Anyone with MD/PhD with PhD in biostatistics / statistics / mathematics?

[cdpiano27]

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Hi, I was wondering if any of the MD/PhD people out there have studied statistics, mathematics, or biostatistics.

If so, what will you plan to do with your statistics degree. I am a PhD student in statistics with biostatistics applications. And often times, some people try to publish in medical journals. I was just curious if anyone out there was either in a:

1. combined MD/PhD program with emphasis on PHD in statistics
2. or earned a PhD in biostatistics/statistics/mathematics and then went to medical student immediately after.

I notice how in my field (statistics), often the medical doctors are knocked for not knowing statistics, and on the other hand, we are often knocked by the medical doctors for knowing very little to nothing about anatomy or medicine.

It would be interesting and probably very useful if someone had knowledge from both sides.

 

[AtheGre]

I would agree with you.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_of_Biomedical_Imaging_and_Bioengineering


Signed into law by Bill Clinton. How could you not like it ?

 

[PfNO22]

I am a college pre-med sophomore interested in MAYBE going the MD/PHD route with an emphasis in biostatistics, but I'm having difficulty imagining exactly what the job would be like with the intersection of the two degrees.

Why are you interested in it then?

1) Would an MD/PHD-stats person have a huge role in running clinical trials? Would they ever be involved in analysis?

Yes! This is huge. People do this and then some people do more statistical methods research.

I2) How would the PHD portion of the joint degree be different from an MPH joint degree in practice?

About 3-4 more years of research experience.

I3) Are there any fields of medicine better suited for a stats PHD? I can honestly see relevance in disciplines ranging from psychiatry to infectious diseases.

That sounds pretty accurate. Some faculty run their own studies in whatever discipline, some run statistical support centers, a very very flexible path.

 

[Lil Mick]

I'm planning to pursue mathematics/statistics for my PhD and future career. There aren't many of us--maybe one or two graduate with it a year in the US...

1) Would an MD/PHD-stats person have a huge role in running clinical trials? Would they ever be involved in analysis?
Yes, I'm planning to be involved in analyses and study design in clinical trials, as well as basic science research (hopefully genomics and population health).

2) How would the PHD portion of the joint degree be different from an MPH joint degree in practice?
The MPH will not teach you enough statistics to do your own analyses very easily. Typically, MPH students only learn analysis up to multiple regression. The emphasis is public health, not statistics. In statistics/mathematics, you'll learn how to create new ways to analyse data that you can test in clinical trials and basic science research (probability theory, generalized linear models, network-based methodology...). An MS in statistics would probably give you a good overview, though.

3) Are there any fields of medicine better suited for a stats PHD? I can honestly see relevance in disciplines ranging from psychiatry to infectious diseases.
Genetics, public health, and neuroscience are big areas in stats these days, so specialties relating to these areas of research might be a good starting point. I'm planning on a career in academics and government with medical service work abroad.

A few things to consider in undergrad:
-Most stats PhD programs require 3 semesters of calculus, linear algebra, several statistics courses (preferably with calculus), and a probability course.
-You'll probably need the GRE in addition to the MCAT (not GRE math subject exam, though). GRE math should be substantially over 700.
-There aren't a lot of schools offering this. U Minnesota, MUSC, U Miami, U Florida, UIC MSP, Stanford, and U of Chicago were the ones I found offering math/stats options. Bioinformatics is also a good option that's offered at more schools...

 

[tortuga87]

what exactly is the difference between bioinformatics and biostatistics?

 

[PfNO22]

what exactly is the difference between bioinformatics and biostatistics?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=difference+between+bioinformatics+and+biostatistics

 

[Lil Mick]

Bioinformatics uses computer science to gather data in biology (genomics technology, algorithms to compute things for statisticians). Biostatistics is the application and development of new methods of data analysis from the field of mathematics (usually have someone in computer science to help you write the programs you need to analyze data by the new method).

 

[tortuga87]

It seems like:

biostatician + learning some programming > bioinformatician

because you can develop more elegant methods with biostatistics?

 

[PfNO22]

It seems like:

biostatician + learning some programming > bioinformatician

because you can develop more elegant methods with biostatistics?

