Application season has started! Goro's guide to the app process

[Omppu27]

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Goro, is late June submission of AACOMAS primary considered early for DO Schools?

I want to get my AMCAS submitted before working on my AACOMAS.

When do you plan on getting your AMCAS submitted? If you're doing it this week there is no reason why AACOMAS should take very long... There aren't any major differences.

EDIT: Also, think about getting your transcript for AACOMAS taken care of soon if you can. If you decide to send it via the mail, you wanna make sure it gets there in a timely fashion.

 

[bluebillion]

this makes me feel terrible about my 34 mcat with aspirations for high ranked schools 🙁 lol

but thank you for writing this, incredibly helpful

 

[About28]

this makes me feel terrible about my 34 mcat with aspirations for high ranked schools 🙁 lol

but thank you for writing this, incredibly helpful

I got a 34 as well and thought I was really cool and stuff. Then I found SDN and all of a sudden my 34 isn't so cool anymore.

 

[Bovary]

For schools that require non science rec letters, is that requirement absolute i.e. Penn state? I don't have any non-science letters (only science ones: 1 from PI, 1 from community service, 3 from science professors). SHould I still apply to schools that want non-science letters? I called the admissions office for penn state and they just said they can't tell me to apply or not...

I second this question.

For what it's worth, Harvard admissions told me that their requirement of a letter from all past PIs is more of a recommendation. I suspect that LOR requirements are somewhat flexible but it likely depends on the school.

 

[Sean Lee]

When do you plan on getting your AMCAS submitted? If you're doing it this week there is no reason why AACOMAS should take very long... There aren't any major differences.

EDIT: Also, think about getting your transcript for AACOMAS taken care of soon if you can. If you decide to send it via the mail, you wanna make sure it gets there in a timely fashion.

Thanks.

AACOMAS has already received 2/3 of my transcripts. But AMCAS only received 1/3 so far.

 

[Sean Lee]

I am also rewriting my personal statement for AACOMAS, to tailor it towards osteopathic medicine

 

[gettheleadout]

this makes me feel terrible about my 34 mcat with aspirations for high ranked schools 🙁 lol

but thank you for writing this, incredibly helpful

I got a 34 as well and thought I was really cool and stuff. Then I found SDN and all of a sudden my 34 isn't so cool anymore.

Guys/gals, keep in mind that many, many students at top schools had 34's or 33's or even less, and a 34 by no means excludes you from Duke, or Johns Hopkins, or Mayo, or Vandy, or Northwestern, or even those with higher averages. (Also be careful to note that the MSAR's data for acceptees should be interpreted differently from US News' data on matriculants.)

 

[Lamel]

Guys/gals, keep in mind that many, many students at top schools had 34's or 33's or even less, and a 34 by no means excludes you from Duke, or Johns Hopkins, or Mayo, or Vandy, or Northwestern, or even those with higher averages. (Also be careful to note that the MSAR's data for acceptees should be interpreted differently from US News' data on matriculants.)

Does this apply to the school's individual median MCAT or just the nationwide median? I've been reading around and it seems the MSAR's 33 median is "inflated" due to multiple acceptances. But how accurate are the MCAT medians posted for each school (i.e. NYU is 36).

 

[Sean Lee]

Is a balanced 33 considered strong at mid-tier schools?

 

[Lamel]

Is a balanced 33 considered strong at mid-tier schools?

Mid-tier is kind of vague. It would be considered strong at a college where it is above the median. Ohio State is mid-tier but the average there is a 35. Albert Einstein is a mid-tier but the average there is 33. It depends.

 

[gettheleadout]

Does this apply to the school's individual median MCAT or just the nationwide median? I've been reading around and it seems the MSAR's 33 median is "inflated" due to multiple acceptances. But how accurate are the MCAT medians posted for each school (i.e. NYU is 36).

