Apply according to which MCAT score?

[Nietzschelover]

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I can imagine @confusedanddazed feeling confused and dazed by visiting this thread

It's simple. His 39 isn't a 39. He has a 34 that isn't just a regular 34, but like a special 34, but still a 34.

 

[gyngyn]

Clearly this is true in terms of practice as you have cautioned. So what about giving the re-taker "credit" for something different than more forgiveness on the averaging issue? How about the ability to actually hit the higher target? How about those core competencies like perseverance and resiliency? Determination? Responding to setbacks and disappointments?

It's in the eye of the beholder. I recommend against betting on generosity. Perseverance is not a core competency.

 

[confusedanddazed]

For what it's worth, my first MCAT score was with the old MCAT and my new score is with the new MCAT - I took the new one 3 years after the first. I honestly think that my score difference is due to the new version of the MCAT focusing more on my strengths. I can't honestly say that I changed my studying strategy or did anything unique or different or that i messed up the first time (i came out of that exam feeling like i did fine).

I too was surprised to see that I had scored so high, and based on this discussion, i'm feel as though my much higher score is hurting me more than helping me, which is disappointing. I retook the MCAT because i felt i could do better with the new format and i did, and now i feel like i'm being penalized for it. would adcoms more weigh my new MCAT score more heavily since it was 3 years after my last attempt and based on the new exam? it's not like i retook the exam after 3 months and scored 10 points higher.

i followed the advice of the forum to retake only if i felt i could score 3+ points higher on a retake, and i did. but i ended up scoring better than expected (to the point of near impossibility, as it seems from this conversation) and now i'm super confused about making a proper school list.

i appreciate the discussion - thx a lot, lots to think about.

 

[Nietzschelover]

It's in the eye of the beholder. I recommend against betting on generosity. Perseverance is not a core competency.

Ah, my "like" from @gyngyn was short-lived. Still, though, it's there....forever! I was thinking earlier today about asking someone to "like" one of my posts that I wanted to like but couldn't lol.

I bet I kind find a competency for which perseverance is close cousin, but the corrections are welcome. If there's room for a 2nd score to be diminished then there should be room to see a couple of good things too. What should a first-time 28/29 do? Not do a re-take? Wait until they can hit a 42 to end up with a 35/36?

 

[gyngyn]

I bet I kind find a competency for which perseverance is close cousin, but the corrections are welcome. If there's room for a 2nd score to be diminished then there should be room to see a couple of good things too. What should a first-time 28/29 do? Not do a re-take? Wait until they can hit a 42 to end up with a 35/36?

I'll bet not. It's too close to a lot of behaviors we are screening out...

 

[Nietzschelover]

For what it's worth, my first MCAT score was with the old MCAT and my new score is with the new MCAT - I took the new one 3 years after the first. I honestly think that my score difference is due to the new version of the MCAT focusing more on my strengths. I can't honestly say that I changed my studying strategy or did anything unique or different or that i messed up the first time (i came out of that exam feeling like i did fine).

I too was surprised to see that I had scored so high, and based on this discussion, i'm feel as though my much higher score is hurting me more than helping me, which is disappointing. I retook the MCAT because i felt i could do better with the new format and i did, and now i feel like i'm being penalized for it. would adcoms more weigh my new MCAT score more heavily since it was 3 years after my last attempt and based on the new exam? it's not like i retook the exam after 3 months and scored 10 points higher.

i followed the advice of the forum to retake only if i felt i could score 3+ points higher on a retake, and i did. but i ended up scoring better than expected (to the point of near impossibility, as it seems from this conversation) and now i'm super confused about making a proper school list.

i appreciate the discussion - thx a lot, lots to think about.

I feel for you. It's a shame, a real shame. People re-take to improve their lot, and then learn they've almost done themselves in. You actually will be fine because your 34/35 will still serve you just fine if you choose the right schools.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'll bet not. It's too close to a lot of behaviors we are screening out...

Like what?

 

[gyngyn]

Like what?

I'll bet you can guess.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'll bet you can guess.

You are as stingy on this re-take issue as I am persistent. We're talking about re-takes so I guess most things and replies are going make sure re-takers still have a cloud of negative perceptions hanging over them. If "perseverance" came up in a Veterans thread I'm guessing your knee-jerk reaction would be a little different.

