APA PTSD Treatment Guidelines

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Exactly. An there is an oft-underappreciated heterogeneity among all cases which may come with a diagnostic label of PTSD. Consider simply the combinatorial possibilities of a polythetic disorder with 20 possible symptoms, at least 1 from Cluster B, 1 from Cluster C, 2 from Cluster D, and 2 from Cluster E (minimum). Someone published an article where they did the combinatory calculations and determined that there are something like 14,000+ different combinations of symptoms that could present as PTSD. And that's just symptom presentation of the PTSD. What about co-morbidity? What about primarily internalizing vs. externalizing psychopathology? What about the nature of and total number of index traumas (think single automobile crash vs. years of rape and physical abuse and torture). What about presence of suicidality/ self-harm behavior as a prioritized clinical target? Each case is the same in ways, yet different in others. Some of these distictly relevant clinical features (severe suicidality, substance abuse, personality pathology, lack of treatment engagement) get screened out in RCT's before patients even make it into the study, some don't). PTSD (even if accurately diagnosed, which, often it isn') is quite a heterogenous category. Of course, it doesn't mean that we can't come up with general rules for therapy (e.g., avoidance is bad, exposure generally works if applied with technical competence and safety behavior is dismantled and habituation occurs)--but this doesn't necessarily mean that we have it all figured out at the level of, 'presence of disorder X = need to plug patient into scripted (session-by-session) protocol Y to treat to remission in Z weeks [end of line].'
You wish it was 14,000. Galater-Levy & Bryant (2013) calculated 636,120.

If that number alone is not enough to stop and give question about the way in which PTSD is diagnosed, there is more than a small base of literature questioning the efficacy of criteria A at all. If you look at the LCA/LPA literature on PTSD it comes up with the same conclusion (e.g., "even when i include/exclude to get only a specific population, there is zero consistency and the disorder appears entirely heterogenious"). I'm not sure how complex PTSD needs a separate distinction for an already messy disorder we aren't any closer to fixing. Dear cart, get behind the horse.

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You wish it was 14,000. Galater-Levy & Bryant (2013) calculated 636,120.

If that number alone is not enough to stop and give question about the way in which PTSD is diagnosed, there is more than a small base of literature questioning the efficacy of criteria A at all. If you look at the LCA/LPA literature on PTSD it comes up with the same conclusion (e.g., "even when i include/exclude to get only a specific population, there is zero consistency and the disorder appears entirely heterogenious"). I'm not sure how complex PTSD needs a separate distinction for an already messy disorder we aren't any closer to fixing. Dear cart, get behind the horse.
Lol. Thanks...fallibility of memory and downward adjustment of figure to understate the case.
 
Same.

I have a “complex PTSD” + mTBI case coming up for assessment, so it’ll be interesting to see how they do. I also have a moderate TBI + (suspected) PTSD case coming up. I have a guess at what their cog and psych profiles will be...but i’ll let it play out and see what the data say.
Looking at a national sample of RF profiles for the VA, its interesting how moderate/severe TBI inpatient rehab units have lower rates of invalidity on the infrequent somatic over-reporting scale (by 10-20%) compared to PTSD clinics and all other BH clinics... One might be tempted to in infer something....
 
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I very much agree with this sentiment and empathize with your frustration. Short-term therapy is not going to be effective for everyone. IMO this is more of a misconstruing of the literature's support for short-term EBP's as justifying for administrators that every mental health disorder under the sun should be able to be treated and in remission with such constraints.

I think you're getting at the crux of the argument for wanting these to be "guidelines" and not absolutes....and not having insurance companies take these guidelines and run with it, limiting treatment to the standard # of sessions for CPT or PE, etc. We still need some flexibility to treat more complicated cases and take other factors into account (culture, etc.) in addition to being well-informed on the EBPs.
 
One way I have come to appreciate the distinction of Complex PTSD is as an added qualifier or "severe" marker in terms of the duration and intensity of the trauma. Sure, it might look very similar to BPD with PTSD, but why not have something diagnostic that is emphasizing the "complex" nature of the ongoing trauma rather that needs to be considered when selecting treatments and trying to help make sure that they aren't constantly dissociating or psychotic (MDD with psychotic features has a high comorbidity with C-PTSD according to some of these studies).

