APA no longer enforcing diversity criteria for accreditation

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This part of the letter seems to contradict that, though:
"Programs will continue to adhere to accreditation standards specific to professional competency and curriculumin psychology where the educational benefit of diversity is a core tenet. These accreditation standards includethe obligation for accredited programs to engage in offering teaching that indicates respect for andunderstanding of cultural and individual differences to promote the provision of quality psychological servicesto all individuals."

I am confused.
 
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futureapppsy2 said:
This part of the letter seems to contradict that, though:
"Programs will continue to adhere to accreditation standards specific to professional competency and curriculumin psychology where the educational benefit of diversity is a core tenet. These accreditation standards includethe obligation for accredited programs to engage in offering teaching that indicates respect for andunderstanding of cultural and individual differences to promote the provision of quality psychological servicesto all individuals."

I am confused.
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The line two lines later (for some reason I can’t copy paste from the letter on my phone) seems clear to me that the diversity component of training is downgraded from a measured standard to a flakey value that’s not going to be part of accreditation review.
 
JustNoticing said:
Many of these standards never appeared to be applied in any meaningful way to begin with. APA has had no issues with accrediting programs in schools with anti-LGBT lifestyle agreements or title IX waivers to discriminate, for example.
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You mean footnote 4 not title ix I think. In fairness APA did push back on footnote 4 once. The, I believe Bush II, administration told them they if they don’t like footnote 4 they don’t need to be empowered to accredit programs.
 
MCParent said:
The line two lines later (for some reason I can’t copy paste from the letter on my phone) seems clear to me that the diversity component of training is downgraded from a measured standard to a flakey value that’s not going to be part of accreditation review.
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Maybe but they include specific mention of the curriculum, which seems to indicate that some coursework will still be required. My guess is that they have no clue what they are going to do here and are writing this letter in a vague, unclear, and non-committal way because of that.
 
This unfortunately seems necessary for APA to continue to offer accreditation to federal internship programs. This has been a big topic of discussion at my VA. We are doing all these gymnastics to be able offer didactics on diversity focused topics and I know of other sites that have already pulled all their diversity training even innocuous seeming things like "Addressing MST with Male Veterans."

And if we don't have federal internships I don't think we can offer any graduate training at scale anymore. An overwhelming amount of psychologists get their internship and fellowship training at VA alone and then you have BoP, IHS, DoD, federally funded positions at academic medical centers and rural hospitals.

I hate it but I think APA made the only call they could with this.
 
Grenth said:
This unfortunately seems necessary for APA to continue to offer accreditation to federal internship programs. This has been a big topic of discussion at my VA. We are doing all these gymnastics to be able offer didactics on diversity focused topics and I know of other sites that have already pulled all their diversity training even innocuous seeming things like "Addressing MST with Male Veterans."

And if we don't have federal internships I don't think we can offer any graduate training at scale anymore. An overwhelming amount of psychologists get their internship and fellowship training at VA alone and then you have BoP, IHS, DoD, federally funded positions at academic medical centers and rural hospitals.

I hate it but I think APA made the only call they could with this.
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I think in the end it would have been necessary. But it does come after I heard people from APA talk about how they were going to push back on anything like this, back before the election and just after it. And surprise to no one, instead of that they preemptively complied (which people should learn will not save anyone).
 
Grenth said:
This unfortunately seems necessary for APA to continue to offer accreditation to federal internship programs. This has been a big topic of discussion at my VA. We are doing all these gymnastics to be able offer didactics on diversity focused topics and I know of other sites that have already pulled all their diversity training even innocuous seeming things like "Addressing MST with Male Veterans."

And if we don't have federal internships I don't think we can offer any graduate training at scale anymore. An overwhelming amount of psychologists get their internship and fellowship training at VA alone and then you have BoP, IHS, DoD, federally funded positions at academic medical centers and rural hospitals.

I hate it but I think APA made the only call they could with this.
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I agree. Diversity is important, but it'd also be worse to close all of these programs and limit training opportunities. It's not the programs' fault and this may eventually extend beyond federal training sites (you've seen how universities are getting challenged on DEI as well).
 
cara susanna said:
I agree. Diversity is important, but it'd also be worse to close all of these programs and limit training opportunities. It's not the programs' fault and this may eventually extend beyond federal training sites (you've seen how universities are getting challenged on DEI as well).
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The problem is that when you try to appease these people they just ask for more. Required courses in Christian counseling, which requires hiring someone from Liberty, coming next.
 
