APMA Salary Survey

[sdupre_apma]

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@sdupre_apma

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If APMA wants something fun to look at - the people at this website claim they've used the mandated transparency contracting/payment rates to create data you can use to evaluate insurance contracts. This same data could theoretically be used to evaluate whether insurance companies discriminate against podiatrists.

Now this is interesting. Thanks! I'll dig in.

 

[Slewfoot]

I also filled it out. I can tell you that being a PP owner of 9 years now in my late 40's, having a 80K salary, no health or retirement benefits and still close to 200k in student loan debt is very real.

 

[Dermato Fight Club]

I also filled it out. I can tell you that being a PP owner of 9 years now in my late 40's, having a 80K salary, no health or retirement benefits and still close to 200k in student loan debt is very real.

80k salary? So you're collecting roughly 160k/year? At $150 per patient, you're seeing 4.5 patients a day 5 days a week 48 weeks a year.

 

[Slewfoot]

80k salary? So you're collecting roughly 160k/year? At $150 per patient, you're seeing 4.5 patients a day 5 days a week 48 weeks a year.

You're not far off. 3 docs in the practice collecting average about 16k month. My schedule is 3.5 clinic days per week, average 20 patients per day. Paying myself around 40% collections. Wish I could turn some of these nail visits into $150 per visit though.

 

[Homo sapien]

You're not far off. 3 docs in the practice collecting average about 16k month. My schedule is 3.5 clinic days per week, average 20 patients per day. Paying myself around 40% collections. Wish I could turn some of these nail visits into $150 per visit though.

So each doctor collects 16k? Or total 16k? Are you all seeing 2 pts a day or something? How? Are the payers in your area all medicaid

 

[Adam Smasher]

You're not far off. 3 docs in the practice collecting average about 16k month. My schedule is 3.5 clinic days per week, average 20 patients per day. Paying myself around 40% collections. Wish I could turn some of these nail visits into $150 per visit though.

Why so slow? Are you in a really saturated community?

 

[Slewfoot]

So each doctor collects 16k? Or total 16k? Are you all seeing 2 pts a day or something? How? Are the payers in your area all medicaid

16K for each doctor. You would think so, busy day still seems to be 20 pts for me, can't seem to get past 25 max. We do see our share of medicaid but now it sems like medicaid is paying higher than some of these PPO's.

 

[Slewfoot]

Why so slow? Are you in a really saturated community?

That could be part of it. Decent sized city with several podiatrists but at least our area of town seems less saturated. My partner and I hired an associate just 4 years into opening a practice, possibly premature? All three working the same office with 5 treatment rooms. So probably not enough of the pie to slice up? Only one day of the week with all three of us but the lobby will bottleneck on that day if the schedule fills up.

 

[Homo sapien]

That could be part of it. Decent sized city with several podiatrists but at least our area of town seems less saturated. My partner and I hired an associate just 4 years into opening a practice, possibly premature? All three working the same office with 5 treatment rooms. So probably not enough of the pie to slice up? Only one day of the week with all three of us but the lobby will bottleneck on that day if the schedule fills up.

This definitely sounds like you shouldn't have hired that poor associate. Or had a partner. Maybe you should have done solo. Thats next to no production at all.

I'm at a floundering-to-decent sort of place seeing on average 16 17 a day and my production is in the 30s monthly, not doing crazy skin grafts and potions and all this. What kind of patients are you seeing? Just nails only?

 

[Dermato Fight Club]

I’m really sorry to hear this. Why did you think it would be a good idea to hire an associate? Is your partner atleast close to retirement?

Time to start taking call/go visit some PCP offices etc.

 

[air bud]

This is surely a joke.

 

[Adam Smasher]

3.5 days x 20 pts/day x 4 weeks = 280

16k/280 = $57/pt.

Podiatry services are reimbursed badly, but not that badly.

Ever try using a 25 modifier? They're great. Toenail patients love to ask about incidental pigmentation changes/swelling/aches/toe contractures. I always answer their questions and--where appropriate--bill their insurance for those consultations.