Admittedly, in my experience the C-PTSD distinction is not something I'm ever really documenting but rather using as a way conceptualizing for myself and guiding treatment. However, if it was in the DSM, I'd probably use it as a way indicating increased severity of PTSD in the same way the DSM5 encourages the use of spectrum consideration with other diagnoses.

I think that this makes a lot of sense intuitively, but the research doesn't show any predictable or reliable difference in severity of symptoms across trauma subtypes or between differential cases.

Clinically, I use the term "complex trauma" to describe trauma history and not symptoms.

I think you're getting at the crux of the argument for wanting these to be "guidelines" and not absolutes....and not having insurance companies take these guidelines and run with it, limiting treatment to the standard # of sessions for CPT or PE, etc. We still need some flexibility to treat more complicated cases and take other factors into account (culture, etc.) in addition to being well-informed on the EBPs.

I support the guidelines but would be very opposed to limiting sessions, given that one clinic I was in found the necessary average number of sessions (even for an EBP protocol) was 16-20. I mean, I've had PE go past 20 sessions and even now the new CPT protocol can go up to 24 sessions.
 
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I'd also enthusiastically recommend David Tolin's new book on 'Doing CBT'
Doing CBT: A Comprehensive Guide to Working with Behaviors, Thoughts, and Emotions

Dr. Tolin does a fantastic job teaching the foundational philosophy of science precepts underlying a science-based approach to clinical assessment, case formulation, and intervention. He understands that science is not a compendium of 'answers' (especially in our field), but rather a particular approach to utilizing hypothesis formation, testing, and revision processes to continually revise our models of the world (in this case, particular clients and the troubles they face in living). Fallibility, doubt, and skepticism (especially toward one's own particular model of the world or how things are supposed to work) are the hallmarks of science.
I use that one at the moment. Its the best I could find at the moment. I like it but don't love it. Next year I'll use the Process book and see if its better/worse.
 
To continue the side tracking on this thread, our diagnoses are absolutely not based on validity. My question is whether having a diagnosis of complex PTSD provide anything useful for helping patients rather than helping individuals trying to create new treatments and training organizations?
 
To continue the side tracking on this thread, our diagnoses are absolutely not based on validity. My question is whether having a diagnosis of complex PTSD provide anything useful for helping patients rather than helping individuals trying to create new treatments and training organizations?

Exactly, this is what I've been asking. Seems like it's just a way for some folks to shoehorn in some snake oil treatments.
 
To continue the side tracking on this thread, our diagnoses are absolutely not based on validity. My question is whether having a diagnosis of complex PTSD provide anything useful for helping patients rather than helping individuals trying to create new treatments and training organizations?
I'm still looking for those patients with simple PTSD. 😉 I do have concerns about guidelines becoming rules or limits, but inventing newer, less valid constructs does not help. It actually sort of proves the point for why the guidelines might be necessary.
 
I'm still looking for those patients with simple PTSD. 😉 I do have concerns about guidelines becoming rules or limits, but inventing newer, less valid constructs does not help. It actually sort of proves the point for why the guidelines might be necessary.

I don't get the whole "guidelines" are bad hysteria. It'd be like people advocating taking down the Cochrane databases. "How dare you require that we show our treatments actually have a clinical effect to be included as a recommendation. It's so facist!" You want to be included in the guidelines? Do some proof of concept work. You want to advocate that insurance companies broaden their treatment timelines, do what everyone else does and lobby.
 
I don't get the whole "guidelines" are bad hysteria. It'd be like people advocating taking down the Cochrane databases. "How dare you require that we show our treatments actually have a clinical effect to be included as a recommendation. It's so facist!" You want to be included in the guidelines? Do some proof of concept work. You want to advocate that insurance companies broaden their treatment timelines, do what everyone else does and lobby.
I think there are a lot of anti-science folks that are against the guidelines. However, there are a lot of academic folks that are also against the guidelines for legitimate reasons particularly because the guidelines are prescriptive rather than a research synthesis.

Me, I am tired of people that need help being sold common factors, placebo, and psycho/neuro-babble as opposed to effective treatment options.
 
I think there are a lot of anti-science folks that are against the guidelines. However, there are a lot of academic folks that are also against the guidelines for legitimate reasons particularly because the guidelines are prescriptive rather than a research synthesis.

Me, I am tired of people that need help being sold common factors, placebo, and psycho/neuro-babble as opposed to effective treatment options.

