Anyone torn between Medicine and PhD? thinking of grad school?

[mac_kin]

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I'm doing my Masters in Canada right now in Physical Therapy. Didn't get into med school first round. I'm still torn about going to medical school when I finish next year. Nice thing is that PT school up here is only 2.5 years so I don't feel like I'm waisting my time or getting too old (not that you really can 😛).

Don't get me wrong I really love physical therapy and sports medicine and once I graduate I'm either doing PhD to continue research/ be able to teach or I'm going to try for med school again so I can get into sports med.

Does anyone here already have a PhD and is now applying to medicine? Or anyone else torn between PhD/graduate school and medicine?? If so what are you doing your PhD in?

I'm thinking of doing a PhD maybe in Florida.

Good luck to all applicants this year!

 

[mac_kin]

bump

 

[dodger84]

I was choosing between MD and PhD programs when application time came around and I applied to and interviewed for both. I can't really say that I was completely torn between the two since research was my main interest (but there's no money for all of the effort so MD was looking pretty enticing). Anyway, PhD won and I'm at Hopkins in a biophysics lab & it's definitely the right choice for me for now. I figure I can still change my mind afterwards if I get tired of research but I don't see that happening.

 

[BlackSails]

From time to time I consider a PhD, but I fear I dont have the head to do something cool in a field I would want to do research in.

 

[nick_carraway]

From time to time I consider a PhD, but I fear I dont have the head to do something cool in a field I would want to do research in.

Ditto. I occasionally think about the option when I think about my many med school rejections. I wouldn't be unhappy in a PhD program, but it isn't part of the perfect life that I dream about.

I think that I'd like being an undergrad professor, but each career has unique benefits and medicine is simply more appealing to me right now.

 

[Crixivan]

I think that I'd like being an undergrad professor, but each career has unique benefits and medicine is simply more appealing to me right now.

I felt this way until I actually talked to some undergrad professors. After a Bachelor's degree, 5 years in a PhD program, and what seems like another 3-x years of fellowship trying to become known well enough to be worthy of grant money, you still spend the rest of your career asking for granting agencies to cover the half of your salary not paid by the university (which actually sobs up half of the grants for indirect costs). All the while, you have to balance lesson plans with supervising graduate students, dealing with the politics of academia, and quibbling with a group of kids who seem like they really don't want to learn what you're trying to teach them.

If I could make a decent living by doing nothing but delivering lectures to students interested in the material, I would love to be an undergraduate professor.

For students who want to be researchers, you will garner considerable research opportunities with an MD alone, and you're not going to have any doors close on you for not having a PhD.

 

[not so calm now]

I was planning on starting a psychology/behavioral neuroscience phd program this past fall, but several things happened to me that made me decide that a career SOLELY in research wasn't a good idea for me. First, you need to be the absolute best in your field to get a tenure-track position at a good school. It's incredibly stressful. There are about twice as many biological science phds than there are faculty positions (even at lesser schools) and the situation is even worse for outside science (ie, humanities). One very appealing fact about being a physician is the job security - if you are competent, you will not have to worry about this. Also, I feel that just a phd is much more limiting than an md. Mds can devote their entire careers to research or they can stick to patient care (or somewhere in between, like what I intend to do), but phds have to only do research.

That being said, if you absolutely love research but still want to work with people, psychology is possibility. Or the mstps might be calling your name.

 

[BMBPSU2008]

I felt this way until I actually talked to some undergrad professors. After a Bachelor's degree, 5 years in a PhD program, and what seems like another 3-x years of fellowship trying to become known well enough to be worthy of grant money, you still spend the rest of your career asking for granting agencies to cover the half of your salary not paid by the university (which actually sobs up half of the grants for indirect costs). All the while, you have to balance lesson plans with supervising graduate students, dealing with the politics of academia, and quibbling with a group of kids who seem like they really don't want to learn what you're trying to teach them.

If I could make a decent living by doing nothing but delivering lectures to students interested in the material, I would love to be an undergraduate professor.

For students who want to be researchers, you will garner considerable research opportunities with an MD alone, and you're not going to have any doors close on you for not having a PhD.

A comforting response. As a biochemistry major, I sometimes wonder if I should do grad school instead of MD. But I realize the things that appeal to me in a PhD program (medical research, teaching) are readily available to me as an MD if I choose not to go the clinical route.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an MD give one a better range of research options than would a PhD who specializes in one topic?