You've got the right idea about the MSAR's national median, but the problem with the school medians is a bit different. The issue with calculating a median MCAT for applicants accepted to a school is that schools tend to offer acceptances to higher stat applicants more often, and on top of that, schools accept more applicants than actually enter their classes by a large margin. Consider the case where an applicant with an MCAT score in the 40's gets in to 10 schools. This applicant only attends one in the end, but the MSAR calculates the median accepted MCAT score by including that applicant's score for all 10 schools. In reality, especially since higher stat applicants are more likely to have more acceptances (but still only attend one school in the end) and thus their scores contribute to more schools' accepted-MCAT-medians, these medians in the MSAR are (typically) skewed above the schools' matriculated applicant medians. The school essentially is its students, and if the school accepts a bunch of high stat applicants but most of them go elsewhere, then while their accepted median MCAT may be a 37, the median score for students actually attending may be 34. For applicants this means that evaluating your score against the median for the school's students (i.e. the matriculated MCAT median) is arguably more meaningful than looking at the median for all applicants the school accepted.

Edit: For NYU, the accepted medians are 3.86 and 36, but the matriculated medians are 3.83 and 35.

 

[Sean Lee]

Mid-tier is kind of vague. It would be considered strong at a college where it is above the median. Ohio State is mid-tier but the average there is a 35. Albert Einstein is a mid-tier but the average there is 33. It depends.

Thanks. I am mostly focusing on the "low" tiers and newer schools. So a 33 should be strong for those schools.

 

[Lamel]

You've got the right idea about the MSAR's national median, but the problem with the school medians is a bit different. The issue with calculating a median MCAT for applicants accepted to a school is that schools tend to offer acceptances to higher stat applicants more often, and on top of that, schools accept more applicants than actually enter their classes by a large margin. Consider the case where an applicant with an MCAT score in the 40's gets in to 10 schools. This applicant only attends one in the end, but the MSAR calculating the median accepted MCAT score by including that applicant's score for all 10 schools. In reality, especially since higher stat applicants are more likely to have more acceptances (but still only attend one school in the end) and thus their scores contribute to more schools' accepted-MCAT-medians, these medians in the MSAR are (typically) skewed above the schools' matriculated applicant medians. The school essentially is its students, and if the school accepts a bunch of high stat applicants but most of them go elsewhere, then while their accepted median MCAT may be a 37, the median score for students actually attending may be 34. For applicants this means that evaluating your score against the median for the school's students (i.e. the matriculated MCAT median) is arguably more meaningful than looking at the median for all applicants the school accepted.

Edit: For NYU, the accepted medians are 3.9 and 36, but the matriculated medians are 3.83 and 35.

I had a sense something like this was going on. Very informative, thank you. By the way, where are you getting the matriculant data from?

Thanks. I am mostly focusing on the "low" tiers and newer schools. So a 33 should be strong for those schools.

Yeah I understand its tough to make the school list. You should look at MSAR and apply to schools that you are around the median stats wise, you don't only need to focus on low tier or new schools.

 

[gettheleadout]

I had a sense something like this was going on. Very informative, thank you. By the way, where are you getting the matriculant data from?

Matriculant data is available from US News online. Also I had to search a bit in the MSAR to find the two-decimal median GPA at NYU, I've edited my last post.

 

[NYerrr]

+1

 

[lmn]

For schools that require non science rec letters, is that requirement absolute i.e. Penn state? I don't have any non-science letters (only science ones: 1 from PI, 1 from community service, 3 from science professors). SHould I still apply to schools that want non-science letters? I called the admissions office for penn state and they just said they can't tell me to apply or not...

I don't remember the specifics for penn state's letters, but I didn't have a non-science professor (as in someone I took a non-sci class with) and received an II.

 

[NYerrr]

+

 

[hoihaie]

For schools that require non science rec letters, is that requirement absolute i.e. Penn state? I don't have any non-science letters (only science ones: 1 from PI, 1 from community service, 3 from science professors). SHould I still apply to schools that want non-science letters? I called the admissions office for penn state and they just said they can't tell me to apply or not...

I believe Drexel and New York Med have the same non-science LOR requirement as well. Have you called either of those admissions offices? That is such an odd answer from Penn State, guess they don't want to be too absolute in their answer.