I read it more as that there is a body of clinical evidence supporting certain treatments. Lot's of treatments start out as theoretical with scant evidence, and then build up their evidence base. If you look at the ISTSS guidelines over the years, you'll see the evolution. They make it sound like the guidelines will be set in stone for the next 50 years with no revisions possible as we do more clinical research.
 
I don't get the whole "guidelines" are bad hysteria. It'd be like people advocating taking down the Cochrane databases. "How dare you require that we show our treatments actually have a clinical effect to be included as a recommendation. It's so facist!" You want to be included in the guidelines? Do some proof of concept work. You want to advocate that insurance companies broaden their treatment timelines, do what everyone else does and lobby.
This is a bit of a straw man tactic. Exaggerating the argument to make it easier to attack. I only get paid for delivering treatment. Not for advocating or researching. Does this mean I shouldn’t raise potential concerns? We just got new session limits from medicaid for 12 sessions a year for adults and 10 for kids. You bet that we are lobbying against this and I have personally communicated with local state legislator who I know directly. It is hard though when there is always this issue being raised of the “long term waste of time therapy” to justify limits and regulations that may not be well thought out or designed. Hopefully this will all be moot (at least for my wealthy patients) in another month if I can successfully negotiate a new position in a private pay treatment facility.
 
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This is a bit of a straw man tactic. Exaggerating the argument to make it easier to attack. I only get paid for delivering treatment. Not for advocating or researching. Does this mean I shouldn’t raise potential concerns? We just got new session limits from medicaid for 12 sessions a year for adults and 10 for kids. You bet that we are lobbying against this and I have personally communicated with local state legislator who I know directly. It is hard though when there is always this issue being raised of the “long term waste of time therapy” to justify limits and regulations that may not be well thought out or designed. Hopefully this will all be moot (at least for my wealthy patients) in another month if I can successfully negotiate a new position in a private pay treatment facility.

Not really a straw man at all. We need a guideline saying that therapies X, Y, Z and whatever have been shown to be efficacious. Without that, it's a cluster**** where crystal healing and reiki would be getting reimbursed. What is the problem with this? As far as I know, the guidelines do not say "only 8 sessions are necessary." Insurance is going to do what insurance is going to do, it's our duty to advocate for things that actually work, that we have proven work in certain clinical populations.
 
Not really a straw man at all. We need a guideline saying that therapies X, Y, Z and whatever have been shown to be efficacious. Without that, it's a cluster**** where crystal healing and reiki would be getting reimbursed. What is the problem with this? As far as I know, the guidelines do not say "only 8 sessions are necessary." Insurance is going to do what insurance is going to do, it's our duty to advocate for things that actually work, that we have proven work in certain clinical populations.
The exaggeration is when those who raise concerns about potential negatives of implementing guidelines are accused of hysterically saying there should be no guidelines. The example about limits was used because many would argue, myself included, that there should be limits, but how that is being implemented in our state is the problem. I have had a couple of patients who already stopped coming because they don't want to use up their appointments and would rather wait for a crisis. I wonder if the limits will really save money when these types of patients end up in the ED?
 
The exaggeration is when those who raise concerns about potential negatives of implementing guidelines are accused of hysterically saying there should be no guidelines. The example about limits was used because many would argue, myself included, that there should be limits, but how that is being implemented in our state is the problem. I have had a couple of patients who already stopped coming because they don't want to use up their appointments and would rather wait for a crisis. I wonder if the limits will really save money when these types of patients end up in the ED?

But, they are actually arguing for no guidelines. They want the restriction of evidence based removed, or watered down to the point of meaninglessness. For all intents and purposes, they are saying there should be no guidelines. The time limits is a slightly overlapping, but separate issue. We all probably agree that there should be a middle ground, many people need more than 8-12 sessions, and unending psychoanalysis that goes on for years is a huge waste of money that insurance rightly should not pay for. But, that is outside the scope of the guidelines proposed.
 