 

[Slewfoot]

This definitely sounds like you shouldn't have hired that poor associate. Or had a partner. Maybe you should have done solo. Thats next to no production at all.

I'm at a floundering-to-decent sort of place seeing on average 16 17 a day and my production is in the 30s monthly, not doing crazy skin grafts and potions and all this. What kind of patients are you seeing? Just nails only?

My partner is also my spouse, married right after pod school, so that factors in. Our practice does very little surgery also, although my spouse and I are both ABFAS certified, just not enthused about as we used to be and doing a case or 2 here and there just didn’t seem as profitable for all that’s involved.
Also as it turns out, our associate has decided that aside from the cases associated with his wound clinic, he doesn’t want to do all the much elective cases.
The clinic patients are a decent mix though of MSK, warts, ingrown etc.

 

[Homo sapien]

Are half your insurances not paying

 

[Feli]

80k salary? So you're collecting roughly 160k/year? At $150 per patient, you're seeing 4.5 patients a day 5 days a week 48 weeks a year.

I pay roughly 80k/yr on my student loans.

This is surely a joke.

(one would hope... )

That could be part of it. Decent sized city with several podiatrists but at least our area of town seems less saturated. My partner and I hired an associate just 4 years into opening a practice, possibly premature? All three working the same office with 5 treatment rooms. So probably not enough of the pie to slice up? Only one day of the week with all three of us but the lobby will bottleneck on that day if the schedule fills up.

In all seriousness, if your figures are true, then cut your associate loose asap... doing both them and you a favor. @Dermato Fight Club hit it...

You screwed up hiring, but the assoicate should've plainly seen on visit that your office wasn't big or busy enough to hire. (super common theme in podiatry... he/she won't make that mistake again... give them a bit of severance pay if they were good and you'd feel better)
You simply don't have enough physical space, enough money, enough patients for them (barely enough for the two "partners").

Heck, I could run 4-5 rooms myself if I hired another MA and wanted to hustle more (I do not). Many DPMs do.
My first office had 6 exam rooms for the boss and I... we used all of them and still got behind due to lack of clean/open exam rooms occasionally.
Second job, we had 5-6 rooms at each office... 1-2 docs at each office, usually flowing well but occasionally no open rooms.
Three docs for 5 exam rooms? No way, barely enough for two docs. Tell the assoicate to to have their CV up to date. GL

 

[Slewfoot]

3.5 days x 20 pts/day x 4 weeks = 280

16k/280 = $57/pt.

Podiatry services are reimbursed badly, but not that badly.

Ever try using a 25 modifier? They're great. Toenail patients love to ask about incidental pigmentation changes/swelling/aches/toe contractures. I always answer their questions and--where appropriate--bill their insurance for those consultations.

Absolutely agree.
I've really been trying to limit and do less of the 11721 code. I'll typically try to find something to justify the 99213, especially for semi annual "updated diabetic foot exams" and document accordingly. I will sometimes 25 modify with both codes, but am finding out often times they will deny one or the other and pay for only one, usually the lesser of the two. The 11721's combined with 11055's or 6's certainly do better when they have "PAD".
I'm planning on starting to double book these nail patient's with other appointments as I can't have these taking up a whole 15 min slot and hopefully that will help too.
I've always considered myself an ethical biller but I'm realizing I'm just going to have to push more. I also do a decent amount of DME, ankle braces when appropriate, mostly L1906 and occasional L1971. Almost every new patient with heel pain gets a night splint first visit.
I also need to dust off the ultrasound machine with more of my PF injections.

 

[sdupre_apma]

I also filled it out. I can tell you that being a PP owner of 9 years now in my late 40's, having a 80K salary, no health or retirement benefits and still close to 200k in student loan debt is very real.

Thanks for bringing this up directly and for filling out the survey. This conversation has been good to follow, lots to unpack in the conversation. I hope that people keep bringing up these sorts of situations and that individuals in these circumstances exist. Nothing but good can come of frankly discussing the circumstances that lead to this sort of business situation.