I called NYMC and all i got were answering machine messages.... they didnt have an option to talk to admin rep. Drexel never picked up for me..

 

[About28]

Guys/gals, keep in mind that many, many students at top schools had 34's or 33's or even less, and a 34 by no means excludes you from Duke, or Johns Hopkins, or Mayo, or Vandy, or Northwestern, or even those with higher averages. (Also be careful to note that the MSAR's data for acceptees should be interpreted differently from US News' data on matriculants.)

I think a 34 is like 95th percentile but damn, I feel like that entire upper 5% is on sdn

 

[Goro]

Yup, plenty early.
Goro, is late June submission of AACOMAS primary considered early for DO Schools? I want to get my AMCAS submitted before working on my AACOMAS.


Watch out for the MCAT VR reading comprehension section. Required means "required". In the absolute worst case scenario, you can always go take a non-science course at a local CC, chat the prof, and then ask him/her to write a LOR.
For schools that require non science rec letters, is that requirement absolute i.e. Penn state? I don't have any non-science letters (only science ones: 1 from PI, 1 from community service, 3 from science professors). SHould I still apply to schools that want non-science letters? I called the admissions office for penn state and they just said they can't tell me to apply or not...

So when you interview at Drexel and you're asked "Why Drexel and not X?" you'll just fumble around for an answer? Just say "it's a medical school"? You should be able to articulate an answer to anything you're prompted for. Even if the answer is "it's a great school". Why is it a great school? Come up with A, B, C...
I meant that it seems pointless to explain to Drexel why you have *special* interest in their school i.e. more interest in their school than other schools if there truly isn't a significant difference between them and most other schools. And so going out of your way to try to appear specially interested in a school might not be a good strategy for a secondary essay unless it is specifically asking "why do you want to go to this specific school". And if they do ask that question, you are pretty much forced to give a general answer that could be recycled for many other schools.

Not that I'm aware of, but you can get a decent rule of thumb by applying the "LizzyM score" = GPA x 10 + MCAT score of matriculants, compared to yours. Do a search for it in these forums...you'll find it. I've noticed the higher the tier, the higher the numbers fo the matriculants, and the tighter the 10th-90th percentiles for these numbers. For example, with GPA, Rush's spread is 3.43-3.92, median at 3.7 (they're more forgiving for MCAT scores) while Harvard is 3.73-4.0, with median at 3.9! So Rush's LizzyM score is 68, while Harvard's is 76. FYI, DO schools have a huge overlaps in these scores with the 3rd tiers.
Is there a low-tier list someplace?

The anxiety level is certainly up there. However neurotic SDNers can be at times, I've found the vast majority of posters here to be quite altruistic and eager to help. In the pre-allo forum I see lots of respect for Osteopathy.

To me, a 34 is > avg, and is in striking distance of many mid-tiers, like, say, Dartmouth, where it's the avg score (!), Duke, or even NYU. Remember, MSAR Online IS your friend!

I think a 34 is like 95th percentile but damn, I feel like that entire upper 5% is on sdn

 

[ZezKaiEll]

Many schools send out secondaries whether you're competitive or not. They can be a tax on the hopelessly clueless, or over-optimistic.

A great point.

Thanks as always Goro.

 

[IL Pre Med]

Thanks for doing this Goro, I found it very helpful.

 

[lolcat]

i love you goro great work! quick question about being a reapplicant. i applied to some schools last year but didnt make it unfortunately. there were a couple secondaries i wasnt able to finish (swamped with work and ran out of time). i'm applying to those schools again so should i send an email explaining why i didnt complete the secondaries the first time around?

any help for me 🙂 not sure if im getting paranoid or not but those schools were on my top 3 list. didnt want to rush and turn in a poorly written secondary which is why i didnt do them.

 

[Czarcasm]

Does anyone know what time AMCAS submission opens? Is it usually congested? What information do I need when submitting? I have my application ready to go.