But, they are actually arguing for no guidelines. They want the restriction of evidence based removed, or watered down to the point of meaninglessness. For all intents and purposes, they are saying there should be no guidelines. The time limits is a slightly overlapping, but separate issue. We all probably agree that there should be a middle ground, many people need more than 8-12 sessions, and unending psychoanalysis that goes on for years is a huge waste of money that insurance rightly should not pay for. But, that is outside the scope of the guidelines proposed.
Arguments like this do tend to increase the extremes. Several social psych principles speak to that dynamic. The middle ground does tend to be the more reasonable place although trying to live there can feel like you are being attacked from all sides. 🙂
 
Arguments like this do tend to increase the extremes. Several social psych principles speak to that dynamic. The middle ground does tend to be the more reasonable place although trying to live there can feel like you are being attacked from all sides. 🙂

I don't really see this as a middle ground argument. The guidelines are set up saying that there are certain criteria that indicate that a treatment has been shown to be efficacious for certain patient populations. If treatments meet those criteria, they are included in the guidelines. The anti-guidelines appear to want to remove the bar completely. Saying that there is a middle ground for clinical evidence and efficacy is a false equivalency in this instance, really.
 
you mean like when people report 'marginal significance'? 😡🙄

🙂 I have a quant friend who hates the whole "trending towards significance" thing. He maintains that if you do that, you also have to say that close values the other way are trending towards non-significance.
 
🙂 I have a quant friend who hates the whole "trending towards significance" thing. He maintains that if you do that, you also have to say that close values the other way are trending towards non-significance.
I like that. I think I'll question a student about why they don't say that the next time I see marginal junk in a dissertation defense.
 
This is a bit of a straw man tactic. Exaggerating the argument to make it easier to attack. I only get paid for delivering treatment. Not for advocating or researching. Does this mean I shouldn’t raise potential concerns? We just got new session limits from medicaid for 12 sessions a year for adults and 10 for kids. You bet that we are lobbying against this and I have personally communicated with local state legislator who I know directly. It is hard though when there is always this issue being raised of the “long term waste of time therapy” to justify limits and regulations that may not be well thought out or designed. Hopefully this will all be moot (at least for my wealthy patients) in another month if I can successfully negotiate a new position in a private pay treatment facility.

One of the biggest issues is that we have sophisticated clinicians (and workgroups) like David Barlow or Edna Foa developing/testing protocols in a scientifically-informed and sophisticated manner (on the front end) while, meantime, on the back end (at the point of implementation or service-delivery), we have 'Sally Joe Social Worker' Mental Health Quality Improvement Champion [sigh] and her buddy 'Jimbo PR wannabe MBA Administrator' types treating these 'guidelines' like they're some sort of holy scripture and providing 'oversight' of the implementation of the protocols by experienced, licensed, doctoral-level providers with the clear goal of eradicating any and all individual clinician judgment from the enterprise of professional psychotherapy.
 
One of the biggest issues is that we have sophisticated clinicians (and workgroups) like David Barlow or Edna Foa developing/testing protocols in a scientifically-informed and sophisticated manner (on the front end) while, meantime, on the back end (at the point of implementation or service-delivery), we have 'Sally Joe Social Worker' Mental Health Quality Improvement Champion [sigh] and her buddy 'Jimbo PR wannabe MBA Administrator' types treating these 'guidelines' like they're some sort of holy scripture and providing 'oversight' of the implementation of the protocols by experienced, licensed, doctoral-level providers with the clear goal of eradicating any and all individual clinician judgment from the enterprise of professional psychotherapy.
Can I do a thousand likes for this? 😎
 
One of the biggest issues is that we have sophisticated clinicians (and workgroups) like David Barlow or Edna Foa developing/testing protocols in a scientifically-informed and sophisticated manner (on the front end) while, meantime, on the back end (at the point of implementation or service-delivery), we have 'Sally Joe Social Worker' Mental Health Quality Improvement Champion [sigh] and her buddy 'Jimbo PR wannabe MBA Administrator' types treating these 'guidelines' like they're some sort of holy scripture and providing 'oversight' of the implementation of the protocols by experienced, licensed, doctoral-level providers with the clear goal of eradicating any and all individual clinician judgment from the enterprise of professional psychotherapy.
I'm just quoting this so it's in the thread twice.

So much this. So, freaking, much, this.
 
One of the biggest issues is that we have sophisticated clinicians (and workgroups) like David Barlow or Edna Foa developing/testing protocols in a scientifically-informed and sophisticated manner (on the front end) while, meantime, on the back end (at the point of implementation or service-delivery), we have 'Sally Joe Social Worker' Mental Health Quality Improvement Champion [sigh] and her buddy 'Jimbo PR wannabe MBA Administrator' types treating these 'guidelines' like they're some sort of holy scripture and providing 'oversight' of the implementation of the protocols by experienced, licensed, doctoral-level providers with the clear goal of eradicating any and all individual clinician judgment from the enterprise of professional psychotherapy.

