AOA accrediting standards

[andexterouss]

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I was doing some research on Touro-NY and I discovered that the parent school also has an MD school in NJ that is opening soon. Clicking on the school's website, I discovered that the school is very well funded and complete with it's own affiliate teaching hospital that houses all specialty departments that is dedicated to teaching their students. Great research facilties with big names ....even the website looks great and not sluggish etc....This all got me thinking about what standards the AOA uses to accredit schools. It seems it's faaar easier to open a DO school than an MD school. Is the LCME stricter or does it just have a higher standard?

I feel the AOA is short-changing us considering we pay similar if not higher tuition than a lot of private MD schools. Touro has 3 DO schools yet it does seem they invested much more into their MD school. Why the discrepancy?

PS: Not trying to start a MD vs. DO war. Just wanna know if AOA is looking out for our best interest.

 

[jp104]

I was doing some research on Touro-NY and I discovered that the parent school also has an MD school in NJ that is opening soon. Clicking on the school's website, I discovered that the school is very well funded and complete with it's own affiliate teaching hospital that houses all specialty departments that is dedicated to teaching their students. Great research facilties with big names ....even the website looks great and not sluggish etc....This all got me thinking about what standards the AOA uses to accredit schools. It seems it's faaar easier to open a DO school than an MD school. Is the LCME stricter or does it just have a higher standard?

I feel the AOA is short-changing us considering we pay similar if not higher tuition than a lot of private MD schools. Touro has 3 DO schools yet it does seem they invested much more into their MD school. Why the discrepancy?

PS: Not trying to start a MD vs. DO war. Just wanna know if AOA is looking out for our best interest.

LCME has WAY higher standards than COCA. AOA doesn't have anything to do with accreditation. I believe LCME standards are that a hospital be attached and have enough spots to house their students on rotations amongst other things. You can check out all of their requirements on the LCME website.

 

[DrMidlife]

LCME has WAY higher standards than COCA. AOA doesn't have anything to do with accreditation. I believe LCME standards are that a hospital be attached and have enough spots to house their students on rotations amongst other things. You can check out all of their requirements on the LCME website.

There are LCME-accredited schools without an attached hospital, such as MCW.

But, true, all the requirements of LCME and COCA are well published.

One thing to know is that an existing, accredited school can open a branch campus or add seats (like AZCOM) without having to do a full fresh accreditation. So you can see a LECOM-Seton Hill open lightning fast, whereas new schools like PNWU and Hofstra and FIU take years and years of fed/state/local negotiation. It's an anomaly to have Touro opening an MD school, and I don't know whether Touro benefits as an MD institution via their DO accreditation status.

 

[jp104]

There are LCME-accredited schools without an attached hospital, such as MCW.

But, true, all the requirements of LCME and COCA are well published.

One thing to know is that an existing, accredited school can open a branch campus or add seats (like AZCOM) without having to do a full fresh accreditation. So you can see a LECOM-Seton Hill open lightning fast, whereas new schools like PNWU and Hofstra and FIU take years and years of fed/state/local negotiation. It's an anomaly to have Touro opening an MD school, and I don't know whether Touro benefits as an MD institution via their DO accreditation status.

MCW still has an official teaching hospital at Froedtert. They fulfill the following requirement of LCME accreditation:

ER-7. A hospital or other clinical facility that serves as a major site for medical student education must have appropriate instructional facilities and information resources.

Appropriate instructional facilities include areas for individual student study, for conferences, and for large group presentations (lectures). Sufficient information resources, including library holdings and access to other library systems, must either be present in the facility or readily available in the immediate vicinity. A sufficient number of computers are needed that allow access to the Internet and to other educational software. Call rooms and lockers, or other secure space to store personal belongings, should be available for student use.

Unfortunately many DO schools use the preceptorship model for a good portion of their clinical education which is inconsistent in quality.

 

[andexterouss]

MCW still has an official teaching hospital at Froedtert. They fulfill the following requirement of LCME accreditation:

ER-7. A hospital or other clinical facility that serves as a major site for medical student education must have appropriate instructional facilities and information resources.