 

[Sendin_Toes_2market]

Absolutely agree.
I've really been trying to limit and do less of the 11721 code. I'll typically try to find something to justify the 99213, especially for semi annual "updated diabetic foot exams" and document accordingly. I will sometimes 25 modify with both codes, but am finding out often times they will deny one or the other and pay for only one, usually the lesser of the two. The 11721's combined with 11055's or 6's certainly do better when they have "PAD".
I'm planning on starting to double book these nail patient's with other appointments as I can't have these taking up a whole 15 min slot and hopefully that will help too.
I've always considered myself an ethical biller but I'm realizing I'm just going to have to push more. I also do a decent amount of DME, ankle braces when appropriate, mostly L1906 and occasional L1971. Almost every new patient with heel pain gets a night splint first visit.
I also need to dust off the ultrasound machine with more of my PF injections.

if you are having nails and calluses take 15+ minutes you need to re evaluate your office and work flow. Anything over 5 minute for a routine patient is inefficient.

This seems like a fake post. Someone 9 years out wouldn’t have these issues billing.

 

[SoleSucking]

if you are having nails and calluses take 15+ minutes you need to re evaluate your office and work flow. Anything over 5 minute for a routine patient is inefficient.

This seems like a fake post. Someone 9 years out wouldn’t have these issues billing.

Wyckoff graduates have to go somewhere bro

 

[Homo sapien]

Wyckoff graduates have to go somewhere bro

Wyckoff, new york community, and these nail clinic VA programs

 

[Slewfoot]

I pay roughly 80k/yr on my student loans.

(one would hope... )


In all seriousness, if your figures are true, then cut your associate loose asap... doing both them and you a favor. @Dermato Fight Club hit it...

You screwed up hiring, but the assoicate should've plainly seen on visit that your office wasn't big or busy enough to hire. (super common theme in podiatry... he/she won't make that mistake again... give them a bit of severance pay if they were good and you'd feel better)
You simply don't have enough physical space, enough money, enough patients for them (barely enough for the two "partners").

Heck, I could run 4-5 rooms myself if I hired another MA and wanted to hustle more (I do not). Many DPMs do.
My first office had 6 exam rooms for the boss and I... we used all of them and still got behind due to lack of clean/open exam rooms occasionally.
Second job, we had 5-6 rooms at each office... 1-2 docs at each office, usually flowing well but occasionally no open rooms.
Three docs for 5 exam rooms? No way, barely enough for two docs. Tell the assoicate to to have their CV up to date. GL

Thank you Feli, I really do appreciate your input and advice. I've been enjoying reading your posts on here for some time and also your perspective and insights on the profession in general these days.

Yeah with the student loans I was doing a decent job keeping up with the payments during my job as an associate for a few years after residency. Then when opening up your own practice, starting over and paying yourself less, we were able to kick the can so to speak for a few years with economic hardship deferments and very low payments. Now it's time to pay the piper and eventual forgiveness isn't looking good these days.

With the associate, I admit we were naive at the time we hired with the mindset of work smarter not harder and we'd be able to pay ourselves a % bonus of what they brought in once they got going. The associate was also very fortunate to get hired just before the pandemic shutdown and found a safe harbor at a time when soon after, no one would be hiring. Associate does good work, likeable, good with patient's and skills, they are definitely paying for themself but yes, I've also been told we were too nice and premature with taking this on. Putting patients on their schedule is certainly taking from mine.

Yes I definitely was used to seeing 30-40 max per day when I was an associate at my prior job. It's doable with 2 MA's.
There's also the challenge of finding and keeping good MA's these days. We currently have one strong MA who's been with us 2 years but found out this week they'll be leaving soon so now we have one part time MA and are back to hiring again.
Also good luck getting someone GXMO certified.

 

[Slewfoot]

if you are having nails and calluses take 15+ minutes you need to re evaluate your office and work flow. Anything over 5 minute for a routine patient is inefficient.

This seems like a fake post. Someone 9 years out wouldn’t have these issues billing.