 

[dth92]

why doesn't anyone try MD + PhD = MD/PhD?

 

[nick_carraway]

If I could make a decent living by doing nothing but delivering lectures to students interested in the material, I would love to be an undergraduate professor.

For students who want to be researchers, you will garner considerable research opportunities with an MD alone, and you're not going to have any doors close on you for not having a PhD.

The career that you outlined would be my ideal job if I got a PhD. Like you said though, the real world comes into play and I'm not really that interested in hardcore research which would be required to make a comfortable living at a respectable school.

I also agree that MDs can have a fruitful research career. I wouldn't mind research on the side when I see something worth studying, but I'd want most of my hours to be spent with patients. The idea that MDs can enjoy less reductionalist research than PhDs is also attractive after spending nearly 3 years studying a single peroxidase domain in undergrad.

 

[Crixivan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an MD give one a better range of research options than would a PhD who specializes in one topic?

There is not an SDN consensus on this topic, but my feeling is that if you want to become a primary investigator (i.e. successful grant writer), you'll have to do some focused research as either an MD or a PhD before the funding agencies will gamble on you. Academic PhD's basically become experts in one particular field and then make a career out of publishing with their system while competing with similar scientists. MD's can do the same should they so choose, but the percentage of MD's who do strict bench research is low. It's more likely that you'll see a research-oriented MD take an academic path via residency and publish clinical studies in collaboration with basic scientists, epidemiologists, surgeons, and/or private interests while supervising resident teams and dabbling in medical student teaching here and there. I don't know if I can comment on the range of opportunities for an MD given the political nature of the relationship between MD's and PhD's on many campuses, but it's my opinion that even someone who desires a research-only career would be better off with an MD alone unless said individual fears working with patients.

why doesn't anyone try MD + PhD = MD/PhD?

The MD/PhD (sometimes called MSTP) career path is another can of worms for which there exists a whole other forum, but in short, you'd be adding 3-5 years to your doctoral degree and possibly a few more in an academic fellowship via the mudphud route. While it's true that most MD/PhD programs provide for full tuition and a stipend for the duration of the training, such compensation would not yet mirror the lost compensation as a practicing physician at this juncture while providing few benefits that you couldn't garner as an MD only.

 

[axlaxl1]

But can't you just do research as a doctor if you want to and get paid a lot more doing it? I thought this was something I wanted to pursue, meaning a md/phd, no a MTSP is not the same thing, but I learned that I love people too much to not help them. Doctor for sure!

 

[Maxprime]

There is not an SDN consensus on this topic, but my feeling is that if you want to become a primary investigator (i.e. successful grant writer), you'll have to do some focused research as either an MD or a PhD before the funding agencies will gamble on you.

I've discussed this a good bit with both MD's, PhD's, & MD/PhD's - trying to figure out if I should finish my PhD or not. The opinions vary wildly - the reality of it (IMO) is that your work speaks for itself. I have never read a paper and said, "Oh, they're just an MD." MD's have access to patients and are irreplaceable in translational research. PhD's have a level of basic science and lab knowledge that MD training doesn't provide. Getting both is arguable - supposedly better residency options (although you've spent 3-5 years for that) and slightly better funding (NIH reports less than 15% difference IIRC). It's all skewed b/c MSTP's have more publications than most pure-MD's.

I've met people on both ends of the spectrum - MD's with absolutely jaw dropping CV's and PhD's that know the treatment options for the disease they research better than the MD's. I think that, at such a high level of training, it really starts to come down to the individual.

 

[Maxprime]

But can't you just do research as a doctor if you want to and get paid a lot more doing it? I thought this was something I wanted to pursue, meaning a md/phd, no a MTSP is not the same thing, but I learned that I love people too much to not help them. Doctor for sure!

Researchers don't want to deal with patients and all the crappy parts of being a doctor. Physicians don't want to be stuck talking to cultures all day. 🙂

 

[MattD]

If I could make a decent living by doing nothing but delivering lectures to students interested in the material, I would love to be an undergraduate professor.

It's called professor at a junior college.

Oh wait, you wanted a decent living....

Oh WAIT, you wanted interested students.