I agree, but that's not a problem with the guidelines, it's a problem with the healthcare system and how it implements things. If we go down that road, we could similarly condemn almost any RCT that is being conducted as "unfair and detrimental."
 
I agree, but that's not a problem with the guidelines, it's a problem with the healthcare system and how it implements things. If we go down that road, we could similarly condemn almost any RCT that is being conducted as "unfair and detrimental."

"I'm just quoting this so it's in the thread twice.

So much this. So, freaking, much, this."
 
One of the biggest issues is that we have sophisticated clinicians (and workgroups) like David Barlow or Edna Foa developing/testing protocols in a scientifically-informed and sophisticated manner (on the front end) while, meantime, on the back end (at the point of implementation or service-delivery), we have 'Sally Joe Social Worker' Mental Health Quality Improvement Champion [sigh] and her buddy 'Jimbo PR wannabe MBA Administrator' types treating these 'guidelines' like they're some sort of holy scripture and providing 'oversight' of the implementation of the protocols by experienced, licensed, doctoral-level providers with the clear goal of eradicating any and all individual clinician judgment from the enterprise of professional psychotherapy.

You lost me at your institution specific examples of the back end. That is entirely based on a given facility. And no, all individual clinician judgement is not "eradicated" when an evidence based psychotherapy is implemented. Just because there is a manual or protocol does not mean you have no decision making ability within the treatment.
 
You lost me at your institution specific examples of the back end. That is entirely based on a given facility. And no, all individual clinician judgement is not "eradicated" when an evidence based psychotherapy is implemented. Just because there is a manual or protocol does not mean you have no decision making ability within the treatment.
I have yet to see a facility or government agency that didn’t try to eradicate clinical judgement. Fan of Meehl was referring to the admin types and bean counters causing this and how they misinterpret the manual or guidelines. Maybe you’ve never worked for any of these soul-crushing organizations. 😱
 
I'm just quoting this so it's in the thread twice.

So much this. So, freaking, much, this.
And you and I both know that 'Sally Joe' ain't got a caseload (and has never had one) and ole Jimbo is just waiting out his time-in-grade so he can get that automatic promotion
You lost me at your institution specific examples of the back end. That is entirely based on a given facility. And no, all individual clinician judgement is not "eradicated" when an evidence based psychotherapy is implemented. Just because there is a manual or protocol does not mean you have no decision making ability within the treatment.

True. All individual clinician judgment is not eradicated when an evidence-based psychotherapy is implemented. It's an absurd claim, and I wouldn't make that specific claim. I was pointing out the apparent aim / trajectory over time that seems to be playing out in the field (which I think, thankfully, is beginning to be reversed by the coming de-emphasis on specific scripted protocols (per se) matched with specific diagnoses/syndromes...I think it's long overdue). The behavior and aims of the institutional functionaries (who sit at the top of the local bureaucratic dominance hierarchy) is clearly separable from the behavior of the individual clinician within the bounds of a chosen EBP protocol as it's being implemented. I still have freedom to apply 'flexibility within fidelity' in my application of the protocol...for now. The degree to which the individual practitioner should have 'freedom' (and who he should beg for the privilege of the latitude) in the implementation of evidence-based principles of behavior change to apply a course of psychotherapy to an individual patient is certainly debatable, and is currently being hotly debated within the field. Interesting times ahead.
 
I have yet to see a facility or government agency that didn’t try to eradicate clinical judgement. Fan of Meehl was referring to the admin types and bean counters causing this and how they misinterpret the manual or guidelines. Maybe you’ve never worked for any of these soul-crushing organizations. 😱

Pretty much this. I'm afraid I was venting a bit too much.
 