So if you do any work related to "gender ideology," are you essentially enemy number one now? Unrelated but related, i have colleagues who are physicians that work in two of the largest non profit systems in my state (Ohio Health and Cleveland Clinic). The new EO from trump is now effectively precluding them from getting PSLF, which they were absolutely banking on, because both are non profits that do gender affirming care for minors.
 
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This is not surprising despite a lot of us thinking APA would try to push back on anti-DEI measures. The threat from the current administration is real… it’s also why I think several public and private universities have disbanded their DEI offices. My current and future institution both have essentially made the calculus that they would rather have research and training continue at all (even with mental gymnastics to “remove” DEI) than have it shut down entirely as part of a petty, anti-intellectual culture war.
 
MCParent said:
I think in the end it would have been necessary. But it does come after I heard people from APA talk about how they were going to push back on anything like this, back before the election and just after it. And surprise to no one, instead of that they preemptively complied (which people should learn will not save anyone).
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I wish APA had a spine. They don't earn my dues. I did just see the total match number for this cycle and without the BoP and related sites it was 87% matched after both phases versus 94% last year. And that doesn't account for students who pulled their applications. That may have spooked them.

But I agree with you APA shouldn't have complied in advance.
 
MCParent said:
The problem is that when you try to appease these people they just ask for more. Required courses in Christian counseling, which requires hiring someone from Liberty, coming next.
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I agree, but I'm not sure what APA could do other than send a strongly-worded letter. Also, is this really "in advance"? This programming has already been banned from federal sites.
 
MCParent said:
The problem is that when you try to appease these people they just ask for more. Required courses in Christian counseling, which requires hiring someone from Liberty, coming next.
Click to expand...
And that there- to quote the famous fictional dane- is the rub. We can sleep on all this and dream of better days, doing along with things now in the hope that appeasement will put an end to the attacks, or (as did the dane) refuse to put the dagger into our own hearts because what happens if we do is likely more frightening than what happens if we don't. As a cisgendered, white, upper middle class male is easy to say "I'll be ok, just wait it out." But the behavioral professional in me allows me to see that this is just a process of shaping and systematic desensitization. It may have to all be shut down before it can be made anew into a better form. People will definitely suffer, but that suffering is now most likely inevitable, and that suffering will mean less will suffer in the future. Bleak days ahead for all but a select few.
 
cara susanna said:
I agree, but I'm not sure what APA could do other than send a strongly-worded letter. Also, is this really "in advance"? This programming has already been banned from federal sites.
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Yeah, their hands are somewhat tied. I'm not sure what option they had other than lengthy lawsuit procedures and putting trainees in a sort of limbo state at the moment.
 
MCParent said:
The problem is that when you try to appease these people they just ask for more. Required courses in Christian counseling, which requires hiring someone from Liberty, coming next.
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Anyone with even a cursory understanding of christofascism knows this to be highly accurate.

The current administration is already pushing for more/all states to display the 10 Commandments in K-12. It was NEVER about “religious freedom”, but if left unchallenged, psych programs could eventually be forced to promote Conversion Therapy and worse, under the guise of “education”.
 
WisNeuro said:
Yeah, their hands are somewhat tied. I'm not sure what option they had other than lengthy lawsuit procedures and putting trainees in a sort of limbo state at the moment.
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I think it’s clear that their hands will be tied. A statement included in the memo that the change is something other than just rushing to kiss the ring would at least be better. Especially since APA has pledged institutional change since Hoffman that never materialized.
 
I'm no defender of APA, but if you read the guidance carefully, it's almost entirely tied to existing expectations/standards for recruitment and retention of students and faculty from diverse backgrounds. This is where the rubber hits the road for the EOs and the VA and other federal training sites (primarily internships and postdocs, but also as applied to practica placements in VAs) They are not proposing to suspend standards for actual training in culturally competent care delivery; at least not anywhere that I can see.
 
1 ) I think education in diversity is similar to education in ethics:

Information is not going to transform an unethical person into an ethical person. Information is not going to transform a bigot into a normal caring person.

2) Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia

3)
www.goodreads.com

A quote by Lyndon B. Johnson

If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to loo...
www.goodreads.com
www.nytimes.com

A Psychiatrist Invited to Yale Spoke of Fantasies of Shooting White People (Published 2021)

The Yale School of Medicine said the tone and content of a lecture by Dr. Aruna Khilanani, who has a private practice in New York, were “antithetical to the values of the school.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

​

 
PsyDr said:
1 ) I think education in diversity is similar to education in ethics:

Information is not going to transform an unethical person into an ethical person. Information is not going to transform a bigot into a normal caring person.

2) Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia

3)
www.goodreads.com

A quote by Lyndon B. Johnson

If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to loo...
www.goodreads.com
www.nytimes.com

A Psychiatrist Invited to Yale Spoke of Fantasies of Shooting White People (Published 2021)

The Yale School of Medicine said the tone and content of a lecture by Dr. Aruna Khilanani, who has a private practice in New York, were “antithetical to the values of the school.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

​

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I used to think this too, but some of the smaller town people I've met have really done wonders in shedding some of their homophobic attitudes after exposure to queer friends. Granted, they had to be willing to challenge their own preconceived notions to begin with, which isn't exactly a given.

I will admit there's a vast difference from people who were simply taught "gay people are the reason you're poor" and those running the grift. The last group are just demons who need to be deplatformed/scorned.


Edit: Ineffective training is ineffective though

I'll die on the hill that simply taking someone who may have homophobic attitudes to Boystown/NothHalstead in Chicago will be more effective then having them sit through PowerPoint slides. We know how to make good pizza and cocktails (or mocktails), everyone can appreciate those.
 
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MCParent said:
I think in the end it would have been necessary. But it does come after I heard people from APA talk about how they were going to push back on anything like this, back before the election and just after it. And surprise to no one, instead of that they preemptively complied (which people should learn will not save anyone).
Click to expand...

So, are we thinking Chuck Schumer should be the next APA president?
 
cara susanna said:
There's a petition against this now too. Again, I don't know if people are understanding that if APA doesn't have more flexibility around DEI, federal training sites will lose accreditation.
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Yeah, there are a lot of people who really do not understand the situation. They'd rather the APA push back in a symbolic way and screw over a few cohorts of trainees, than essentially keep doing what they've always been doing with no real change to training while this plays out in courts.
 
cara susanna said:
There's a petition against this now too. Again, I don't know if people are understanding that if APA doesn't have more flexibility around DEI, federal training sites will lose accreditation.
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COA is also a federal contractor so may also affect their ability to accredit programs in general. I get the ire given APA's long history of capitulation, but this is a fight they probably cannot win.
 
R. Matey said:
COA is also a federal contractor so may also affect their ability to accredit programs in general. I get the ire given APA's long history of capitulation, but this is a fight they probably cannot win.
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Not only can they likely not win at the moment, the potential collateral damage to trainees is immense. I can guarantee that this move was made after a lot of consultation with legal counsel. They don't have a lot of great options at the moment. This wasn't capitulation, this is picking battles. This won't be won in a single battle, but a lot of people can lose in this battle if they went another way.
 
I understand that CoA’s decision was unavoidable. My concern is less with the decision itself and more with how the APA chose to communicate throughout this event. Immediate stakeholders—individuals volunteering their time within governance—were informed of CoA’s decision at the same time as the general public. When immediate stakeholders investing in the Association feel betrayed because they were the last group the APA addressed regarding the rationale, implications, and necessity of this decision, trust breaks down. APA members who aren’t involved in governance don’t have a favorable view of the Association to begin with, and this approach to communication (or lack thereof) leaves those who have supported the Association feeling disrespected and disenfranchised. The way this situation was handled further undermines confidence in APA across the board and alienates the individuals who serve as the Association’s ambassadors. Imo, creating fractures within the org doesn't bode well for the next 4 years.
 
superweeniejr said:
I understand that CoA’s decision was unavoidable. My concern is less with the decision itself and more with how the APA chose to communicate throughout this event. Immediate stakeholders—individuals volunteering their time within governance—were informed of CoA’s decision at the same time as the general public. When immediate stakeholders investing in the Association feel betrayed because they were the last group the APA addressed regarding the rationale, implications, and necessity of this decision, trust breaks down. APA members who aren’t involved in governance don’t have a favorable view of the Association to begin with, and this approach to communication (or lack thereof) leaves those who have supported the Association feeling disrespected and disenfranchised. The way this situation was handled further undermines confidence in APA across the board and alienates the individuals who serve as the Association’s ambassadors. Imo, creating fractures within the org doesn't bode well for the next 4 years.
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I don't know, I've been involved in national and state level governance, and regularly interact with people actively involved in both. I'm not getting this sense of "disrespect and disenfranchisement" from a single person I've talked to recently in regards to APA. With all that is going on, seems like a poor place to direct one's ire. Coincidentally, probably a big part of the problem for what is going on currently.
 
