AOA - grades, etc Feedback?

[waterbottle10]

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I often see on those NBME reports or stuff like that that says AOA does matter. Program directors do take it into consideration. However, do you guys think it's worth going for that AOA if it sacrifices research time? [assuming can only get one or the other]

Currently, I don't know if I should go for AOA [still some time so who knows if I even will get it if I try] or just stop trying, just go for Pass, and instead spend my time doing research? [maybe get a clinical publication, currently have 0 pubs].

My current goal is to get into a top Internal medicine residency in NYC. [And subspecialize aftewards]

 

[peteB]

I have a friend who matched into a competitive NYC internal medicine residency this year. He told me that AOA made a big difference for him and almost everyone asked about it.

 

[waterbottle10]

I have a friend who matched into a competitive NYC internal medicine residency this year. He told me that AOA made a big difference for him and almost everyone asked about it.

Ouch, shouldve tried harder last year

 

[KinasePro]

I know multiple people who matched at Columbia IM without AOA. FWIW they were all from top 25 schools.

 

[FSU2013]

I often see on those NBME reports or stuff like that that says AOA does matter. Program directors do take it into consideration. However, do you guys think it's worth going for that AOA if it sacrifices research time? [assuming can only get one or the other]

Currently, I don't know if I should go for AOA [still some time so who knows if I even will get it if I try] or just stop trying, just go for Pass, and instead spend my time doing research? [maybe get a clinical publication, currently have 0 pubs].

My current goal is to get into a top Internal medicine residency in NYC. [And subspecialize aftewards]

The short answer is both. You can and should try to do both. I've been told that AOA seems to matter the most in IM. I'm applying EM and I can tell you that I got an interview at a very strong program early - all they had was my app, PS and 1 rec letter - no transcripts or step scores. My thinking is that they must have given me an invite based only on the fact that I have AOA.

Good luck.

Edit: Obviously, you can match most anywhere with almost anything. One single factor is rarely a make or break deal - most places look at your app as a whole (unless you get filtered out). That being said, both AOA and research both help.

 

[waterbottle10]

I see... Thanks for the comments guys

 

[peteB]

I know multiple people who matched at Columbia IM without AOA. FWIW they were all from top 25 schools.

The top 25 school part probably did it for them. The guy I'm referring to is from a bottom of the barrel school. (my school)

 

[Lanolin]

AOA is out of reach for a lot of students. Even for students who are nominated but aren't elected. You have to be in the top 20% of the class to get into AOA, and after that each chapter elects their members for different reasons. Some do Grades+Step above all others. Some do research, volunteering, social perception, etc... all of which may end up hosing you in the end.

Keep trying to do what you want to do and if it works out for you then good job. If not, it really won't affect your ability to match into a residency program. Will it help? Sure.. Is it required, no.

 

[theshellyb]

Currently, I don't know if I should go for AOA [still some time so who knows if I even will get it if I try] or just stop trying, just go for Pass, and instead spend my time doing research? [maybe get a clinical publication, currently have 0 pubs].

Echoing what Lanolin said, I think I would say, go for the research, because AOA is such a crapshoot/getting in the top 20% of any given med school class is no small feat. If you knew you were already in the running for AOA and you knew that the time you devoted to research would pull you out of that spot, my advice might be different. But you definitely need research for competitive IM programs, and can still get interviews without AOA if your app is strong enough.

/Just a 2nd year, grain of salt, etc.

 

[Lanolin]

AOA nominations at my school require a GPA >3.75. During the actual election no one sees your actual GPA or Step score. Kinda bogus but whatever. Lots of good candidates go rejected even though they were 40+ pts above other students on step scores. Same research and grades.

 

[Infexious]

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[KinasePro]

AOA has recently made a push to integrate more community service and EC activities into the membership selection criteria

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think this is going to slowly chip away at the prestige of AOA election. At my institution I've already seen remarkably gifted students passed up because they don't fit these newer holistic criteria. It makes me question whether AOA means much when seriously impactful students are being passed up for more "well-rounded" ones.

 

[DrSnips]

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think this is going to slowly chip away at the prestige of AOA election. At my institution I've already seen remarkably gifted students passed up because they don't fit these newer holistic criteria. It makes me question whether AOA means much when seriously impactful students are being passed up for more "well-rounded" ones.

This actually raises an important question. What is the point of AOA? Is it to tell us what we already know? If I see someone with all honors, step 1 = 260, and AOA, should they get to say "I have 3 major academic accomplishments right there"? They don't have 3 accomplishments there--they have 2 (grades and step). The AOA just came about because of the other 2.

So really what is the point of AOA if it doesn't include SOMETHING besides information programs already know? I'm not saying that something should be peer interaction or volunteer work. Frankly, most ECs show nothing other than that you are willing to sacrifice your free time for a resume booster. But AOA in its present state doesn't seem to tell you much more than class rank. </rant>

 

[FSU2013]

This actually raises an important question. What is the point of AOA? Is it to tell us what we already know? If I see someone with all honors, step 1 = 260, and AOA, should they get to say "I have 3 major academic accomplishments right there"? They don't have 3 accomplishments there--they have 2 (grades and step). The AOA just came about because of the other 2.