Sometimes I just listen empathically to patients and they improve.
Sometimes I work on the sequelae of the trauma more so than trying to eliminate symptoms of PTSD.
Sometimes the patient doesn’t want to do exposure therapy.
Sometimes the patient doesn’t come back because they didn’t want to do exposure therapy.
Sometimes I take six months to get a patient to trust me enough to open up and begin working on their residual trauma symptoms.
Sometimes I work with patients who have had a course of structured PTSD treatment and they still want a lot of help. Sometimes I help the patient regulate their emotions through affective attunement and my own affective modulation. Sometimes I just wing it because I don’t know what I should do.
Sometimes a trauma patient loses 100 pounds just because they enjoy talking to me about mine and their cats and tv shows (true story).
Sometimes I am firmly rooted in science and understand what is going on in the room from a psychological, neurobiological, environmental, and developmental perspective and sometimes I feel that love and caring and the unexplained are really the more important factors.
I always resent someone from outside the room telling me and my patient what we should be doing.

Just some late night musings.
 
Sometimes I just listen empathically to patients and they improve.
Sometimes I work on the sequelae of the trauma more so than trying to eliminate symptoms of PTSD.
Sometimes the patient doesn’t want to do exposure therapy.
Sometimes the patient doesn’t come back because they didn’t want to do exposure therapy.
Sometimes I take six months to get a patient to trust me enough to open up and begin working on their residual trauma symptoms.
Sometimes I work with patients who have had a course of structured PTSD treatment and they still want a lot of help. Sometimes I help the patient regulate their emotions through affective attunement and my own affective modulation. Sometimes I just wing it because I don’t know what I should do.
Sometimes a trauma patient loses 100 pounds just because they enjoy talking to me about mine and their cats and tv shows (true story).
Sometimes I am firmly rooted in science and understand what is going on in the room from a psychological, neurobiological, environmental, and developmental perspective and sometimes I feel that love and caring and the unexplained are really the more important factors.
I always resent someone from outside the room telling me and my patient what we should be doing.

Just some late night musings.

It seems to me that there is a broad continuum of structure that can be infused into the psychotherapy process, ranging all the way from the deplorable, (a) tell me all about how bad your week went so I can co-sign your bull**** and keep you sick and not lift a finger as a therapist in the process to (b) a session-by-session structured, time-limited protocol. There's a LOT of territory in-between (a) and (b), I would contend. What I have found practical is to adopt an approach of offering and implementing the highest level of therapeutic structure that my patient will tolerate (at that phase of therapy) in a way to maximize their engagement and likelihood of successful recovery. Some can be plugged straight into a protocol and do just fine. But, for many, recovery is a developmental process and the push to implement too much structure too early or when they are not at all receptive to it just creates points of conflict in therapy. Now, some points of conflict in therapy are therapeutic and that's just fine. But points of conflict in therapy that are driven by bureaucratic mandates (at the system level) are just plain stupid and counterproductive.

And I can definitely identify with resentment of someone outside the room telling me and my patient what we should be doing--especially if they have little/no clinical training, expertise, licensure, or knowledge base either about the enterprise of evidence-based clinical practice in general or any of the literature pertaining to the particular presenting issues of my clients. I am ALL FOR 'quality improvement' in psychotherapy practice, I just disagree strongly with the modal approach to 'quality improvement' as instantiated within most applied mental health treatment settings (outside of such rarefied environments as academic medical centers or post-docs or the like). I have argued strongly that we need systems of actual clinical supervision/oversight including strong systems of professional peer support/supervision and feedback for quality improvement purposes. But what I overwhelmingly see right now is a dearth of support and encouragement of sophisticated mental health clinicians trying to 'duke it out' with some very difficult presenting pathologies on the front lines of service delivery and an ever-encroaching process of authoritarian finger-wagging and contempt for anyone trying to earnestly grapple with the complexity of applying clinical science with severely disturbed populations. There's just an arrogance, disconnection from reality, and naivete that you have to see to believe, including the increasingly zealous push to 'eliminate suicide' ('zero-suicide' initiatives) from the human condition.
 
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There's just an arrogance, disconnection from reality, and naivete that you have to see to believe, including the increasingly zealous push to 'eliminate suicide' ('zero-suicide' initiatives) from the human condition.

Oh, God, don't get me started on stuff like that. The irony is that the way that we try to reduce suicide within healthcare systems is actually reinforcing for suicidal behavior. I think that's one reason I've seen full model DBT struggle so much within the VA.
 
Oh, God, don't get me started on stuff like that. The irony is that the way that we try to reduce suicide within healthcare systems is actually reinforcing for suicidal behavior. I think that's one reason I've seen full model DBT struggle so much within the VA.