That seems pretty simplistic. For example, a biostatistician probably wouldn't have been a collaborator on FoldIt. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm

 

[DeadCactus]

Biostaticians develop tools for analyzing data.
Bioinformaticians develop tools for gathering data.

Generally people in one will have some grounding in the other, but it's silly to say one is better than the other...

 

[lex4599]

I'm currently a 2nd year MSPH in Biostatistics who deferred medical school to complete my masters degree. So here are the things that I've learned that I think would be most helpful:

1. Courses
The main difference between MSPH/MPH and PhD courses is that the masters degree will ultimately be in public health, and biostats is just a concentration. Therefore, as a masters student you will be required to take public health courses such as epidemiology, behavioral science and health education, health policy management, and environmental sciences. For PhD students, these courses are optional although most choose to take these anyways. In terms of biostat courses, masters and PhD students have the same coursework the first year, with the PhD student also having to take an additional class to prepare them to be teaching assistants in the following years. The second year, PhD students go on to take more advanced statistical and probability theory classes. They may also be required as part of their stipend package to TA introductory biostat classes.

2. Thesis
The masters thesis takes about a semester and a half to complete, and is significantly less involved than a PhD dissertation. The masters thesis is mainly explanation and application of a statistical model to a data set, whereas a PhD dissertation is expected to introduce new statistical theory and/or methods to a very specific area of research. Starting from about the third year of the PhD program, the students start to devote the majority of their time to working on their research and holding outside jobs.

3. Jobs
Overall, masters programs have more of an emphasis on application and practical experience, and PhD programs have more of an emphasis on theory. Jobs that prefer masters degrees to PhD degrees are the ones that need someone who is more involved in the entire research process and study design. This often requires the biostatistician to physically go into, for example, a hospital and monitor the accuracy of which data is being collected. PhD-level biostatisticians would be over-qualified to work in this type of role, so they serve mostly as the lead data analyst. Outside of academia, PhD degrees are more often hired by biostat consulting firms and pharmaceutical companies to handle complex data analysis. All in all, if you want to be involved in the actual study and not just the data analysis, masters degrees are probably the way to go.

4. MD/MPH or MD/PhD
When you're a biostatistician analyzing data, its always helpful, if not necessary, to understand the context of the problem you're working with. If you start working on a study about degenerative lumbar spine diseases, it would be really helpful if you already have working knowledge about the spine going into the project. However, if you don't have that knowledge, you can always do the background research yourself, although it takes a lot more energy and work. In this case, having an MD would definitely be a leg up. Also, if you hold an additional MD degree, you are most likely the one that is asking the research questions rather than working on other people's trials. This is a HUGE advantage because understanding your research backwards and forwards means that you are able to look at your data from multiple perspectives. For example, as a clinician you may know that certain biological mechanisms can affect your outcome and you actually know the statistical methods that allow you to identify and analyze those variables. On the other hand, a stastician without such an in-depth background in medicine and/or biology would not be able to reach the same conclusions.

5. Future
Many studies have pointed out that PhD programs don't place enough of an emphasis on application of theory. Case in point: I am currently working on a study that has a lot of missing data due to patients not coming in for follow-up. To perform an accurate analysis, I need to know how to account for this missing data. I go a PhD-level professor who gives me literature to read on some theories on how the missing data might affect my conclusions. I go to a masters-level professor who tells me exactly what to do with my data to get a more accurate conclusion. As the field evolves, biostatisticians need to have both a firm grasp of theory as well as how to apply it in real-life situations.

I hope all this helps. As you can tell, I'm very passionate about biostats and I really do wish there were more people that are interested in this field. Whatever path you decide, even if you decide to just pursue a masters degree, there is such a demand for biostats that your future will be bright now matter what.

 

[MSTPlease]

I personally am not getting a PhD in stats, but I did work for an MD/PhD when I was an undergrad who was a dermatologist whose research was skin cancer epidemiology. He was one of the archetypal 75/20/5 guys who spent most of his time doing research, two half days a week in general derm clinic, and taught a few lectures a semester. He was heavily involved in clinical trials and evaluating public health programs for skin cancer.

 

[prolixity29]

Bump.

I have a few questions regarding pursuing an MD/PhD in biostatistics... Really look forward to hearing your responses.