Appropriate instructional facilities include areas for individual student study, for conferences, and for large group presentations (lectures). Sufficient information resources, including library holdings and access to other library systems, must either be present in the facility or readily available in the immediate vicinity. A sufficient number of computers are needed that allow access to the Internet and to other educational software. Call rooms and lockers, or other secure space to store personal belongings, should be available for student use.

Unfortunately many DO schools use the preceptorship model for a good portion of their clinical education which is inconsistent in quality.

Interesting. I'm sure Touro-NY would love to have their own/or affiliated teaching hospital if only COCA mandated that all DO schools have one. Instead they got one for their MD school and we are left to rotate with carrib students at community hospitals.

 

[jp104]

Interesting. I'm sure Touro-NY would love to have their own/or affiliated teaching hospital if only COCA mandated that all DO schools have one. Instead they got one for their MD school and we are left to rotate with carrib students at community hospitals.

Although Touro-NY doesn't have it's own teaching hospital I thought I read that they lined up some really solid rotations. I don't know if you're a current student or are applying, but I'd check with someone at the school about it.

The dean for Touro was the former dean of clinical studies at my school (NYCOM) who set up our rotation sites. I'm sure he has solid ties with the medical community in NY 🙂

 

[andexterouss]

Although Touro-NY doesn't have it's own teaching hospital I thought I read that they lined up some really solid rotations. I don't know if you're a current student or are applying, but I'd check with someone at the school about it.

The dean for Touro was the former dean of clinical studies at my school (NYCOM) who set up our rotation sites. I'm sure he has solid ties with the medical community in NY 🙂

Just got accepted.According to the packet we received, our rotations are at Bronx Lebanon Hospital, Interfaith Medical Center, New Parkway Hospital, St. John's Episcopal, Staten Island Hospital, and Trinitas Hospital. Any idea how good they are? I know Ross students do rotate at 3 of those hospitals listed.

 

[stonewall22]

I was doing some research on Touro-NY and I discovered that the parent school also has an MD school in NJ that is opening soon. Clicking on the school's website, I discovered that the school is very well funded and complete with it's own affiliate teaching hospital that houses all specialty departments that is dedicated to teaching their students. Great research facilties with big names ....even the website looks great and not sluggish etc....This all got me thinking about what standards the AOA uses to accredit schools. It seems it's faaar easier to open a DO school than an MD school. Is the LCME stricter or does it just have a higher standard?

I feel the AOA is short-changing us considering we pay similar if not higher tuition than a lot of private MD schools. Touro has 3 DO schools yet it does seem they invested much more into their MD school. Why the discrepancy?

PS: Not trying to start a MD vs. DO war. Just wanna know if AOA is looking out for our best interest.

Actually, they will be sharing a hospital with UMDNJ, so it's not quite their own, but certainly a great hospital.

 

[stonewall22]

LCME has WAY higher standards than COCA. AOA doesn't have anything to do with accreditation. I believe LCME standards are that a hospital be attached and have enough spots to house their students on rotations amongst other things. You can check out all of their requirements on the LCME website.

Michigan State allopathic program uses a similar model as DO program, their students are farmed out to community hospitals across the state. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Drexel has it's own hospital either.

 

[Medstudent85]

OP , I think it's pretty well known that a U.S Allopathic School has better resources than a U.S D.O school. Unless your passion is OMT, the choice is clear for all of us about which school to go to if given the choice. What matters tho, is that despite all difficulties, medical students who do complete either an D.O or M.D residency are about as equally well prepared as the training they received , no matter what accreditaion program owns its rights. Therefore, this is one of the issues where the end justifies the means, because it truly won't matter once you are practicing

 

[scpod]

....I believe LCME standards are that a hospital be attached and have enough spots to house their students on rotations amongst other things.....