Oh, I think there's a much more parsimonious reason driving why we don't see the gains we'd expect from DBT within that system.
 
Oh, I think there's a much more parsimonious reason driving why we don't see the gains we'd expect from DBT within that system.
Yup....

And I think you could make this statement much more accurate and generalizable by removing reference to why we don't see gains across a single treatment modality.
 
Oh, I think there's a much more parsimonious reason driving why we don't see the gains we'd expect from DBT within that system.

I said one reason. 😉 But I meant more why there seems to be such a struggle implementing DBT within the VA system. Treatment gains is one thing, but another is actually keeping a program viable and sustainable. I've seen so many DBT programs close at VAs throughout my short career.
 
I said one reason. 😉 But I meant more why there seems to be such a struggle implementing DBT within the VA system. Treatment gains is one thing, but another is actually keeping a program viable and sustainable. I've seen so many DBT programs close at VAs throughout my short career.

At least in the VAs I was at, it was more of a problem finding someone to actually do the DBT. There was high turnover and high burnout. I imagine it's hard to be a provider doing DBT with a population that intentionally refuses to get better.
 
At least in the VAs I was at, it was more of a problem finding someone to actually do the DBT. There was high turnover and high burnout. I imagine it's hard to be a provider doing DBT with a population that intentionally refuses to get better.

And, like I said, the system itself forces providers to reinforce suicidal and therapy-interfering behaviors in a treatment that relies on modifying behavioral contingencies to reduce these things. That has to increase burnout.
 
on behalf of Div. 12 via Michael W. Otto, Eugenia Gorlin, and Hayley E. Fitzgerald:
Dear Colleagues:

We are writing to you today to address some issues relevant to the American Psychological Association’s PTSD Guidelines. As you are probably aware, there has been a backlash in response to these guidelines, including the circulation of an online petition (https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/480/492/776/?cid=headerClick) asserting that the guidelines “did not take into account the evidence for intensive ‘talk therapy’ and for other treatments that have helped countless thousands of traumatized people get back on their feet and change their lives.” In this brief communication, we would like to give some perspective on this issue. Bear with us for a few paragraphs while we set the stage for some interesting evidence for supportive/psychoeducational treatment effects in PTSD.



As you may know, the guidelines were based on evidence from randomized clinical trials (RCT’s). RCT’s give an estimate of the strength of treatment effects when they are compared to either no treatment (e.g., a waitlist condition) or to some sort of “psychological placebo” condition. These “placebo” interventions are, in general, designed to control for the non-specific but nonetheless valuable common elements of treatment: things like establishing a supportive relationship with a caring clinician and receiving information about the disorder to normalize symptoms and to spur problem-solving efforts. Sometimes more complex treatments are also included as “placebo” conditions. This is the case with some PTSD treatment trials; for example, Present-Centered Therapy (PCT) has been used as a comparison condition to trauma-focused cognitive-behavior therapy. PCT is an interesting comparison condition because it is not a trauma-focused therapy and instead emphasizes active problem-solving training to minimize the effects of trauma and trauma-related responses on patients’ lives.

A strength of RCTs, then, is that a treatment undergoing evaluation must offer an outcome that is significantly stronger than the waitlist and/or active comparison conditions. Moreover, when it comes to summaries of studies as used in meta-analyses and the APA Guidelines process, a treatment must beat these comparison conditions repeatedly, so that we know that the overall outcomes averaged across trials represent more than just a lucky finding. Reliability of findings matters, because it means that benefit was observed across studies, across research settings, and, in the case of PTSD, across many different patients with many different traumas.

In the petition, there is a complaint that the guidelines were reliant on this sort of averaging process from well-controlled trials. Specifically, the petition asserts that, “Due to the exclusive reliance on RCT outcomes in formulating the guideline, other legitimate research findings crucially and commonly supporting additional forms of PTSD treatment were not considered in the assignment of ‘strong’ recommendations.” Ironically, however, the information provided by RCTs can give us some additional insight into some of the alternative forms of treatment, insofar as they were included as control or comparison interventions in addition to the targeted treatment. As such, let’s turn our attention to the research evidence for the strength of these comparison interventions.