I am currently pursuing my MSPH in Biostatistics in the Philippines (though I am from the US). After finishing my degree, I will attend medical school in the US. Originally, I had decided to study biostatistics out-of-interest and because I received a scholarship for my glide year, but I am truly enjoying the theoretical coursework and am now considering studying biostatistics when I enroll in medical school. The applied problem areas also interest me deeply, particularly genomics and environmental health. Since I will already have a master's degree by the time I matriculate into med school, it seems that the next logical step would be to shoot for a PhD. The problem is though that I am a non-traditional student in my late 20's. I want to have a family and need to start making an income and this would prolong my non-income-generating years...

My eventual career goal in getting an MD/PhD would be either working/researching biostatistics while practicing in an academic hospital or consulting for industry (e.g. pharma or biotech) while practicing.

Questions:
1) Is pursuing an MD/PhD at my age impractical?

2) Can you do a fellowship in biostatistics that would get you to the same place as an MD/PhD? I have tried searching for "biostatistics fellowships" and the ones I have seen are for post-docs.

3) Assuming I did pursue a PhD, would I be able to bypass the master's level courses given my MSPH? If so and assuming that I work diligently and do not burn out, what is a reasonable estimate for the number of years I could shave off the dual degree? Could it be done in 6 years?

Thanks so much for your responses.

 

[dl2dp2]

Bump.

I have a few questions regarding pursuing an MD/PhD in biostatistics... Really look forward to hearing your responses.

I am currently pursuing my MSPH in Biostatistics in the Philippines (though I am from the US). After finishing my degree, I will attend medical school in the US. Originally, I had decided to study biostatistics out-of-interest and because I received a scholarship for my glide year, but I am truly enjoying the theoretical coursework and am now considering studying biostatistics when I enroll in medical school. The applied problem areas also interest me deeply, particularly genomics and environmental health. Since I will already have a master's degree by the time I matriculate into med school, it seems that the next logical step would be to shoot for a PhD. The problem is though that I am a non-traditional student in my late 20's. I want to have a family and need to start making an income and this would prolong my non-income-generating years...

My eventual career goal in getting an MD/PhD would be either working/researching biostatistics while practicing in an academic hospital or consulting for industry (e.g. pharma or biotech) while practicing.

Questions:
1) Is pursuing an MD/PhD at my age impractical?

2) Can you do a fellowship in biostatistics that would get you to the same place as an MD/PhD? I have tried searching for "biostatistics fellowships" and the ones I have seen are for post-docs.

3) Assuming I did pursue a PhD, would I be able to bypass the master's level courses given my MSPH? If so and assuming that I work diligently and do not burn out, what is a reasonable estimate for the number of years I could shave off the dual degree? Could it be done in 6 years?

Thanks so much for your responses.

People in your situations very often have similar questions. While I'd love to tell you that yes, great, go for what you truly love, I think it's much more helpful if you actually get some useful, albeit hard to swallow advice. Keep in mind my background (graduated MD/PhD with a PhD in a related field, machine learning, now in residency.).

(1) Honestly, I recommend against people doing an MD/PhD at the age of 30+, especially if you haven't cracked the pre-med reqs. It's at least 7-8s, tag on 3-6 years of residency, you are into your mid-40s. This is incompatible with what your life's goals are, which is to have children and a family in your 30s. The primary goal right now for you is to figure out what your goals are: is it to be a physician scientist at all cost, or is it just something nice that you might consider doing, and how important is a family to you.

(2) With an MD, you do a fellowship in a specific clinical discipline, with a component of research, and learn the tools required to do the research you need. Most MDs don't do a lot of statistics because they are focused on the clinical/logistic/which questions to ask aspect of a clinical trial, as opposed to trial methodology and statistical analysis.

(3) Generally speaking there's very little room for shaving off years in an MD/PhD. Do NOT expect that a masters degree, especially one from the Philippines, will carry you very far in a US PhD program.

Given that you want to eventually work in the US (which I'm not sure is true from what you said), you need to get US credentials as much and as soon as possible. In your case I think the best option is to apply for a PhD program in biostatistics in the US. For a variety of reasons, these programs are not very competitive in general, but this line of work is highly in demand right now and the salaries coming out are high, and there's no debt.