 

[gyngyn]

You are as stingy on this re-take issue as I am persistent. We're talking about re-takes so I guess most things and replies are going make sure re-takers still have a cloud of negative perceptions hanging over them. If "perseverance" came up in a Veterans thread I'm guessing your knee-jerk reaction would be a little different.

I would give a vet my best advice, just as I have given here.

 

[Lawpy]

It's simple. His 39 isn't a 39. He has a 34 that isn't just a regular 34, but like a special 34, but still a 34.

Somehow, that sounds as if it's a bad thing. Or maybe it's due to the generally negative tone in this thread...

For what it's worth, my first MCAT score was with the old MCAT and my new score is with the new MCAT - I took the new one 3 years after the first. I honestly think that my score difference is due to the new version of the MCAT focusing more on my strengths. I can't honestly say that I changed my studying strategy or did anything unique or different or that i messed up the first time (i came out of that exam feeling like i did fine).

I too was surprised to see that I had scored so high, and based on this discussion, i'm feel as though my much higher score is hurting me more than helping me, which is disappointing. I retook the MCAT because i felt i could do better with the new format and i did, and now i feel like i'm being penalized for it. would adcoms more weigh my new MCAT score more heavily since it was 3 years after my last attempt and based on the new exam? it's not like i retook the exam after 3 months and scored 10 points higher.

i followed the advice of the forum to retake only if i felt i could score 3+ points higher on a retake, and i did. but i ended up scoring better than expected (to the point of near impossibility, as it seems from this conversation) and now i'm super confused about making a proper school list.

i appreciate the discussion - thx a lot, lots to think about.

Follow what @gonnif and @LizzyM recommended and you should be fine. The discussion right now is tangential.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I get that a re-take is in fact treated negatively. I think it's wrong. For a 21 or 22 year old who has gone through the rigors of pre-med, volunteered, conducted research, etc, etc to get into med school I think one test going OK or just below OK [but above AAMC guidelines] being something that could keep someone out is just wrong. Now if that is her ceiling and they can't get more than a point or two higher on multiple re-takes I get it. But if someone can earn a much more competitive score then I think the penalty all things considered is just too heavy.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Objectively, the Step 1 is a one shot test. Doing badly on that screws your chances for the best residencies and unlike the MCAT you cannot retake (unless you get under 2%).

Additionally, giving the first MCAT score more weight offers schools another way to sift through the 2,000+ applicants who score a 37+. Statistics don't show much difference in medical school success between a 35 and 37, yet medical schools select between them anyway because there are so many students to choose from.

That said, I believe a 39 can only help your chances, retake or not.

 

[Lawpy]

Objectively, the Step 1 is a one shot test. Doing badly on that screws your chances for the best residencies and unlike the MCAT you cannot retake (unless you get under 2%).

A small concern/question to @gyngyn and other attendings/residents/adcoms here since this situation is repeated consistently for all MCAT retake threads.

I don't understand this direct comparison between Step exams and MCAT. The two exams are used for entirely different purposes in under different circumstances. They test different skills. Medical schools are heavily invested in your success in MS1 and MS2 (and really throughout your education). They want to make sure you destroy the Step exams no matter what. It's a one-shot deal because you can't afford to lose clinical time. There are severe repercussions if you fail/retake. This is why with such rigorous support, MS2s only need a 4-6 week study period to do well on Step 1.

The MCAT is drastically different. There is hardly a support system. People can take the MCAT when they are ready after studying for months with infinite resources. There are no deadlines to meet (assuming they planned their time well). The consequences of failing are bad, yes, but not remotely close to severe as outright failing a medical board exam. So the argument/implication that the MCAT should be a one-shot deal because Step 1 is a one-shot deal doesn't really make sense.

However, to make it clear, I agree that it is of best interest for everyone to take the MCAT once and do it well. It's the same for applying. Apply once in your best form. It's a waste of time, money, effort and stress to repeat the endeavor again.

 

[GrapesofRath]

It's a one-shot deal because you can't afford to lose clinical time. .