No, there doesn't have to be an attached hospital, nor does there have to be a cetain number of spots locally. Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few LCME schools that don't have one. Take this quote from FSU's medical school as an example:

"As a community-based medical school, the Florida State University College of Medicine provides third- and fourth-year clinical training at regional medical school campuses around the state through affiliations with local physicians, ambulatory care facilities and hospitals."

They have students in Sarasota, Orlando, Daytona Beach, Pensacola and Ft. Pierce in addition to Tallahassee. And, they have preceptor based rotations as well as hospital rotations.

 

[andexterouss]

Actually, they will be sharing a hospital with UMDNJ, so it's not quite their own, but certainly a great hospital.

Hackensack University Medical Center was chartered by Touro (MD) for its students. They are also in the process of purchasing the Pascack Valley Hospital.UMDNJ have their own teaching hospital. But you are right in that UMDNJ students also rotate at HUMC.


The good about having your own hospital is that students have mentors in each medical department that can guide them about different medical specialties and help them plan ahead in terms of research, letters of recommendation etc. Also it gives them a chance to try out different specialties and see which one best fits for them.

Now some MD schools may not have their own but that's far from the norm and most will charter a hospital until they build theirs.

 

[MossPoh]

There are multiple MD schools that don't have an attached or university hospital I think. As posted above, FSU is the first to come to mind. Tallahassee memorial is located about 4 or 5 miles away, but it isn't a university hospital. Another Tallahassee they rotate at isn't either.

Unless Touro went out and bought a hospital, I think it might just be great negotiating skills for access.

 

[beachblonde]

Just got accepted.According to the packet we received, our rotations are at Bronx Lebanon Hospital, Interfaith Medical Center, New Parkway Hospital, St. John's Episcopal, Staten Island Hospital, and Trinitas Hospital. Any idea how good they are? I know Ross students do rotate at 3 of those hospitals listed.

I wouldn't stress too much about the Ross students at the hospitals. People got all up in arms (especially certain NYC allopathic schools) about the whole thing, but, they're not the ones doing your training. They are also paying a chunk of money for the privilege to rotate there.

I can't speak for the hospitals, though.

Michigan State allopathic program uses a similar model as DO program, their students are farmed out to community hospitals across the state. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Drexel has it's own hospital either.

Drexel has a partnership with Hahnemann University Hospital; I believe Tenet technically owns the hospital, but Drexel uses it as its main hospital and base for clerkships. According to a friend who goes there, the hospital is a 30 minute shuttle ride away from the med school campus, though.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Michigan State allopathic program uses a similar model as DO program, their students are farmed out to community hospitals across the state. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Drexel has it's own hospital either.

MSU has both allo and osteo programs so that makes sense.

Drexel's med school used to be Hahnemann MC/women's MC so they are pretty closely linked to Hahnemann hospital but because of finances way back in the day they are now united as drexel.

No, there doesn't have to be an attached hospital, nor does there have to be a cetain number of spots locally. Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few LCME schools that don't have one. Take this quote from FSU's medical school as an example:

"As a community-based medical school, the Florida State University College of Medicine provides third- and fourth-year clinical training at regional medical school campuses around the state through affiliations with local physicians, ambulatory care facilities and hospitals."

They have students in Sarasota, Orlando, Daytona Beach, Pensacola and Ft. Pierce in addition to Tallahassee. And, they have preceptor based rotations as well as hospital rotations.

Most allo schools will have an attached hospital. A lot of this has to do with the fact that they have been around a lot longer than most of the DO schools. So way back in the day, med schools sprouted wherever there was a hospital. A lot of the new med schools, FSU etc, were linked to already established universities that dont have an attached hospital.

One way or another, wherever you go, you will probably have 1 or 2 rotations that are not at the main hospital. For example, your pediatrics rotation will probably have a community/private practice month. So you will probably go out into the community with that. Family med doesnt lend itself to being in the hospital so that may also be outside of the hospital. The only problems I see with multiple sites is 1) you have to get used to the charting/computer system at the new place and 2) if you have to travel outside of the city that is a pain to have to find housing etc