This process is aided by the very recent publication of a meta-analysis by Carpenter and associates (2018) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29451967) examining the efficacy of CBT relative to “psychological placebo” conditions rather than to waitlist control conditions. Accordingly, this is a meta-analysis of the ability of targeted treatments to beat a higher standard – namely to outperform clinical interventions emphasizing common elements like clinician support and psychoeducation. In general, the answer from this meta-analysis for anxiety disorders is that CBT offers efficacy over and above these alternative approaches. More importantly for the topic at hand, the Carpenter et al. (2018) meta-analysis can also be used to provide an index of the strength of these comparison treatments for PTSD. We recently asked the first author to break out this statistic from the overall results, and here is the result:

For all of the psychological treatment control conditions (e.g., supportive treatments and PCT) included in the Carpenter (2018) meta-analysis, the within-group Hedges’ g is 0.54 (95% CI = 0.41-0.67). This includes 13 studies total.

This means that there is reliable evidence of improvement from pre-treatment to post-treatment in these comparison conditions. This effect is certainly part of what is observed in clinical practice, and is consistent with the claim in the petition of evidence “for other treatments that have helped countless thousands of traumatized people get back on their feet and change their lives.” But how strong are these treatment effects? After all, the within-group pre-treatment to post-treatment effect size does not control for non-treatment-related recovery effects, making it difficult to get an estimate of how well a comparison treatment works relative to no treatment. To estimate this effect we would need to include a waitlist condition in addition to the common elements comparison condition, which is rare to find in an RCT. Fortunately, we were able to identify four stalwart PTSD research teams that have done exactly this. Based only on these four studies, it turns out that “psychological placebo” treatments used in RCT’s have an advantage over no treatment (waitlist control) on the order of a moderate effect size: d = 0.57 (between-groups Cohen’s d effect size at post-treatment).

We have to admit some surprise at the strength of this effect for supportive and PCT interventions for PTSD. We tend to think of PTSD as difficult to treat, perhaps because it is often emotionally painful for clinician and patient alike. In this context, we are surprised at how well supportive, psychoeducational, and problem-solving treatments did. As such, we agree fully with one specific assertion from the authors of the petition – a range of treatments can offer benefit to PTSD patients!

But of course, the purpose of the Guidelines was not to show that patients can get some benefit from any treatment. The purpose, as we understand it, was to identify the treatments that have reliable evidence for strong benefits. Based on our review of the APA PTSD Guideline effect sizes, treatments emphasizing prolonged exposure (d = 1.27) and treatments emphasizing other cognitive-behavioral and cognitive interventions (d = ~1.0) have effects that are roughly double that of the comparison treatment estimate noted above (d = .57). That is, to our eyes, the guidelines correctly direct attention to the treatments that seem to be offering the very best outcome to patients as evaluated by repeated controlled trials. Other treatments provide benefit, but the most reliable evidence for the strongest benefits is for trauma-focused treatments emphasizing prolonged exposure, cognitive behavioral therapy, cognitive processing therapy, or cognitive therapy. It is for these reasons and others that clinical researchers are now circulating a very different petition (https://www.thepetitionsite.com/780/537/970/support-the-apa-ptsd-treatment-guidelines/) to underscore their support for the PTSD Guidelines.

A core feature of the mission of Division 12 of APA is “to represent the field of Clinical Psychology through encouragement and support of the integration of clinical psychological science and practice in education, research, application, advocacy and public policy…” As clinical researchers and clinicians we think the guideline process is valuable for encouraging treatment approaches that have shown their mettle under the bright lights of scrutiny that controlled trials offer. Given these successes, it seems only right that the APA guidelines encourage us to shine our own attention on these treatments when we consider what is right for our patients suffering from PTSD. This is what guidelines are supposed to do.

Sincerely,

Michael W. Otto, PhD
Eugenia Gorlin, PhD
Hayley E. Fitzgerald, BA
Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences, Boston University

tl;dr
Based on our review of the APA PTSD Guideline effect sizes, treatments emphasizing prolonged exposure (d = 1.27) and treatments emphasizing other cognitive-behavioral and cognitive interventions (d = ~1.0) have effects that are roughly double that of the comparison treatment estimate noted above (d = .57). That is, to our eyes, the guidelines correctly direct attention to the treatments that seem to be offering the very best outcome to patients as evaluated by repeated controlled trials. Other treatments provide benefit, but the most reliable evidence for the strongest benefits is for trauma-focused treatments emphasizing prolonged exposure, cognitive behavioral therapy, cognitive processing therapy, or cognitive therapy.
 
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