I tried calling AAMC but there's a 30 minute wait period. ...forget that.

 

[LaceyMD]

Does anyone know what time AMCAS submission opens? Is it usually congested? What information do I need when submitting? I have my application ready to go.

I tried calling AAMC but there's a 30 minute wait period. ...forget that.

I think it's 9:30am Eastern...but that came from another post, so it could be inaccurate. I don't think there's really any advantage to clicking submit the second it opens, you could just shoot for whenever you've got a few spare minutes tomorrow 🙂

 

[gettheleadout]

Does anyone know what time AMCAS submission opens? Is it usually congested? What information do I need when submitting? I have my application ready to go.

I tried calling AAMC but there's a 30 minute wait period. ...forget that.

I think it's 9:30am Eastern...but that came from another post, so it could be inaccurate. I don't think there's really any advantage to clicking submit the second it opens, you could just shoot for whenever you've got a few spare minutes tomorrow 🙂

It will indeed be opening at 9:30 am Eastern time tomorrow morning.

 

[orangeman25]

I know a lot of people are reading this thread so I thought id post a story I heard recently that inspired me.

A friend of mine with a 2.9 GPA and a 36 MCAT got into Vanderbilt this cycle. She was not URM and didn't have anything incredibly unique about her besides being a physics major. Amazing essays though and strong interviewer.

I think sometimes we get caught up in how stats determine where we will get an interview, or accepted. This was obviously a story where it's not the case. Sure, this is n=1, but you could be that 1! Or I could. I know the story is a little unbelievable but I swear it's true. She deserves to be a physician and I just wanted to share her story since the cycle begins tmro.

 

[Goro]

Sorry to bark, orangeman, but my BS detector is going off! Goro is skeptical. You "heard the story?" Do you know the person? Is this hearsay? A 2.9 would be autorejected at nearly every medical school, including DO programs.

People win the Lotto too, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and buy Lotto tickets.

I know a lot of people are reading this thread so I thought id post a story I heard recently that inspired me.

A friend of mine with a 2.9 GPA and a 36 MCAT got into Vanderbilt this cycle. She was not URM and didn't have anything incredibly unique about her besides being a physics major. Amazing essays though and strong interviewer.

I think sometimes we get caught up in how stats determine where we will get an interview, or accepted. This was obviously a story where it's not the case. Sure, this is n=1, but you could be that 1! Or I could. I know the story is a little unbelievable but I swear it's true. She deserves to be a physician and I just wanted to share her story since the cycle begins tmro.

 

[orangeman25]

Sorry to bark, orangeman, but my BS detector is going off! Goro is skeptical. You "heard the story?" Do you know the person? Is this hearsay? A 2.9 would be autorejected at nearly every medical school, including DO programs.

People win the Lotto too, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and buy Lotto tickets.

I promise I'm not lying! I don't have the time for that.

I heard it firsthand by her. I didn't actually see her transcript or AMCAS so I don't have proof but I did see her MCAT score. She technically could be lying but she's been a genuine friend.

I find it unbelievable myself. If this was a low tier school or something,it's more believable. But Vanderbilt?! Wow. But truly if things like this actually happen, I just wanted to share.

Edit: she also went to Vanderbilt for undergrad. Minutiae,, but still

 

[dudewheresmymd]

@Goro When you say lost to homesickness... do you mean they died?

 

[moop]

I promise I'm not lying! I don't have the time for that.

I heard it firsthand by her. I didn't actually see her transcript or AMCAS so I don't have proof but I did see her MCAT score. She technically could be lying but she's been a genuine friend.

I find it unbelievable myself. If this was a low tier school or something,it's more believable. But Vanderbilt?! Wow. But truly if things like this actually happen, I just wanted to share.

Edit: she also went to Vanderbilt for undergrad. Minutiae,, but still

Nope that's not trivia...the self-favoring of a school's own undergrads makes the story more believable.

 

[Goro]

Nope, dropped out of school.

@Goro When you say lost to homesickness... do you mean they died?