So really what is the point of AOA if it doesn't include SOMETHING besides information programs already know? I'm not saying that something should be peer interaction or volunteer work. Frankly, most ECs show nothing other than that you are willing to sacrifice your free time for a resume booster. But AOA in its present state doesn't seem to tell you much more than class rank. </rant>

Because you aren't going to put your Step scores and GPA on your CV - you're going to list AOA.

 

[DrSnips]

Because you aren't going to put your Step scores and GPA on your CV - you're going to list AOA.

Funny you bring that up...

so I'm currently a MS3 looking to take a year off for research and have been looking for labs, and i've found that some PIs have requested that I send them my step 1 score report... is that normal or a good idea? I've been told it's better to be cautious regarding who you share your scores with...

Why? I had mine on my CV.

 

[KinasePro]

This actually raises an important question. What is the point of AOA? Is it to tell us what we already know? If I see someone with all honors, step 1 = 260, and AOA, should they get to say "I have 3 major academic accomplishments right there"? They don't have 3 accomplishments there--they have 2 (grades and step). The AOA just came about because of the other 2.

So really what is the point of AOA if it doesn't include SOMETHING besides information programs already know? I'm not saying that something should be peer interaction or volunteer work. Frankly, most ECs show nothing other than that you are willing to sacrifice your free time for a resume booster. But AOA in its present state doesn't seem to tell you much more than class rank. </rant>

You're right, this is the central question here. Your comment in bold is exactly what I believe will detract from the prestige of AOA if it becomes part of the election process.

Put another way, if your honor society is passing up the future leaders in medicine because they didn't have these (mostly) menial resume boosters, then what kind of honor society is that? If I was on the AOA selection committee, I'd want the girl with 260+, all H's, and neurosurgery device patents instead of the 240+, H/HP who was did every menial EC possible through M1-M3. But in reality, the latter is getting elected these days. That's perfectly fine if that is the goal of AOA, but IMO it makes it less prestigious.

 

[FSU2013]

Funny you bring that up...

I'm talking long term. AOA is obviously nothing more than a feather in your cap. In 10-15 years, if you're applying for a job, I doubt people would want to see your USMLEs. You still be including AOA under awards. Anyways, it's kind of a moot point - it is what it is, and we can't change it from this end.

Also, this basically only matters in academics. Hospitals seem more concerned with finding warm bodies that will work for what they think is fair and not make waves.

 

[Infexious]

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[duckie99]

I have a friend who matched into a competitive NYC internal medicine residency this year. He told me that AOA made a big difference for him and almost everyone asked about it.

so you're saying the interviewer who read that person's file and therefore knew he was in AOA before he walked through the door then asked "are you in AOA?"...


AOA can make a difference to some extent at the top programs. It is more important the more competitive the field you are applying for. It will help more with decent neurosurgery residencies with 2 spots than even for top IM with 45 spots.

That being said, OP, I don't understand how "going for AOA" would sacrifice research time. What? You're simply not going to study and take lower grades? Yeah right. Just study hard, volunteer when you can, and research what you want. Don't focus so much on one aspect of your app because residencies look at the entire thing. You don't have the be the best of the best to match into good programs.

 

[peteB]

so you're saying the interviewer who read that person's file and therefore knew he was in AOA before he walked through the door then asked "are you in AOA?"...

I didn't mean that the interviewer asked him if he was in AOA, sorry. What I meant was the interviewer made a remark about his AOA which made it clear to him that AOA was important to the interviewer. The AOA was consistently commented on, whereas other things on his application were not.

 

[KinasePro]

I would be cautious with your assumption that the "girl with a 260+" is more likely to become a future leader of medicine than the person with a 240 and more EC's. The argument could be made that the person with more ECs (depending on what they are of course) might be a stronger candidate for the "future leader of medicine" position than the possibly non-social girl with a 260 that has never held a leadership position or worked with organizing groups of her colleagues towards a common goal. I am not a person with a 260 so I am being up front with my possible bias but I think the argument should be well received regardless.

Lots of assumptions in bolded text too, though.

It boils down to whether you think EC's or academic performance/ research impact are better predictors of future success in medicine. My bias is with academic/research performance, as I've noticed that EC leadership positions are, more often than not, just for decoration.

 

[projectlogic]

Just for clarification AOA is very generous in the fact that they allow institutions to choose how they pick their members (once the basic AOA requirements have been met). At my institution we do a ppt presentation with all current AOA members regarding the potential candidates with their CV highlights/board scores/GPA/etc... There is discussion from attendings/residents/current students/administration regarding each candidate and anyone brings up good point or negative interactions they have had with said person. After all is said and done for all potential candidates a straight up vote is held with all current AOA members present at the selection event. No one vote has any more weight than another.

With all that being said I have spoken to AOA members at other institutions where it has been all board scores or all administrative picks. AOA has recently made a push to integrate more community service and EC activities into the membership selection criteria so I think those places that currently select from USMLE scores alone (or any single criteria for that matter) are not necessarily going in line with what the national office is trying to promote at the moment.

Reminds me of this youtube video..

[youtube]Dkv0KCR3Yiw[/youtube]