This is not the main reason they make Step 1 a one time thing at all. There are many ways of getting around potential concern of having to "lose 2-3 weeks to studying for a Step 1 retake" if that was deemed important.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Resilience and Adaptability: Demonstrates tolerance of stressful or changing environments or situations and adapts effectively to them; is persistent, even under difficult situations; recovers from setbacks.

Capacity for Improvement: Sets goals for continuous improvement and for learning new concepts and skills; engages in reflective practice for improvement; solicits and responds appropriately to feedback.

 

[Lawpy]

This is not the main reason they make Step 1 a one time thing at all. There are many ways of getting around potential concern of having to "lose 2-3 weeks to studying for a Step 1 retake" if that was deemed important.

What are the reasons then?

 

[qkhb]

For what it's worth, my first MCAT score was with the old MCAT and my new score is with the new MCAT - I took the new one 3 years after the first. I honestly think that my score difference is due to the new version of the MCAT focusing more on my strengths. I can't honestly say that I changed my studying strategy or did anything unique or different or that i messed up the first time (i came out of that exam feeling like i did fine).

I too was surprised to see that I had scored so high, and based on this discussion, i'm feel as though my much higher score is hurting me more than helping me, which is disappointing. I retook the MCAT because i felt i could do better with the new format and i did, and now i feel like i'm being penalized for it. would adcoms more weigh my new MCAT score more heavily since it was 3 years after my last attempt and based on the new exam? it's not like i retook the exam after 3 months and scored 10 points higher.

i followed the advice of the forum to retake only if i felt i could score 3+ points higher on a retake, and i did. but i ended up scoring better than expected (to the point of near impossibility, as it seems from this conversation) and now i'm super confused about making a proper school list.

i appreciate the discussion - thx a lot, lots to think about.

Thanks for jumping in here. I'm in a different but similar boat and I have the same confusion regarding a school list. I share a lot of your emotions.

I'll make a WAMC post about it in the future, but considering that this thread is relevant, can anyone provide a basic rule for what level of schools lopsided applicants should target? My MCAT scores are 515 and 523 (94th and 100th percentiles); my case is complicated by the fact that my GPA ~ 3.6.

 

[Lawpy]

Thanks for jumping in here. I'm in a different but boat and I have the same confusion regarding a school list. I share a lot of your emotions.

I'll make a WAMC post about it in the future, but considering that this thread is relevant, can anyone provide a basic rule for what level of schools lopsided applicants should target? My MCAT scores are 515 and 523 (94th and 100th percentiles); my case is complicated by the fact that my GPA ~ 3.6.

You apply as if your MCAT score were a 519 (which is a 37 on the old MCAT). That's a strong score since it matches the medians for top schools. With a 3.6 GPA, it's a tough call, but I'd wager it's safe bet to apply to mid and top tiers. The low tier schools are risky because they will view retaking a 515 as an unnecessary move and will yield protect you.

 

[confusedanddazed]

Thx to everyone for their thoughtful replies. I hope this thread can help others in my position.

In general, should I avoid applying to low tier medical schools that might screen me out because of my 39 (provided i have solid lors, extra curriculars, enough clinical exp, research)? I am worried about applying heavily to mid tier schools because even they seem like a crap shoot most of the time. aside from my first mcat score, i do feel like i could be a competitive applicant.

Maybe I'm putting too much weight on the mcat.......

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Thx to everyone for their thoughtful replies. I hope this thread can help others in my position.

In general, should I avoid applying to low tier medical schools that might screen me out because of my 39 (provided i have solid lors, extra curriculars, enough clinical exp, research)? I am worried about applying heavily to mid tier schools because even they seem like a crap shoot most of the time. aside from my first mcat score, i do feel like i could be a competitive applicant.

Maybe I'm putting too much weight on the mcat.......

You're overthinking this. You really can't predict which schools will be receptive to your score disparity, so it's best to apply broadly. You should get interviews at some mid-tiers and perhaps at a few of the upper tier programs.

Good luck!

 

[p0gono]

Wow, yet another confounding layer for trying to read MSAR ranges. Wonder how much the numbers would drop if they reported averages instead

Do MSAR stats include all entering MSTP students? Seems like another confounding factor. MSTP admissions is usually more numbers (MCAT) + research oriented, which would further skew schools with big programs like Wash U.