 

[el_duderino]

Sorry to bark, orangeman, but my BS detector is going off! Goro is skeptical. You "heard the story?" Do you know the person? Is this hearsay? A 2.9 would be autorejected at nearly every medical school, including DO programs.

People win the Lotto too, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and buy Lotto tickets.

I was accepted this year to an MD program with a 2.8/35. I am a very non-trad with kind of a unique story, some tenuous connections to the school (though I got interviewed at another MD program as well), but it still happened.

I was extremely, extremely lucky to get accepted and I am extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity. But still too bad for all the other programs that didn't accept me because I'm going to crush it.

 

[Spinach Dip]

I know a lot of people are reading this thread so I thought id post a story I heard recently that inspired me.

A friend of mine with a 2.9 GPA and a 36 MCAT got into Vanderbilt this cycle. She was not URM and didn't have anything incredibly unique about her besides being a physics major. Amazing essays though and strong interviewer.

I think sometimes we get caught up in how stats determine where we will get an interview, or accepted. This was obviously a story where it's not the case. Sure, this is n=1, but you could be that 1! Or I could. I know the story is a little unbelievable but I swear it's true. She deserves to be a physician and I just wanted to share her story since the cycle begins tmro.

There are exceptions to every rule. I say congratulations to your friend, but don't expect this sort of thing to be normal or frequent.



Every day, someone wins the lottery. That doesn't mean that everyone will win the lottery someday.

 

[Goro]

Ahh, I think I have it now...you must have had a 4.0 from from disastrous 1st or 2nd year? Or did a post-bac/SMP and aced that? I forget that a spectacular reinvention might not rescue a cGPA, but many schools look at the last 2-3 years, adn so that migth explain the 2.9 Vabndy acceptee.

Jonny, would you mind sharing your story? You can PM me if you like. Unique stories are those "compelling stories" I referred to that explain people with <10%tile numbers.

I was accepted this year to an MD program with a 2.8/35. I am a very non-trad with kind of a unique story, some tenuous connections to the school (though I got interviewed at another MD program as well), but it still happened.

I was extremely, extremely lucky to get accepted and I am extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity. But still too bad for all the other programs that didn't accept me because I'm going to crush it.

 

[NYCdude]

@Goro

Are you saying that as long as your numbers are above the 10th percentile for GPA and MCAT, you'd recommend applying to that school? Or that your application simply won't get screened out?

 

[whoisclu]

Hey I was wondering about my PS. I've written about my upward trend from my first two years, a cumulative 2.9 going into Junior year then getting 4.0's (AMCAS actually 3.8 and 3.9) to bring it up to a 3.457 at an Ivy League institution, but I've included it in a bigger theme of self improvement.

Will this come off as trying to explain bad grades?

Additionally, how much does an upward trend help out? I figure it's treated differently by school, but is there an equivalent GPA I can go off of?

• Don't use your PS to explain why you got bad grades. It's for "Who are you?", for "Why Medicine?" and how you got to that decision.
• Do NOT write in your PS or secondary about what you think we want to see...write about your passions and what drives you. Write about what makes you interesting.

 

[Skatoodles]

Thanks for the great post.

 

[moop]

@Goro

Are you saying that as long as your numbers are above the 10th percentile for GPA and MCAT, you'd recommend applying to that school? Or that your application simply won't get screened out?

The two amount to the same thing on your end of the decision-making, so it makes no difference for your interpretation. If you're at the 20th percentile for a school, there is no telling only by GPA/MCAT if you'll get in, since obviously a fifth of the school has your stats, so it's all about the rest of the package. But yes, the decision he is telling you is to apply if you satisfy that criterion.

 

[Goro]

It depends upon the school. Some have very wide 10-90 numbers, but they may also have very high medians. My advice is that if you numbers are 4 points below the median, not to apply. It's your call. Three points below? Worth a shot.