Nevermind

 

[BMBPSU2008]

How about in terms of compensation? (Typically)

MD Clincal vs MD Research vs PhD Research

 

[axlaxl1]

Researchers don't want to deal with patients and all the crappy parts of being a doctor. Physicians don't want to be stuck talking to cultures all day. 🙂

Exactly, but I will have to say the pay is totaly different from a researcher to a physician

 

[mac_kin]

Thanks for all the input guys!

This might be a stupid question, but

If I went to medical school and got an MD, how would I still be able to continue research without the MD/PhD? Would I need an MD/PhD?

It just seems to me that through all my volunteer/research experiences, most people, even MDs, had the PhD. I'm assuming that you don't have to have a PhD to continue research. I'm just wondering how you secure a good research opportunity if you just get the MD. Doing research for the hospital at which you work?? Government?

thanks

 

[chemphd]

Thanks for all the input guys!

This might be a stupid question, but

If I went to medical school and got an MD, how would I still be able to continue research without the MD/PhD? Would I need an MD/PhD?

It just seems to me that through all my volunteer/research experiences, most people, even MDs, had the PhD. I'm assuming that you don't have to have a PhD to continue research. I'm just wondering how you secure a good research opportunity if you just get the MD. Doing research for the hospital at which you work?? Government?

thanks

You don't need the Ph.D. to do research. You can do research with "just" an M.D. but this will usually require research (outside of a summer during med school). Examples: *very* Research heavy fellowship after residency; NIH research programs for M.D.s; traditional post-doc (if you're more on the bench-science side of things). In the case of the more traditional post-doc, you'll get paid more as an MD than a PhD in this position. My guess is that this is because you'll have loan collectors coming after you by this point🙂 There are more programs for MD's who want to do research- you might do a search on this.

People work in different places- government, industry, academia (including hospitals). You might want to check out the academic medicine section of the mentor forum- that should have helpful information as well.

 

[45408]

First, you need to be the absolute best in your field to get a tenure-track position at a good school. It's incredibly stressful. There are about twice as many biological science phds than there are faculty positions (even at lesser schools) and the situation is even worse for outside science (ie, humanities). One very appealing fact about being a physician is the job security - if you are competent, you will not have to worry about this.

Exactly. The battle for a good job seems much more difficult for a post-doc (or lawyers) than it does for a physician who has completed a residency.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm doing my Masters in Canada right now in Physical Therapy. Didn't get into med school first round. I'm still torn about going to medical school when I finish next year. Nice thing is that PT school up here is only 2.5 years so I don't feel like I'm waisting my time or getting too old (not that you really can 😛).

Don't get me wrong I really love physical therapy and sports medicine and once I graduate I'm either doing PhD to continue research/ be able to teach or I'm going to try for med school again so I can get into sports med.

Does anyone here already have a PhD and is now applying to medicine? Or anyone else torn between PhD/graduate school and medicine?? If so what are you doing your PhD in?

I'm thinking of doing a PhD maybe in Florida.

Good luck to all applicants this year!

OP, I'm a PhD (from FL!) in med school now, and there are several others of us on SDN. Go up to the top of this forum and check out the stickies. If you have any specific questions about being a PhD-to-MD or being a grad student in FL, I'd be glad to try to answer them.

 

[some_user86]

]In the case of the more traditional post-doc, you'll get paid more as an MD than a PhD in this position.

Absolutely not. The minute you move towards a research-heavy position over a clinical-heavy position your compensation drops rapidly. Research-only MDs get paid exactly the same as PhDs (as per NIH rules about PI salaries). One has to very seriously consider how much research they plan on doing. If research is their primary goal (but they are delaying the decision for whatever reason), an MD degree would be an unwise choice because the heavy debt involved that would not be recovered as easily as their clinical-heavy counterparts. Instead, a graduate student would be compensated during this time instead of accruing heavy debts. Note, future compensation is not relevant as both research-heavy/research-only MDs and PhDs would be paid similarly. If you want to stall your decision, an MD/PhD is probably the better route as you get time and direct experience performing in both fields in addition to a lower total debt because of compensation (varies from program to program). However, again, eventually one will need to make a decision about how much research they plan on doing. If after the MD/PhD you go into research only, you just lost four years on an MD that is useless. You would need to make a decision as to whether you want to practice both clinical and research as you would need to attain a fellowship in research and a residency to practice (meaning more time). If you decide to do clinical only, you just lost four years of compensation doing a useless PhD. The best route would be to consider all options very carefully and make an informed decision before jumping into any pool.

It's not as easy as "Do an MD and make a decision later."