superweeniejr said:
… The way this situation was handled further undermines confidence in APA across the board and alienates the individuals who serve as the Association’s ambassadors. Imo, creating fractures within the org doesn't bode well for the next 4 years.
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We live in an era where Dr. Oz is the head of CMS, and the head of HHS is a heroin addict who makes his living from suing vaccine manufacturers.

Do you really want less of a voice? Jordan Peterson lives in the US now.
 
MCParent said:
Do we want to take bets on when the APA sees a battle it does want to fight?

I’m hoping the inevitable curriculum change demands spur them onto something.
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Unfortunately, their most pitched battles occur out of the spotlight. I actually do think they've done a good job at advocating and lobbying on the reimbursement/CMS/RVU side of things, all things considered. No one sees this, though. We probably have more info on it in neuro due to Tony P being a key player in this over the years. Personally, I wish they'd step back from the advocacy piece on societal issues and redouble guild specific issues, especially in the cluster**** we currently have politically.
 
It’s an interesting slippery slope. I see why people are upset over what APA did given its troubled history. While I think comparing the US now to Germany in the 1930s is a bit of a false comparison, the encroachment of the current administration into all aspects of daily life is becoming increasingly alarming. In talking to some ECPs and trainees who are pissed at APA for ceding to the Trump administration, I think most of the sting comes from longstanding issues with the organization that are magnified by this political microcosm. I also don’t think most folks understand how serious it could be to take a stand and lose… the odds are not in our favor right now, and at minimum this fight needs to be held off until 2026 when there is hopefully some realignment in Congress.

I sadly agree that the APA had essentially no choice unless it wanted to risk its ability to regulate training standards and by proxy throw a whole generation of trainees under the bus. Now is not the time to put a giant target on the back of psychologists…
 
WisNeuro said:
Personally, I wish they'd step back from the advocacy piece on societal issues and redouble guild specific issues, especially in the cluster**** we currently have politically.
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our profession has a bunch of ties to political issues they fixate on for clout though (the existence of trans people, conversion therapy).

If the criteria is “don’t get the profession in trouble,” then there is no line. They will threaten to remove the APA’s ability to accredit programs.

This specific issue was probably a loss. I would have written the letter to say “we have to comply with this, and here is the decades of research on bias in hiring that it contradicts.”
 
MCParent said:
our profession has a bunch of ties to political issues they fixate on for clout though (the existence of trans people, conversion therapy).

If the criteria is “don’t get the profession in trouble,” then there is no line. They will threaten to remove the APA’s ability to accredit programs.

This specific issue was probably a loss. I would have written the letter to say “we have to comply with this, and here is the decades of research on bias in hiring that it contradicts.”
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Sure, but then they invite the fight now when the admin wants them to, possibly leading to more in depth scrutiny. They could do what they did, release a statement with this research later and accomplish more. This is a long-term war, and when and where to spend political capital is an important consideration. Now, how much capital APA has to begin with is another debate.
 
WisNeuro said:
Unfortunately, their most pitched battles occur out of the spotlight. I actually do think they've done a good job at advocating and lobbying on the reimbursement/CMS/RVU side of things, all things considered. No one sees this, though. We probably have more info on it in neuro due to Tony P being a key player in this over the years. Personally, I wish they'd step back from the advocacy piece on societal issues and redouble guild specific issues, especially in the cluster**** we currently have politically.
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What did they actually do though? Codes changed, things got worse. Did they make it better or just shepherd us to worse times?
 
Pragma said:
What did they actually do though? Codes changed, things got worse. Did they make it better or just shepherd us to worse times?
Click to expand...

At least from my conversations, it was staving off far greater cuts. Unfortunately, with the CMS budget neutrality rules in place, it's something of a zero sum game in relation to seats at the CMS table, without any congressional intervention. And, unfortunately, psychologists pay a very small amount towards lobbying and advocacy, compared to other organizations.
 
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