Sadly I wish it were a fake post. Took a little courage on my part to admit and post regarding the APMA salary survey knowing I would get some heat on here. I also know many of the mistakes are on me and a lot of things can be tweaked and corrected to right the ship. Much can be attributed to the mistake of trading money for time and my partner and I working like we were semi-retired instead of grinding it out earlier on.
Should make for some quality new memes on here though so I'm happy to contribute in some way 🙂

 

[Slewfoot]

Wyckoff graduates have to go somewhere bro

Well, Wyck me off. I had to look up that residency. 😆

 

[Dermato Fight Club]

I mean you hired an associate, reducing your collections by 33%, for what?

To potentially make 5% of the associate’s collections?

So you traded potentially 96k/year (50% of 192) for like 10k?

And what is your associate making if they are collecting 192k? I assume they’re making less than you at 80k? So like 70k? Are they happy with this setup?

This sounds like a total disaster. Thank you for sharing. I hope you get this worked out but I guess this is just very illustrative of what types of jobs are out there.

Were you open geographically when you decided to set up a practice somewhere or did you go back to your hometown etc.?

Like @Feli said, lose the associate ASAP. I’d try doing anything to drum up business (visiting PCP offices/taking call/wound care center/nursing homes).

If you’re set on keeping the associate, then maybe consider opening a satellite office. This one office does not look like it is capable of producing enough for three doctors.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Maybe it's time to take the meme thread seriously and take the sign on bonus for ICE

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Maybe it's time to take the meme thread seriously and take the sign on bonus for ICE

Gotta go reference the Buccees sign again. I feel like half the list did better than 80k.

 

[air bud]

Gotta go reference the Buccees sign again. I feel like half the list did better than 80k.

Yeah the assistant to the car wash a manger did

 

[Slewfoot]

I mean you hired an associate, reducing your collections by 33%, for what?

To potentially make 5% of the associate’s collections?

So you traded potentially 96k/year (50% of 192) for like 10k?

And what is your associate making if they are collecting 192k? I assume they’re making less than you at 80k? So like 70k? Are they happy with this setup?

This sounds like a total disaster. Thank you for sharing. I hope you get this worked out but I guess this is just very illustrative of what types of jobs are out there.

Were you open geographically when you decided to set up a practice somewhere or did you go back to your hometown etc.?

Like @Feli said, lose the associate ASAP. I’d try doing anything to drum up business (visiting PCP offices/taking call/wound care center/nursing homes).

If you’re set on keeping the associate, then maybe consider opening a satellite office. This one office does not look like it is capable of producing enough for three doctors.

I think you really hit the nail on the head when you break it down like that, essentially trading a larger % for a smaller %.
I believe there was some magical/wishful thinking involved back then combined with lack of experience owning a private practice.
The associate collects close to and earns close to about the same as I do. We were also too generous when we hired, giving a higher % than what is the standard going rate for associates in our area. The associate also does some supplemental podiatry work on the side, so no complaints from them so far.

When we opened however we were very fortunate to find a good location in our area that wasn't saturated and 2 other TFP's, a few miles away, were retiring. We have a strong referral base with several PCP's and primary care offices in our area, always seems to be new patients, the parking lot is full and the phone always ringing. We're not bad looking, our patient's love us and we get great google reviews.
I know 20 pts a day isn't too bad and kept thinking of ways to earn more with production or adding more clinic hours for myself but I guess I just needed to put myself in front of the firing squad on this forum and hear it for myself. The problem IS too many docs in one office.

It is a total disaster. To add some more clarity, the spouse (partner) and I didn't always see eye to eye on decisions when it came to the business.
Too add even more clarity, we are now separated for 2 years and facing divorce.
The 70-80k wasn't too bad before when it was coming to the same household but now on single income, something has to change.
I could probably start a whole new thread on husband and wife owning and practicing in the same office.
I don't know if the spouse will eventually leave, and possibly the associate and I could partner up and buckle down?
I've also thought about leaving myself, but as I have confirmed on this very helpful network, there just aren't many options for our profession out there, especially in larger cities.
I don't want to become an associate in one of the PE owned super groups in our area and even if there was a rare hospital job opportunity, I feel I am past that point in life to take that on and there are better qualified younger DPM's
I put all my eggs in one basket and I'm essentially trapped right now.