Also keep in mind that many schools like strong rising trends. Americans love a come-from-behind story. After hearing from some of you, I've learned that a strict number may not be so strict. So on the surface a 3.2 might not be competitive at, say, Vanderbilt, but if the person was 4.0 for the last 90 hrs of his/her schooling, following a disaster of a freshman year, then that person may indeed be a very good candidate. But if you were a solid 83% student all the way through, I suspect

Are you saying that as long as your numbers are above the 10th percentile for GPA and MCAT, you'd recommend applying to that school? Or that your application simply won't get screened out?[/QUOTE]

It will depend upon how it's worded.
Hey I was wondering about my PS. I've written about my upward trend from my first two years, a cumulative 2.9 going into Junior year then getting 4.0's (AMCAS actually 3.8 and 3.9) to bring it up to a 3.457 at an Ivy League institution, but I've included it in a bigger theme of self improvement. Will this come off as trying to explain bad grades?

See my comments above. My rought rule of thumb: A or A- grades for at least four semesters, plus an above avg (>33) MCAT
Additionally, how much does an upward trend help out? I figure it's treated differently by school, but is there an equivalent GPA I can go off of?

 

[NYCdude]

The two amount to the same thing on your end of the decision-making, so it makes no difference for your interpretation. If you're at the 20th percentile for a school, there is no telling only by GPA/MCAT if you'll get in, since obviously a fifth of the school has your stats, so it's all about the rest of the package. But yes, the decision he is telling you is to apply if you satisfy that criterion.

That definitely makes sense. Thanks for the input!

 

[NYCdude]

It depends upon the school. Some have very wide 10-90 numbers, but they may also have very high medians. My advice is that if you numbers are 4 points below the median, not to apply. It's your call. Three points below? Worth a shot.

Also keep in mind that many schools like strong rising trends. Americans love a come-from-behind story. After hearing from some of you, I've learned that a strict number may not be so strict. So on the surface a 3.2 might not be competitive at, say, Vanderbilt, but if the person was 4.0 for the last 90 hrs of his/her schooling, following a disaster of a freshman year, then that person may indeed be a very good candidate. But if you were a solid 83% student all the way through, I suspect

Are you saying that as long as your numbers are above the 10th percentile for GPA and MCAT, you'd recommend applying to that school? Or that your application simply won't get screened out?

Thanks for the response, Goro. When you say "4 points" do you mean like comparing a GPA of 3.3 to a median of 3.7? Or are you referring to the MCAT?

 

[Goro]

Yup...3.4 vs 3.8 median for GPA, and say, MCAT of 32 vs median of 36.

Thanks for the response, Goro. When you say "4 points" do you mean like comparing a GPA of 3.3 to a median of 3.7? Or are you referring to the MCAT?

 

[juliuspepperwood]

Yup...3.4 vs 3.8 median for GPA, and say, MCAT of 32 vs median of 36.

How does a 3.4 come across when my "senior" year GPA is a 3.8+ with over 125 hours?

 

[henry ian]

Hey guys new to this thread and a little confused (need some clarification). Thanks in advance to answers

Regarding the personal statements, when do you actually submit them? You're not referring to the final essay on the AMCAS application, right?

 

[juliuspepperwood]

Hey guys new to this thread and a little confused (need some clarification). Thanks in advance to answers

Regarding the personal statements, when do you actually submit them? You're not referring to the final essay on the AMCAS application, right?

Yes, that is the personal statement.

 

[henry ian]

Yes, that is the personal statement.

that really helps a lot, man. really appreciate it

 

[NYCdude]

Yup...3.4 vs 3.8 median for GPA, and say, MCAT of 32 vs median of 36.

Gotcha. Thanks again, super informative.

 

[juliuspepperwood]

that really helps a lot, man. really appreciate it

?
It directly answers your question. Yes, the personal statement is referring to the final essay on the AMCAS, so it would of course be submitted with the AMCAS.

 

[henry ian]

?
It directly answers your question. Yes, the personal statement is referring to the final essay on the AMCAS, so it would of course be submitted with the AMCAS.

i wasnt being sarcastic LOL i was so confused and your response helped confirm what i expected