 

[Goro]

There is good evidence that poor MCAT performance is a risk factor for failing boards and failing out of med school. It's one of the few decent pre-med school predictors of med school performance.

@gyngyn and I have insider knowledge as to how our students do based upon their MCAT scores, and whether or not repeat performance affects outcomes. there's a good reason why we average. And no, I don't know why other schools like best composite scores. That's the least helpful, in my opinion.

I don't understand this direct comparison between Step exams and MCAT. The two exams are used for entirely different purposes in under different circumstances. They test different skills. Medical schools are heavily invested in your success in MS1 and MS2 (and really throughout your education). They want to make sure you destroy the Step exams no matter what. It's a one-shot deal because you can't afford to lose clinical time. There are severe repercussions if you fail/retake. This is why with such rigorous support, MS2s only need a 4-6 week study period to do well on Step 1.

 

[Nietzschelover]

just to put some reality to all this, the OCD nature of most premeds focus on a single aggregate number, whether it be their own GPA/MCAT or what potential med schools GPA/MCAT range without looking at their overall picture of themselves as an applicant. While schools will screen based on broad GPA/MCAT formula, making your application a concise, coherent and compelling narrative showing a strong pattern of motivation, commitment, and achievement, is what gets you an interview, even at reach schools. As a former admissions director at Stanford always says, if you don't ask, they cant say yes.

YES. One of the silliest patterns I see on the site is when a candidate announces an acceptance (or WL or rejection) on a school thread, and immediately the question comes "congrats, but would you mind sharing your stats and your complete date?", as though that info could in any way be gleaned to reflect something important on a personal level to the questioner.

 

[Goro]

It's not silly to inquire as to those thing in negative outcomes, because they can tell us two important things:
If the person applied late

If the person was shooting too high or unrealistically (like an OOS trying to get into U MS or Mercer.

Go look up what DDx stands for.

YES. One of the silliest patterns I see on the site is when a candidate announces an acceptance (or WL or rejection) on a school thread, and immediately the question comes "congrats, but would you mind sharing your stats and your complete date?", as though that info could in any way be gleaned to reflect something important on a personal level to the questioner.

 

[Nietzschelover]

It's not silly to inquire as to those thing in negative outcomes, because they can tell us two important things:
If the person applied late

If the person was shooting too high or unrealistically (like an OOS trying to get into U MS or Mercer.

Go look up what DDx stands for.

Maybe. I could see it more when people ask in Aug/Sept, but in Jan/Feb, when there is a huge sea of 3.7/32s who all were complete by August I have a hard seeing what special insight someone is going to be divined about why someone got a II or acceptance and someone else didn't. The reasons at that point may have very little (or nothing) to do with stats and complete date. Also, in theory, by Jan/Feb applicants have a pretty good idea about medians and schools that were poor choices based on OOS, low yield, mission, etc.

Now, what I do high empathize with is applicants who still don't have an acceptance and legitimately don't have good reasons to understand why other than feeling a vague doom about being on the wrong side of lotteries.

 

[Goro]

Again, look up what DDx stands for, and get out of the ivory tower more often.

Maybe. I could see it more when people ask in Aug/Sept, but in Jan/Feb, when there is a huge sea of 3.7/32s who all were complete by August I have a hard seeing what special insight someone is going to be divined about why someone got a II or acceptance and someone else didn't. The reasons at that point may have very little (or nothing) to do with stats and complete date. Also, in theory, by Jan/Feb applicants have a pretty good idea about medians and schools that were poor choices based on OOS, low yield, mission, etc.

Now, what I do high empathize with is applicants who still don't have an acceptance and legitimately don't have good reasons to understand why other than feeling a vague doom about being on the wrong side of lotteries.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Again, look up what DDx stands for, and get out of the ivory tower more often.

Stop making ridiculous assumptions. I get why people ask those questions in threads and I empathize with them. They're anxious. Their dreams are on the line and they are looking for any tea leaves that will get them insight into their plight and their chances for some good news during an incredibly stressful and anxiety-provoking period of their lives. Knowing when my complete date was probably isn't going to be the answer.

I'll be sure to let the mentally ill homeless, heroin addicts, victims of domestic violence, and families of all of the above know that I need to get out a little more.