 

[Slewfoot]

Yeah the assistant to the car wash a manger

Gotta go reference the Buccees sign again. I feel like half the list did better than 80k.

I just tried to apply to Buccees. Unfortunately they were just bought by a PE supergroup and are now only hiring fellowship trained orthoplastic surgeons. 🙁

 

[Adam Smasher]

I think you really hit the nail on the head when you break it down like that, essentially trading a larger % for a smaller %.
I believe there was some magical/wishful thinking involved back then combined with lack of experience owning a private practice.
The associate collects close to and earns close to about the same as I do. We were also too generous when we hired, giving a higher % than what is the standard going rate for associates in our area. The associate also does some supplemental podiatry work on the side, so no complaints from them so far.

When we opened however we were very fortunate to find a good location in our area that wasn't saturated and 2 other TFP's, a few miles away, were retiring. We have a strong referral base with several PCP's and primary care offices in our area, always seems to be new patients, the parking lot is full and the phone always ringing. We're not bad looking, out patient's love us and we get great google reviews.
I know 20 pts a day isn't too bad and kept thinking of ways to earn more with production or adding more clinic hours for myself but I guess I just needed to put myself in front of the firing squad on this forum and hear it for myself. The problem IS too many docs in one office.

It is a total disaster. To add some more clarity, the spouse (partner) and I didn't always see eye to eye on decisions when it came to the business.
Too add even more clarity, we are now separated for 2 years and facing divorce.
The 70-80k wasn't too bad before when it was coming to the same household but now on single income, something has to change.
I could probably start a whole new thread on husband and wife practicing owning and practicing in the same office.
I don't know if the spouse will eventually leave, and possibly the associate and I could partner up and buckle down?
I've also thought about leaving myself, but as I have confirmed on this very helpful network, there just aren't many options for our profession out there, especially in larger cities.
I don't want to become an associate in one of the PE owned super groups in our area and even if there was a rare hospital job opportunity, I feel I am past that point in life to take that on and there are better qualified younger DPM's
I put all my eggs in one basket and I'm essentially trapped right now.

We all want you to succeed. And I think you understand that the first step was admitting that you have a problem. The good news is you can only go up from here.

There are so many angles for business owners divorcing and parting ways. And I don't think that the family courts will appreciate how your incomes will change for the worse, as well as how the practice valuation goes down as a result of this dissolution. If you don't want a lot of your wealth to vanish completely, you and your spouse need to find a way to coexist peacefully. To paraphrase Ben Franlin, if you don't hang together, you will surely hang separately.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Actually, I just thought of this: If you and your spouse are truly toxic partners, and maybe that's what's holding the practice back, what you could do is liquidate the practice. Your associate would be a prime contender to buy it. Help them secure a business loan. But you have to do this prior to the divorce so that way the court doesn't have to get involved in asset valuation and you just split the proceeds from the sale. Then you and your spouse go your separate ways, and you use the proceeds to start new ventures elsewhere. Start off doing mobile podiatry work, then who knows, your future is full of possibilities.

 

[sdupre_apma]

Happy Friday everyone,
Bit of a change of topic here, but I had the opportunity to go on the Deans Chat podcast with Drs Jensen and Richey last night to talk about the compensation survey, about data needs in the profession, and about our team's plans for other data analyses we're working on. We even talked a little bit about the conversation from this forum thread. My understanding is that it should be up and available pretty soon if people are curious.
Warmly,
Sam

 

[air bud]

Happy Friday everyone,
Bit of a change of topic here, but I had the opportunity to go on the Deans Chat podcast with Drs Jensen and Richey last night to talk about the compensation survey, about data needs in the profession, and about our team's plans for other data analyses we're working on. We even talked a little bit about the conversation from this forum thread. My understanding is that it should be up and available pretty soon if people are curious.
Warmly,
Sam

If you didn't plug the meme thread then this is a FAIL

 

[eyeeye_captain]

And yes, I'm fully aware how punchable my official headshot makes me look. So eminently punchable.

If you think so, next time, hands up, tuck the chin.

Somehow I’ve never seen an orbital fracture from a kick, so I think you’re safe from your daughter.

