calling." It stuck with me.

Nice quote...this will also be stuck with me.

 

[HenryH]

Yes. I agree with that statement.

A lot of the people that train at the "laid back" programs that get marginal surgical numbers/attendings/clinic/etc were students who didn't apply themself. Maybe they couldn't get a good residency due to bad grades, or maybe they bypassed stronger residencies because they didn't want to work the hours. Either way, those are a big part of the disaster formula I listed for you earlier.

Good students seldom take the easy residencies. Why would they work hard for 4yrs of undergrad and 4yrs of pod school only to settle for a below average final 3yrs of residency? That makes zero sense, and it seldom happens.

Okay, that clears up a lot of misinformation I had running through my head. Do you know if a list exists of programs to avoid? I've browsed the all-inclusive list of podiatry residencies, but I just realized that I have absolutely no idea as to how to assess the quality of ANY of them.

 

[kmyprimeval]

agree w/ what Feli said. If ur going into medicine for all the wrong reasons, look somewhere else. There's a lot of dedication involved..it's like a divine sense of duty just to strive in podiatry school. At least for me.

Regarding podiatrist salary I wouldn't worry about it too much. Be good at what you do.....and then have a good business sense and you'll be alright (networking/connections, customer service, location, know your tax laws, etc)... you don't need education to be a good businessman. I could even quit podiatry school right now and make a killing just hustlin delhi sandwiches lol at a busy shopping center or something. Get your mind right.

 

[cool_vkb]

Okay, that clears up a lot of misinformation I had running through my head. Do you know if a list exists of programs to avoid? I've browsed the all-inclusive list of podiatry residencies, but I just realized that I have absolutely no idea as to how to assess the quality of ANY of them.

so when are you planning to apply. seats get filled pretty soon at the big schools. you interested in class of 2012? or still have time?

 

[gustydoc]

just go to chiropractic school if you are looking for a laid back schedule. podiatric medical school and residency are hard work.

 

[Feli]

just go to chiropractic school if you are looking for a laid back schedule. podiatric medical school and residency are hard work.

He's a teller of the truth 🙂

 

[MaseratiGT]

He's a teller of the truth 🙂

Amen!