Given the field, you should go with a mustache on the retake too.

 

[air bud]

So the new Marit numbers.....came down

 

[Mia McBhul]

Well call me Mr. Magoo

I pay board dues. That’s it. No other memberships.

ok. "MR. MAGOO!!!"

 

[sdupre_apma]

So the new Marit numbers.....came down

Sure did. I've talked about this before, but all entities like Glass Door, Indeed, Marit, etc., have built-in validation mechanisms that check for false data being entered into the system for whatever reason. Those entries get flagged for automatic extra processing in some companies and for full manual processing at Marit.

APMA and Marit both feel strongly that we want the results of this compensation survey to be accurate and reflective of the profession, both at the high compensation ends and at the low. As part of that, the Marit team has been going through every single submitted record which was initially flagged as potentially false due to data extremes or logically implausible combinations of conditions. APMA doesn't have access to the individual records, so I'm not aware of their full process, but from what's been described big-picture, Marit has frankly gone way above and beyond in digging into each case and validating that data. They have recently completed this intensive re-validation and based on those new cases, a batch of 50 to 80ish (to make a vaguely plausible number up on the spot) results have been added to the body of data which were initially flagged as potentially questionable.

I know I keep saying this, but I, Marit, (and APMA in general) truly do want this data to be reflective of the profession and made available to DPMs in a way that is accurate and usable.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

The number of responses, plus the vetting, is pretty cool.

When I look at retina on Marit, it’s <1.5% of our cohort. I’ve done our entire wage distribution in a 4-5 year period before. Our median is what a supergroup associate makes in year 2-3. All that to say you folks are probably getting a clearer picture.

Sam may as well be speaking Martian when he starts going over the methods. Plus lies, damned lies, etc., but I like the cut of his jib.

 

[Weirdy]

As much flack as we give StatsBro, the more data (both low and high end) that gets inputted, the more accurate it is.
Hard part is getting low end beginning associates like me to voluntarily plug in our numbers without feeling emasculated (already plugged mine in).

That's a personal issue

Be the change you want to be- or some %&*^ like that - but more data = better.

 

[Adam Smasher]

If pod students can post here about flunking APMLE without embarrassment, associates can report their $80,000 salary in the survey

 

[Hoos2004]

Yes, thanks for sharing this. This is Rob - the Anesthesiologist founder of Marit. To give a bit more context on our moderation process, we run every submission through an algorithm that looks at a number of factors, like salary ranges, wRVUs, collections percentages, and more. In general, more than 90% of submissions are accepted right away, a small % are rejected, and the rest go into a “pending” queue that I manually review daily. In some of those pending cases I reach out to the physician to clarify a few details so we can make sure there were no errors in the submission.

As part of preparing this survey report, we went back through the submissions and manually re-reviewed them. In doing so, we found that ~30 submissions had been incorrectly marked as rejected. Many of these were on the lower end of the compensation range, so once they were added back in, the averages came down by about 2%. My apologies for missing this earlier, but I am glad we did this deeper review so that the final results better reflect the actual market.

Thanks again to everyone who participated. Reading through the submissions, especially the optional notes that came with them, it’s clear how much effort people put into adding real context to their compensation. Anesthesiology and Podiatry are now the two most developed data sets on Marit. While I am not as close to the nuances of Podiatry compensation, I can say that the Anesthesiology data on Marit is more robust and detailed than anything else I’ve seen, and I’m hopeful the Podiatry data feels the same.

We’ve been working closely with the APMA team on the final report and findings, and really appreciate all the statistical rigor Sam has been applying to the findings. Excited to share the final report with everyone in the coming weeks.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Sure did. I've talked about this before, but all entities like Glass Door, Indeed, Marit, etc., have built-in validation mechanisms that check for false data being entered into the system for whatever reason. Those entries get flagged for automatic extra processing in some companies and for full manual processing at Marit.

APMA and Marit both feel strongly that we want the results of this compensation survey to be accurate and reflective of the profession, both at the high compensation ends and at the low. As part of that, the Marit team has been going through every single submitted record which was initially flagged as potentially false due to data extremes or logically implausible combinations of conditions. APMA doesn't have access to the individual records, so I'm not aware of their full process, but from what's been described big-picture, Marit has frankly gone way above and beyond in digging into each case and validating that data. They have recently completed this intensive re-validation and based on those new cases, a batch of 50 to 80ish (to make a vaguely plausible number up on the spot) results have been added to the body of data which were initially flagged as potentially questionable.

I know I keep saying this, but I, Marit, (and APMA in general) truly do want this data to be reflective of the profession and made available to DPMs in a way that is accurate and usable.

Then why are you separating surgical podiatrist data from non surgical podiatrist salary data? This is rather deceiving. We are all podiatrists. Not everyone can do every single surgery possible in the foot and ankle and do complex things. These podiatrists will make more typically. Especially in a hospital employed position.

There are many podiatrists who clip toenails and due forefoot work. Maybe some wound care. They can make a very good living but they are not raking in over 500K either if they are accurately billing.

If the APMA is truly interested in being transparent and have better recruitment then the salary data figures need to be merged as this is the most TRANSPARENT AND ACCURATE demonstration of our profession's possible earning potential.

The Marit data will force the APMA to look within itself. I hope this puts pressure on podiatry schools as well. They charge astronomical tuition figures when graduates have a statistically low chance of making the salary they need to pay it off.

I want ROI to improve in podiatry. If it was cheaper to go through podiatry education and training then it makes the profession more enticing. It's common sense. Having comparable tuition costs to MD/DO with less chance of high earning and way less job flexibility and security is what is really sinking this profession. Prospective students are not stupid.

Let's stop lying to ourselves.

 

[sdupre_apma]

Then why are you separating surgical podiatrist data from non surgical podiatrist salary data? This is rather deceiving. We are all podiatrists. Not everyone can do every single surgery possible in the foot and ankle and do complex things. These podiatrists will make more typically. Especially in a hospital employed position.

There are many podiatrists who clip toenails and due forefoot work. Maybe some wound care. They can make a very good living but they are not raking in over 500K either if they are accurately billing.

If the APMA is truly interested in being transparent and have better recruitment then the salary data figures need to be merged as this is the most TRANSPARENT AND ACCURATE demonstration of our profession's possible earning potential.

The Marit data will force the APMA to look within itself. I hope this puts pressure on podiatry schools as well. They charge astronomical tuition figures when graduates have a statistically low chance of making the salary they need to pay it off.

I want ROI to improve in podiatry. If it was cheaper to go through podiatry education and training then it makes the profession more enticing. It's common sense. Having comparable tuition costs to MD/DO with less chance of high earning and way less job flexibility and security is what is really sinking this profession. Prospective students are not stupid.

Let's stop lying to ourselves.

I mean, sure. I agree with you in many ways. You’re arguing against something that we’re not doing.

APMA is not planning on separating self identification of surgical v. non-surgical for the metrics that are being reported in this upcoming release.

Marit does in their dashboard, but that’s their site and their materials. They’ve mentioned some good reasons for doing so in our initial talks, they may change the display, they may not, I can’t speak for them.

We may, down the line, put together a look at compensation differences between different areas of the profession in terms of routine foot care versus surgical care, but probably not for now. Even if a reporting of median compensation by those who self report as surgical or not does get included, it would definitely not get broken down further than that or used for more than a brief mention (with all appropriate caveats).

To your point, every breakdown we do of the data, every extra slice, reduces what is basically our effective sample size for each of those new slices. I would far rather look at things like being employed in a hospital or not as a key breakdown versus using self-determination as surgical or not for a fundamental survey disaggregation. Knowing how many people see themselves in a routine foot care role versus a more surgical role is a useful data point to know and interpret with full context, but it wouldn’t be appropriate to use the breakdown (that you don’t want us to use anyway) for the main reporting.

So… in short, no worries! I think I’ve mentioned this topic before, but apologies if I gave you the impression that it was going to be reported that way.
Warmly,
Sam

EDIT: apparently I can’t even spell my own name. Strong work “San”